RIAA sez no reselling preloaded iPods

So even though we've been good little boys and girls (well, for the last few years at least) and heeded the music industry's warning about downloading copyrighted tunes, according to the RIAA, we may still be in violation of the law every time we sell one of our old iPods without clearing the hard drive first. Now that DAPs have been around for several years, and Apple keeps tempting us with new models, the market for second-hand players is growing substantially, and folks are offering up their old units preloaded with gigs of music. While some lawyers contend that the law is a bit gray concerning this practice, the RIAA considers it piracy and has started working with eBay to warn sellers of the consequences they face. Luckily for us, the buyers of every 'Pod we've ever unloaded have pro-actively requested that the drives get wiped -- who knew that 60GB of Devo and Fugazi tracks would be so unpopular?

[Via iLounge]

[dreampc @ Feb 14th 2006 8:22AM]

That ruling won't stand... remember the RIAA is merely an organization... not the law.

If I purchase music and load it onto my Ipod, I can sell that music. It's an accepted form of conveyance and will stand the court system.

The RIAA are such fools... greedy hounds, trying to steal scraps for their members.

What about music from indie groups that GIVE away their mp3's?

[Trojan @ Feb 14th 2006 8:31AM]

It likely will stand. Because unlike selling a CD you purchased in a store, if you sell an iPod preloaded with music, you still have copies of the music. You have also made a copy, and distributed it, which is a clear violation of copyright law.

[Torontoguy @ Feb 14th 2006 8:59AM]

People are under the constant delusion that if they buy a CD then they OWN the music and can then do what they like with it.

Surprise!! You can't buy a CD; make copies of it and sell them on eBay...or on the street corner. This is nothing more than selling multiple copies of music that somebody ELSE owns.

[apeguero @ Feb 14th 2006 9:02AM]

What I don't understand is how this can actually stand at the courts.

iPods don't support drag and drop of music. The songs are sort of encrypted once they are synche'd into the iPod. They should not be easily accessible, right? The only way to gain access to them is by using some third party software which is not normally sold with the iPods. So, if I decide to sell my iPod without first wiping it out clean then all that makes me is a messy seller, not a bootlegger. The iPod was synche'd to my PC's music library and not the buyers.

So, really, the buyer shouldn't have access to that music. Actually, the first thing the iPod will do once the buyer plugs the iPod to their PC is say the libray in that iPod was synche'd to a different PC. and then ask if they want that iPod synche'd to their own PC then the music will be wiped. Right? So what is RIAA's fuc*ing case here? Someone needs to smack that motherfuc*ng company badly man!

Bullying like this will stand and probably be encouraged for at least the next couple of years. That's why we need change people. Remember, Big Business doesn't give a crap about you or I. It's all I have to say without getting political.

[Eric Warnke @ Feb 14th 2006 9:08AM]

It's generally accepted that you are in the clear ONLY if the sale price of blank data = the same price with random data = the same price with songs. In that way you are not generating a profit because of works you don't own. It's the same thing with used HD's and the like, you can sell it with data, OS, ... whatever, but if you advertise it then you are in violation.

If you don't advertise that there are songs on the unit, you are in the clear... but then you can't make a buck off your copyright infringement ( boo hoo ). It's the same reason "Backup" solutions are not infringing ( generally ) since they don't care if the stream of data is blank, the next great thesis, or your collection of pirated pron.

[Gridlock @ Feb 14th 2006 9:25AM]

That ruling won't stand... remember the RIAA is merely an organization... not the law.

Ha ha ha ha haaahahhahhahha.

*Falls over laughing*

Ha hahahahahahha.

Good one.

The RIAA and MPAA are the advance party of corporate lawmaking. You can't sell pre-loaded iPods. You can't re-sell DVDs. You have to buy the same movie 3 times if you have a PSP, DVD player and fancy HD-DVD in the near future.

We are sheep, consumers, margin opportunities. Get used to it.

[pete @ Feb 14th 2006 9:46AM]

what ruling are you guys talking about? a "ruling" comes from a court or administrative body. this is just the RIAA venting.

[boneyard @ Feb 14th 2006 9:55AM]

i really not find this weird, they wouldn't care so much if people just forget to wipe. but if you see advertisments made special with the fact they come pre loaded with a bunch of music it's clear it's done to earn to extra money made with something you aren't allowed to sell like this.

[Eric Warnke @ Feb 14th 2006 9:56AM]

RIAA may be evil, but they are correct. Selling an iPod and listing it's contents is illegal under copyright since the seller if profiting from someone else's work. It's no different from duping you entire music collection and selling them on the street corner.

Get over it.

[Christian @ Feb 14th 2006 10:07AM]

How exactly would they know if I swiped my iPod or not. Last time I checked goods were shiped directly to the consumer when using ebay. If The RIAA just happens to be the consumer recieving that iPod, considering that I only made money selling the iPod (you know, the item I advertised on ebay) and not the music contained on the iPod, how have I violated copyright law? How is that any different from giving a CD away. Yeah, I might still have some CD's, but what if I bought the music from the iTunes music store and there is no accompanying CD.

[pete @ Feb 14th 2006 10:08AM]

apeguero-
iTunes does not "encrypt" music when it moves it to an iPod, it just uses a folder structure that makes finding a particular song, or copying albums difficult.
You can, however, easily pull the entire contents off an iPod using windows explorer, then import it into your iTunes music library- just let iTunes "organize" your music collection (rename files/folders).
blam
no 3rd party needed

[Eric Warnke @ Feb 14th 2006 10:12AM]

Christian,

If you advertise the iPod and only the iPod you are in the clear since you have not profited from the works of others.

[homer @ Feb 14th 2006 10:45AM]

SO if I sell my computer I have to format the disk? erasing the operating system as well?

[matt @ Feb 14th 2006 10:58AM]

How would they know if the songs were copyrighted or not? suppose i sell an ipod and i preload it with SXSW then advertise it as preloded with music... there's no way to tell whether or no the music is copyrighted because they don't have physical access to the device, unless they start doing crazy sting operations, buying ipods just to see what music is preloaded on it... but as long as i don't list specific artists and songs, im in the clear... for instance "New ipod preloaded with great new pop music" screw the riaa...

[matthew @ Feb 14th 2006 11:33AM]

"SO if I sell my computer I have to format the disk? erasing the operating system as well?"
Surely youd do that anyway, if not youd better be wearing more than your tinfoil hat when 'they' come a knocking.

[Pal @ Feb 14th 2006 11:47AM]

Not as damaging as the PS2/Xbox systems/hard drives pre-loaded with games. That's just flat-out wrong.

[kenny @ Feb 14th 2006 11:49AM]

You know, I hope this blows up in their face

because I would like to know how they determin to protect music that is free online anyway from ending up on the iPod, just to increase its value while selling.

For one it would let one instantlly have a library of music to choose from, being from artist who throw their music out for free anyway, and second, it would give the person who is buying the iPod the feel of how someone used it, their essence(spelling?) if you will, let alone give the person selling it the oprotunity to make back lost bucks because Apple/MP3 player makers make changes each generation (longer battery life, bigger screen, better look...ect..).

And what if you payed for the music?....seeing if you bought it on iTunes/ect...do you not have the right to re-sell it?....last i checked the RIAA was not at yard sales...

[Cosimoto @ Feb 14th 2006 12:03PM]

Is it illegal if I sell my iPod and simply include some music on there for free?

[Radiationman @ Feb 14th 2006 12:13PM]

So you buy a "pre-loaded" iPod, then what? Once you connect it to your computer, iTunes wants to wipe the iPod when you connect it to the computer... So either you don't sync with your computer, or you download a third party app to pull the music... I don't see that as a benefit...

And this would stand in court... You can't rip a CD and then sell the tracks without the permission of the copyright holder, never could before. This is different from selling the actual CD. If the iPod was sold preloaded and all of the CDs were included with it, it would be a different story.

[pedro @ Feb 14th 2006 12:17PM]

A lot of you are not quite up to speed on the whole issue of music and licensing. Just like software, when you purchase a CD (or a piece of music from iTunes) for that matter, you are purchasing a LICENSE to listen/use to that music.

Say you sell a fully loaded iPod with tons of music that you ripped from a CD, or purchased from iTunes. If you still keep all of your CDs and all of your original itunes files, then you are most certainly in the wrong, because you are selling copies of the music.
However, if you packed up all those CDs, and transferred ownership of all of those iTunes music, then you would be transferring the LICENSE to listen to that music over to the new owner.

That is the pertinent issue. You need to terminate your existing ability to listen to the music when you sell the iPod if you wish to keep music on it.

Kenny, your last line is correct, if you payed for the music you could re-sell it. The key word being SELL, as in no longer own.


Homer, if you sell your computer, you need to include the physical license which is often attached to the machine as those windows stickers. So long as that is attached, you can sell your PC with the OS installed, or with the disk. However, as noted above, you can't re-install the OS on your new computer unless you pay for a new license.

[tommer12 @ Feb 14th 2006 12:34PM]

well, if you use a little program called SharePod, you can connect that iPod to your home computer, don't let iTunes sync it. Copy all playlists and songs off, then re-import them back into iTunes. Now, have iTunes wipe the iPod clean, then sync all "your" music. It's posted everywhere on the forums

[Waseem Hammoud @ Feb 14th 2006 2:02PM]

Buy Mine Here! I'll make sure its formatted.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5867257182&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESC%3AIT&rd=1

[ChillyWilly @ Feb 14th 2006 2:03PM]

As much as I despise the RIAA and their method of operation where you are guilty until proven innocent, advertising you are giving away songs when selling your iPod should be stopped. Just sell the iPod - loaded with music or not - and just don't say anything. Or better yet, ask the buyer if they would like the iPod wiped clean before sending it.

Or if you are really paranoid about the RIAA hired goons, then wiping an iPod takes less than 2 minutes using the iPod Updater.

Beside, as someone above mentioned, there's a really good chance that if someone is buying an iPod, they are going to want to load their own music on it and sync to their own computer... another form of wiping it clean.

[h0mi @ Feb 14th 2006 2:14PM]

I'm not sure how this works. Those tunes I downloaded from itunes onto my ipod are linked to my account... I can't easily (or exactly) resell them because of the DRM built into it... if I bought that ipod, how would I play the music? I ought to be able to sell these files (as long as I don't retain copies, and while the ipod makes it "difficult" to keep copies, it's clearly not impossible).

[h0mi @ Feb 14th 2006 2:22PM]

i meant play the music on my computer. obviously it'd still work on the ipod(unless I synced it?) but won't itunes have a cow?

[apeguero @ Feb 14th 2006 5:44PM]

I know there are ton's of third party apps that allow you to extract music from your iPod. I have them and use them. Won't say where and how I got them or name them but I familiar with them. I doubt the typical person that would buy it from eBay would know this as well though.

Now, when I sold my iPod Photo a few months back I clearly stated that it was loaded with songs that would not automatically synch into the buyer's PC. I offered the buyer my service of wiping it clean and suggested that they do so themselves in order to keep it "straight" because I was selling the iPod and not the music. But, I also said that what they did with their iPod once they got it would be their own business.

For your information, wiping it clean doesn't get rid of the music though, if I'm not mistaken. It's still there in the hard drive. All one has to do is get a program that will recover the deleted data from the iPod's hard drive and WHAMO! you have music. Those programs are out there and they do work. I can tell you this from my own personal (and stupid) experience.

So even if one wipes the iPod clean right before selling it, the data is still there people. So what's the point RHIAA? My point to them is don't fu*k with me unless you can prove that my eBay add clearly listed the music contents as part of the deal. That, BTW, is totally stupid. People advertising their iPod as having x number of songs on it and it being part of the deal is just plain stupid and asking for legal trouble.

That, I hope is what the RHIAA is trying to stop. Selling your music collection is no different than boot-legging. Selling your iPod and not mentioning the music in it, or offering to wipe it clean, but in no way saying that the music in it should be considered part of the sale, should be seen as just fine by any court because no profit would be made apart from the sale of the hardware. Does that make sense Legal Eagles? Can I get a Hell Yeah?!?

[isaac @ Dec 14th 2008 12:18AM]

isn't it ebay that will get into legal trouble if they let bootlegging happen on their auction site? not the seller himself.. besides the decision made perhaps by ebay to bann that person from ebay in the future?

So if i post an auction on ebay listing an ipod, and in the description say that there is a collection of x music and x movies which is specified to be not for sale, just on the ipod. (and not, according to apple's own legal dept. able to be removed from the ipod once put on the ipod).. legally am i not in the clear? i think that language clearly states what is and is not for sale. and if ebay has a problem, then they can close the listing.. not like i'm risking getting sued or put in jail.

legally if someone wants to put litigation against me on this. it would be going to ebay. not me? and ebay in turn can prosecute me to whatever power they have. (which is nothing more than banning me from ebay)

[rocafellaice @ Feb 15th 2006 4:27PM]

I like the wording "warn", more like "end listing" as they just ended mine before I got a chance to revise the auction.

[Jess @ Apr 5th 2006 12:24AM]

The licensing comment made by Pedro was completely wrong. If you are going to put info on here to educate consumers, do so properly. When you buy a CD, you BUY and OWN that copy. Period. You are not "licensing" the copy as you do with software. Please do not give improper info here anymore, Pedro. If anyone wants more info on this subject that is correct, let me know.