French minister's response to Apple: "I don't want the crap."
By Marc Perton 
posted Apr 14th 2006 9:41AM
posted Apr 14th 2006 9:41AM
French Trade Minister Christine Lagarde has
hit back at Apple -- and critics of France -- in defending the country's proposed law on digital audio interoperability. In comments to reporters
while visiting San Francisco, Lagarde declared that when "a company
restricts competition ... it gets the attention of regulating agencies. We have to play by the rules of the game."
Of course, it can be argued that Apple hasn't restricted competition, given the fact that there are a number of other
companies operating online music stores and making digital audio players -- and that France is attempting to change the
rules mid-game. Lagarde also had a message for those who have criticized French policies on the Apple issue and other
recent developments: "I don't want the crap," she said.
"It annoys me when France is portrayed as an awkward, backward country. It is not." Touché.
France not backwards? France accusing someone else of anti-competetive, anti-capitalistic meddling? That's rich.
"It annoys me when France is portrayed as an awkward, backward country. It is not."
It is so. :-p
Just goes to show the backwardedness of the country when they fail to see the truth about France being a backward country. Typical French reaction. Don't mind that they wreack havock in their own country but please fence it in so the rest of the world isn't harmed.
apple should hire a bunch of french people then fire them the next day, just to piss them off. and that bitch needs to shut up and eat some cheese. besides, in 5 years, france will be no more, it will be francistan.
France finally grows some balls. It's only a matter of time Apple will be force to open up iTunes to other mp3 players.
American people are proud to be cowboys!!!!
In France we forgot cows for a while !!!!
you're just peasants !!!!
More than likely, Apple will just not sell within France.
The record companies will not allow Apple to sell those songs without the DRM.
I'm sorry, but I thought this was a good thing - what the french are trying to do. In the end its all about us, the consumers.
So many people busting on France so much of the time. None of you weren't alive during World War II, so what gives? Too much nutty TV?
Seems like France is on your side in this issue. You just want to call names? Boring.
"French Trade Minister Christine Lagarde has hit back at Apple -- and critics of France -- in defending the company's proposed law on digital audio interoperability."
The company's proposed law? How sneaky on Apple part... Did they bought France?
Jokes aside I still think this law is over stated, it isn't that big a deal. Apple can easily create an AAC-to-Mp3 converter that only works when you connect Player A or B. It still would be more awkward than an iPod. Feance may be awkward by the way, but they are not backwards by any stretch of the imagination.
" None of you weren't alive during World War II, so what gives?"
My head hurts trying to even understand this sentence. None of you wern't alive ...I think that means all of us were alive? Hmmm.... even so, what is the point about WWII? I think you are trying to make some point, but obviously need some history lessons or something first.
Now that is boring.
France is an awkward and backward country... quit picking on Apple and go trade more food for oil!
"It annoys me when France is portrayed as an awkward, backward country. It is not."
Indeed, you can always tell that a country isn't backward or awkward when its youth have riots because they can be fired now. Reasonable hiring and firing practices are for losers.
I love Marc Perton's logic here. "Of course, it can be argued that Apple hasn't restricted competition, given the fact that there are a number of other companies operating online music stores and making digital audio players --"
So apparently, Microsoft never restricted competition either. After all, there were several other OS options available to me at the time.
France is very backwards. They have high unemployment then protest when the gov't attempts to alleviate that problem. Then their are successful in their protest, the gov't pulls out that part of the law, and they protest some more. All the while they guarantee no company will every hire anyone under age 26. That's backwards.
They also burn cars at a rate of 100 per night when they aren't protestiting. That's just fucking odd.
Nice job France! At least somebody cared for consumer rights.... Apple doens't have any rights to protect their music... we as consumers have all the rights to do anything with all that music....
How can you say that a country where no one uses deodorant and the women dont shave their armpits isnt backwards!!!
How come nobody is calling for Microsoft to open up Windows Media video?
While I do think France is a backwards and awkward country I actually agree with them on this one. Though I am very inclined to disagree just because it is france.
I think where France is heading is a good thing. From what I can tell they are trying to head off Apple from gaining so much market share that they can use anti-competetive tactics on the media companies... a la what Microsoft was sued for in the pc market. Being a conservative American, it's not often I side with France's take on things but they seem to me to be on the side of the consumer on this one.
Unfortunately, this place has become a fighting ground among supporters and opponents of France. We are forgetting the main issue and has turned it into a political battle. Microsoft is facing similar problem with European union and soon Apple may have similar problem with some other European countries. What we have to understand is that law is different in different countries and there should be a universal code about new inventions. Hurling abuse can benefit no one.
At least us Americans can watch with enjoyment as France's socialist nanny state slips further and further towards becoming the first third world country in Europe.(in a long time at least)
Somebody hand me a beer please
just remember the only "side" that France is on is France's
They live in a state of delusion where they think france actually still matters.
Tomtom, nr 6, dude, try to look at the facts just for once and see the errors in your statement. Besides, not everybody here is American. I myself for instance am Dutch, live in Paris (!), watch French TV regularly (talking about nutty TV, nr 9, DG, start watching your own channels and be silent forever) and am amazed every day at the French attitude.
Oh, Charlie, there are definitely good things to say about France. Women shave their armpits nowadays for instance. And then you've got the... uhhh... wait... I'll think of something... now let's see... ;-)
finally france does something right!
mac does xp, time for itunes to do all other mp3 players
it's interesting to see all of the comments about this being pro-consumer. these people are missing the point: this seemingly consumer-centric law is completely anti-competitive. when apple pulls out of the french market (i hope they do), consumers are left worse off. sure, it'd be *nice* if there was no such thing as drm, but restricting a private company from smart/neccessary business practices only screws the consumer in the end.
SemiLoose, (NR 24)
I am assuming that when you say "finally france does something right!" you are referring to EG's (n23) statement that the french women finally shave their armpits?
"Nice job France! At least somebody cared for consumer rights.... Apple doens't have any rights to protect their music... we as consumers have all the rights to do anything with all that music...."
Oh, see, you're wrong there. Apple has all the rights to protect their music. You may not like it, but then you don't have to buy it. You buy a file from Apple that has DRM in it and also happens to have music data in it, you're not buying the songyou're not buying the full rights to the song or anything like that. People should understand the difference between an AAC from iTMS and a CD.
I don't particularly agree with what the French are trying to do here, but that response is awesome!
Fishes,
narco.
Let's see, France is a part of the EU. So when France forces iTunes to open their catalog to other MP3 players (a good thing when you think about it), the other EU states will follow.
In another EU state, the UK, when Apple Corp wins its lawsuit against Apple's trademark infringement that will effect iTunes in other EU countries as well.
Look what happened when Microsoft lost its case in the EU...they had to release a special version of Windows for Europe. I can see Apple having to release a EU specific version of iTunes which does not reference the Apple name AND will not require proprietary hardware to access. Apple will still get their 99 cents but will be able to collect it from more people.
"Just goes to show the backwardedness of the country when they fail to see the truth about France being a backward country. Typical French reaction. Don't mind that they wreack havock in their own country but please fence it in so the rest of the world isn't harmed."
Tober tried: "I love Marc Perton's logic here. "Of course, it can be argued that Apple hasn't restricted competition, given the fact that there are a number of other companies operating online music stores and making digital audio players --"
So apparently, Microsoft never restricted competition either. After all, there were several other OS options available to me at the time."
They killed Netscape, pressured OEM manufacturers into excluding competing software, butchered Java, rewarded firms for promoting IE, etc. They abused monopoly power.
Apple created the pay per download music market. Since iTunes' inception, their business model has remained the same. Because of iTunes' success, the rest of the world jumped on board and now Apple needs to open up?!! Gimme a break!
The French are a bunch of losers. Their citizens aren't rioting because their precious iTunes music won't play on their precious iRiver.
This "B" may not "want the crap" but she deserves it.
gosh_d made a good point: "this seemingly consumer-centric law is completely anti-competitive. when apple pulls out of the french market (i hope they do), consumers are left worse off"
If Apple pulls out, will the French government support the iPod users who now have NO compatibility? Will they FORCE Napster to open up to Mac users and the iPod?
"So apparently, Microsoft never restricted competition either. After all, there were several other OS options available to me at the time."
Tobor, the difference is that MS basically strongarmed hardware vendors. Apple IS the hardware vendor. They can do what ever they want really. Apple is unique in the fact that it sells its own hardware, creates its own software and OS, and runs its own content distribution.
All of this whining is disgusting. It is a free market and will be driven by consumers. If consumers find the fact that they cannot fill their Creative Zen from iTunes that annoying, the market will eventually reflect that.
We do not live in a communist society. Apple has been sucessful with the iPod and their business model. Since when has success become a punishable offense?
How is the iPod/iTunes link ANY different then the mac/OSX link?
You have to buy an iPod to get iTunes to "work" with it.
You have to buy a mac to get OS X to "work" with it.
You have to buy Apple hardware to use Apple software. It's that simple. If you don't like it, then go elsewhere.
[quote]21. At least us Americans can watch with enjoyment as France's socialist nanny state slips further and further towards becoming the first third world country in Europe.(in a long time at least)[/quote]
I'm still waiting for OPEC to change to Euros. Turning the US into a third world country overnight. Or when there is no more oil.
Typical French arrogance. France is all but a third-world country and is fast sliding that way. They want to believe they are still relavant to the rest of the world.
hoo hoooo, apple lovers v frenchies!
one lot are irrational, style driven ponces that wouldn't do well in a ruck, and the other are..erm.. ah.
#13 Arthur Barnhouse - You should actually read about the French labor law before you post saying it was trying to create fair hiring/firing practices. To me, being able to fire an employee unconditionally in the first two years doesn't seem exactly fair.
#17 Great argument. Clear and to the point. Clearly you only rely on facts when making your judgements.
If this law would affect all of EU, Apple couldn't just stop selling music ei EU, the market is too big to lose.
To hell with the French; bunch of lazy ass, whiny socialist peasants!. Pull Itunes out of France; let them go F**K themselves and deal with more riots. Shows how 'forward thinking' the french are...just ask the people beating and breaking the shit out of everything in site on their streets.
This can only be bad for the consumer. Apple uses iTunes as a tool to sell iPods. They have said publically to their shareholders that they never intended to make money with the iTunes store. If they force Apple to open up iTunes, chances are Apple will either just close down the service, or they'll start charging more for songs. For example, if the US government forced Apple to open iTMS here, maybe they would start selling songs for $1.29. God knows the record labels want them to.
I don't understand France's logic here, iTunes will allow you to take any CD (either one you have bought or a burned copy of music purchased through the iTMS) and rip it to the computer that will be 100% compatible with OTHER MP3 players. There is no anti-competition, this is not Microsoft IE v. Netscape, this is a private company who has created the delivery platform (iTMS) for a third party product (music). The third party is demanding DRM, not Apple, and to top it off each and every person who buys a song on the iTMS agrees to the terms governing the download and accompanying DRM.
So France is not helping anyone and only once again showing their ignorance to free enterprise and capitalism. Next we'll hear the French gov't wants to mandate free downloads or price controls on iTMS products (if Apple doesn't leave the French market, which I think they will do).
To chad,
I live in Washington state. Here, companies are able to fire-at-will WHENEVER. No two year period, just whenever.
I think it makes perfect sense. If I'm a good worker, then I'll generate revenue for the company. If I'm doing that, then they logically shouldn't fire me. If I start losing money for the company then they should.
Logical exceptions are in cases of discrimination. However, in the US legal system you're innocent until proven guilty. Thus, the burden of proof should be held on the employee, not the company.
I am from sweden, and i have to say that a lot of you americans are incedibly stupid. this law is about making music usage open, which is what we all want, right?
And, another thing, people who think france is a backwards country should take a look at the US. you ignore the UN, refuse to pay your member fees to the WHO. Do you realy think that you should rule the world by yourself? these organisations are about the world beeing ruled by the world and not the US, and you spit in thier face!
talk about beeing backwards!
I'm glad France has finally realized that you should be able to, ya know, use the stuff you buy. It's about time. I just wish the rest of the world could figure it out.
"They killed Netscape, pressured OEM manufacturers into excluding competing software, butchered Java, rewarded firms for promoting IE, etc. They abused monopoly power.
Apple created the pay per download music market. Since iTunes' inception, their business model has remained the same. Because of iTunes' success, the rest of the world jumped on board and now Apple needs to open up?!! Gimme a break!"
>> they're still a monopoly in the pay per download market - and do you really think Apple doesn't pressure music labels to use iTunes? not a chance! SJ is the man setting the 99c pricing, NOT the labels (this has been well reported: just google it up). even (or even especially) since Apple created the market. you can't have your cake and eat it.
"Tobor, the difference is that MS basically strongarmed hardware vendors. Apple IS the hardware vendor. They can do what ever they want really. Apple is unique in the fact that it sells its own hardware, creates its own software and OS, and runs its own content distribution."
>> and Apple is strong arming the record labels and the consumers.
"this is a private company who has created the delivery platform (iTMS) for a third party product (music). The third party is demanding DRM, not Apple, and to top it off each and every person who buys a song on the iTMS agrees to the terms governing the download and accompanying DRM."
>> not so simple. Apple created, for what was quite some time (about 3 years now methinks), the only way for people to download songs legally. and Apple controls the entire process - not only iTMS but ALSO the iPod, which ALSO happens to have quite a monopoly on the music player market. sure, if you look at iTMS only, you're technically correct. but the implications are broader.
i know France is a weird country (to me!) and i think market forces would eventually have opened Apple up, especially with several viable alternatives out there. but i think the law is generally sound, especially as - don't forget - it affects EVERYBODY not just Apple.
The French government are in the wrong in my opinion. Apple created iTunes to work solely with the iPod. My iriver mp3 software doesn't work with the iPod, it shouldn't be opened up. iTunes was made for the iPod, just because it was successful, doesn't mean it needs to be available to everyone. I may not have thought this all through, but is there a real reason they are even bothering doing this? No one is going to be hurt if everything stays the same, they've been OK since itunes first came out. The reason iTunes is so popular is because the iPod is so popular. You ask all the recent iPod rookies, none of them know about any of the iriver or creative products, but they know the ipod because everyone has it. Apple did a great job at making the iPod interesting to a mainstream audience, and now they should be punished? Geez...
Im sorry, but i have to write some more.
I america, if i dont get a job, i almost have to starve to death (a little exagurated). in france, sweden, norway, if i dont get a job, i get help from the gov. if i cant pay my medical bills, i dont have to walk around and slowly rot to death, i get help!
There is a reason why norway and sweden are the two highest ranked on the UN humanitarian index.
you americans, sure, you might have competition and capitalism and all of that, but drive out to the poor areas, the projects and you see the backside of it. do you want to have the lowest price, or lowest GINI coefficient?
France is right to complain, and Apple is right to stonewall them.
@33:
The difference is that OS X is Apple's content, but the music sold on the iTunes store is not. Limiting Apple's content to Apple's devices is totally reasonable, especially when the performance of the content is at least partially dependent on tight hardware integration.
Limiting a musician's content to Apple's hardware, even when sold through an Apple-owned and Apple-promoted channel, is less defensible. What are the consumer-visible "features" of FairPlay AAC DRM versus the "features" of other DRM schemes? There aren't any. The principle feature of a DRM scheme vs. another is only visible on the Microsoft/Apple side of the equation: the security side is (at this point) a red herring; cross-format incompatibility IS the featureset.
The strange (and somewhat damning) part of this is that by refusing to license FairPlay to other companies, or to support PlaysForSure on the iPod or in iTunes.app, Apple is revealing some lack of faith in the basic iPod design and features.
To those of you who scrutinize every device's battery life, etc, that makes some sense. But from a gut-level product desirability standpoint, the pandora's box of iPod demand is wide open and not in danger of closing. Apple could license FairPlay, support PlaysForSure, and still rule the online music business and consumer mp3 player markets. For once, they're the VHS and everyone else is the Betamax.
So why is it okay for Apple to stonewall on this? Because for the time being, their engineers have bigger shit to worry about than making PlaysForSure work on the iPod, or accepting a deluge of FairPlay implementation support questions from iRiver and whoever else comes knocking for a FairPlay license.
If people are still complaining 10 quarters from now (and they will be), maybe it'll be time for Apple to give a little.
Ehm this is a good move from France, if you ask me, finnaly, free your iTunes bought songs!
France backwards? wtf deffenetly not. While France wreaks havok inside it's contry, it doesn't go to other contry and fuck everything up, US ?
French people whine about laws alot, but they don't get non-scence shit ran over them.
US people like driving SUV's in a metropol, how f***ing practical and forwarding is that!
Ehm... lemme think of the US president, try installing democracy in Iraq... pretty much fails, endeted the contry more than any other president, handling "homeland security" like a toast, doing shit for New Orleans and for some reason, he still governing the contry! Oh yeah other nice point, the US president could have put more funding in hydrogen cell research instead of going overseas to pretend spreading democracy
I think I'll stop now before I break your egos...
There are a lot of people missing the point here. The issue isn't about Apple applying DRM to its iTunes music store files, it's the fact that it won't allow it's format to be used by other MP3 players. If I buy a WMA-enabled player I can choose from several different companies for my hardware and there are several different web sites that sell WMA music, with DRM by the way. I can't do that with Apple. I have one choice of hardware and one choice of hardware.
Imagine if, when Sony invented the cassette tape, it only played back on Sony-brand players and you could only buy the pre-recorded albums at only Sony-owned stores. Why is that a good thing?
Sure, Apple should be able to protect it's own interests, but they could be making a lot more money by getting a royalty cut on their Music format if it opened it up to other sites to sell it. Given the option, other sites would jump on this, because the iPod has such great market penetration. As for the hardware, the iPod is still the best player out there, that should be enough for them to keep selling them. Sony's walkman, though not the only cassette player on the market, lead the category for years, even though there were other companies making players.
This is exactly what I was saying to you in a previous post which you railed against. It often only takes the appearance of restricting competition.
Many cheered the lawsuit against MS but the fine line between the actions of the 2 companies is that Apple isn't yet as dominant in the music distribution market as MS was/is in the OS market. Had they been they would have been in a courtroom with Samsung right now. And no doubt like many of MS's customers did Samsung would have claimed that they were simply strongarmed by Apple. Every one of the vendors who rolled on MS were clamoring for MS's business until it started to look bad.
Apple skated the edge with the Samsung deal. They used their market dominance to cut competitors off from component supplies so they could get their player to market before them. I would say since they backed out when an investigation started they may have learned something from MS's problems.
G Snyder
My monopoly partner, good to see you. ;) My last moment #50 (if it stays #50) was partially directed at you. Fight the good fight G
#46 - You obviously have no clue about America or the welfare system here. Where else can the poor have multiple TVs, buy whatever food they want, have a car, and not have to worry about getting a job? There are also plenty of laws describing how you can't walk into a medical facility and be refused treatment. This is why the welfare system is a disaster. Instead of helping people to be self-sufficient and have some dignity and self-respect, they are treated like retards by the state. And most people would choose to remain lazy if they are given the opportunity. France is the perfect example. Low productivity? Just decrease the number of hours worked in a week. Can't get qualified people into the job market because people can't be fired for being lazy scum? Leave them there, and riot if anyone requires you to work.
As for Norway and Sweden, yeah, let's move there because the UN (oil-for-food, raping civilians in Africa, ignoring Darfur, Tibet, etc.) says it is swell. This is the same organization that has a "Human Rights Commission" with Cuba, Libya, China, and Syria as main players. Norway and Sweden with their negative birthrates and extremely high taxes may be a wonderland of stylishly functional furniture and boxy cars, but for people it isn't as friendly.
France doesn't get competition, and they never will. Also, they REJECTED the EU constitution in a referendum (maybe they aren't so dumb and backwards after all)...
I am very proud to be French when I saw how most of you are bashing us with your rude language. Learn the respect, discuss, use (if possible) your brain and learn tolerance. And don't worry with cheese, baguette, beret and Tour Eiffel and tralalala. In your mind we are a backward country :) , use Internet next time to open your eyes on the world instead of gesticulating like most for you do.
Only 15 % of french people are in favor of the actual government so think different ,
regards,
wow, guys, where's all the france bashing coming from?
i expect it from the brits, but from us americans?
i hope the people eager to make the easy "france is backards" joke aren't losing site of the real issue here:
#5 is right on - france is showing some major gutsiness by standing up to apple. the ipod is the hands-down "king of the hill" when it comes to audio players, for both sexiness and usability. but that doesn't give apple the right to take the stance they've taken on DRM. their refusal to liscense aac to other manufacturer's (which would increase music sales on iTunes) is just wrong.
as everyone knows, apple's approach is different. they don't give their customers a wide array of options. instead they make a few good products and rely upon their marketing people to identify who their customer is. well, in this case they've decided that their customers are people who don't care about FAIR USE and won't stand up for what is rightully theirs. that's a shitty thing to say about your customers.
france is standing up for consumer rights. they're not calling for an end to DRM; that's merely a threat to encourage apple to liscense aac. if you value FAIR USE you should stand behind them.
All of you calling France backwards are a bunch of idiots. Have you been to France? Can you appreciate real culture, great food, fine wine and stimulating intellectual debate as found on french TV (not dumb ABC/NBC/CBS sound-bites)? I'm an american living in Europe and I can tell you I don't miss a damn thing about Amerika (except maybe Dunkins donuts:)... Vive la France!
referring to post #3:
"Just goes to show the backwardedness of the country when they fail to see the truth about France being a backward country."
yes: just like Americans fail to see the truth about how arrogant and ignorant they are...
#48 - France is a nation of cheese-eating surrender monkeys. Hmm, let's see, what has little France messed up? Morocco, Cote d'Ivoire, France? Yep, boy, that Iraq is a failure. Removed a brutal dictator from power who killed hundreds of thousands of his people, used chemical weapons on them and even Iranians. If you spoke out, they would come in, take your family in the middle of the night, rape your wife and daughters while you watched, kill your children, and then let you die a miserable death. Happened over and over again. They supported terror, wanted to build WMD (don't believe it? see the captured docs). And what did the little nation of France do? Give them money for oil! Build bunkers for Saddam! Give him weapons, and WMD manufacturing gear! France has one of the worst economies in Europe - even some of the old Eastern Bloc countries have better economies. Yes, little Frenchman, your Age of Reason has helped you to become a world player! A petulant, car-burning world player who doesn't like people who speak English, but a world-player nonetheless! Give yourself a pat on the back!
You guys are still missing the main point here! French people as a general rule dont use deodorant!!! Think about that next time you are in Paris in July and are getting on an elevator!
Open formats! What a fantastic idea, but don't you think that this applies to every other category of information--Word documents...--format? What is "backwards" is not looking at the purpose of the law. It's like implementing an emissions tax on propane powered forklifts, and ignoring every other type of "gas" powered machinery.
I love how this has turned into a France-bashing war. France has problems- I'll give you that. But randomly, needlessly bashing them is doing no one any good. And I love how we as a people are so quick to point out what we assume are "flaws" in another society, yet completely ignore all the problems facing us here at home. I am scared as to the direction America is heading, and for the first and only time in my life, I am ashamed to call myself an American.
If we (Americans) built the greatest country on earth out of arrogance and ignorance, then I have to say damn thats good.
France does nothing. They French don't even like to fight for themselves. They have to have the French Forgien legance or w/e (the group that has non-French people go fight for France). French people should worry bout their own government before critizing others. Massive riots...I wanna move to france definetaly.
Now France wants wants the US to intervene in Iran. I personnally hope the US doesn't go in and makes France do something for a change. Hell, France could employ those people rioting in their army. Give them a job at least.
And to whomever said the liberal garbage about our welfare system. F*** welfare. Be lazy, do nothing, and still get paid. Have lots of kids and get more. Thats what I want my taxes going for.
j_o'f-
"I am scared as to the direction America is heading, and for the first and only time in my life, I am ashamed to call myself an American."
Wait, wait, wait. You're ok through the war in Irag and Afganistan, through Bushe's policies, through Katrina, and then you get on a website, and now your ashamed of being an American?!?
You need some help if some forum posts can do that to you.
#43 ""Tobor, the difference is that MS basically strongarmed hardware vendors. Apple IS the hardware vendor. They can do what ever they want really. Apple is unique in the fact that it sells its own hardware, creates its own software and OS, and runs its own content distribution."
>> and Apple is strong arming the record labels and the consumers."
Davit - how has Apple strongarmed recording companies? I am not sure how they have done that?
Everyone seems to forget that there are other music stores out there. There is competition.
Just check out the Sherman Anti-Trust act. Some of you might not have the attention span, but just try and read it. You can view it online.
Has anyone complaining about itunes actually used it?
In regards to the iTMS, I don't understand why France or anyone would have a problem with this. Why aren't they going after MS for not allowing me to be able to pay WMA on my computer if it's so important to them.
Since I can't use WMA, does anyone else know if I can use DRM'ed WMA files on more than one computer without a problem? Can I stream it to other computers and listen to it? Is it as flexible as the DRM that Apple provides?
Again, if you don't agree with the terms of agreement don't buy the song.
You do NOT need to buy music from the itunes music store to put music on your ipod OR to even use itunes. Again I ask if anyone has actually used itunes because people don't seem to understand how it works. It's a music player with an embedded store. It was always a music player first and organizer first.
I'm sure an individual with another player could use music they've got organized in itunes with another player without a problem.
"I'm still waiting for OPEC to change to Euros. Turning the US into a third world country overnight. Or when there is no more oil."
Yeah i'm still waiting for oil to run out considering we will probrably be driving hydrogen cars while you guys are still trying to figure out how to drive your cars without oil. Stupid smartass and your stupid backward country.
This is starting te look like a ping-pong game: French vs Americans. Which is fun and I heartily joined in, but in the end it leads nowhere of course.
Both are to blame equally for messed up international relationships. The French whished they were the world power the US is nowadays and tries to meddle in everything it can. The US plainly tries to dictate to the chagrin of most of the world.
Economically, however, France is pretty backwards and needs the EU to finance its faulty economy, which stings in the Scandinavian countries and the Netherlands and Germany: why should they finance France's total denial for a need to change and lack of entrepreneurship? France could really really really learn something from the US in this aspect. The other way around, the US could learn something from the French love of cuisine, arts and culture.
In the end, because of their malfunctioning economic system, I find it hard to believe they have the right viewpoint on this iTunes DRM thing. Haven't made up my mind though, just find it hard to believe the French on anything economically.
I know that metaphors are generally fairly faulty, but I'll throw out a few:
Companies make software that only works on X86 architectures all of the time. Furthermore, how much software is developed specifically for Windows? Does that mean that we should *demand* that software companies compile for all operating systems?
Auto makers are *still* making cars with manual transmissions. However, a good majority of people really want to see the feature of automatic transmissions on their cars. Should we make that a requirement of auto manufacturers? What about heated seats? We all want those. Let's make it law.
Apple made the hardware and the software that work together, just like they've done with OS X. Do I want Apple to open up their DRM? Sure, that'd be nice, but as a consumer I don't find it that big of a deal. If I did, I'd act with my wallet.
"Open formats! What a fantastic idea, but don't you think that this applies to every other category of information--Word documents...--format?"
>> good point but irrelevant here. France IS NOT asking for open formats - not by a country mile. they are asking for interopability. that's a completely different thing. and yes, there are many programs that read and write MS Word files :)
"Davit - how has Apple strongarmed recording companies? I am not sure how they have done that?"
>> as an e.g., http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1510065/20050921/story.jhtml
i'm glad i'm in Asia and can thus circumvent the whole France vs USA (with a smattering of European countries) tag match, lol
eboy
I haven't been following this very closely but if Apple is refusing to license its format then you're right that this is the main issue. And digital audio interoperability would seem to imply a format dispute.
Patents aren't simply a club to beat others over the head with. The forgotten part of the patent system is public interest which is why countries (sadly not the US) have compulsory licensing.
Patents are not about keeping an invention a secret for your private use. And btw Im an engineer with a few patents and get the occasional $.50 check for royalties. If you want to keep your invention a secret making it public with a patent is probably not going to help. A patent is an agreement with the government/citizens. Licensing is a win/win scenario thats good for the public and good for the company.
The people get a standard so that arent 10 incompatible choices. The company doesnt only collect royalties but ensure that their invention becomes standardized. And refusing to license does look pretty bad when later accused of restricting competition.
Wow. This has really degraded. I think it's time for Engadget to lock this one up.
Don't get me wrong, when I visit Europe I prefer to go to France. But I do have to agree that their legal structure in regards to this type of stuff is back asswords right now.
Don't forget that france is forcing their citizen's to listen to music at a certain maximum level. I think it's has to be under 100dB for it to enter the country and if it's not you have to put a nice big ugly permanent warning label on the device. If somebody wants to blow their ears out let them do it. We are all responsible people, it's our responsibility to know and learn when something is harming us. Heck Apple see's the issue as well and has developed a solution that consumers can choose to use or not by making their own responsible decision.
As for this whole opening up the iTunes Store thing. I say, Apple should pull the service out of the country. Let France figure out how they are going to support the millions of iPod owners that now can't purchase music online because of the new law. Forcing a company to open it's system to others that was designed specifically for hardware that they also own is a terrible idea. Apple created the iTunes Music Store as another content source for the users of the iPod. Microsoft created Windows Media DRM which is what all the iTMS competitors, like Napster and Yahoo!, are using. You can get almost all the exact same music on Napster that you can get on iTMS.
Let's also not forget you can also always just go buy a CD and rip it into MP3 format for use on ANY MP3 player. Consumers are NOT up the creek without a paddle and forced to use the iTMS right now to acquire content. Content is available everywhere.
Now say if in 10 years iTMS puts the majority of the other online music stores out of business as well as the brick-and-morter Music Stores. Then it will have a monopoly on the music content distribution business. But right now the percentage of people buying content digitally versus CD, well let's just say the CD is still the king. In my opinion it will continue to be for quite some time. When digital distibution is king and if Apple still has a 70+% strong hold on that distibution system then that's a monopoly issue to deal with.
Until then I think, france should get their head out of their a#! and wipe.
Paolo, how are you "breaking our egos"? True, America has a lot of crap wrong with it; what country doesn't? What "contry" are you from? I'm sure your government has it's own share of crap going on.
Eboy, I totally agree that it would be cool if Apple opened up to a more public DRM, but they are a company, and their goal first and foremost is to make money. They are making a lionshare of their recent stock upsurge through their musicstore, not through iPod sales. The iPod was the bait, but the store is the hook. By opening their DRM, they would stand to lose a HUGE share of their market domination of online sales. They are going to keep doing what they are doing until it isn't profitable anymore.
az_runner has made a good point.
You can listen to mp3's on any player that supports them, ipods and others included.
Why don't other mp3 players support AAC files? They're standard?
If it's really an issue for France, why don't they create a universal DRM for all downloadable music stores that do business in France and force and stores to use that format if they wish to do business there. Problem solved.
Anyone who doesn't wish to support the format, packs up and leaves. It's that simple.
some poster from earlier in the thread said:
"You have to buy an iPod to get iTunes to 'work' with it."
NO YOU DON'T!! This is one of the main fallacies that iPod bashers keep repeating, and it's flatly false. You don't need an iPod to buy and play music from the iTunes Music Store. You don't even need a Mac -- iTunes and the iTMS can be used on Windows.
How is Apple's system "proprietary" when you don't even need a Mac or an iPod to access it?
THANK YOU NICK.
So many ignorant and naive people. Funny, really...
I've been reading Engadget for some time, but this is the first time I've been persuaded to comment. My response is lengthy, but Svante Richter's rant (#43 & #47) can't go without a rebuttal. :)
#43: "I am from sweden, and i have to say that a lot of you americans are incedibly stupid. this law is about making music usage open, which is what we all want, right?"
First of all, I'm not American. I'm from Scandinavia like you, but nevertheless I'm amazed you've got the guts to call others stupid while your own comments are as ludicrous as they get. Maybe that's to be expected when Sweden has been run by the Socialists since the 1930s with little interruption. But you could try tuning your TV to something else than SVT, the Swedish state broadcaster.
While U.S. has problems like every country, your allegations are absurd. Not only that, they also lack any logic. I don't have the time to sort them all, that would take all night. Therefore, I've chosen some of the worst for the sake of illustration.
"And, another thing, people who think france is a backwards country should take a look at the US. you ignore the UN, refuse to pay your member fees to the WHO. Do you realy think that you should rule the world by yourself? these organisations are about the world beeing ruled by the world and not the US, and you spit in thier face!"
Apparently you've succumbed to groupthink after being bombarded with anti-U.S. propaganda all your life. How about thinking for yourself and considering what the U.N. is and whether it really is a solution to every problem. You should realize that while U.N. has its function, its only an organization, not an end in itself. And as every organization, it can be used for good or bad, and can only be as great as the sum of its parts.
Please try to put aside your reflexive anti-Americanism and understand that the world is a tough place. And the chinas of the world are a lot worse than the U.S. of your nighmares, which if something your countrymen understood during the Cold War. That's why they had a secret pact with NATO in case of a Soviet invasion. It's easy to be a loudmouth when someone else does the dirty work for you.
Lets then have a look at the logic of your argument that the "world should be ruled by the world and not the U.S.". Who is this "world" ? How is the U.S. ruling the "world" ? Isn't the U.S. part of the "world" ? If the U.S. is part of the "world", isn't it only wielding its weight in geopolitics? If so, isn't the "world" then ruling itself optimally as the U.S. can only use as much power as it has. But if only one country can cause a situation where the "world" isn't ruling the "world", how can it ever rule itself? I suppose this is hard to follow, but so is your logic.
Even if the U.S. withdrew from the world stage, how would you achieve a situation where "world" ruled the "world" ? There is no autonomous world, only independent actors utilizing power derived from their constituents. Sometimes that is acquired democratically (i.e. America, Europe), sometimes through repression (i.e. China). You can't cherrypick the good ones to take care of the world. Also the chinas of the world would have a say and make the world a living hell for all of us. You can see that with the U.N. Human Rights Commission, which has such strong advocated of individual liberty as Sudan and Saudi-Arabia, just to name a few.
Apparently you have a dream of a world government with wise men sitting in a tall building and making enlightened decisions. I wish I had such a positive view of the human character. If there ever was a world government, it would inevitably lead to tyranny. That's because government has monopoly to the use of force and as world government by definition would have no counterweight, its power would be absolute. And nothing corrupts more than absolute power, as we know. Also keep in mind that not everyone agrees with the Western concept of representative government.
I think it's better not to have all your apples in the same casket, but instead have several governments which are as close to people as possible. Even then government shouldn't be making decisions for their citizens, but instead ensuring a stable environment where companies and individuals can peaceful matter their own businesses. Such an individualistic approach can be tough to grasp for a Swede conditioned to a nanny state, but you can do it. As said, I'm from Scandinavia too.
TO SUM IT UP: The world could be a lot worse. Not always have we had such a benevolent superpower as America. Just think how things would be if we replaced U.S. with China. Then we wouldn't be having this free exchange of ideas as state censors would've already taken Engadget down for subversive content. Ok, maybe I'm exaggerating: there wouldn't even be internet, as communism isn't known for its innovativeness.
#47 "I america, if i dont get a job, i almost have to starve to death (a little exagurated). in france, sweden, norway, if i dont get a job, i get help from the gov. if i cant pay my medical bills, i dont have to walk around and slowly rot to death, i get help!
There is a reason why norway and sweden are the two highest ranked on the UN humanitarian index. you americans, sure, you might have competition and capitalism and all of that, but drive out to the poor areas, the projects and you see the backside of it. do you want to have the lowest price, or lowest GINI coefficient?"
You don't have a clue about the U.S. welfare system as Zip Zip pointed out. Just because leftist politicians tell horror stories about American capitalism, it doesn't make them true. Think about this: What if Swedish politicians use disinformation to make sure nothing changes and they remain in power? A frightening thought isn't it and not far from truth. It is obvious that leftists object any reform as a free-market approach would inevitably lead to a diminishing role for state planners. And when the bureacrats prosper, you lose.
Anti-Americanism is useful tool for a politician when you need to focus your subjects's attention to external issues to keep them from noticing domestic problems. As much of Europe, Sweden would be wise to pay more attention to her own troubles instead of lecturing America.
After all, the U.S. is still the most successful country in the world history. By contrast there is no comparison to Sweden when it comes to losing ground in the OECD Prosperity Ranking. In 1970 the country was the 5th wealthiest, but by 2003 Sweden had fallen to 14th place. If I was a Swedish socialist, I would also do my best to distract voters from noticing such alarming developments. And what would be more trendy than demonize America. But as a Swedish citizen, you'll be advised to see through such propaganda and try to figure out what's wrong with your country instead of worrying about America's poor.
Btw: Kinda strange isn't it that during the free-fall of the past 30 years, Sweden has been ruled by Social Democrats. Coincidence?
And is Swedish health care really that excellent? Please keep in mind that the government doesn't pay your medical bills, you do. That's why you pay half your income in taxes. But are you really getting your money's worth? Unfortunately in most countries with socialized health care, supply doesn't meet demand. Result is that those who must use state-run hospitals sometimes need to wait for months before getting treatment and too often die in waiting. Those who've got money left after taxes get a private insurance and seek for treatment in private hospitals. In effect they pay twice for quality care: first government for services they don't use and then private company for real service. That's fair, isn't it?
It's worrying that in U.S. some Democrats would like to create a similar state-run health service. And it seems that some Americans are led to believe it works. I can tell that it doesn't and U.S. would be wise to stick to the privatized system and fix it instead of replacing it with a much worse alternative.
You also suggest that Americans should drive out to the poor areas. Why don't you try that for yourself in Sweden? As you know, Sweden has serious problems integrating its huge immigrant population to the society. In effect they've been marginalized and the young are being radicalized after being left out of the society. Just think of Malm?ere some parts of the city are practically run by radical muslims. What else can you cay when emergency services are refusing to enter them for fear of being attacked by gangs. Or how about Rinkeby where cars burn like in France? If U.S. had segregation in the 1960s, Sweden faces the same issue today.
Yeah, I suppose its frightening to for once consider your own problems instead of someone else's.
dt, long post. As an American, thank you.
ed-
Whatever...they make great pastry.
Nick, you quoted me, and completely out of context BTW. Good Job!
I was saying that it's just like the OS X/mac connection. You need a mac to run OS X. In the same way, if you want to use a digital media player with iTunes, you need an iPod. I use that as an example of the Apple business model. They're a hardware company that makes software for their hardware.
We're supporting the same side of the argument, but don't quote out of context.
Zip Zip -
Iraq is a total failure for now. I hope US does something to fix it.
US replaced the dictator with a religious leader, there is not a secular goverment in Iraq. So women have even less rights than they used to have before.
Also US was the country who gave Iraq chemical weapons to be used against its own people and Iran.
Bush lied to you about WMD and terror. They were just some stories made up by the goverment. If you are watching anything other than conservative media you must have already heard that.
There are some terrorist organizations in Iraq because Iraqian goverment can not control the country after the Gulf War. However support for religious terrorist groups like El Queda is very low in Iraq. Saddam is a dictator and those people don't really like to share power with other organizations. However now Iraq is a main weapon source for terrorist. US is distributing high tech weapons to Shiite and Kurdish militia and some of those groups have close ties with terrorist groups. Also both Kurds and Shiites have close ties with Iran and they find US partly responsible for the things Saddam did. So the next time terrorist attacks some US target they will be doing it by your own weapons.
US also killed 100.000+ people on Iraq. Torture is still there, maybe even on a large scale. Also people who spoke out are still tortured and killed. Hundreds of professors in Iraqian universities were assasinated by US and its shiite allies because they were against a religious regime.
So #of deaths and tortured people increased. Women has less rights. People who want democracy are still tortured and killed. And because US doing these instead of Saddam you call it an improvement.
CrAzY American12 - No one wants US to intervene in Iran. US is the only country who wants to intervene. Iran is still 10+ year away from building nuclear weapons and most countries want to solve problems diplomatically. Europe want some actions to be taken. To take actions means bombing in US but in Europe it means to put trade and visa restrictions. Nearly all countries made it clear that they are not going to support a military action. Iran is a much bigger and stronger country than Iraq and it is a major oil supplier for China. So things could become really complicated in near future is US does anything more than an air strike to nuclear plants.
I am currently living in Europe but I am neither European not American. For social security I think US system encourages people to work harder. I have some American friends and a lot of European friends. In my opinion Americans are much more hard working than Europeans. I live in Germany and although Germans are very disciplined all jobs that require long working hours or that pays a little money are done by immigrants. Most Germans are not willing to work in a job with more than 37 hours a week or less than 30 days of holiday every year. They would rather sit at home than working in McDonalds.
As long as the economy is going well social security system in US really encourages people to work harder, and to look for a job instead of sitting there taking money from the goverment. However now American economy is not as good as it was in Clinton's term, and social security changes made during that term were good for a growing economy but in todays condition a lot of Americans are suffering because of those changes. However those laws also helped US to grow fast and become the riches country in the world. Both systems have its strong and weak points but I believe no one is superior to the other.
And about the subject :) I believe Apple will have to allow other mp3 players to play DRM'edAAC files and ipod will support DRM'edWMA. If France passes that law EU will follow and EU is currently a bigger economy than US. Apple can't just leave such a market. Also in case it leaves that market Microsoft and its partners will be control the market. Apple already lost the computer market to PCs and Microsoft because of its intergrated business model... if it leaves the EU music market to Microsoft it won't be long before Microsoft comes and gets US music market from Apple. The difference between OSX-Mac and itunes-ipod is their market share.. itunes-ipod is hugely succesfull and has a big share because it is a great product combination. itunes users are not yet harmed by Apple's policy. But if lets say Sony comes up with a far superior mp3 player than ipod most people who have purchased music from Apple music store will be very disappointed.
1. France not backwards? France accusing someone else of anti-competetive, anti-capitalistic meddling? That's rich.
Posted at 9:45AM on Apr 14th 2006 by My name 0 stars
2. "It annoys me when France is portrayed as an awkward, backward country. It is not."
It is so. :-p
Posted at 9:45AM on Apr 14th 2006 by Whiplash 0 stars
3. Just goes to show the backwardedness of the country when they fail to see the truth about France being a backward country. Typical French reaction. Don't mind that they wreack havock in their own country but please fence it in so the rest of the world isn't harmed.
Posted at 9:48AM on Apr 14th 2006 by EG 0 stars
4. apple should hire a bunch of french people then fire them the next day, just to piss them off. and that bitch needs to shut up and eat some cheese. besides, in 5 years, france will be no more, it will be francistan.
Posted at 9:49AM on Apr 14th 2006 by asshole 0 stars
5. France finally grows some balls. It's only a matter of time Apple will be force to open up iTunes to other mp3 players.
Posted at 9:51AM on Apr 14th 2006 by DMT 0 stars
6. American people are proud to be cowboys!!!!
In France we forgot cows for a while !!!!
you're just peasants !!!!
Posted at 9:57AM on Apr 14th 2006 by tomtom 0 stars
7. More than likely, Apple will just not sell within France.
The record companies will not allow Apple to sell those songs without the DRM.
Posted at 9:57AM on Apr 14th 2006 by Pip 0 stars
8. I'm sorry, but I thought this was a good thing - what the french are trying to do. In the end its all about us, the consumers.
Posted at 9:57AM on Apr 14th 2006 by The oL 0 stars
9. So many people busting on France so much of the time. None of you weren't alive during World War II, so what gives? Too much nutty TV?
Seems like France is on your side in this issue. You just want to call names? Boring.
Posted at 10:01AM on Apr 14th 2006 by DG 0 stars
10. "French Trade Minister Christine Lagarde has hit back at Apple -- and critics of France -- in defending the company's proposed law on digital audio interoperability."
The company's proposed law? How sneaky on Apple part... Did they bought France?
Jokes aside I still think this law is over stated, it isn't that big a deal. Apple can easily create an AAC-to-Mp3 converter that only works when you connect Player A or B. It still would be more awkward than an iPod. Feance may be awkward by the way, but they are not backwards by any stretch of the imagination.
Posted at 10:05AM on Apr 14th 2006 by Alfredo Octavio 0 stars
11. " None of you weren't alive during World War II, so what gives?"
My head hurts trying to even understand this sentence. None of you wern't alive ...I think that means all of us were alive? Hmmm.... even so, what is the point about WWII? I think you are trying to make some point, but obviously need some history lessons or something first.
Now that is boring.
Posted at 10:13AM on Apr 14th 2006 by G. Snyder 0 stars
12. France is an awkward and backward country... quit picking on Apple and go trade more food for oil!
Posted at 10:13AM on Apr 14th 2006 by P! 0 stars
13. "It annoys me when France is portrayed as an awkward, backward country. It is not."
Indeed, you can always tell that a country isn't backward or awkward when its youth have riots because they can be fired now. Reasonable hiring and firing practices are for losers.
Posted at 10:15AM on Apr 14th 2006 by Arthur Barnhouse 0 stars
14. I love Marc Perton's logic here. "Of course, it can be argued that Apple hasn't restricted competition, given the fact that there are a number of other companies operating online music stores and making digital audio players --"
So apparently, Microsoft never restricted competition either. After all, there were several other OS options available to me at the time.
Posted at 10:16AM on Apr 14th 2006 by Tobor 0 stars
15. France is very backwards. They have high unemployment then protest when the gov't attempts to alleviate that problem. Then their are successful in their protest, the gov't pulls out that part of the law, and they protest some more. All the while they guarantee no company will every hire anyone under age 26. That's backwards.
They also burn cars at a rate of 100 per night when they aren't protestiting. That's just fucking odd.
Posted at 10:16AM on Apr 14th 2006 by LD 0 stars
16. Nice job France! At least somebody cared for consumer rights.... Apple doens't have any rights to protect their music... we as consumers have all the rights to do anything with all that music....
Posted at 10:18AM on Apr 14th 2006 by pabjvar 0 stars
17. How can you say that a country where no one uses deodorant and the women dont shave their armpits isnt backwards!!!
Posted at 10:18AM on Apr 14th 2006 by charlie 0 stars
18. While I do think France is a backwards and awkward country I actually agree with them on this one. Though I am very inclined to disagree just because it is france.
Posted at 10:21AM on Apr 14th 2006 by Daniel Clausen 0 stars
19. I think where France is heading is a good thing. From what I can tell they are trying to head off Apple from gaining so much market share that they can use anti-competetive tactics on the media companies... a la what Microsoft was sued for in the pc market. Being a conservative American, it's not often I side with France's take on things but they seem to me to be on the side of the consumer on this one.
Posted at 10:22AM on Apr 14th 2006 by P 0 stars
20. Unfortunately, this place has become a fighting ground among supporters and opponents of France. We are forgetting the main issue and has turned it into a political battle. Microsoft is facing similar problem with European union and soon Apple may have similar problem with some other European countries. What we have to understand is that law is different in different countries and there should be a universal code about new inventions. Hurling abuse can benefit no one.
Posted at 10:24AM on Apr 14th 2006 by Razib Ahmed 0 stars
21. At least us Americans can watch with enjoyment as France's socialist nanny state slips further and further towards becoming the first third world country in Europe.(in a long time at least)
Somebody hand me a beer please
Posted at 10:25AM on Apr 14th 2006 by Saluki 0 stars
22. just remember the only "side" that France is on is France's
They live in a state of delusion where they think france actually still matters.
Posted at 10:27AM on Apr 14th 2006 by charlie 0 stars
23. Tomtom, nr 6, dude, try to look at the facts just for once and see the errors in your statement. Besides, not everybody here is American. I myself for instance am Dutch, live in Paris (!), watch French TV regularly (talking about nutty TV, nr 9, DG, start watching your own channels and be silent forever) and am amazed every day at the French attitude.
Oh, Charlie, there are definitely good things to say about France. Women shave their armpits nowadays for instance. And then you've got the... uhhh... wait... I'll think of something... now let's see... ;-)
Posted at 10:33AM on Apr 14th 2006 by EG 0 stars
24. finally france does something right!
mac does xp, time for itunes to do all other mp3 players
Posted at 10:35AM on Apr 14th 2006 by SemiLOOSE 0 stars
25. it's interesting to see all of the comments about this being pro-consumer. these people are missing the point: this seemingly consumer-centric law is completely anti-competitive. when apple pulls out of the french market (i hope they do), consumers are left worse off. sure, it'd be *nice* if there was no such thing as drm, but restricting a private company from smart/neccessary business practices only screws the consumer in the end.
Posted at 10:35AM on Apr 14th 2006 by gosh_d 0 stars
26. SemiLoose, (NR 24)
I am assuming that when you say "finally france does something right!" you are referring to EG's (n23) statement that the french women finally shave their armpits?
Posted at 10:40AM on Apr 14th 2006 by charlie 0 stars
27. "Nice job France! At least somebody cared for consumer rights.... Apple doens't have any rights to protect their music... we as consumers have all the rights to do anything with all that music...."
Oh, see, you're wrong there. Apple has all the rights to protect their music. You may not like it, but then you don't have to buy it. You buy a file from Apple that has DRM in it and also happens to have music data in it, you're not buying the songyou're not buying the full rights to the song or anything like that. People should understand the difference between an AAC from iTMS and a CD.
Posted at 10:44AM on Apr 14th 2006 by Anatoli Papirovski 0 stars
28. I don't particularly agree with what the French are trying to do here, but that response is awesome!
Fishes,
narco.
Posted at 10:48AM on Apr 14th 2006 by narco 0 stars
29. Let's see, France is a part of the EU. So when France forces iTunes to open their catalog to other MP3 players (a good thing when you think about it), the other EU states will follow.
In another EU state, the UK, when Apple Corp wins its lawsuit against Apple's trademark infringement that will effect iTunes in other EU countries as well.
Look what happened when Microsoft lost its case in the EU...they had to release a special version of Windows for Europe. I can see Apple having to release a EU specific version of iTunes which does not reference the Apple name AND will not require proprietary hardware to access. Apple will still get their 99 cents but will be able to collect it from more people.
Posted at 10:49AM on Apr 14th 2006 by Torontoguy -1 stars
30. "Just goes to show the backwardedness of the country when they fail to see the truth about France being a backward country. Typical French reaction. Don't mind that they wreack havock in their own country but please fence it in so the rest of the world isn't harmed."
Posted at 10:52AM on Apr 14th 2006 by Emma 0 stars
31. Tober tried: "I love Marc Perton's logic here. "Of course, it can be argued that Apple hasn't restricted competition, given the fact that there are a number of other companies operating online music stores and making digital audio players --"
So apparently, Microsoft never restricted competition either. After all, there were several other OS options available to me at the time."
They killed Netscape, pressured OEM manufacturers into excluding competing software, butchered Java, rewarded firms for promoting IE, etc. They abused monopoly power.
Apple created the pay per download music market. Since iTunes' inception, their business model has remained the same. Because of iTunes' success, the rest of the world jumped on board and now Apple needs to open up?!! Gimme a break!
The French are a bunch of losers. Their citizens aren't rioting because their precious iTunes music won't play on their precious iRiver.
This "B" may not "want the crap" but she deserves it.
Posted at 10:55AM on Apr 14th 2006 by tank 0 stars
32. gosh_d made a good point: "this seemingly consumer-centric law is completely anti-competitive. when apple pulls out of the french market (i hope they do), consumers are left worse off"
If Apple pulls out, will the French government support the iPod users who now have NO compatibility? Will they FORCE Napster to open up to Mac users and the iPod?
Posted at 11:01AM on Apr 14th 2006 by tank 0 stars
33. "So apparently, Microsoft never restricted competition either. After all, there were several other OS options available to me at the time."
Tobor, the difference is that MS basically strongarmed hardware vendors. Apple IS the hardware vendor. They can do what ever they want really. Apple is unique in the fact that it sells its own hardware, creates its own software and OS, and runs its own content distribution.
All of this whining is disgusting. It is a free market and will be driven by consumers. If consumers find the fact that they cannot fill their Creative Zen from iTunes that annoying, the market will eventually reflect that.
We do not live in a communist society. Apple has been sucessful with the iPod and their business model. Since when has success become a punishable offense?
Posted at 11:02AM on Apr 14th 2006 by G. Snyder 0 stars
34. How is the iPod/iTunes link ANY different then the mac/OSX link?
You have to buy an iPod to get iTunes to "work" with it.
You have to buy a mac to get OS X to "work" with it.
You have to buy Apple hardware to use Apple software. It's that simple. If you don't like it, then go elsewhere.
Posted at 11:12AM on Apr 14th 2006 by Baumann 0 stars
35. [quote]21. At least us Americans can watch with enjoyment as France's socialist nanny state slips further and further towards becoming the first third world country in Europe.(in a long time at least)[/quote]
I'm still waiting for OPEC to change to Euros. Turning the US into a third world country overnight. Or when there is no more oil.
Posted at 11:14AM on Apr 14th 2006 by jcg 0 stars
36. hoo hoooo, apple lovers v frenchies!
one lot are irrational, style driven ponces that wouldn't do well in a ruck, and the other are..erm.. ah.
Posted at 11:17AM on Apr 14th 2006 by bob 0 stars
37. #13 Arthur Barnhouse - You should actually read about the French labor law before you post saying it was trying to create fair hiring/firing practices. To me, being able to fire an employee unconditionally in the first two years doesn't seem exactly fair.
#17 Great argument. Clear and to the point. Clearly you only rely on facts when making your judgements.
Posted at 11:18AM on Apr 14th 2006 by chad 0 stars
38. If this law would affect all of EU, Apple couldn't just stop selling music ei EU, the market is too big to lose.
Posted at 11:20AM on Apr 14th 2006 by Antti 0 stars
39. To hell with the French; bunch of lazy ass, whiny socialist peasants!. Pull Itunes out of France; let them go F**K themselves and deal with more riots. Shows how 'forward thinking' the french are...just ask the people beating and breaking the shit out of everything in site on their streets.
Posted at 11:23AM on Apr 14th 2006 by Jarod -1 stars
40. This can only be bad for the consumer. Apple uses iTunes as a tool to sell iPods. They have said publically to their shareholders that they never intended to make money with the iTunes store. If they force Apple to open up iTunes, chances are Apple will either just close down the service, or they'll start charging more for songs. For example, if the US government forced Apple to open iTMS here, maybe they would start selling songs for $1.29. God knows the record labels want them to.
Posted at 11:24AM on Apr 14th 2006 by charlie 0 stars
41. I don't understand France's logic here, iTunes will allow you to take any CD (either one you have bought or a burned copy of music purchased through the iTMS) and rip it to the computer that will be 100% compatible with OTHER MP3 players. There is no anti-competition, this is not Microsoft IE v. Netscape, this is a private company who has created the delivery platform (iTMS) for a third party product (music). The third party is demanding DRM, not Apple, and to top it off each and every person who buys a song on the iTMS agrees to the terms governing the download and accompanying DRM.
So France is not helping anyone and only once again showing their ignorance to free enterprise and capitalism. Next we'll hear the French gov't wants to mandate free downloads or price controls on iTMS products (if Apple doesn't leave the French market, which I think they will do).
Posted at 11:24AM on Apr 14th 2006 by Sean 0 stars
42. To chad,
I live in Washington state. Here, companies are able to fire-at-will WHENEVER. No two year period, just whenever.
I think it makes perfect sense. If I'm a good worker, then I'll generate revenue for the company. If I'm doing that, then they logically shouldn't fire me. If I start losing money for the company then they should.
Logical exceptions are in cases of discrimination. However, in the US legal system you're innocent until proven guilty. Thus, the burden of proof should be held on the employee, not the company.
Posted at 11:25AM on Apr 14th 2006 by Baumann 0 stars
43. I am from sweden, and i have to say that a lot of you americans are incedibly stupid. this law is about making music usage open, which is what we all want, right?
And, another thing, people who think france is a backwards country should take a look at the US. you ignore the UN, refuse to pay your member fees to the WHO. Do you realy think that you should rule the world by yourself? these organisations are about the world beeing ruled by the world and not the US, and you spit in thier face!
talk about beeing backwards!
Posted at 11:28AM on Apr 14th 2006 by Svante Richter 0 stars
44. I'm glad France has finally realized that you should be able to, ya know, use the stuff you buy. It's about time. I just wish the rest of the world could figure it out.
Posted at 11:30AM on Apr 14th 2006 by Arochone 0 stars
45. "They killed Netscape, pressured OEM manufacturers into excluding competing software, butchered Java, rewarded firms for promoting IE, etc. They abused monopoly power.
Apple created the pay per download music market. Since iTunes' inception, their business model has remained the same. Because of iTunes' success, the rest of the world jumped on board and now Apple needs to open up?!! Gimme a break!"
>> they're still a monopoly in the pay per download market - and do you really think Apple doesn't pressure music labels to use iTunes? not a chance! SJ is the man setting the 99c pricing, NOT the labels (this has been well reported: just google it up). even (or even especially) since Apple created the market. you can't have your cake and eat it.
"Tobor, the difference is that MS basically strongarmed hardware vendors. Apple IS the hardware vendor. They can do what ever they want really. Apple is unique in the fact that it sells its own hardware, creates its own software and OS, and runs its own content distribution."
>> and Apple is strong arming the record labels and the consumers.
"this is a private company who has created the delivery platform (iTMS) for a third party product (music). The third party is demanding DRM, not Apple, and to top it off each and every person who buys a song on the iTMS agrees to the terms governing the download and accompanying DRM."
>> not so simple. Apple created, for what was quite some time (about 3 years now methinks), the only way for people to download songs legally. and Apple controls the entire process - not only iTMS but ALSO the iPod, which ALSO happens to have quite a monopoly on the music player market. sure, if you look at iTMS only, you're technically correct. but the implications are broader.
i know France is a weird country (to me!) and i think market forces would eventually have opened Apple up, especially with several viable alternatives out there. but i think the law is generally sound, especially as - don't forget - it affects EVERYBODY not just Apple.
Posted at 11:40AM on Apr 14th 2006 by David T 0 stars
46. The French government are in the wrong in my opinion. Apple created iTunes to work solely with the iPod. My iriver mp3 software doesn't work with the iPod, it shouldn't be opened up. iTunes was made for the iPod, just because it was successful, doesn't mean it needs to be available to everyone. I may not have thought this all through, but is there a real reason they are even bothering doing this? No one is going to be hurt if everything stays the same, they've been OK since itunes first came out. The reason iTunes is so popular is because the iPod is so popular. You ask all the recent iPod rookies, none of them know about any of the iriver or creative products, but they know the ipod because everyone has it. Apple did a great job at making the iPod interesting to a mainstream audience, and now they should be punished? Geez...
Posted at 11:43AM on Apr 14th 2006 by nojok3 0 stars
47. Im sorry, but i have to write some more.
I america, if i dont get a job, i almost have to starve to death (a little exagurated). in france, sweden, norway, if i dont get a job, i get help from the gov. if i cant pay my medical bills, i dont have to walk around and slowly rot to death, i get help!
There is a reason why norway and sweden are the two highest ranked on the UN humanitarian index.
you americans, sure, you might have competition and capitalism and all of that, but drive out to the poor areas, the projects and you see the backside of it. do you want to have the lowest price, or lowest GINI coefficient?
Posted at 11:43AM on Apr 14th 2006 by Svante Richter 0 stars
48. France is right to complain, and Apple is right to stonewall them.
@33:
The difference is that OS X is Apple's content, but the music sold on the iTunes store is not. Limiting Apple's content to Apple's devices is totally reasonable, especially when the performance of the content is at least partially dependent on tight hardware integration.
Limiting a musician's content to Apple's hardware, even when sold through an Apple-owned and Apple-promoted channel, is less defensible. What are the consumer-visible "features" of FairPlay AAC DRM versus the "features" of other DRM schemes? There aren't any. The principle feature of a DRM scheme vs. another is only visible on the Microsoft/Apple side of the equation: the security side is (at this point) a red herring; cross-format incompatibility IS the featureset.
The strange (and somewhat damning) part of this is that by refusing to license FairPlay to other companies, or to support PlaysForSure on the iPod or in iTunes.app, Apple is revealing some lack of faith in the basic iPod design and features.
To those of you who scrutinize every device's battery life, etc, that makes some sense. But from a gut-level product desirability standpoint, the pandora's box of iPod demand is wide open and not in danger of closing. Apple could license FairPlay, support PlaysForSure, and still rule the online music business and consumer mp3 player markets. For once, they're the VHS and everyone else is the Betamax.
So why is it okay for Apple to stonewall on this? Because for the time being, their engineers have bigger shit to worry about than making PlaysForSure work on the iPod, or accepting a deluge of FairPlay implementation support questions from iRiver and whoever else comes knocking for a FairPlay license.
If people are still complaining 10 quarters from now (and they will be), maybe it'll be time for Apple to give a little.
Posted at 11:55AM on Apr 14th 2006 by jared 0 stars
49. Ehm this is a good move from France, if you ask me, finnaly, free your iTunes bought songs!
France backwards? wtf deffenetly not. While France wreaks havok inside it's contry, it doesn't go to other contry and fuck everything up, US ?
French people whine about laws alot, but they don't get non-scence shit ran over them.
US people like driving SUV's in a metropol, how f***ing practical and forwarding is that!
Ehm... lemme think of the US president, try installing democracy in Iraq... pretty much fails, endeted the contry more than any other president, handling "homeland security" like a toast, doing shit for New Orleans and for some reason, he still governing the contry! Oh yeah other nice point, the US president could have put more funding in hydrogen cell research instead of going overseas to pretend spreading democracy
I think I'll stop now before I break your egos...
Posted at 11:56AM on Apr 14th 2006 by paolo 0 stars
50. There are a lot of people missing the point here. The issue isn't about Apple applying DRM to its iTunes music store files, it's the fact that it won't allow it's format to be used by other MP3 players. If I buy a WMA-enabled player I can choose from several different companies for my hardware and there are several different web sites that sell WMA music, with DRM by the way. I can't do that with Apple. I have one choice of hardware and one choice of hardware.
Imagine if, when Sony invented the cassette tape, it only played back on Sony-brand players and you could only buy the pre-recorded albums at only Sony-owned stores. Why is that a good thing?
Sure, Apple should be able to protect it's own interests, but they could be making a lot more money by getting a royalty cut on their Music format if it opened it up to other sites to sell it. Given the option, other sites would jump on this, because the iPod has such great market penetration. As for the hardware, the iPod is still the best player out there, that should be enough for them to keep selling them. Sony's walkman, though not the only cassette player on the market, lead the category for years, even though there were other companies making players.
Posted at 11:56AM on Apr 14th 2006 by eboy 0 stars
mac does xp, time for itunes to do all other mp3 players
---
Well, i hope you know that opening up iTunes to get the same level of smooth integration would be a LOT of work. You think Apple will foot the bill to help others make money? No! Apple is a hardware company.. They're busy working on the next iBook and the next iPod..
Compete against them, damnit. Tell Samsung and iRiver to make better stuff. Get Sony to make better software so they can copy what Apple's done. Improve WMP... But don't expect Apple to HELP its competitors
What is so backwards about a country who actually values human rights over corporatism ? A country who actually exercises seperation of state and religion ? and a country who now wants to defend the rights of consumers by preventing companies from using copy-protection as a means of maintaining an artificial monopoly and locking people in ?
who cares... its not like any of us actually BUY music...
come on guys...
Okay, Im American living IN French speaking Switzerland, which might as well be France, excepting they dont protest or riot here, although cars to occasionally get burned. And, I work for an international organization (think UN, WHO, WTO).
So, having worked and lived in Asia, EU, and US plus working for an international organization, I would not want such an organization having any say in my life. One government is bad enough, put 191 of them together and youve got one fine looking mess.
To the topic at hand. Yes, free, un drmd music is the goal. However, it has to come from the market, laws cannot nor should not be targeted to attach one particular company, such as being done with Apple in this case. Similarly, the state of Massachusetts made a law just for Walmartbad idea.
France is feeling sorry for itself for as the state is not coming up with their own good ideas and trying to draft laws to make up for its own deficiencies. For an example of less than stellar ideas, see the Quaero search engine. The franco-german governments cultural counterbalance to GoogleWe can ignore them to a point, once it becomes an adopted law in the EU, it can have ripple effects across whole industries.
Take professional video cameras, the ones youd see filming a life football match. In a bid to be the Ever Green continent, the EU drafts laws on how chips inside them must be manufactured. Switching over to this new process is a all or nothing affair, so lines are upgraded. Thus, parts for old cameras are no longer available or twice as expensive, thus new camera sales around the world. Note, one of the two cos that make these cameras is German, the other Sony.
Now, you ever wonder why VW which has the highest labor costs of any car manufactures always manages to makes money? Controlled pricing and a tax structure that encourages new car purchase every 3-5 yearsold autos are shipped off to eastern Europe not to compete with the new ones. Note, they loose money in US market.
Apple is now vertically integrated in the digital music industry, an enviable position of all other players. Much the same as GM, Ford, Daimler are in the auto industry. We dont see laws stating that GM doors must be interchangeable with Daimler cars
Oh, and Sony did invent its own music format, the MiniDisc, that magically only plays on its own player. In the west, the market forces have pretty much relegated MD out of the mainstream for recording use only. Sony previously tried with Betaxax, the market decided on VHS. Given time, the digital music industry would share the same fate.
"Davit - how has Apple strongarmed recording companies? I am not sure how they have done that?"
>> as an e.g., http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1510065/20050921/story.jhtml
Ha ha - your stock went down big time David. First off, you forward an MTV "news" article. Great source. But the real clencher is the point of the story is about the pricing. How is that strong arming the labels into only using iTunes? It is an argument about what the market will bear as far as download prices.
Again, there are many other music stores selling music from the same labels. Take your ball and go home.
You are all completely stupid. Apple has no monopoly at all. If anything, their business practices involving iTunes being iPod only hinders their profits. This is what really happened: you are all very gullable comsumers who were sold by Apple's very effective marketing. If any of you actually took the time to educate yourselves before buying your iPod's you would have seen that you were only screwing yourself by buying yourself into a hole. That said, France is completely powerless to do anything, unless they start teaching common sense in schools (ahh burn).
Side note: the WMA DRM players are still not a solution. Just because there are more vendors does not give you any more options or freedoms, you only decide which company to give your money to for the exact same services.
"Ha ha - your stock went down big time David. First off, you forward an MTV "news" article. Great source. But the real clencher is the point of the story is about the pricing. How is that strong arming the labels into only using iTunes? It is an argument about what the market will bear as far as download prices."
>> well, it happened to be the first one on google. you'll find the exact same story on any other news or "news" site.
OK, what about the BBC, then?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/4265434.stm
it doesn't show directly that they're strong-arming record companies. yes. but then why is the pricing ON ITMS such a big issue? why can't they just take their music elsewhere and screw Apple? because Apple has a monopoly and the labels need to work with them: they can't dictate prices for their own music.
it's just like Microsoft: what's stopping developers developing for other platforms? nothing, except sheer market power. that's the whole point about monopoly power.
side point: i don't have Apple stock, or MS stock, for that matter ;)
It's reasonable for a French offical to want to stick up for her country, especially faced with lots of negative press on how 'awkward' and 'backward' her country may be.
It's also understandable when parents of ugly children consider these children beautiful, and take offence if they happen to overhear acquaintances commenting on their children's ugly appearance. Ugly kids, alas, are still ugly despite their parent's love.
France, despite its trade minister's nationalistic adulation, is rather backward in some respects, and has recently displayed its citizenry's awkwardness.
Madame Lagarde may not want the crap, but her cohorts in government have brought the crap upon themselves.
I'm no fan of DRM, the DMCA, etc., but it is reasonable for rights owners to demand their wares be offered in such a way that their rights are enforced. There are, however, certainly changes that should be made to the laws and technology models surrounding digital content.
It is unfortunate that it is the French government that has fired the opening salvo in the content wars. It is far too easy to lampoon the French, undermining the cause for content rights reform.
j
Boycott C.R.A.P.
Content Restriction Annulment Protection
All this French bashing is ridiculous!
I think it's great that they are fighting Apple over this. One of the main reasons I don't like to buy music from the Itunes store is that i'm scared it will be no use to me 5 years down the track when something better than the iPod comes out.
I really hope this encourages other countries to re-think their acceptance of a monopoly music store that limits customer choice of hardware.
"Of course, it can be argued that Apple hasn't restricted competition, given the fact that there are a number of other companies operating online music stores and making digital audio players -- and that France is attempting to change the rules mid-game."
If that would work, then there's plenty of other OS besides Windows, and suddenly EU-s Antitrust cases have no merit, no..?
Hi; sorry for beeing a frog but as far as I know only Apple made problems with the french law... So if you Americans are so convinced that competition is good then please accept it. I can live without iTunes anyway, it don't work on my Linux.
And please read this thing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DADVSI
Before insulting foreign nations without having a single clue. Thank you.
But american people are saying sooo much about France, for me this IS a good sign that France is actually still very relevant in the world... :P
Wow I never thought id see so many racist bigot nationalitic comments on an intelligent site like engadget. Whats with the Americans hate for France anyway? Did they steal your lunch or something?
Please dont act like France is the only country that has riots. I seem to remember alot of rioting going on in seattle and LA not to long ago.
Also commenting on the girls of a nation is just so ignorant. There are lots of sweet dark curly haired french girls. And this is coming from a Scandinavian, home of beautifull people. French people should however get over the whole french is a world language thing and just learn english. Its over and you lost, ok?
Anyway, back on topic, in my oppinion Apple is clearly in the wrong here. One of the reasons i never use the iTunes music store is that if I buy music from there its locked to my ipod. This is not right. Even though i use an ipod now I may want to change brands later and Apple is trying to force me to stick with theire brand.
Please people dont let nationalistic feelings get in the way of common sence. Using someone elses product to force your own is not fair play.
I can't believe how uninformed people are about the ipod or itunes. There is quite a level of flexibility for those who buy music from the itms.
You can still play iTunes store tunes in iTunes which is free software.
You can convert mp4's to mp3's. Mp4's are made with aac, a superior codec by near unanimous standards.
WMA's will play only on wma approved equipment. Mp3's require a fee paid to the lab that patented it. A fee passed on to the consumer.
How is forcing a company to extend their patents fair to the consumer? It seems not to benefit the consumer but to benefit iRiver, Dolby, Creative.