Right back at you: Apple sues Creative

Oh, this is going to get good. Turns out Apple sued Creative for patent infringement the very same day that Creative filed suit against Apple. We're guessing Apple had a suit waiting in the wings just in case Creative tried to pull something, because a Creative spokesman said that "Creative proactively held discussions with Apple in our efforts to explore amicable solutions," and that "at no time during these discussions or at any other time did Apple mention to us the patents it raised in its lawsuit." There's no word as to what the patents refer to, but it sounds like they cover stuff outside of the "Zen Patent" realm if Creative didn't know about them. This surprise attack is at least a minor win for Apple legal, but we're sure Creative's team won't go down without a fight, so grab the popcorn and prepare to enjoy the beauty of modern day patent law.

[Via iLounge]

[Chris @ May 19th 2006 12:47AM]

Oh, this is gonna be good.

[jaysins @ May 19th 2006 12:49AM]

This reminds me of an old western movie where the gunners meet stand face to face on a dusty road. Of course, with it being a legal matter and all, it may take a very long time for that clock to hit 12 noon and for the fatal shots to be fired but will be interesting none the less.
"I'm a calling you out pilgrim." I used to carry a rio mp3 player but have sinced moved to a phone of all things as the quality is very good and much more convenient for me. Especially since you can answer a call in the middle of a song than just resume (great for gym). In fact, I think mp3 phones will be the device to eventually bring the iPod down. Just a thought.

[Jason @ May 19th 2006 12:53AM]

Reason with Apple? Haha, good luck.

[7of7 @ May 19th 2006 12:59AM]

I don't really care what happens as long as Apple and the iPod go down in a big flaming ball. I can't wait to turn their new store in New York into a penitentury. Besides, I'd rather fight with Creative, who makes solid MP3 players at a great price, than Apple, who makes shiny junk at exorbitant prices. Think $499 is high for a PS3? Go price yourself out a 60Gb iPod and a skin, dock, and some speakers for it.

[Zadillo @ May 19th 2006 1:08AM]

#4: The 30 gig Zen Vision: M has an MSRP of $299, which is basically identical to the MSRP of the 30 gig iPod with video. From what I've seen, there doesn't seem to be a huge price difference between the Nanos and some of Creative's Flash-based players (although it seems like retailers have to discount the prices of the Creative players quite a bit more). So why is one price "great" and the other is "exorbitant" [sic], as you put it? As far as pricing out a 60 gig iPod AND a skin, dock and some speakers, what kind of comparison is that? If you bought a case for your Creative player and some speakers for it, the price would be the same (granted, there aren't nearly as many case options and speaker options for the Creative players, but there's still some). I'm not sure what your point was there; any mp3 player + case + speakers (a dock seems purely optional to me) is going to be pricey.

[BDC @ May 19th 2006 1:11AM]

i like it when Apple douche-slaps people that deserve it.

Creative: "wahhh, we can't compete, we're gonna sue"
Apple: "That's fine, while you're at the courthouse, howzabout you rotate on THIS?"

[I Love Patents @ May 19th 2006 1:27AM]

Where are all those whining crying sobbing moaning apple fanboys now?

These lame patents apples going for and counter suing for are just as ridiculous as the zen patent, more so, apples own "click wheel" patent is just a cheap knockoff from sonys jog wheel it was using on minidisc player where ud rotate it and press inwards to select. Apple getting away with THAT patent is no different.

If anyone is to really be sued, its apple and its microsoft-like unethical business strategies with its flash memory domination thats capable of putting smaller companies out of business, but apple fanboys DONT CARE, they just want their pretty ipod to conform with society, even if creative's zv:m is a superior product.

im starting to REALLY hate apple. every month that goes by they do something unethical or stupid that gives the consumer the SHAFT. Apples new macbook @ 2ghz fully loaded costs 1,200 CAD dollars MORE than an Acer with the exact same specs....and thats the macbook WITH a student discount!!!

i hope creative wins the case, im sick and tired of disguisting apple swine trying to cash in on the consumers stupidity, yes, that means all you apple fanboys.

[Brandon @ May 19th 2006 1:29AM]

Pass me some of that popcorn, I'm always in for a good Apple lawsuit.

[Andrew @ May 19th 2006 1:33AM]

This is gonna be great, I've got the popcorn and I'm ready for an all out fight to the death. Go Apple!

[Zadillo @ May 19th 2006 1:34AM]

#7: Can you really not see the difference? Apple didn't use their patents to try and shut Creative's mp3 player operations down. If they had just said "hrmm, we need to crush Creative, let's file a patent lawsuit to get them out of the market", then that would be something to be critical of. But they only pulled this one out in response to Creative's lawsuit (the whole point of a countersuit), essentially as a way of saying "if you're going to try and do this to us, we'll come right back at you". The situations are not the same, but apparently your blind hatred of Apple makes you think they are the same.

[wolf @ May 19th 2006 1:36AM]

I'm an Apple fan, and although I think Creative's suit is silly, and they will probably loose for the same reasons as last time, I think it would be good for apple to change its UI. The scroll wheel is nice, but it gets annoying to scroll through the 30GBs of music I have, and I can't imagine how long it would take for someone with 60GB of music. What apple need to do is get it's iPod UI to be more like iTunes. Somehow they need to implement a search, and the creation of playlists (other than on-the-go) on the iPod itself. Also, what is the deal with only being able to view one album art on the iPod.. this seems like something that would be easy for Apple to add.

[Geoff @ May 19th 2006 1:37AM]

This really is more entertaining than a lot of movies that are made.

7. "These lame patents apples going for and counter suing for are just as ridiculous as the zen patent, more so, apples own "click wheel" patent is just a cheap knockoff from sonys jog wheel it was using on minidisc player where ud rotate it and press inwards to select. Apple getting away with THAT patent is no different."

Once Creative sued Apple all the rules changed. If Apple decided to turn the main guns toward creative and fire four shots across the bow, it was only in response to the shot from Creative. As evidenced by the fact that Apple didn't file these earlier.

#4, go listen to #5.

#3, reason has no place within the RDF.

note to self: I am a total Apple fanboy.

[Zadillo @ May 19th 2006 1:42AM]

Btw, I went to Amazon.com to read the various user reviews of the Creative Zen Vision: M, to see what people were saying about them, etc. I think it really speaks volumes that practically every review can't help but talk about the iPod as well, and how much they hate iPods and how infinitely superior the Zen Vision M is, but that anyone who likes the iPod is apparently an idiot. Really, you throw around these accusations of blind fanboyism, but what the hell do you call a lot of these Zen Vision M people who apparently can't even discuss their player without spending the bulk of their time tearing down the iPod? And I also think it's funny that people say iPod fans are blind to it's various shortcomings, or just ignore them, while doing the same thing with their devices (i.e. "Yeah, the Zen Vision M is very thick, but so what?!?! THE IPOD SUXXORSS!!!!!").

[rex @ May 19th 2006 1:49AM]

so is apple going to patent the first video ipod that lets you play pron on the go aswell??

[Pom @ May 19th 2006 1:56AM]

Creative threw down the gauntlent long before saying to apple that they were going to take down the ipod. Since they couldn't they sued. Plain and simple.

Apple haters can turn their noses at the iPod all they want. Especialy the posers that hate something just because it is popular. I'd rather be lump in with the fanboys if it means I don't have to use WMP(not even 11) or a Zen

Creative sued first

[willgood @ May 19th 2006 1:57AM]

"If anyone is to really be sued, its apple and its microsoft-like unethical business strategies with its flash memory domination thats capable of putting smaller companies out of business, but apple fanboys DONT CARE, they just want their pretty ipod to conform with society, even if creative's zv:m is a superior product."

You are joking me right, sue a company because they are dominating the market? You are ridiculous.

[kevin @ May 19th 2006 2:08AM]

14. rex, please... it's spelled pr0n.

[Silver @ May 19th 2006 2:16AM]

Wow, the moronic Apple haters are out in full force on this story. Or are you just covert Creative PR people? What is it about Apple that gets irrational people so worked up?

It's an MP3 player, people. Try to calm down. Enjoy your Zens. It's your money. If there weren't people who bought crappy products, those of us who buy better products wouldn't feel as good about our purchases. So you're doing us a favor. Just try to keep the nonsensical rhetoric down. It makes you look stupid.

On a related note, my brother-in-law just bought two new Zen Micros because they were a little cheaper than the iPod. He can't sync either of them to his old Dell computer or his brand new Dell computer. Doh! Pwned. Guess it wasn't worth saving the $50 after all...

[Mischa Lockton @ May 19th 2006 2:41AM]

Ok, I believe in property rights, but how the hell can someone patent a heirarchical directory? It is so hard to draw the line with this absurdity. I mean is the idea of a directory tree an invention or a discovery?

Next thing they'll try to patent "volume up/volume down"

How come noone knew about this coutersuit until now if it was filed the same day?

Uh-oh... I hate having more questions than answers.

[Revrant @ May 19th 2006 3:04AM]

SilverFanGrrl: Thanks for the speech on Rhetoric there, Bush.

Moving right along, to the Zen being thick, well, I guess it takes one to know one doesn't it? It's not a freaking Enema, it doesn't need to be breakably thin, it's an EMM PEE THREE player, and thanks to Creative, also a UMD, it's meant to store music and play it, not be a fashionable addon you can slip into your freaking cargos.

Apple has an unethical hold on the flash memory market, and in doing so has created a monopoly, they create a product for nill and sell it for gobs of profit, and because other companies can't get those ball-bustingly low prices on Flash, they have to price equally to compete, selling at a loss even. There's nothing better about the iPod, limited formats, disgusting iTunes quality, a battery situation that has remained stupid and consumer unfriendly since it's debut so many years ago, not to mention it has done almost Nothing to improve itself by comparison to the Zen.

The Zen has gone through so many uplifting changes, right into it's current award winner, that it's disgusting to compare the two. What the hell has Apple done? Hm? Oh, the firmness of the Wheel and making a storage device play back a video file? That about cover it? Great, just great.

Creative didn't have the right to patent what they didn't create, but all the same, Apple doesn't either, so heel fangrrrlz.

[dew @ May 19th 2006 3:04AM]

I've seen the UI for Creative Vision M whatsisface. It is better than the IPOD. It's not as sexy sleek as the 5g, nor is the interface as intuitive as the clickwheel but it's a solid device.

The thing is, there's no killer app to work with Creative's hardware. You may not use Itunes BUT I do. It's powerful. It's easy to use. And my Chinese/Japanase/German/whatever songs display correctly in their native language.

1) it's not illegal to BE a monopoly. Only the abuse of power is forbidden. I don't think Apple has abused their power. 99cents is not worse than variable pricing. It's just a different idea (akin to the idea of a flat tax rate vs. variable tax bracket system.)

2) The Sony Jogwheel is, in no shape way or form, as good as the clickwheel. Compare them side to side. List the functions. Clickwheel just clicks. It is a clever clever idea. Just because it's a simple idea doesnt mean it's not worth anything. No one doubts the value of E=mc2 and it's a gradeschool equation.

3) As for Creative, they are in the wrong. For the simple reason that their UI is actually better than the Ipods. Therefore, its different. They've no case.

Just because something is popular doesnt mean it sucks.
God, i really hate people who organize music by hand.
Jesus, what's the use of a computer if you can't program it to automate menial tasks for you? That's just a waste of all the potential in a computer. That may be in part due to the complicated nature of Windows and their marketing but it's people that fall for the FUD. People.

[bitshitter @ May 19th 2006 3:09AM]

@#19 (silver):
Wow, the idiotic apple fanboys always try in vain to act above-board & mature by pointing out the so-called "moronic Apple haters" & how they need to "Try to calm down. Enjoy your Zens. It's your money." & "It's an MP3 player, people."

Then, in true iPod fanboy fashion, since they're too stupid to carry an act for to long anyways, they follow it up with their slavering fanboy rants & their pathetic "yo mama" come-backs, further proving why there are so many "Apple Haters" out there to begin with.

On a related note, my brother-in-law just bought two new iPod nanos because they were a little cheaper than the iPod. He can't sync either of them to his old MAC computer or his brand new MAC computer. Doh! Pwned. Guess it wasn't worth saving the $50 after all...

see how that works, idiot??? If you can't ( & I know why), you could just check out ipodlounge.com: they have half of their site dedicated to all the stupid problems people are having with their ipods, more threads are started their everyday for ipod problems than for anything else.

huhh?? Not yet?? then check out that apple fansite, CNET: the Zen Vision:M has been the #1 - and often BOTH the #1 AND #2 - most popular mp3 player going on 2 months straight, now. The ipod's not even on the list...

Or check out CNet's recent "Top 10 must-have A/V devices": the ZVM is #2, behind the TiVo Series2DT. The iPod's not even on the list.....

still don't get it??? Man, iPod fanboys sure are dumb...

[Redbeard @ May 19th 2006 3:10AM]

Build a better mouse-trap and the world will beat a path to your door. Build a better MP3 player and the fans of your competitor will still hate it on "principal" even though they have no real reason.

[OMAC @ May 19th 2006 3:18AM]

Does anyone know what patents Apple is suing over? None of the links mention what they are. I mean if it's important to know why Creative is suing Apple (Zen patent), isn't it just as important to know why Apple is suing creative?

[Dx @ May 19th 2006 3:42AM]

Why does the Zen look so much like the iPOD.

[AutoDas @ May 19th 2006 3:44AM]

uh apple fanboys saying how stupid it is to patent a hierarchy are too ignorant to realize that apple was going to patent the same thing. I think apple's counter-sue is nothing. there is no news about it and they would have used it before creative's patent went through if apple's case had anything backing it.

[Revrant @ May 19th 2006 3:55AM]

Dx - Because Creative had a similar design around before the iPod came into existence.

[Mephistophelian @ May 19th 2006 4:02AM]

Fanboy should be fanperson from now on.

This is no place for sexism people.

M.

[andrew harrison @ May 19th 2006 4:12AM]

#7:"im starting to REALLY hate apple. every month that goes by they do something unethical or stupid that gives the consumer the SHAFT. Apples new macbook @ 2ghz fully loaded costs 1,200 CAD dollars MORE than an Acer with the exact same specs....and thats the macbook WITH a student discount!!!"

really? I priced a Dell laptop with the same specs as the mid range macbook and the macbook came in at a whopping AUD$60 more. That's around USD$35.

these guys: http://waffle.wootest.net/2006/05/16/macbook-cheaper-than-dell/ found the same thing.

But go on, buy your acer. i'm sure you'll be thrilled with it. I'll spend the extra $60 for a MacBook.

[Other @ May 19th 2006 4:15AM]

#22,
1. A monopoly is illegal in the U.S. and all other free market nations.
2. The jog wheel concept is the same and before the clickwheel, without having any real innovation, you are just copying the other product. If anyone had the money to challenge the Apple patent, I suspect that Apple would lose the patent. It's the reason why Apple hasn't sued any company for having similar controls like the jogwheel(clickwheel), because they stole it from someone else.
3. Just because it's a bad copy doesn't mean it is not a copy, and really, I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about here.

#19 Silver
Calling people stupid without giving any support makes you retarded.

[Choco Puff @ May 19th 2006 4:21AM]

Creative and its employee: Look at here!!.. our mp3p support this and that.. has theeeesssse great features.. may have better sound too... waa.. waa.. why don't you buy me?? Apple sux.. waa... see our players are cheaper too... all you 65 billion apple fanboys are idiots buying ipod...

Please leave Apple and Earthians alone.

[Omatic @ May 19th 2006 4:28AM]

I don't like Apple because they could put so much more in to their player, but don't because they feel they're the best on the market (and accurately so). They could put WMA, OGG, and FLAC support on their players if they wanted to, but they don't.

They could charge less than a dollar per song, which is outrageous considering how much other online music stores charge, and the fact that the music isn't portable in the least bit. There's a lot they could do for the consumer, but they don't. Hence, I'm rooting for the underdog, no matter how sneaky their tactics are (come on... putting a patent on an interface that EVERYONE uses). Go Creative!

[Tnyc @ May 19th 2006 4:34AM]

Apple products = a beautiful blond model that can chat you up and make you feel "special" but she's really an airhead and stupid inside.

[Joram Oudenaarde @ May 19th 2006 4:39AM]

It doesn't matter if the patent will be found valid or not. Creative will lose because they're too late. They waited too long with filing a sue to Apple, because the whole menu-structure is being used my countless other companies as well, and it's too vague a patent to acuse anyone of using a similar menu.

This is just a last attempt to try to get a foothold in the mediaplayer-market in which they are losing now. But they forget that the menu isn't the main winning formula here... they should thinkn about good external design, as well as good cooperation with software (on the computer).

[invinciblegod @ May 19th 2006 4:49AM]

All the people who just said "the zen is so much better because ipod has crappy battery and who cares about how thick zen is and ipod cant play multiple file formats and apple sux and is microsoft like and I give example of crappy ipod even though I dont own one and always believe everything on the internet" and all the people who just said "the ipod is so much better zen sux and creative is evil and stupid and all zen fanboys are retards" need to go and maybe not use the internet ever again. You people always complain about other companies no matter what and always say your company is great. That makes no sense! Both zen and ipods have good qualities. Supposedly, Ipod's are easy to use and look nice and can sync with itunes. It also has a unreplacable battery unless you open and and requires a specifec video file format. Zen's are thicker and has a different interface (don't know about's its ease of use) and uses microsoft DRM. I have a creative muvo fm which is a very basic mp3 player. It is perfectly fine for playing mp3's (bad interface though. However, it only has like a 2 line lcd so it probably compares favorable to ipod shuffle). Both have problems. Like the guy "I Love Patents". He's retarded. Macbooks aren't THAT expensive. Also, "7of7" compared creative with an ipod with many accessories. That's also retarded. Also, Other mentioned about the ipod trying to patent the interface and how they dont mention it. HOW ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO MENTION IT IN THIS ARTICLE!?!? On the apple side we have Silver who promoted the ipod by saying the Zen was bad (though that may or may not be a true story) in his "neutral" post. That's the only one I can find thus far on apples side. However, even if they are apple fanboys and probably ignore the downsides of the Ipods (no FM tuner, voice recording, must reencode video) I must say that the creative fanboys are in general much more RUDE. I'm not an apple fanboy as I own a creative muvo FM which was VERY VERY much cheaper than an ipod, but they seem at least more polite than the likes of AutoDas, or bitshitter. At least Revrant and some other creative fans aren't total assholes. Maybe some of you can convey your thought better without sticking in comments such as "in true stupid apple fanboy fashion." At least I didn't see any "creative fanboys are stupid idiots" (unless I missed something. Then I'm sorry but I don't think I missed anything.) So maybe the creative fans who are assholes (obviously not all of you) can become more sophisticated and argue like normal people.

[Jason @ May 19th 2006 5:48AM]

I think the fanboyism comes down to personal taste, 2 friends of my have the creative zen and I play with them all time and they are great products but most people (77% of the US) just like how the ipod looks so I don't think there any reason to be arguing about which one is better because in the end, it's just personal taste... And about all the patent cases lately... I think we have to take a deeper look at the patent office cause some of patents some companies are getting lately is just stupid..

[Kai Cherry @ May 19th 2006 5:52AM]

There is something wrong with all of y'all.

What's with all the...rage?

Its just...bizarre.

-K

[Amy Hikari @ May 19th 2006 5:53AM]

Sigh. What's the deal with all the bitching? If someone likes Apple, they like Apple. If someone likes Creative, they like Creative. Why should the two sides have to fight? Everyone has differing opinions, no one person is gonna feel EXACTLY the same as another...

And no, I'm not a pacifist, I just play one on the internet. ;)

[trusk @ May 19th 2006 5:54AM]

last time i had a 60gb zen, it had a replaceable battery. but the battery lid just popped open everytime i touched the thing, so i had to sell it (got me a 4g ipod back then). creative makes solid players, but their biggest disadvantage is the bundeled software. yeah I can use foobar2000/amarok/etc, but the average user just sticks with the horrible creative player. the apple product isn't just optically nicer, together with itunes it's by far the better hardware/software solution. creative should rather make competitive products than go to court.

[Jarod @ May 19th 2006 6:02AM]

The Anti-Apple crowd need to either:

- get an education
- get a job so that you can actually afford something decent in life

It's very clear that anti-apple sentiment rises from those that amount to nothing but failure in life. It amazing how a simple company like Apple can shed some very clear light on the different types of people in this world.

Creative is finished in case you fools don't yet realize it.

[Jiminikiz @ May 19th 2006 6:38AM]

hey, if you want something that plays mp3s get an iPod or a Creative Zen, if that's all you want it to do, then fine.

if you were a smart consumer, you would look at other mp3 players first however and see which one you like best and just know there is more than 2 choices.

but eh, the whole lawsuit thing is just crap. too many lawsuits in this country.

[Waldoski @ May 19th 2006 6:46AM]

Apple is not having the cool now.
Apple is having the conformist (I think is word of the US) to buy player.
Soon all babushka are having the Ipod
If using same player as the babushka then is cool?
No!
Sorry Apples

[daniel @ May 19th 2006 7:05AM]

this whole thing seems like a waste of time i cant see how any one would be stupid enough to find in favour of either of them

[Geir E @ May 19th 2006 7:47AM]

How hard can it be to admit that if you choose an ipod or a creative player it's just a part of this fantastic thing in life called 'Freedom'.

That apple and creative both makes product that share similarities is also a fantastic thing in life called 'Competition', and with competition comes 'Innovation'.

What makes apple succeed is that they created something easy and integrated. People didn't need to be a nerd to figure out how to operate an iPod. And focusing on a clean 'design' and 'usability' they created a new trend (like sony created with walkmans in the 80s).

creative on the other hand focuses on better 'technological' solutions that covers more of the standards that digital music comes in.

So use your 'freedom' to choose if 'design' and 'usability' is the right for you, or if you preffer something 'technological'. Probably most of the iPod users doesn't know aac from flac, and have no clue on what makes ogg better than mp3 and probably doesn't know what mpeg4 is but as long as it works they're happy. And if that doesn't make you happy, the choice is yours - get the alternative.

I own a sony walkman phone, with a 2gb memorystick it takes about the same amouth of songs as a ipod nano but it's not as easy to use as a ipod nano but I'm an advanced user so I know my way around it. It's my choice. A friend of mine who barly know how to use msn messenger bought a ipod nano for herself and her sister - and didn't spend much time to figure out how to use it. So if you choose a creative player it's your freedom to do so - it's just a tool to listen to music with.

[pr @ May 19th 2006 7:50AM]

I hope Apple destroys Creative, and not because I like iPods better than Zens or whatever they call those things...I really don't care. It's just garbage that someone can patent a "menu system" that is so obvious, blatantly natural, and was clearly used before the patent was even requested. It's a total perversion of patent law, and the whole idea behind patents.

[PEZ @ May 19th 2006 8:05AM]

This is FUNNY. Kinmd of like when apple intros a product, its available the same day. You sue apple, they reflect and hit you righ tin the face. HAhahaha.

NOW, put a damn voice recorder in the ipod nano willya!

@{~

[JinKazama @ May 19th 2006 8:08AM]

This is a common mistake failing companies make. Instead of focusing on making a competitive product or differentiating product lines they try to bring down their biggest competitor. Which is a HUGE mistake. They've based the future of the company on a lawsuit...

[Dave @ May 19th 2006 8:12AM]

A quick response to anyone who accuses the iPod of being pretty but "Dumb" with nothing going on upstairs:

Look folks, here's the deal. The iPod, whether you like the menu structure or not, sounds very good. The 4g model had some fairly serious sound flaws, but the 5G has quickly become the Audiophile player of choice. At the national headphone converence in April, everyone had one. iTunes is easy to use and the iPod's lossless files (Apple Lossless) are excellently encoded. The DAC is good, the Line Out is very clean... even the headphone jack is surprisingly close to the Line out now. Nobody owns a Creative player... their software support is horrible and the sound quality is suspect. No, you're not going to hear these differences with your white earbuds or your lousy Bose Triports; you're going to need actual GOOD headphones.

[Hello @ May 19th 2006 8:15AM]

#31
Being a monopoly is not illegal in the US. If a monopoly decides to use its power to prevent competition from emerging, that is considered illegal.

[Terry @ May 19th 2006 8:16AM]

I agree with the fact that legal issues between companies are being drawn up at the drop of a hat! It's overburdening our judicial system with frivolity! Besides, Creative and Apple weren't even the first mp3 manufacturers. Archos has been in the game for a damn sight longer than either of them and their products are usually the most technologically advanced. Consumers should stop and give a second glance again since their products seem to have improved in reliability and their technical support will doggedly work with you to help with your problems more than Apple or Creative ever did without digging in to your billfold. Let Apple and Creative both learn from their elders!!