Ask Engadget: Standards-based camcorders (with hard drives)

Last week we probed for your best picks on cellphone boosters for our man Nick B, who just wasn't getting proper reception. This week our pal James wants to know what you know about camcorders, shortly and sweetly:

"I'm in the market for a new camcorder (preferably hard drive-based, though not necessarily). I'd like something that records at decent resolutions in standard codecs and hopefully is USB mass storage compliant -- both things the JVC Everio fails to do. Besides the R30 and the SR100 what are my options, drive-based camcorders or otherwise?"

Well, you heard the man, what're you people wielding to capture those precious familial moments?

[21st Hermit @ Mar 9th 2006 10:16PM]

Consider a flash based digital camera. Many will do 640 x 480 @ 30fps with audio. Generally your limited to either 1GB per clip [~9 min] or the size of the flash card. Whatever you choose, be sure to get OIS [Optical Image Stabilization].

Hermit

[They @ Mar 9th 2006 10:23PM]

I want an HDD based camcorder! I've always thought about riging up some sort of hdd to like a sony handycam, but never could figure out how to do it.

[Cory @ Mar 9th 2006 10:36PM]

1st things first, don't do a hard drive camcorder... I purchased 3 different ones, not satisfied with the quality on a single one... especially the Everio by JVC.... My recoomendation is the 3ccd panasonic pvgs-150... slightly cheaper, and unmatched quality for the price.. If you have good lighting, this t hing will blow you away... Hard drive camcorders have horrible compression, just horrible, only dv tapes, and pro film will yield great results, due to low compression... My advice, get the panasonic i mentioned (gotta love 3ccds at the consumer price, eh?) or upgrade to the $100 more version with a larger lens that has even better quality.... Either one is fine... get the camera, and like 6 dv tapes (about $10, sometimes free with the camera)... and your good to go :D!

[Al @ Mar 9th 2006 10:38PM]

You can add Hard drives to cannon mini Dv cams it just plugs in to the fire wie port. the best thing about it is you can record to both the Hard Drive and the Mini DV.

I love redundant systems.

[TZK @ Mar 9th 2006 10:47PM]

You could always get a digital camera with a CF slot that supports CF HHDs like the Sony V3, which also happens to have nightshot, steady shot, and of course, its a nice form factor and feels good in the hand. There are others out there that do CF HDD, but not many that shoot continuously until the memory is full - and the V3 does. Of course, it also has that Sony memory stick thing :-P

[jake @ Mar 9th 2006 11:47PM]

HDD based camcorders suck. I work in a video production lab on a college campus, and all of our cameras use miniDV. I was talking to a professor today who said that miniDV is the best you can get for home video, and if you want to upgrade from that, get a camera that uses DVC (same standard as miniDV, but you can store around 4 hours of video on one higher grade tape). If you get the Sony PD150, it can use both miniDV and DVC; and, that is a very nice camera.

also, the kind of camera you should get is highly based on what you want to do with it. If all you're doing is recording your kids baseball game, the PD150 would definitely be overkill; I'd recommend a panasonic or cannon miniDV camera that'll cost you about $350. But, if you're doing anything professional grade, a higher end camera could cost you between $3000-$5000.

miniDV cameras are also nice in that a miniDV tapes are cheap. so, you can afford to have a bunch of them with you, to make sure you don't run out of space. Where as with a HDD based player, you're eventually going to run out.

once you've gotten your footage on the miniDV tape, you can dump it to your computer via a firewire connection (NOT USB). You'll need some sort of video capturing program. I'm not sure if windows movie maker allows you to import video footage or not. I know that Adobe Premiere for PC and Final Cut Pro for mac are really nice. Also, iMovie can import from firewire. I've also heard of people using pinacle studios (no idea if I even spelled that right) in windows, but I have no experience with it personally. My personal pick is Adobe on this one; but as with the camera, if you're not really doing much, it'll be overkill.


the last thing is this: if you haven't already bought your video editting rig, don't believe anyone who tells you "macs are better for video editting". while this may have been true before, it isn't now. They don't suck at it, but they definitely don't have any fundamental advantage. (yes, I'm aware people will bitch about me saying that).

[russ @ Mar 10th 2006 12:22AM]

jake, why not USB? if its a digital transfer - it'll be the same bits whatever connector? or is the hassle with drivers & compatibility?

[bophojones @ Mar 10th 2006 12:30AM]

Go the route of minidv. It's supported by everything from computers to televisions to all-in-one-external-no-computer DVD burners. I myself use a Canon ZR400: it's simple to use, takes amazing widescreen video, and takes stills and mpeg movie to boot. For less than $400, you can't go wrong.

[Brendna Eaton @ Mar 10th 2006 12:49AM]

Most standards based (ie NTSC/PAL, SD or HDV) compliant camcorders use firewire for data transfer. If USB is present it's used for transferring digital stills or low bandwidth streaming video.

Cameras with 3 CCDs capture better images because there is a separate chip for each color channel. (Red Green and Blue).

Resolutions (and prices) vary according to the format. Most cameras outside the broadcast and film worlds fall into 3 categories: Standard DV (720x480 60i), HDV 720p (1280x720 30p) or HDV 1070i (1920x1080 60i) where i=interlaced and p=progressive.

I won't comment on hard disk based cameras except that if you're in the field and run out of space, it's much easier to have an empty DV tape on hand than emptying the camera's HD.

[Brendan Eaton @ Mar 10th 2006 1:09AM]

SD is actually 640 x 480i. I got confused because DV footage is displayed on computers at 720x480.

If you can get to a store that has multiple cameras available to use on site (like B+H photo/video in NYC) you can see for yourself whether the image quality increase justifies the higher price or vice versa.

[Dan Simonson, Emperor of the Moon, KSC @ Mar 10th 2006 1:55AM]

I will die swearing by MiniDV. Really, don't do something stupid.

[GK @ Mar 10th 2006 3:07AM]

umm..you're no more likely to run out of space on a HDD camcorder than you are likely to run out of tapes out in the field. Both are a finite resource. They do hold like 15 to 30hrs.

[BG @ Mar 10th 2006 3:56AM]

Anyone, please!

How many times can one MiniDV be re-use until it really.. really.. unusable anymore?

Thanks in Advance!

[ChrisJM @ Mar 10th 2006 3:56AM]

A friend & I recently started a small video production studio, so I'm fairly well versed on the cameras available. For now, as others have said, MiniDV is still the best bet by far. All of the hard-drive based cameras, as well as the miniDVD cameras (look- not "miniDV"), and even the new HD cameras, record as mpeg-2, which means it's already highly compressed. That's how they can fit so much video onto those hard drives and miniDVDs (and in the case of HD, miniDV tapes). Once the hard-drive based cameras can hold enough that I can record in DV format for several hours, and/or maybe have some kind of hot swappable hard drive (I'm not talking microdrive here-- I'm talking 30GB swappable) then we'll be in business. Also-- any camera (including your new 8MP still camera) that says it records at 640x480 @ 30fps onto a memory card-- you might as well record it on your phone. Usually those lenses can't pick up enough detail to start with, and when you add to that the very low-quality mpeg-2 they're saved in in order to fit onto that card, you're left with nothing more than a webcam vid.

HD: As I mentioned, "HDV" format is actually mpeg-2 as well. It's deceiving, cause you'd think it would be the same type of compression as the DV cameras, but it's completely different. That's how they can fit 60 minutes of HD content onto the same old miniDV tape that fits 60 minutes of SD footage in DV format-- HDV is compressed. And yes, that means it doesn't look as good as it could. It's still better than DV, cause there's a lot more pixels there, but don't think you're going to get crystal clear HD. The HD cameras also don't do well in dim light situations, due to all the pixels they're trying to capture. Just food for thought...

[ChrisJM @ Mar 10th 2006 4:21AM]

Not sure if this is what Al was talking about, but there is a device called FireStore FS-4 that contains a hard drive & plugs into high-end cameras for direct-to-disk recording; however, realize this is NOT consumer-priced hardware. You can NOT plug a regular firewire hard drive into a camera for direct to drive recording, unfortunately. How sweet would THAT be!

Read all about the FireStore FS-4: http://www.eventdv.net/Articles/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=8681

[Brendan Eaton @ Mar 10th 2006 5:20AM]

In addition to ChrisJM's point that HDV is more compressed to fit the same length of more pixels on a single miniDV tape, the editing process is complicated by mpeg-2's GOP (group of pictures) structure. Movies are compressed in groups of 12 or 15 frames instead of compressing individual frames (like SD DV) so the editing software has to work a bit harder to cut clips apart.

Also encoding artifacts are more likely to noticable in shots with super fast motion or that changes from frame to frame.

If HD is important but HDV is too compressed for you, consider Panasonic's DVCPRO-HD format, which has 4 times the bit-rate of HDV and SD DV. All digital formats are compressed - it's just a matter of how much and where in the pipeline that happens.

My previous point about "being in the field" is that once you pass the 30 hour threshold of the camera's disk, you cannot shoot without access to a second camera or a laptop. MinidV tapes are small, lightweight and inexpensive. A removable disk system (see the FireStore mentioned above) would be another solution to this hypothetical.

[tron @ Mar 10th 2006 5:46AM]

@JAKE: You asked why not USB:

USB is dumb, and Firewire (nee IEEE1394) is smart. 1394 lets you control the device you are connected to, as well as transfer the data. USB just transfers data.

An example - using most video editing software, with 1394, you can control play, pause, search, FF, RW from the keyboard. When I use MacrAdobe Premiere Pro, as I dump my tape to the HDD, I can mark in and out points, then have a cup of coffee while the tape is magically transferred to the editing software.

With USB - you can't control, you can only get data dumped.

Also - 1394 requires no silly drivers like some camcorders USB 'standards' require. It's truly one of the only real 'plug and play' interfaces out there.

[hp @ Mar 10th 2006 7:50AM]

Take a look at yesterdays Rocketboom (www.rocketboom.com) al you wil see ONE COOL CAMERA!

[HP Akkerman @ Mar 10th 2006 7:52AM]

Take a look at yesterdays Rocketboom with Amanda Congdon (www.rocketboom.com) and you will see ONE COOL CAMERA!!

[jake @ Mar 10th 2006 9:45AM]

@russ: the reason not usb is because the video must be fed from the camera to the computer in real time. While USB2.0 is faster than firewire for burst transfer, firewire is faster for sustained throughput.

Say you have a external harddrive that has the option of either firewire or USB; transfering a 10MB file will be faster on USB, but a 5G file will be slower in the longrun. I don't have a link to it, but I think toms hardware (amongst others) have comparisons with graphs and whatnot.




Also, I forgot to say this last night: another thing I don't like about miniDVD/HDD based cameras *is* that they compress the video. I know that they can hold more, but recompressing the video later (after editting) is going to be somewhat lossy. I have personally used a miniDVD camera, and was not very pleased. Then again, that was a few years ago, so they might be better now.


Anyone know if there's an option to turn off the compression on HDD/miniDVD based cameras?

[d3 @ Mar 10th 2006 1:13PM]

Good call on the Firestor, that is one market segment where I'd like to see a lot more growth and choice.

I recently worked on a studio shoot where I directly captured each take in Final Cut Pro. I took the firewire feed of a sony DVCAM camera, and the camera op recorded to the DVCAM tape as a backup. Once the shoot was over, I threw out all the bad takes and i could go straight to edit, no log/capture necessary. WHAT a TIMESAVER. This setup isn't too convenient for field shooting, but it is cheaper than a firestore if you already have a good laptop.

That said, i concur with everyone else, miniDV is still the way to go. I LOVE my Pana PVGS400.

Oh, and in answer to #13, BG: DO NOT reuse miniDV tapes. Tape pitch is too slow for multiple passes, unlike DVCAM or DVCPRO. Batch capture your clips after recording and put the source tapes away, the fewer passes over the heads the better.

[Steveo @ Mar 10th 2006 1:15PM]

I would go with the Sanyo VPC-HD1

http://www.engadget.com/2006/01/07/video-feature-sanyos-vpc-hd1/

It goes on sale this month. Engadget, I'll take a free one and write a review for you. I am a software engineer so I will give you the skinny and not some Steve's "Advertisement" Review.

[Greg DePasse @ Mar 10th 2006 1:20PM]

One of the biggest attractions to a hard disk based recorder, is my impression that I will be able to transfer video from the recorder to my player faster than my current setup which transfers in real time (30 minutes of video takes 30 minutes to transfer). Does anyone know if this is actually the case?

For those of you recommending a miniDV camera, do you know of any that can quickly transfer video to a computer?

Thanks,
Greg

[Phil @ Mar 10th 2006 2:39PM]

For me it's all about time savings and quality. I have a small video production company that does corporate content (training, special events, etc.) and all of the videographers are equipped with Sony DCR-DVD403's. They record in the compressed MPEG2 standard and the quality of the miniDVDs they produce is not distinguishable, by our customers, from miniDV tape content that has been converted to DVD. This is the first MPEG2 product that I can make that claim for.

Transfer to the computer happens in minutes either via direct read of the media in a DVD drive or via USB2 connection. All current computers have USB2 - most current computers require an add-on card for FireWire, so USB2 is more convenient.

MPEG2 convenience and time savings is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars per year for our customers when you add up the time saved in transferring, reviewing, and editing content. We use VideoRedo, simple and inexpensive Windows XP software which allows editing in seconds and somehow overcomes the GOP issue mentioned above.

Don't listen to the miniDV snobs unless you want to spend ridiculous amounts of your precious time transferring and compressing video and scratching your head as to why your capture software seems to drop frames for unfathomable reasons, even on high-end hardware. MPEG2 transfer is also much more efficient in terms of the hard disk space you need for editing.

[ChrisJM @ Mar 10th 2006 2:57PM]

First thing: HD == High-Def // HDD == Hard Disk Drive

PC World has an article that shows the reason people are so confused about all this. One quote: "Recent increases in storage capacities in removable memory such as Secure Digital (SD) cards and Memory Stick/Memory Stick Pro have led to the release of a series of pocket-sized camcorders that can record over an hour of high-quality MPEG-2 video." They make it sound like it's the same quality as miniDV, when it's really not at all. miniDVD discs hold about 2.3GB, which equates to about 30 minutes of "high-quality mpeg-2". Remember, with the exception of HD, no matter how "high quality" it is, mpeg-2 is always lower quality than DV.

Sorry, Phil-- but if you're using VideoRedo for editing, you're probably not doing any major editing like Final Cut Pro can do. (call ME a snob...!! j/k!) If you're not re-compressing when you're done, that means you can retain the original mpeg-2 capture quality, which may not be that bad with the camera you mentioned. That's not an option for us. We need to edit, add real special effects, etc. render the whole thing, and then export as mpeg-2 for DVD. My biggest issue right now is, even when I use Final Cut Pro to export as a high-bitrate, high-quality mpeg-2, I can still see the compression artifacts in some scenes of the DVD. If my source had also been mpeg-2, that artifacting would have been multiplied exponentially, and not good enough quality for my customers. Has anyone ever tried to sharpen a low-quality jpeg, and then save it again as a low-quality jpeg? Sure, it's a lot smaller filesize than a TIFF, but the quality is horrid. High-quality mpeg-2 is approximately synonymous with a medium-quality jpeg image. DV is sort of like TIFF.

Jake- no, you can't turn off compression on the miniDVD camcorders. If it were an option, you'd only be able to fit about 10 minutes of DV onto a miniDVD. With the Everio HDD cameras, at least you'd be able to fit a little over 2 hours of DV on the 30GB model, but then you're stuck with a useless camera until you've transferred the footage off; That may be faster than real-time like with miniDV, but they don't give you that option, so it's a mute point. Again, I'm waiting for the 60GB hot-swappable days of the future. 4+ hours of DV footage on a drive; instantly editable on your Mac/PC.

To elaborate on USB2 vs FireWire, USB 2.0 uses the computer's CPU, unlike FireWire, which is a self-contained transfer. That's why FireWire can sustain the data rate transfer & USB2 can't. (That's probably why FireWire is more expensive, too). In addition, FireWire allows the computer to actually control (play, pause, ffw, etc.) the DV camera, which works great for batch-capturing from a tape when you don't want the whole thing-- not possible w/USB.

Greg-- DV transfers in real-time. No way around that. Only way right now would be to use something like the FireStore, where the footage is recorded directly to the drive in parallel with the miniDV tape. Or direct-record to your PC/Mac.

[Dithermaster @ Mar 10th 2006 3:30PM]

The Sony Hard Disk Camcorder (DCR-SR100) uses MPEG-2 and is USB mass storage compliant.

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_BrowseCatalog-Start?CategoryName=dcc_DICamcorders_HardDiskHandycamCamcorders&Dept=cameras

///d@

[Rich @ Mar 10th 2006 7:46PM]

I did some researching and Toshiba is offerign 3 different HDD camcorders, the Gigashot GSC-R30 and the GSC-R60. I haven't really read any reviews on them but you can read some on them here, http://www.infosyncworld.com/news/n/6409.html

[Alex F @ Mar 30th 2006 11:57PM]

Dude, go for a miniDV. I have a Sony PD-150 and before I bought it I did a lot of research into different cameras. Lets get a few things straight.

Compression:
images come in the lens, hit the CCDs, and then get compressed BEFORE they hit the tape. The MiniDV codec has a data rate of 25Mb/sec, or around 11-14GB/hr (depending on audio, etc.). So if you have a 30GB disk and it records 2 hours worth of footage, it is recording std miniDV to disk rather than tape.

If it is fitting more in less space, etc. it is compressing the image even more, which makes the chance of digital artifacts even greater. Mini-DVD recorders have to deal with the speed at which the Mini-DVD can be burned, so in order to record onto them realtime, the video must be even more aggresively compressed.

OK, so it is compressed to tape. THen youo dump it via FW to your PC. You are dumping it as an uncompressed avi file most likely (unless you are using an Avid system or Avid DV Xpress, in which case it is uncompressed OMF files). SO now you have uncompressed video. This is what you edit. Then most likely you will render the final file as uncompressed avi, and import it into a DVD authoring package. This will then take the avi and compress it to an MPEG (VOB really) for burning onto a DVD. You can compress it out of your video editing software, but it is generally a much better idea to compress it in the authoring stage. That is another topic, however.

So you see the video gets compressed (lossy), uncompressed, and then recompressed. Because of this it is better to have as little compression in the whole process as possible to retain the quality.

IOW, stay away from Mini-DVD and anything (HDD or flash based) that compresses at a greater rate than miniDV.

You want firewire, not USB. If you do not have firewire, you can get a firewire PCI card for $20. You don't need FW800, just FW400. You don't need a FW card that is specially made for miniDV video. No need to spend $50+ when a $20 card will do just fine.

In the consumer range, the best ones really are the Panasonic PV-GS series, starting with the GS-150 up to the GS-400. These are great 3 CCD cameras (3 CCDs are MUCH better than 1. They capture more color information, have better resolution, and perform better in low light, and have less grain in their image. DONT confuse CCD with CMOS. 1 CMOS can produce an image as good as 3CCDs. However, I believe that only the sony consumer HDV camcorder currently uses a CCD.

This is all not about being a "miniDV snob". It's about quality. Remember the old adage:

Good fast or cheap. Pick 2. Mini-DVD gives you fast & cheap. Consumer miniDV gives you good & cheap. Professional codecs generally just give you good (but its REALLY good).

You can go the budget route and use USB to transfer and cheap software to edit, or you can use Adobe Premiere Elements, or Avid Xpress Free, and use firewire and the software will most likely recognise your camera and pull it directly from the camera into your editing software. Yes. It does it in real time. So go run an errand, organize your sock drawer, etc.

Also, don't believe the B.S. that you are going to be dropping frames, even with high-end software. I have an old AMD XP1800+ w/ 1Gig of Ram. Certainly not state of the art. I hook my PD-150 up to the $20 FW 400 card that I installed in the machine, and have used both Adobe Premiere and Avid Xpress Pro to import tapes, and never dropped a frame.

As a few people said, with miniDV after an hour you can popout a tape and pop in a new one and continue filming. Not so with HDD or Flash-based cameras. Tape and mini DVD are the only ones where this is an option

Also, forget abouot things like the Firestor, etc. There are a few companies that make these. The price range is ridiculous - From $600-$1200 for just a 40 Gig little box. Specialized firmware & everything, but really!

Get a 12" or smaller laptop w/ a firewire port and run the FW from the camera out to the laptop. Just make sure you have enough disk space, and use a 5400 rpm laptop drive.

For poster #6 - You are confusing DVC and DVCam a bit. DVC is a panasonic standard, and DVCam is a Sony standard. They are both 25Mb/sec data rates like MiniDV, but they record to tape a lot faster. FOr example, My PD-150 can record DVCam to a miniDV tape, but only gets 40 minutes to a tape in that mode. In DVCam it records to tape faster. This means that each second of video has more real estate on the tape. It means that there is less of a chance of dropped frames, but it also means that you can stripe the tape with SMPTE time code. Panasonic's DVC (aka DVC25) is very similar to DVCam in that respect, but they are no compatible. However, most NLEs can easily understand minDV, DVCam, DVC25, DVC50, DVCPro, etc.

[Alex F @ Mar 31st 2006 12:07AM]

In my previous post I said:

However, I believe that only the sony consumer HDV camcorder currently uses a CCD.

It should have read:

However, I believe that only the sony consumer HDV camcorder currently uses a CMOS.

Also:

Also, don't believe the B.S. that you are going to be dropping frames, even with high-end software.

should read:
even with high-end HARDware.

[eddie @ Aug 11th 2006 5:02PM]

you might find some helpful answers here as well:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/archive/index.php/t-678.html

[johnty @ Mar 7th 2007 8:40AM]

Can anyone help ,i have a JVC mini dv camcorder and the software has crashed on my pc ,i have reinstalled but will still not operate correctly ,my existing footage stored on there is also unavailable to use even though i can see it , i was recomende to install a firewire card which i have but this does not control my camcorder like the usb conection did. also the footage seems poor when i capture it using ulead software that came free with the card ,also there is no sound with the footage.
can anyone suggest to me a solution to this,and recomend a good capture provider

thanks