TiVo Series 3 HD DVR in beta?

If you're a TiVo fan looking for more info about the HD-capable Series 3 DVR the company showed off at CES, we've got some good news and some bad news. The good news is that it's apparently undergoing a private beta, at least according to a non-denial from TiVo Director of Service Operations E. Stephen Mack. The bad news? There's still no news on a ship date. Mack's answer when asked by Thomas Hawk: a cryptic "when it's ready." We hope it's ready soon; if not, fans may begin jumping ship to other HD options, no matter how good TiVo's offering sounds.

[Via HD Beat]

[J @ Feb 16th 2006 10:27AM]

I gave up on Tivo because of the lack of HD a LONG time ago. I have two loaded and hacked Tivos that sit lifeless now that I have a "lesser" Time Warner Cable PVR.

Unless this new HD Tivo supports the Cablecard, it is already a failure and probably the end of Tivo.

[Alex @ Feb 16th 2006 10:35AM]

Just so you know J, it supports 2 cable cards.

[koz @ Feb 16th 2006 10:47AM]

The CableCARD issue isn't the dealbreaker for me, it's the rumored lack of component and S-video inputs plus the lack of an IR blaster that has me worried. That means no satellite compatibility.

Do they REALLY want to screw over DirecTV that bad? The DishNetwork people get caught in the middle.

[Kardinal @ Feb 16th 2006 10:55AM]

J, can I have your old Tivos? :)

I'm currently running an HR10-250 hacked up to 800GB, and love the combination of HD and TiVo. The TiVo interface is just a compelling in my TV watching.

[Thomas Hawk @ Feb 16th 2006 11:03AM]

Koz, it's not about them screwing over DirecTV. Nobody would like to have this product support satellite than TiVo. The issue is the encryption of the HD signal. As this product is CableLabs certified it allows them to unencrypt the HD cable signal via CableCARD. There is not a CableLabs equivalent with the satellite providers, per se, but they would need to make their HD stream avaialable to this device in order for it to work with satellite.

Just speculation on my part but I suspect that you may actually see this in the future. Sean Alexander over at Microsoft has already blogged about that fact that DirecTV will offer an aftermarket support product which will allow new CableLabs approved Vista PCs to record high def off of DirecTV. I would suspect that DirecTV (and possibly DISH?) might offer similar aftermarket support products for TiVo Series 3.

DirectTV does not want to lose customers to cable for everyone who buys a Series 3 TiVo. The technology is already there to do this as is evidenced by the current DirecTV quad tuner TiVo box. The difference is that that is a proprietary DirecTV box whereas this is a standalone product.

It will be up to DirecTV to decide to create an aftermarket way to support this TiVo unit, but it would not surprise me if we see one. This is based on no personal information that I possess, but just speculation on my part based on what Microsoft and DirecTV are doing.

[Davis Freeberg @ Feb 16th 2006 11:04AM]

Isn't it a little dumb to "give up" on TiVo just because the studios have made it so difficult for them to release their HDTV TiVo. They were the first ones out with an HDTV dual tuner PVR after all (albeit initially DirecTV only) I think it's ok to use alternatives that can fit your needs, but as soon as this series 3 is released, you can bet that I'll be in line to buy one. You can give up on the company if you like, but when they release their series 3, it will be the best box on the market. Believe me the cable HDTV pvr is only a stop gap measure for most former TiVo subscribers.

[Jeff @ Feb 16th 2006 11:25AM]

"Believe me the cable HDTV pvr is only a stop gap measure for most former TiVo subscribers."

Not me. There's nothing worthwhile that TiVo offers that the cable company DVR doesn't other than suggestions. And there are things the cable company DVR does *better* than TiVo (at least the current models), like fast channel switching and a faster interface (TiVo's slow menus really drove me crazy). And of course, you don't have to "buy" the cable company DVR.

I mainly got my cable company DVR for its HD capability and dual tuners. The new TiVo box will have those things too, but a) it'll be expensive, and b) there's no guarantee they'll have worked out their various software issues that have only been getting worse over the past couple years.

So, I doubt I'll be going back. TiVo was a pioneer in this field and they should be recognized as such, but you don't buy a Ford today just because they made the first mass-produced car - there are plenty of cars out there that are better. Same thing with DVR's.

[S @ Feb 16th 2006 11:30AM]

Actually, the one thing that you are forgetting is that DirecTV is already screwing TiVo. About 6 months ago, they decided to split, and now DirecTV now manufactures it's own DVR. If you watch their commercials, they are two different systems.

[Peter Thill @ Feb 16th 2006 11:39AM]

I agree with Davis. I got an HD DVR cable box as a stopgap, but kept my old Tivo. The user interface on the Scientific Atlantic box is pathetic. I think it was designed by somebody who has never watched television. Clearly by somebody who has never used a Tivo. I am glad Tivo is taking the time to get it right. And with SATA external drives, we will be much more "future proof"; I don't think I am going to care about the Blu-ray/ HD-DVD war; I will just add more hard drive space as $/GB continues to fall. As soon as I can get a Series 3, that box is going straight back to the cable company.

[PJP @ Feb 16th 2006 11:39AM]

In August 2005 I dropped my DirecTiVo (non-HD) and went with the Comcast HD solution after much handwringing because:

(a) I wasn't going to spend the pile of cash for the HD DirecTiVo;

(b) I didn't trust DirecTV to support that unit very well anyway, given both DirecTV's track record of holding back TiVo upgrades and given DirecTV's focus on their own DVR;

(c) I have access to more HD content on Comcast then on DirecTV (that may not be the case today, but it was six months ago;

(d) On Demand rocks, and DirecTV has nothing that competes; and -- most importantly

(e) TiVo and Comcast will eventually pair up. A mailing to Comcast subscribers at the beginning of the year and other things I've read suggested the TiVo interface will be available as a download onto existing boxes for a premium fee.

Let's face it, there is no comparison between the TiVo interface and the Comcast/Motorola offering, but generally speaking it gets the job done and, yes #6, we're just biding our time until TiVo catches back up to us.

[Carlton Bale @ Feb 16th 2006 12:25PM]

Currently, I'm quite pleased with my DirecTV HR10-250 High-Def Tivo. I wouldn't switch to a non-Tivo cable DVR. Features such as prioritized season passes make Tivo the only option for me. The only thing really lacking on the HR10-250 is a software update to version 6.x, so it can take advantage of all of the features made available on Standard-Def Series 2 DirecTivo, such as folders and improved speed.

Now, when this dual CableCard Series 3 HD Tivo is available, I'm thinking I may switch to Comcast cable. This would give me all of the stand-alone Tivo features not offered by DirecTV, such as remote scheduling, multi-room viewing, Tivo-to-Go, downloaded content, streaming music, etc.

The only thing DirecTV could do to stop me from going cable is offering CableCard support compatible with the Series 3 HD TiVo. After reviewing their internally-developed PVR options and its lack of advanced features, I'm definitely more loyal to Tivo than to DirecTV.

[Amnesia @ Feb 16th 2006 12:42PM]

I'm waiting for this unit before I get an HDTV. Yes, my Comcast box can record HD, but only 15 hours worth---that's just not enough.

For me, the biggest advantage the new TiVo unit will have over my Comcast HD DVR is external drive support...

[BK @ Feb 16th 2006 1:14PM]

I was a former RePlay user (remember those?).
I now have the HD DVR from Time Warner, and it meets all my needs. Even when TIVO series 3 comes out (with cable card), it still will be lacking the in-demand (on-demand?) feature that I now get with my PVR (since the current cable card standard has only one-way communication).

[AR @ Feb 16th 2006 1:41PM]

"Not me. There's nothing worthwhile that TiVo offers that the cable company DVR doesn't other than suggestions."

How about get rid of the bugs? I had 2 Series2 Tivos that now sit idle. I got 2 new Comcast Moto 6412 III HD DVRs to use with HDMI. Besides the inferior interface...which most would agree about, this thing is full of bugs:

1. Phantom "1989" recordings showing up that cannot be deleted until you pull the plug on the DVR.

2. Frequent sound drop-out when using the 30 second skip hack with HDMI out. This requires you to turn off the DVR or TV to reacquire the audio signal.

3. NO HDMI handshake to HDMI receivers...only TVs.

4. Since I cannot connect the HDMI out to my HDMI input on the receiver, I wanted to at least take the audio signal to the receiver. Nope. There is no sound output signal from RCA/Component when using HDMI.

If I thought hard enough, I probably could come up with a few more problems. The bottom line is that I never had any serious bugs with my Series2 Tivos and I doubt Tivo will release their flagship Series3 Tivo with bugs similar to the ones I experience on a daily basis with my 6412 III boxes.

[TicalWRX @ Feb 16th 2006 1:54PM]

Davis, you hit the nail right on the head. I was a Tivo customer for 4 years and switched to the cable HDTV pvr just for the HDTV a year ago. I'll be right along side you in line for that Series 3 Tivo. They have the best and most realiable user interface. Not once in my 4 years did my Tivo have a glitch or not record what I wanted. Couldnt even come close to saying that about the Cox Motorola box (had 3 of them in 1 month) or the Comcast Scientif Atlanta box (2 in 1 month).

[YupYup @ Feb 16th 2006 1:57PM]

Just a quick question to those who have "hacked" their Tivo systems to increase storage space. How do I do it and is it something a novice can do? I bought a 40gb Tivo a year ago because it was super cheap and didn't think I'd need more than that. I still don't need much more than that but a couple times I've run out of room and had it delete stuff or simply not record (giving that "you suck, delete stuff because you have no room" error). I'd just go buy a larger capacity one, but I paid for the 'lifetime' subscription and haven't gotten my money's worth yet. Thanx.

[Jason @ Feb 16th 2006 2:09PM]

The primary excitement of the Series 3 box is that it will hopefully support things like Tivo-to-go and media center, I'm really interested to see how they handle the large filesizes of HD programs when they are transferred for watching via Tivo-to-go.

If they don't offer these options than the Series 3 box is probably dead before it even arrives. With an anticipated $1000 price most people would be stupid not to just rent the Comcast/Time-Warner dual tuner HD PVR for a whopping $10 a month. Additionally Comcast will be offering the Tivo software on their 6412 hardware sometime this summer, and the price will still be $10 a month.

[Rick @ Feb 16th 2006 3:27PM]

The key feature that would generate the sales they seek would be COMPONENT high-definition inputs. Using dedicated hardware, the capability to digitize component input would be a killer unique feature.

[elect @ Feb 16th 2006 3:29PM]

"A mailing to Comcast subscribers at the beginning of the year"

Did Comcast give any indication on pricing or timing?

Its really easy to upgrade your memory in your tivo. Basically you just open it up with a screw driver and swap the hard drives. Thats it. Weaknees sells pre-formatted hard drives. The only downside is your void your warranty.

[Hogarth @ Feb 16th 2006 4:17PM]

"The key feature that would generate the sales they seek would be COMPONENT high-definition inputs. Using dedicated hardware, the capability to digitize component input would be a killer unique feature."

... killer feature costing $18,000.
http://www.lsilogic.com/products/video_production__professional_/hdtvxpress.html

[Bierboy @ Feb 16th 2006 4:55PM]

I'm all over this unit like a fly on ----. I've been grappling with the Sony DHG-HDD 250/500 for the past two months and finally gave up after three lemons in a row. I got full refund from BB (even past their 30 day full refund policy). I have the cash now in the bank for the Series 3 plus lifetime, and will be giddy as a schoolboy the last day before summer vacation when it comes out. I WILL pay premium, because, believe me, I KNOW it will be the best thing out there for someone like me who refuses to cave in to the sat and cable companies.

[AR @ Feb 16th 2006 5:34PM]

To YupYup:
I like the book "Hacking Tivo" by Keegan. It came with a Linux boot CD-ROM and great instructions for adding or replacing your drives.

Or just go to http://www.weaknees.com/ and buy a replacement kit or have them do it.

[Jimbob @ Feb 16th 2006 6:22PM]

#13 - CableCard 1.0 is only one-way. These boxes will be CableCard 2.0 compliant, which is 2-way. Get your facts straight.

[E. Stephen Mack (TiVoOpsMgr) @ Feb 16th 2006 7:00PM]

Folks, please note that I didn't say anything to Thomas one way or the other about the status of the Series3 unit. I cannot confirm or deny that the Series3 unit is or is not in beta testing. I did say that "it will be released when it's ready" but that's about all I can say.

As for satellite support: Please note that there are no consumer grade real-time HD encoders/decoders that would work with the analog HD signal from the satellite box that available at a reasonable price. If the Series3 unit could gain access to the satellite digital HD signal that's one thing, but it cannot do real-time encoding of an analog HD feed (and nor can any other HD DVR). The only alternatives are to build an integrated box (which gets the digital signal and decodes it to analog) or CableCard.

[Gary Tait @ Feb 16th 2006 7:34PM]

Come on. The Series 3 is going to be sold alongside the Series 2 DVRs, so if you have satellite, you can still have your TiVo with an existing (or future rendition of) Series 2, or a DirecTV DVR.

The Series 3 is made to be a cable/antenna only DVR.

Yes, admittely, the ony shortcoming is TiVo offers no HD-DVR to work with existing cable or satellite tuners, but remember nobody else has one either.

[Dan203 @ Feb 16th 2006 7:34PM]

Actually no one has said the Series 3 will be CableCARD 2.0 compliant. All that has been said is that they will support multi-stream cards, which are actually part of a suplimentary standard of CableCARD 1.0. In fact it is highly unlikely they will be CC2.0 compliant as that would require OCAP, which would basically take away everything that makes a TiVo a TiVo.

Dan

[WizarDru @ Feb 17th 2006 10:05AM]

"Actually no one has said the Series 3 will be CableCARD 2.0 compliant. All that has been said is that they will support multi-stream cards, which are actually part of a suplimentary standard of CableCARD 1.0."

Only if, when you say "no one" you mean TiVo. TiVo was quite clear that it featured a slot-area that would support two Cablecard 1.0 cards OR a single Cablecard 2.0 card. In fact, waiting for the CC 2.0 standard to be ratified was almost certainly part of the reason for the delay.

Could you clarify why you think OCAP would 'take away everything that makes a TiVo a TiVo'? I'm not really sure how having a java-based extensible connector to use the cable co.s middleware is relevant either way. Are you saying because you think it will convince people to use their middleware versus the TiVo interface?

I have a 6412 and two TiVos, and if the TiVos did HD, I'd drop the 6412 in a heartbeat. It's buggy and has the worst interface of any such device I've ever used. It's storage is limited and it's performance poor. The only advantage it has over my TiVo is dual-tuners, which the D*Tv units have (the only advantage those units have, as I'm sure D*TV customers would point out). Hell, Tivo2Go is worth the price of admission alone.

[Gary Tait @ Feb 17th 2006 10:46AM]

No, they (TiVo) said it will be single multistream card compatble, which does not necessarily mean a 2.0 card.

For OCAP
Cable wants you to use their middleware to use their interactive services. STB manufacturers want to have their UI available to use the interactive services, to differentiate themselves in the marketplace.

[CupertinoSlim @ Feb 17th 2006 6:44PM]

My experience is the same as WizarDru's. I'll dump the wretched Comcast Moto boxes as soon as the Series 3 is available, and get rid of our HD DirecTivos at another location and switch to Comcast.

[Steve @ Feb 21st 2006 1:10PM]

Man, some tough choices coming up. Between TiVo Series 3 with cable, hoping that DirecTV DVRs will get ahead of the curve, and Microsoft Vista Media Center, (not to mention home builts based on gentoo linux), we'll have an overwhelming number of choices. I've been hanging on with my hacked DirecTivo unit for a while now, which my family loves, but I want HD! We're moving in a couple of months to another state, and I expect to make a choice (or at least figure a stopgap) then. It should coincide with the Series 3 release, so maybe I'll go from DirecTiVo to a Series 3 and cable. But I left cable a few years ago because the companies were so slimy, unhelpful and non technical. I really hate to go crawling back. Not that DirecTV is much more technical -- until you get past their initial support screens -- but since it's only one satellite rather than a million local cable companies, there's more useful stuff on the web. But I've been REALLY disappointed that my RCA DVR40, which is Series 2 HW, but not enabled via SW, is not keeping up with $50 boxes at BB. Just because DirecTV chooses not to. I'm just don't feel like hacking this box again...

Anyway - here's to the next year for HD DVRs! I already told my wife to plan on a big purchase within the next year. :)

"We are surrounded by insurmountable opportunity"
-- Pogo (comic character from years gone by)

[OILs K. @ Feb 27th 2006 3:05AM]

they do plan to have CableCARD 2 or MultiStream CableCard support. This is more than Windows Vista is planning to support...Now, which cable companies will be offering this?

[WWebb @ Mar 16th 2006 9:49PM]

For all those who have suggested that the Series 3 is vaporware, TiVo is talking about giving them away as prizes in their latest email message:

"Weekly drawings commence with cool TiVo merchandise (10 winners per week) and end with the mother of all Grand Prizes, if we do say so ourselves: a Limited-Edition TiVo� Series3� HD Digital Media Recorder (the minute it hits shelves later this year)"

[Rob Thomsen @ Mar 19th 2006 9:35PM]

I just switched from DirecTV (8 years) with TiVo to Cox Fairfax Virginia. Overall, I am pleased, mainly because of value. Given that I was willing to switch phone service as well, I went from paying around $175/month to $122, plus added HD and HD DVR capability and several premium channels, due to Cox's "dish buy-back" program (services 1/2 price for first year). But I must also say that we are terribly disappointed in the SA8300. The interface is akin to working with Basic when compared with TiVo. We can't wait for an HD TiVo interface (assuming it's not cost prohibitive). Problems such as being kicked into live TV when your recorded program ends while you're still watching it (possibly spoiling the result of a sporting event, for example), recordings being cancelled without review when conflicts arise, and limiting alphabetical searches to the first letter of the program (scroll through the thousands of programs to follow to find what you're looking for), I can't believe the programmers can't address these glitches. Scientific Atlantic, if you're reading this, please give it more effort!

[Joe Giordano @ Apr 1st 2006 6:25PM]

Has anyone read anywhere if the Series 3 will accept HDMI as the primary input from an HD cablebox or the only way is straight coax with the cablecard?

[Bill H. @ Apr 18th 2006 1:28PM]

Well, I've (unfortunately) got 3 SA8300HDs from Adelphia. The ONLY reason I've got them is because the only real HD content available to me is via Adelphia. HW is not Direct or Dish's problem - content is. Their HD content is pathetic. The 8300HDs are horribly unreliable, miss recordings, lock up, have sound drop-outs, sound synch issues, and as others have mentioned have an absolutely horrendous UI. Take a look at the "search" function and you'll understand. If TiVo gets the series 3 out the door and it works - I'll buy it - not matter the cost. Yes, the cable DVRs are cheaper - but the dual tuner and HD capability are their sole salvation. When others come to market, I'll drop them instantly.

[Yes @ Apr 27th 2006 5:01PM]

We NEED component input, and serial control. The IR sucks, the units are slow, and there is no "Series 2" options on the HR-10-250.