Sony ready to take on the iPod ... again

Sony senior vice president Takao Yuhara met with reporters yesterday to announce that the company is working on -- drum roll, please -- a new digital audio player, software and download service to take on Apple's iPod. Yuhara didn't provide a whole lot of details, though he did say the player would be "typically Sony," by which we assume he meant it would be hobbled by intrusive DRM, poor support for formats other than ATRAC and prices that will make it completely uncompetitive in a market where you can get a decent 512MB flash player for well under $100. Still, we wish Sony luck. We really would like to see the company come up with an audio player that could return this pioneer to its early Walkman-era glory (we have an idea: hand the division over to the team that designs the Walkman phones). But we fear that what we'll be seeing will instead be this year's answer to the Bean.

[Richard Brunton @ Apr 28th 2006 12:11PM]

I have a Sony NW-A3000 and I love it, having had a MiniDisc and iPod, I much prefer this machine. I agree that the software is awful, but I'm no more tied down with downloading tunes than I was with the iPod.

Either way my downloaded tune is stuck with my player. I don't get what the fuss is here, when I downloaded a track for the iPod it would only play on the iPod and moving the tracks from the iPod was a nightmare.

So as a user of both I saw no difference. However the Sony software is a nightmare to actually use, response and functionality is poor.

[R @ Apr 28th 2006 12:12PM]

How about the also install a rootkit?

[Kamalot @ Apr 28th 2006 12:13PM]

Does this mean that the PSP is NOT an iPod killer?

Shock!

[James @ Apr 28th 2006 12:14PM]

Who know's......could be interesting.

Is it true that the software Sony uses is actaully made by Microsoft?

One thing is for sure, the battery will be better than the one on my Vid iPod.

[Black Guy @ Apr 28th 2006 12:16PM]

Hasn't Sony made this exact same announced a million times b4; almost since the debut of the original iPod? Its really beginning to get old and iDon't think anyone takes them seriously anymore. Every competitor besides Sony that has come out the woodworks w/ this claim has gotten their asses handed to by Apple.

The reality it seems, is that the only real competition to the iPod in the whole scheme of things is Apple itself. There have been many products produced by strong companies that have superior features, good design, decent software but all end up nowhere. The iPod is too strong of a brand that just has the right balance between every key asset; its what makes it so appealing. I'm certain the competition understands that, but it doesn't seem like they have the right ppl w/ the proper vision to execute it. If they did, we would have had an "iPod killer" by now.

Its like the ubiquitous Windows, nobody is going to topple that anytime soon if ever.

[TC @ Apr 28th 2006 12:24PM]

I agree with engadget on this one; Sony Corporation seems to be visibly split between departments. This results in good performing subsidiaries (Sony Computer Entertainment, Sony Ericsson, and most of the design departments) being demeaned by the poor operating components (SonyBMG/music, and most of the software teams) The net result is people losing faith in the brand, and subsistent end products. Many people agree that Sony's Mp3 players sound great, are designed well and are physically easy to use. They also agree that SonicStage is awful, and the lack of codec support and intrusive DRM undermines all that is good.
Come on Sony, It's infuriating to see only glipses of the manufacturing ability of the company before it's drowned out but the inadequacies.
We want: Small flash audio/video player,4-20GB, OLED screen, support for every popular codec (inc.OGG), no DRM (Come on, we could just copy via analog if we wanted to pirate the stuff) and a nice sleek design.
And stop being dictated to by SonyBMG and let the good departments run the company.

[Rik @ Apr 28th 2006 12:26PM]

Actually, I just bought the Sony Bean last week. The 1 GB version for less than 100 euro. It really is a great product. 50 hours of battery (iPod shuffle and Samsung do about 13 hours), 3 min charge > 3 hours of audio, no unnecessary cables, usb charge, usb stick, nice navigation, MP3 and ATRAC (which is twice as small as MP3) and a good design. To bad the media crushed it while it isn't the worst thing at all..

[Avec Ships @ Apr 28th 2006 12:26PM]

Has anyone ever actually *used* a bean? I know they look funny but I kinda feel like they might have been designed to be held in your hand in a useful, kinda novel way.

[Gill Bates @ Apr 28th 2006 12:32PM]

Please don't make me laugh.

[Distributed @ Apr 28th 2006 12:41PM]

Actually, if they can get rid of sonic-stage software and give a battery performance equivalent to that of the beans, i would buy it.
Sonys hardware designers are better than anyone else in the industry... its only the interface/usability engineers and their entertainment division thats the pain in the a**.

[Rich @ Apr 28th 2006 12:47PM]

Actions speak louder than words. It would be nice for a company to actually improve on the iPod + iTMS, rather than make a statement and try to live up to it.

[fahmi @ Apr 28th 2006 12:50PM]

true, sony's hardware (excluding PS division) is very reliable, pretty, good battery performance.. but its software mess things up. their awesome looking (far better than iPod) 50 hours battery NW-507 doesnt support drag and drop system, and native MP3. (convert MP3 to ATRAC)

[Jake @ Apr 28th 2006 12:53PM]

I completely agree with Distributed. As far as the engineering goes, Sony is pretty damn good. Isn't that why Apple hired several of the Sony Vaio engineers for their laptops? The Bean isn't bad at all. It's very comfortable to hold, and there are a lot of features in quite a small package. That would be my only problem with it actually. It might be TOO small (at least for the hands of an average non-Japanese adult male). Sonic Stage can get frustrating, but the ATRAC format is very solid. I know people hate it because it's propriety and all, but often those are people who have never experimented with it. Converting to ATRAC can give you virtually the same sound quality as an MP3 while taking up 1/3 of the space, which also greatly helps the battery life of the player. There really should be nothing to hate about better battery life and less space taken up. ATRAC was just Sony trying to come up with a way to alleviate certain problems with audio players in general, and to me, it's a decent temporary solution.

[jj @ Apr 28th 2006 12:54PM]

Don't forget that it'll utilize a security breaching rootkit. Yay Sony.

[Jeff @ Apr 28th 2006 12:55PM]

"Hasn't Sony made this exact same announced a million times b4; almost since the debut of the original iPod?"

Yeah, but this time they mean it! They're serious, guys! No, really!

[ken @ Apr 28th 2006 12:56PM]

I couldn't agree more. What the hell ever happened to Sony's marketing deptartment?

[Torontoguy @ Apr 28th 2006 1:02PM]

Sony is making the same mistakes as they did before. It is obvious that iPod owners don't care about battery life, sound quality...or even music...they are interested in being seen with an iPod....making a fashion statement.
As long as Sony insists on producing quality audio product in dozens of innovative designs and capabilities rather than piece of preppy 'jewelery' they will never beat the iPod. Apple is the master of supplying overpriced accessories for pretentious airheads.

[PeterB @ Apr 28th 2006 1:07PM]

should we go ahead and start photoshopping pictures of some new and unheard of sony mp3/vid player?

[willyjsimmons @ Apr 28th 2006 1:10PM]

Bought a Bean for my girlfriend.

Taught her to use sonicstage in about 5 minutes.

Now her lil sister wants one.

And the reason for no 'drag and drop' is because Microsoft isn't about to support 'on the fly' conversion to ATRAC.

So it would be a two step process anyways unless you just kept the songs as MP3s, which defeats the purpose of the ATRAC format.

Sonicstage could be improved, certainly. But iTunes isn't the best piece of software ever created either, IMO.

[KG @ Apr 28th 2006 1:11PM]

Give me a f*cking break; what kind of a fashion statement is it when just about everyone else has one? Any iPod user who thinks they're "making a statement" must be living in Toronto.

[Finished.Law.School @ Apr 28th 2006 1:14PM]

Should anyone believe anything that Sony says? Does anyone believe what Sony says?
Lies. Nothing but lies come from Sony.

[Jay @ Apr 28th 2006 1:15PM]

Well said Torontoguy!

[Crivens @ Apr 28th 2006 1:16PM]

Nah, they should simply come out with 2 decent players; a competitor for the Nano and one for the iPod video. Mainly add a decent *colour* screen that isn't huge (remember their Vaio effort?). Then, and this is important, *stick* to that model (or at least the same shape) for more than 3 months. I know it's hard for them, but I quite like to have a few accessories made for my mp3. But it only exists for less than half a year, then no-one bothers anymore. Plus it isn't like Sony are going to do any software updates any time soon for a short term product.

I mean I had one of those tiny 1GB flash players that came out before the one before the bean (or perhaps one before that...). Fantastic bit of hardware (got 80 hours out of a battery once), and so small, but replaced within months. And the next model that came out was totally different. So no chance on accessories or software patches (and it needed a couple).

I have an iPod now, and it's mainly because of problems from Sony. Plus I like the scroll wheel. Battery sucks though, the interface is nowhere near as good as it thinks it is (choice of background colours too much to ask, let alone a picture - plus menus are so pre-Windows 3.11...), and iTunes was a *complete* let down. I mean considering the way SonicStage was so completely slagged off, and iTunes was so praised, I was expecting some kind of MP3 heaven. Nope. It's a little bit better. But not much. And I could think of at least half a dozen things to improve it within half an hour of using it. Damn Sony (for not doing a *little* better)....

Rant over. Back to shuffle songs (Sony wouldn't do that for *every* song on the player, just on the current album, or shuffle albums but play tracks in order - if only there was a simple software upgrade!)

[marklar @ Apr 28th 2006 1:16PM]

if you go and do a bit of research you will find that atrac as some very poor results when it comes to compression, yes the files are smaller than mp3 but despite what rik says, it sounds pretty awful.

as for people wanting an ipod as a fashion statement, i am sure there are some people that do buy it for that, but most people feel it just works - simple interface easy to use software, easy to buy new music, that is what is important about it- dont dismiss what is clearly a great system by claims that customers are being mislead into what they are buying.

[Crivens @ Apr 28th 2006 1:17PM]

Oh, and the Sony had seamless playing on ATRAC (which is a damn fine format thanks very much).

Cheers...

[Primetime @ Apr 28th 2006 1:17PM]

Sony's players do natively support mp3 but it gets a "wrapper" so that the files cannot be transferred to another pc. They are not necessarily converted to ATRAC. As always, the hardware is top notch but the software was crap. SonicStage always forgot which files were ripped from cds to begin with and eventually prohibited all files from being copied, burned, or transferred to the player itself. The new program really needs to simplify this.

[Gill Bates @ Apr 28th 2006 1:22PM]

Torontoguy wrote:
Sony is making the same mistakes as they did before. It is obvious that iPod owners don't care about battery life, sound quality...or even music...they are interested in being seen with an iPod....making a fashion statement.
As long as Sony insists on producing quality audio product in dozens of innovative designs and capabilities rather than piece of preppy 'jewelery' they will never beat the iPod. Apple is the master of supplying overpriced accessories for pretentious airheads.


Nothing rings truer than your statement. Could it be the California attitude that causes this to happen? The Paris (ditz-slut-retard) Hilton crowd of wannabees and look at me's of today's young culture. Creative makes a superior product with a battery that replaces but yet can't make a run against Apple.

[Jacob @ Apr 28th 2006 1:26PM]

14: I've been a happy iPod owner for 3 years. The "only care about being seen with it" remark offends me.

The only reason I still have the white headphones, the major "being seen" item, is because I'm too cheap to buy another set. I'd prefer to get rid of them, so not to be seen.

Why do I have an iPod? Because it works, and works well. The iTunes integration is the best way I've seen to manage music. ("Drag and Drop" from Explorer is for people with small music collections, or OCD cases.) The user interface is pretty much as good as it gets. The sound quality is perfectly fine.

I don't need to record. If I want to listen to FM, I can do that with my cellphone. (But the only time I do that is when I don't have my iPod with me, because radio sucks.) The only beef I have is the small gap between songs, but it doesn't bother me that much.

[willyjsimmons @ Apr 28th 2006 1:28PM]

'SonicStage always forgot which files were ripped from cds to begin with and eventually prohibited all files from being copied, burned, or transferred to the player itself.'

Never had that problem.

[zip22 @ Apr 28th 2006 1:29PM]

which creative product are you refering to, gill?
and i'm sure all 50 million ipod owners are paris hilton wannabies. you hit the nail on the head there. :rolleyes

[TheWeb20Dev @ Apr 28th 2006 1:29PM]

haha ATRAC.

[glacia00 @ Apr 28th 2006 1:30PM]

Torontoguy

Thank goodness someone gets it. All of Apple's products are in that category. I'm not bashing them. It's good marketing. But so much of the Apple appeal is fashion and convincing a certain crowd that they're different than 'those' people because you use 'this' and not 'that'. All of this in spite of having the same basic style for many years. In fact it's that continuity of a single theme that is one of the keys. Like Gucci or Louis Vuitton people don't have to know particular models or products for them to see that you're part of the club.

Apple products capture the high-school mentality and allow people to hold onto it well beyond their teen years. Apple is a fashion clique that their customers belong to.

[PEZ @ Apr 28th 2006 1:31PM]

Sony posted loses for the 5th year in a row. They are not the company that once was - and its not because they suck, (well maybe a little), its because there are way to many other players out there making the same thing. The only one that stands out it the iPOd (hate saying that, but...)

What sony should try and do is get the REST of the market - rather than compete with Apple. Thats basically impossible.

Non-apple user here.

[josh @ Apr 28th 2006 1:34PM]

"It is obvious that iPod owners don't care about battery life, sound quality...or even music...they are interested in being seen with an iPod....making a fashion statement."

I keep seeing this statement, and it's a bit ridiculous. I have an iPod, though no one ever sees me with it. I use my iPod to play my music at work and in my car, and when I fly. The reason I bought an mp3 player was that I got really tired of lugging around tons of CDs in my car, when I'd invariably want to listen to a CD that was at home.

The reason I bought an iPod over all other players was... when I bought it, it was the cheapest player that had 60 GB. At the time, my music collection was 50 GB. I wanted a player that could include all of it. The iPod was almost the only one, and it was cheaper and smaller than the one or two other players I found that did 60 GB.

Everyone on Engadget always says that the iPod competitors have so many more features than the iPod, but i would guess that the features that are most important to the average person (me, anyway) are: memory and size. The iPod is small, and has lots of space on it. Those are the only two reasons I bought it. The Creative Zen Vision M that people seem to love seems cool... but at the time it was only offered in a 30 GB model. Actually... I just looked it up and they still only offer a 30 GB model! There's a big reason why the Zen Vision is not doing well, Creative - offer it in a competitive size.

[Frangible @ Apr 28th 2006 1:37PM]

As a former MD user, I think SonicStage is pretty terrible. I got frequent errors when transferring MP3s to NetMD, it required I have two copies of my music (MP3 + ATRAC), the DRM made me cry, and it was a frustrating, slow experience.

I'd probably buy MD again for recording purposes if I could do everything without SonicStage. There's no excuse why it can't be a mass storage device and record to MP3 like my Samsung YP-T7Z MP3 player, only to MD media instead of flash memory.

I don't really care for the iPod for many of the same reasons, not to mention relatively low audio quality and a non-adjustable EQ, but Sony continues to make mistake after mistake.

It's just an utter shame to see poor decisions destroy the MD format, and Sony not learn from that and continue to make the same decisions now.

[Beowulf @ Apr 28th 2006 1:38PM]

Sony, less talk, more action.

[Black Guy @ Apr 28th 2006 1:39PM]

Torontoguy -

U r fucking idiot and everyone that agrees w/ him. Do honestly think that if the iPod was only made 4 airheads it would have the market corners as it does? "iPOd owners don't care about music?" U'r stupid...

What ppl don't care about, is the excess useless features that companies pack into their players in hopes of differentiating their lineup from Apple's. Ppl want a music player and Apple delivers on that. Not flawlessly but obviously they do it better than anybody else.

Marketing and style is not going to go far w/o a a quality product to back it up. Marketing 101. Maybe next time u should think out comments b4 speaking out u'r ass.

[Galley @ Apr 28th 2006 1:42PM]

Hey Sony, don't forget!
No AAC support = no sale!

[Kamalot @ Apr 28th 2006 1:47PM]

Even the Xbox 360 has AAC support.

[darthbane2k @ Apr 28th 2006 1:47PM]

#33 Black Guy

Im sorry but I agree with Torontoguy. Anyone who buys products such as the ipod shuffle, video ipod or any other under specced piece of shit from apple is a fucking tool. Just admit it, you're only buying them for those pretty white earphones, arent you.

There are much better products on the market. ones where you can access and share music on anyother pc without being forced to install that nazi piece of shit software itunes.

Want a $99 leather case for your pod? they're nice, real real nice! LOL - Tools!

[James @ Apr 28th 2006 1:54PM]

@ PEZ

I think you need to check where you are getting your facts from.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4649554.stm

Sony is still making profit, it's just that some have higher profit centres - such as flat panel televisions. If your comments refer to Sony Walkmans, I believe you are still wrong. Sony sold just over 5 million players (which still produced high profit)

I'm an iPod user, and I have to say I love it. However, I have heard the Sony players and the quality (including bass reproduction) seems to be far better than that of the iPods.

The iPod has two major benefits - Ease to use and simplicity

Instead of everyone slating off Sony�s ability, let see what they come up with? However, Apple has such dominance in that market!

[melvin @ Apr 28th 2006 1:56PM]

Torontoguy and those agreeing with him are in one of several categories:

1. Angsty college students who have chosen the iPod as the focus of said angst, have spent hours in a dark room brooding over how they can attack it, and are now fully vested in pitching their fallacical ideas to the public;

2. Scenesters who have a primary directive to be different & original from everyone else. In this case it means eschewing a clearly superior product, trying to belittle it using unsupported fallacies;

or

3. You can't afford a fuckin' iPod.

It's the best music player/storage system out there, and to me (notice how I qualified my statement unlike you) it doesn't sound a smidge different than any other player I've ever used. And yes, I've used other players.

Hopefully Sony or some other product manufacturer will make a player to take iPod on in terms of quality, capacity, ease of use, and reliability. So far I haven't seen it.

[Dan @ Apr 28th 2006 1:58PM]

Man, you haters are sad...

People have different preferences than you. Get over it.

[HamiltonGuy @ Apr 28th 2006 2:00PM]

Torontoguy... typically arrogant Toronto attitude and comment.

"It is obvious that iPod owners don't care about battery life, sound quality...or even music...they are interested in being seen with an iPod....making a fashion statement.

As long as Sony insists on producing quality audio product in dozens of innovative designs and capabilities rather than piece of preppy 'jewelery' they will never beat the iPod. Apple is the master of supplying overpriced accessories for pretentious airheads."

I guess I could say the same about why many choose Windows and ignore "quality products in many (dozens of) innovative designs and capabilities" from Apple.

And rather ironic coming from a Toronto guy... pretentions and all.

Many buy and use an iPod (& use iTunes) because it just works. (not claiming anything's perfect)

You must have missed this weeks "Homepage" (live TV computer show) on CablePulse24 where a Microsoft rep for Canada (Hersh Forman) tried to hightlight MS "entertainment-on-the-go solutions" by showing off a Samsung Yepp mp3 player and how (supposedly) easy it was to tranfer music to it (on a Windows machine of course). Funny thing is, it bombed and he had to make lame excuses as to why (these things always happen on live TV, etc). Another live MS-demo bombed a few weeks ago. At least MS is consistent.

So much for "Plays for Sure" and other iPod killing players/technology.

If some people came down off their high horses occasionally, they might actually discover something worthwhile, and that works as advertised... imaginary pretentions aside.

...

[josh @ Apr 28th 2006 2:04PM]

"Just admit it, you're only buying them for those pretty white earphones, arent you."

i actually use my sony headphones! because they have a winder, without a winder i find my headphones end up in annoying knots.

"There are much better products on the market. ones where you can access and share music on anyother pc without being forced to install that nazi piece of shit software itunes."

uhhhh anapod?

http://www.redchairsoftware.com/anapod/featpw.php

you don't need itunes to use an ipod. there are several good itunes replacements. anapod is one (and a very good one!), but there are others out there.

"Want a $99 leather case for your pod? they're nice, real real nice! LOL - Tools!"

my evo case cost $30... and is ipod the only mp3 player that has accessories? i doubt it. i'm sure you can buy cases for all the other brands, too - what's your point?

[idude135 @ Apr 28th 2006 2:04PM]

Sony will never catch Apple, they're too late to rival the iPod. They should face the fact that the Walkman brand has been, in the minds of the people a thing of the past.

From a marketing standpoint I would create a new division altogether and create a new brand.

Sony will never outgun Apple. Sony's software is bugged crap, and that's a big turnoff. Apple has the upperhand in having much better software developers than Sony ever will.

The only think that can kill Apple, is a universally adopted drm scheme. If all the mediocre music store got together and voted on a format, they'll do much better and bite more off Apple's market share.

If I were Sony, I'd take advantage of the fact I own several key record labels and somehow exploit exclusivity through anticipated album releases. Sony really needs to develop a store for the PS3.

Maybe they should use the PlayStation brand to build some recognition.

[glacia00 @ Apr 28th 2006 2:04PM]

""("Drag and Drop" from Explorer is for people with small music collections, or OCD cases.) ""

Wow, that is right out of bizzaro world. Another reason that I have to hand it to Apple's marketing. They have successfully convinced certain people that using a proprietary piece of software to convert then load data onto a storage device is somehow better than a direct transfer.

You might have enjoyed it but they completely buffaloed you. I have said it many times but Apple could convince their customers that they need a separate proprietary piece of software to load a flashdrive and their customers would buy it then argue that they use the best software for loading their flashdrive.

[Davis Ags @ Apr 28th 2006 2:15PM]

Am I the only one that thinks both SonicStage AND iTunes sucks?

Drag and drop 4ever...I have a 40 Gig collection and I prefer managing it with my ever trusty WinAmp...It frustrates soooo much that I have to use iTunes for my nano.

I must be the ONLY one that thinks "Drag and Drop" is the most important feature...more than sound quality, FM tuner, blah, blah, blah.

[josh @ Apr 28th 2006 2:23PM]

i don't know. while i wouldn't mind drag and drop play, i don't really see it as an important feature. my music collection is spread over 3 hard drives. i like the fact that itunes or anapod just scans for new stuff and add it to my library, and as long as the files are correctly tagged (which they mostly are), it goes into the right categories. i don't really have to do anything.

all i have to do is download music, and plug my ipod in, and select scan for new music and all my new stuff gets put on it - no matter where the new music came from, whether it's a podcast, a queued bittorrent download that recently finished, or a recently-ripped cd. it all just gets synced, i dont have to drag anything. it's easy, and seamless, since i would be plugging it in anyway to charge it.

i DO see how drag and drop music would be useful if you wanted to grab music from a friend's computer, but i've never really had the need for that... my music library is generally bigger than most of my friends.

is there another advantage of drag and drop that i haven't thought of?

NOW what someone really needs to come out with is a 120 or 200 GB player... 60 GB is way too small. i want a mp3 player that i can have my whole collection on. my ipod was great for a few months, but now its smaller than my library and that irks me.

[zip22 @ Apr 28th 2006 2:34PM]

Davis Ags, there is a winamp plugin that will let you use your nano with winamp
http://www.winamp.com/plugins/details.php?id=138888