Chinese workers reportedly toil in "iPod City"
By Evan Blass 
posted Jun 13th 2006 1:24PM
posted Jun 13th 2006 1:24PM
In much the same way that we'd rather not think about how the Big Macs we eat were produced, we also often ignore the manner in which our favorite gadgets are manufactured, because it's not as fun listening to tunes when you consider that the person who put together your DAP could be living like an indentured servant. And according to a recent report by the UK's Daily Mail entitled "iPod City," indentured servitude might not be a bad description of the working conditions inside the city-size Chinese factories that assemble the iPod nano and Shuffle, where the employees reportedly make about $50-a-month and live in crowded dormitories as thanks for working 15-hour days. It should be noted that even though the Mail story is supposedly based on first-hand reporting, their claim of 200,000 workers at one plant has been called into question, and at least one other factory owned by the same manufacturer has been certified by the International Labor Organization as free of human rights violations. While Apple certainly isn't the only device maker to outsource labor overseas, Wired points out that the company's tacit support of possibly-questionable working conditions is all the more ironic in the wake of its Think Different campaign, which featured the socially-conscious Gandhi and Caesar Chavez, among others. Unfortunately, our own lust for the latest and greatest products only helps fuel the vicious cycle that forces companies to drive down wages and seek the cheapest possible labor, so until we find a way to break our gadget addiction, we'll all be complicit in these practices to some degree.Read- MacWorld summary of Daily Mail story [Thanks, Marc P.]
Read- Wired analysis [Via Slashdot]
Shame on you Apple!
And imagine, without them, our iPods would be twice as expensive if they were made in the good ol US of A.
"And imagine, without them, our iPods would be twice as expensive if they were made in the good ol US of A."
Or Apple would make half as much profit. . .
Oh!!! Come on... Any gadget you buy that is made in China or where ever is made just like that. Funny how people can't find fault in the product go after its production. STFU!!!
I love how people point a finger at developing nations and damn them for their lack of labor laws, and pretend we didn't go through the same thing in the US during the industrial revolution.
Think about it. Without relaxed labor laws, developing nations cannot develope an industrial base, which will employ their people, who will eventually benefit from labor laws, once the industrial base has taken roots. If labor laws were put in place now, the employees would simply get nothing, as opposed to the meager living they make now. It's simply a matter of selecting the lesser of two evils, and a slow progression of labor laws is the obvious choice.
I can't believe the way some of you people are reacting. This kind of abuse is the supposed reason we invade countries. Its funny how if American companies do it its ok, but a if a foriegn dictator does it he's a danger to the world.
Big deal, they make more than the people that make the useless crap for wal mart.
You must ask, is their choice of work voluntary?
Can they leave at any time?
What are the work alternatives?
And was this environment of scarce/non-scarce job opportunities forced upon them in some way?
Working 15 hours a day 6 days a week... I doubt anyone would volunteer for that if other choices were available.
The Chinese government is now fascist, so it joins together with its crony state-capitalists to enrich themselves and...
voila! American-style plutocracy.
Their population, centralized one-party power, and history of domination over their acquiescent masses, makes for a fascist plutocratic powerhouse, that will easily outpace the US in mere years.
The only hope for the US people to continue in upward prosperity is to free the market completely.
Well odds are, that the company in question has a few "front" operations, which they get certified, and that is where they bring all of their prospective customers. They tour the plant, get fed some bs about how this is where their product will be made, sign the deal, apple execs leave never to return, and then big chinese corporation subs out the work to its "slave labour division". Just my opinion, but apple porbbly didnt know they were supporting slave labor.
Besides that, 50 a month and free room and board is good money compared to what these people made in their remote, almost 3rd world villages in the chinese outback.
Complain cause the poor people in this world cant eat or sustain themselves, and then complain when companies move in and give them jobs... :)
it just takes one worker to swipe a pod once a month, sell it on ebay and he'd be living large. Imagine if it was a whole crate.
Welcome to Globalisation, baby!
The bad thing with this is that all we "west world people" cant do so much against these situations in those fabrics bc its very hard for all of us to resist against ADVERTISEMENTS!
All day long they are showing successful people at TV with all the newest gadgets and "hip" jobs. Without those "popular" gadgets, produced for a very low price in China or 3rd World countries, we would be nothing in "our" world. We are just sheeps with money and we dont know how to define ourselves in a healthy way instead through buying unnecessary things the most time in our life.
And not to forget, Im one of those sheeps, too :(
This isn't necessary to develop an industrial base. This is necessary to develop an industrial base that attracts foreign investment. Otherwise they just go to the country with even weaker labor protections. It's two legs better, baby!
"And imagine, without them, our iPods would be twice as expensive if they were made in the good ol US of A."
As maybe they should be. We "need" iPods as much as we need third nipples. It's all thanks to our materialist, consumerist society.
trusting a story from the Daily Hate?
anything they print which isn't a lie is at least a half truth
I'm sure Creative employees work in much better conditions (/sarcasm).. or better yet.. Sandisk. Perhaps they can use this in their next ipod "guerilla" marketing campaign.. iSlave.
Wow, shocking - what do the altruistic, im-beter-than-you, tree hugging, world-AIDS-crisis Mac people think about this?
What color will the iPod navigation wheel be to represent Chinese slave labor?
healthcare food and housing are normally paid by the employer btw. It's normal in China for workers in factory towns to be housed by the manufacturer. My sister in law works in a factory town near Guanglong. It's a tight wage but not as bad as it sounds.
so, the same as sony - also made by the same company etc etc, prob half the electronics productions, but best put it in headlines cause its apple - and we all hate apple dont we - cause we dont want it to become popular and have to relearn an operating system!!!!
This is not just Apple people. It's funny how this is now interesting to people because it's shown publicly but there have been many different documentaries on this subject. My favorite of recent documentaries is "Mardi Gras - Made in China". http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0436569/
Basically shows a setup like this but instead of making a usefull gadget like an iPod they are making plastic beads. If you get a chance to watch this do!
--Chaz
when did this blog (assuming it can still be considered as such) get so deep. snap out of it, man, and gimme the good stuff.
More proof that corporations are evil.
I was thinking of that docu when I read this, Chaz. You beat me to it ;
We Need iPods as Much as We Need a Third Nipple.
I for one would love to have a third nipple. Why? Why not! My stance on third nipples is devoid of any sexual connotation, and I will not discuss the sexual benefits of a third nipple. Instead I will talk to you about the amazing benefits of both third nipples and iPods.
The prudish FCC may tremble at the possibility of polynipplia as a wide spread condition (poly=many nipplia=Latin for nipple). But society may rest assured; a race of three-nipple humans is nothing to fear.
Triple nipples like iPods are bound to generate an economic boom, and develop new forms of social interaction. As anybody with three nipples can attest there is a huge market of accessories and care products for nipple care, just as there is a huge market that revolves around the iPod. The new nipple related industry will generate wealth and jobs, just like digital music and the iPod have done.
Furthermore triple nipples and iPods are great conversation starters and people organize social networks around them. Groups devoted to iPods and third nipples abound on the Internet, these groups challenge the convention that new media and nipples isolate the individual, and are passive endeavors
So the next time you hear somebody say “We need iPods as much as we need triple nipples” say: “Hell Yeah!”
In the interest of journalistic integrity I must disclose that the writer of this article, while having no third nipple, is a shareholder at iNipple.
brooklyn22.com
WWBD (What Would Bono Do?)
This is sort of like saying that Kurt Cobain, with all his million$, was happier than I am with my $40,000 annual wage. It's our perception of money that makes this look so bad. I may have more opportunities, but that doesn't mean that I'm superior, just because I have more money and (as a matter of perspective) a better environment than these Chinese workers.
If people stop buying iPods, then these people will have to find new jobs. Who ever started this story does not care about those people, they're only starting propaganda to attack Apple.
Hey Todd,
Wipe that socially conscious smirk off your face. Let's examine your clothes you put on this morning. Your shoes. Your automobile. What you're eating for lunch. The house or building you're working in. The computer you're typing on.
How many of these were build/manufactured with fair labor standards? Do you even know where they were made?
"This is sort of like saying that Kurt Cobain, with all his million$, was happier than I am with my $40,000 annual wage. It's our perception of money that makes this look so bad. I may have more opportunities, but that doesn't mean that I'm superior, just because I have more money and (as a matter of perspective) a better environment than these Chinese workers.
If people stop buying iPods, then these people will have to find new jobs. Who ever started this story does not care about those people, they're only starting propaganda to attack Apple."
What...?
Cheap hard labor is the hisorical cornerstone of every developing economy, including the US and UK.
Exactly how does the author think the US, UK, Japan, S. Korean, and Taiwan got from point A to point B?
Do you think a Japanese farmer one day walked out of a rice field with a Walkman in his hand and the rest was history?
To be perfectly clear: these jobs are far better then the ones these workers previously had, and the influx of capital will build an economic infrastructure and skills for better jobs for them tommorrow.
Although these jobs may seem indentured servitude, it is the precisely exact desired course for the Chinese people and their economy, and the same course most developing nations take.
You dont just wake up from a communist economy with $7/hr jobs for a billion people.
Ben shut up!
"so until we find a way to break our gadget addiction, we'll all be complicit in these practices to some degree." I think that sentence is weak. Try ending the sentence with "we are all complicit in these practices." That's present tense, leaving no room for doubt.
Still I'm impressed that you even mention the conditions under which gadgets are produced. That's a big step forward for engadget. I hope to see more posts about this subject in engadget.
CORRECTION: The article says £54 a month, not $50 a month. That is about $100 a month. Not like that's great, but 2x what is quoted.
I believe the 'problem' with using Chinese labor is that if the conditions were if fact 'bad', would said worker be willing and able to say as much to his supervisors?
No. Out of fear for losing the job, said worker might be willing to endure all types of mistreatment.
Given that the Chinese government still takes people out back to be 'whacked', the 'moral' thing to do would be economic isolation.
But alas.....the U.S. depends on China to purchase our 'almost junk' bonds in order for us to maintain running our massive deficit.
But ya'll don't hear me though.
Wow look at all that profit... you have to love capitalism.
This advertisement was paid for by the Bush Administration.
Remember kids... nothing lasts ;)
So when do we get the article about the terrible work conditions for those making Sony TVs, or Samsung flat panels, or Creative DAPs, or Seagate hard drives, or socks or umbrellas or books or LG DVD-ROMs or.... Or pretty much anything made in any Chinese factory? The only reason this story was even printed is because Apple's on top and the guy on top is always an easy target.
Ok, so we all agree that working conditions in China are terrible, and that China is a growing threat.
So what are we going to do about it? If you don't like that an Ipod is made in China don't buy it. If enough people stopped buying Chinese made goods, then guess what? Appple and everyone else would find another country to manufacture in.
So you got it? Do your best to not buy anything made in China.
Alex,
Almost all of the items you mentioned are indeed made in China, in whole or in part. The important difference is that the manufactures of said items DO NOT run advertisements featuring Gandhi. They DO NOT publicly cry out for the world to recognize human suffering with red colored iPod navigation wheels.
I find it the height of hypocrisy for Apple to market their products under the "think globally, act locally" vibe, then employ slave labor to build their products in solely for greed.
http://image.com.com/mp3/images/story/u2ipod_2139.jpg
Alex,
You are correct in pointing out the prevalence
of Chinese goods. I have tried to avoid them. Gave up recently when I found that I can no longer buy a pair of US made hiking boots for under $150 (BTW, Wolverine boots are now made in China, yet still cost over $100).
More on topic: These working conditions are better
than, say, a U.S. mining or lumber company in the 1880s, but the economic model is the same. The worker lives and breathes for the company, but the bulk of the profit benefits the very rich. The richest 1% of the U.S. population own 40% of all stocks & bonds. They could give 2 shits about labor conditions in China or the eroding manufacturing base in the U.S.
How this is remedied in a civilized, free market economy is beyond me, especially considering the current state of American politics, Democrat and Republican alike.
hmmm...I think I want to go buy a new Ipod, and a 3rd nipple if anyone knows where I can get one of those
While this is the norm for most products today (just check your local China-Mart .....ooops Wal Mart) I'm a little disappointed to see Apple doing it since they always claim to take the higher road.
The major problem is that none of us are really living in the real world. What we "are" paying for items and what we "should be" paying are vastly different.
Once China is done with us (and that day will come) our "Wal Mart" economy will be pulled out from under our feet and we will be forced to wake up.
"WWBD (What Would Bono Do?)"
He would license U2 to be put on special IPods, that's what!: http://www.apple.com/ipod/u2/
This is just plain silly, it's not nearly as bad as it sounds. For one thing the $50 is almost pure spending money for things you don't really need. The factory supplies your shelter (dorms) and your food (you get all your meals at the cafeteria), etc. Add in the fact that $50 goes a LOT farther in China than it does in the USA, and it's not really a bad life at all. Plenty of Chinese people would love to get one of those jobs, have you ever seen what the poor countryside villages look like in China?!?
There's over 1 billion people there, it's a little bit absurd to expect 1 billion cushy desk jobs just like the one you have, where's the money going to come from, Mars? Idiots.
Indentured servitude my ass, by that logic you're an indentured servent too because you have to work. Keep in mind that the English are used to less work hours than American workers, so to them I guess a 15 hour day is like getting whipped or something. Over in England they have a stereotype of Americans as workaholics.
Finally the Daily Mail is not exactly the most reputable tabloid in the world (tabloid is what they call all tablet-form newspapers in England, I know most Americans think of tabloids as like the National Enquirer), so I wouldn't put too much faith in that.
Seriously, I read the article at Anandtech when they visited ECS' factories in China and showed the dorms and cafeteria meals and it's not bad (ECS makes most of the motherboards for prebuilt PCs out there).
Let's do some math shall we, as to exactly how much more worse off this Chinese worker is versus say, a McDonald's worker who's making minimum wage in NYC.
MickeyD's worker makes: $206/week or $824 a month.
Chinese ipod worker supposedly makes: $12.50/week or $50 a month.
MickeyD's worker's rent for month, like one room in a mediocre neighborhood: $500
Chinese ipod worker's rent: $0
MickeyD's worker's food costs: $150/month (and I think I'm lowballing this but I guess they get free mickeyD's food)
Chinese ipod worker's food costs: $0
OK so at the end of the month, yes the MickeyD's worker amazingly still has more money, about triple what the Chinese worker has.
Except uhh, $170 doesn't get you anywhere in NYC, while I'd bet that $50 would get you plenty of nights relaxing in China. Last time I checked $10USD would get you a very nice restaurant meal in China (no not in the richest section of Beijing, I mean the rest of China).
Seriously, unless you understand the culture over there it's fairly moronic make insane claims like the Daily Mail is.
hmmm this could've been serious stuff before but now it's not that big of a deal. think about it, almost everything we have, use, and eat.. comes from china... so it's pretty logical that they would been doing this for a long time now.. not just apple but every company that is located overseas..
According to the photo, iPods are woven from white thread.
Hey, they want the work. Face facts; there are poor people in the world. I didn't cause them to be poor, the folks that buy iPods and the folks that designed, market and sell iPods make the workers lives better.
It's tragic, but it's like this everywhere, in more developing nations than we'll ever hear about on the news, and hell, it's almost this bad even here. How many of you have ever worked in the restaurant biz with immigrants? Or retail -- or even worse, retail management? When you're being paid less than minimum wage once the salary is broken down to fit all the hours you spend there, when you can't pay any of the bills on your own, despite living frugally. Just because we're "free" (ha) to quit and "find something better" (haha!) doesn't mean that our reality is that much better. The article indicates that for those who are not housed in dorms, living costs and rent eat up "about half" their salaries (that $100 a month or so). That's BETTER than I had it personally, in the United States, some few years ago while working a salaried job for a respected national corporation while living in a small city in a very small studio apartment. Perspective. People here suffer as well.
Yes. Overall, the quality of life for a lower tier worker in the US is better than that in China. I'm not trying to directly compare. But there are plenty of people suffering in this country at a minimum wage that doesn't cover the minimum anything. But things are bad all over, people. You could write a story a day like this -- and this one's already been called into question. It bothers me that so many people, in this new era of journalism, will still swallow and follow anything any "newspaper" will print without a second thought, and I laud the Engadget writers for also printing the fact that there are doubts shed on this piece. There are plenty of companies that are proven worse than Apple for their conditions in overseas factories. While I can accept the inherent hypocrisy in Apple's campaign while they have any manufacturing in China -- because it is hypocrisy and welcome to big business, people -- they're hardly the devil for it.
It's very easy for us to sit here, in comfortably air conditioned offices or homes, on expensive machinery, to pass judgment on what is good or bad for working class people in China, but there are very few among us who can even imagine what is good or bad about their lives. We have no frame of reference. These jobs may be good for Chinese people. They may be secure and comfortable, to their standards, and living quarters there may allow them to send money home to families who desperately need it. WE DON'T KNOW. Unless we line up every factory in China, taking a representative worker from each, and people from other developing nations in comparable jobs, and talk to them all, without comparing to our own lifestyles (which is impossible), there's really no way of knowing.
To us, it seems tragic -- and it is. But to them, it could be a ray of hope. Sure, it could be brighter and they could be paid more. I'd even pay more for my iPods to ensure it. Would you?
Try to have some perspective. There are a lot of terrible things in the world. It's hard for those of us who live privileged lives (wow, I never say that about myself, but in this context, it suits) to even begin to understand the nuances of a life in China. Don't let one article dictate your opinion.
It's actually worse than you think.
There was a very interesting documentary on the Discovery Time channel that went into the growth of China and spent some time on looking into these large factories. There are no labor laws, there are shocking injuries occurring to people (hands/arms crushed) and because the new industrial revolution in China is making the farm lands even more poor there are endless people who will work in these factories.
They move to the city, lie about he credentials and then get these jobs. When something happens to them the factories just kick them out and they are now broke, disabled and destroyed.
I understand the need for a company to maximize it’s profits, but with the huge margins Apple is making on these things, some social responsibility should be applied. Either that or Apple and all their fanboi’s need to get off their high horse.
China...a two hour massage is 40RMB (Yuan) or the equivalent of $5 US.
Most street fast food is roughly 5-10RMB or 50¢ to $1.50
What the report also forgets to say is that the average factory worker gets 3 weeks vacation every 10 weeks of work. They work Monday-Saturday 6 days a week for 12 hr shifts (that's normal.) every 10 weeks, they get 3 weeks off.
Food is free at the factory cafeteria. Health care is handled by a company doctor. Public transportation is the norm and most people ride bikes so most don't pay for gas.
Kinda evens out in a weird kind of way.
For what it's worth, many folks presumably came to the cities and took these jobs in the first place because of: destruction of rural economies via industrial food production, destruction of rural ecosystems via development like giant dams, the draw of big city life and its excitement and who knows what other factors good and bad. Just something to think about. Also, who wants to live in a ginormous dorm and eat company food all the time? That's barely tolerable for college kids. I'm sure there's good, bad and worse about this situation - but it's nice to see the bad remembered and the worst alluded to in these discussions.
it is a dictatorship. and everyones point is?
they beat and kill their population, there is no free press and this is surprising?
it would also help if people here ACTUALLY BOTHER TO TRAVEL to China to see life there. Beat and kill their population? Give me a break.
That's like Chinese people thinking what happened to Rodney King is the NORM for America.
Stop trying to figure out what's going on with second hand accounts and actually TALK or SEEK opinions from people there, okay bub? My relatives still live in China...by choice. Like any country, there are good and bad parts. There's a significant amount of American ex-patriates there too making a living.
I have been to factories in China's Pearl River Delta. I have included a link to one of the places I visited- TTI Industries (they make powertools - Craftsman, Ryobi etc all in the same factory). I used to work on behalf of an International Bank and I was in charge of assesing our customers happiness with our letter of credit processing. I have also traveled across China visiting rural areas. The people that work in the factories are SO LUCKY. Factory workers are the upper middle class in China. They take a bus from their farming village to the city to work for most of the year, then return to help out their families. After working for a few years, most workers will set up shops in their home village. One worker I spoke with is planning to set up a nail salon in her village. She doesnt love to work (who does?) but she loves the fact that she is being payed extremely well compared to most everyone else. The Chinese have a long way to go in terms of health and safety of workers, but I agree with the above posters that yes this is a great start. Very few of you are capable of understanding the social and economical impact of these factories in China. This is a great thing.
well i can use this as another reason i dont like ipods
although my current reason is good enough....
I'm not sure what people were expecting to see here. When you buy your iPods, the packages clearly state that they are made in China. Have you ever heard of a factory in China that didn't sound like it was being run under sweatshop conditions???
Personally I want nukes on China. Now. Not because of the giant factories, or lack of labor laws, or human rights violations, or massive CO2 pollution, because we've all had incidents like that in the US during the Industrial Revolution.
I want nukes on China so it starts World War III. That's all I want, another world war and hopefully the end of humanity.
And if you couldn't tell that was sarcasm.
WWZJD?
yeah thats right, what would zombie jesus do?
now that everything is in perspective for everyone else...
shhhh
just wait until tomorrow and you will all be talking about your lattes and that new cant miss movie, and your social consciousness will be back on the shelf until the next article like this. Then you can all dust off your boring rhetoric and try to see who can puff out their chest the furthest and sound the smartest.
woot
The thinking seems to run:
"As long as I get my music, what happens in one of those backwards countries isn't any of my business. Hey, Apple is cool so...whatever."
What's abundantly clear is that most people commenting here have never visited China, never seen a Chinese factory, never done business with a Chinese factory, and have absolutely no idea what they're talking about.
Please don't comment on something you know nothing about.
Gee, I didn't know that Apple was the only company in existence that had stuff made in China. They are bashing Apple because the iPod is so well known and it generates a lot of hits for their site. Face it, over 90% of what you buy is made there. Take a look at the items in your own home. Almost nothing is made in the US anymore because we are cheapskates. It is terrifying how much we rely on other countries these days.
Yes, the conditions there are awful. There are plenty of documentaries on television about it that you can watch that will show you this plain as day. No need to go there to see for yourself. You couldn't anyway. They only let the film crews into certain parts of carefully selected factories (their best ones) and watched over the workers to make sure they didn't say anything negative. The propaganda and censorship there is so intense the younger public doesn't even know about the tiananmen square incident. They can't even search the Internet about it thanks to censorship software provided by Google, Cisco, etc. just to throw some other names out there.
Excuse me...? I go to school near one of these iPod factories(I know because I sometimes stare out the clasroom window and see the boxes leave, and I have asked about the factory), and the neighborhood is full of ex-pats. The stores nearby charge accordingly. Now, can you say that $50-$100 is a good salary for someone living in an area with frices fit for US people?
I actually LIVE in China and watch over 6 factories daily. When I first came to China I thought....what a shitty life! they make next to nothing! BUT... When talking to even our lowest paid employee, about the the same $50 US, he is happy that he doesn't live ina village where you make absolutley nothing and live in a bamboo hut with no heating or airconditioning or doctors for 100s of miles. He feels so lucky as do all our employees to have a job that he would do even if he didn't get paid the $50. You must realize that the $50 is pure spending money to buy gifts, buy big beers for $0.20 USD. So do the math. I hate reportings like this that produce this type of trash. But it makes a good news story to spin something like this against a company making a product that is all the craze!
All in all, I must say that I have never seen factory workers mistreated, out of the 12-16 hours a day they work 6 days a week, they also recieve TWO-2 hour breaks, all their meals covered in a cafeteria(which I, yes I, eat at daily and it is delicious), most get paid hourly, heath care is covered, workers are happy to have such a secure job and not be living in the middle of nowhere starving and living off the land.
Critics of this do not understand economics at all.
It's disingenuous to state these wages at $50/mo without any context...as to avg prices of goods in this country (far lower than in the US) and comparative economic opportunities (again, far lower than in the US).
Let's say we all stopped buying iPods and put these factories out of business. Do you really think these workers would be better off? No, they would have to settle for far worse.
It's sheer demagoguery to criticize these conditions in this manner. Also, it's interesting to note the lack of credibility of the source of this article: note that the claim that one factory has 200,000 workers has been called into question. Think about how absurd the claim that one factory has 200,000 employees.
Ignorance. Cynicism. Lunacy.
I know this factory, it does indeed have 200k workers, but this story is a pure propaganda piece.
My company audits factories in China that supply multinational companies similar to this case. These sorts of sensationalist stories are just so ridiculously wrong it’s pathetic, and the people who buy it hook-line-and-sinker are almost as bad.
Please, just try thinking about it for 5 seconds: “Would Apple risk manufacturing their products in a factory that places their workers (or themselves) at risk?”
Come on people - how do you think they place these multi million dollar orders? By telephone? eBay? It’s a very long drawn out process involving many visits to the factory during which every part of the manufacturing process is scrutinized - a key element being something called ‘Social Accountability’ - ensuring the workers are well protected.
(and to 'kristopher bennewise' - try hiding 200000 people. anyway there's no need for a 'front op' - this fty is the real deal, ...so iPod owners can all sleep soundly at night)
I work in a factory in South China. Some facts:
1. There are really terrible factories around, but these are usually very small, local shops who rarely manufacture for export. The local councils and government are trying very hard to crack down on these unsafe conditions and the situation is improving monthly.
2. Manufacture of goods that go to the Western world usually takes place in excellent factories with skilled, trained workforce, good conditions and good pay. A person working in assembly on the shopfloor would typically get RMB800 to RMB2000 a month.
3. Vegetables for a week would cost around RMB10-20. I bought a pair of shoes for RMB9. Of course you can also get a pair of Nikes for RMB700, but that's if you want to.
4. Much of the workforce is migrant labour from northern provinces who send a good portion of their wage home, to look after siblings, family or just to save. They see their time in the factories as temporary and will go 'back home' after a few years.
5. The average day in a factory would go like this: 8.30am start work. 12:30pm lunch (1 hour). Work from 1:30pm to 5:30pm. 1 hour for dinner and then optional overtime.
6. If you aren't nice to your workforce, they will bugger off and find a better job.
7. The Chinese have an amazing work ethic. On a factory floor, they are like robots.
8. Factories that export to the West, are almost always certified to ISO9001 and often ISO14001. Without these certifications, they would NOT get the work.
9. Customers, such as Apple, would typically have an auditing system which cover criteria such as quality control, management, social responsibility, environment, on-time delivery, information, confidentiality etc etc. This is called 'Vendor Appraisal', and factories have to pass this in order to get onto the Approved Vendor List of customers.
In conclusion:
- 'Bad' factories exist. But it's only the 'Good' ones that make the good stuff. And these 'Good' factories are arguably, the best in the world. Don't believe this? Come over to China and take a look.
I love the common theme of this thread, which essentially amounts to defending sweatshop style work on the basis that it's a good job for the economic status of the country. These are the same people who are undoubtedly well-off American/British citizens who go to college or have a regular, 8-9 hour work day.
Yeah. Go try working 15 hrs. a day a country with little to no labor laws. I'm sure you'll be happy about the $50-100 you're making then.
To Cry Havoc
So you are an expert on the labor laws of China? …and you also seem to believe that Chinese workers don’t want to earn MORE money working in these factories like this one making iPods?
So I guess you’ve somehow forgotten that a major problem with China labor law is not that it doesn't defend workers rights (which btw it does) but that the workers themselves don't want to adhere to them. They want the longer hours, they want the overtime pay.
I agree with 1 thing you say – the Chinese work much harder than your average American, European, frankly anyone from a developed country (where are you from?), but it’s not because anyone is making them work harder. Millions of Chinese people have moved to the manufacturing areas to earn more money to send home to their families so that they can build better lives. You saying that’s wrong?
How can you make any sort of judgment on this unless you understand the realities of what is going in China?
CS:
I shouldn't have to explain why working 15 hours a day is wrong, but the fact of the matter is we live pretty comfortably in our society working 8-10 hours a day. That's probably too much, as we see extreme stress taking an impact in America now too, and obesity, which is a unique problem in all of human history. It's never happened before.
Even IF (and I'm skeptical) the workers do want 15 hours of work per day, it presents manifold problems for the society. Human being should not have to devote over 60% of their time to working. If they work because they want more money, perhaps it says something about the society that is not willing to pay them a fair wage.
Secondly, as a psychology major, I have read research on the damage of work and working stress. Look at Japan, look at America, and now look at the development of China. It's taking an impact, both physically and emotionally. If you think the average person can handle working so hard for so long, you only need look at the Industrial Revolution to show that we are not, in fact, machines. We cannot keep up this pace of manufacturing. It is devastating to the human psyche to stay jammed into a small area for so long.
And in retrospect, even if we CAN work 15 hours a day, should we? Should it be allowed? If everyone on the face of the Earth had 15 hour a day jobs, great, but at what point do we cease to become living breathing beings and just fade into another cog in the machine of produce. People are dying in Japan of -stress- now. Their bodies just can't handle it. Stress is quickly becoming the most damaging human condition on the planet. It could very well make AIDS look pale by comparison in the not-too-distant future.
Any way you spell it, it's bad. It's bad for humanity individually (read: Wal-mart), it's bad for society as a whole when our lives become dedicated to working. You're free to think otherwise, but I will continue to disagree with you.
you Know. I didn't expect so many thoughtful responses from fellow gadgetiers. I was recently learning about Similar issues with goods, mostly clothing, made in the Marianas Islands. Much of what you guys have Stated was reported as true there but the companies could still say U.S. on the tag. The hot alternative now That companies are folding wider pressure --- prostitution, So sad.
Cry Havoc,
I WORK IN CHINA! 12 hours a day 6 days a week and make the same as any other factory manager and live comfortably off it. And I never went to college.
Say someone in the US makes $30,000 a year.
Uncle Sam takes about $7,500 before you even see it.
$22,500 is what you are left with
-$2,400 insurance(maybe more)
-$4,200 rent
-$2,000 utilities
-$3,650 food($10 per day)
-$1,800 transportation
=$8,450 you got left
that's $704 bucks a month, right?
Well 700RMB($80USD) is pretty much the damn same.
Your $10 t-shirt costs less than 10RMB($1.20)
Your bottle of soda$1.50- here 2RMB(about $.25)
A toy car for your kid $10.00- here, yep about 10 RMB
I could go on forever.
The difference is westerners have become such massive comsumers of other things like Social Acceptance, Going to a movie, buying lots of useless crap really. Here they are happy to be alive and can put a roof over their familys head. They don't waste all their money on silly gadgets(sorry engadget!), fast cars, new clothes, etc. We could all learn a little from the way of life in China.
Oh, And I don't want to hear that my numbers a a little off, I was just approximating, give me a break, they're close enough!
...typo...."Well 700RMB($-88-USD)"
BTW, Cry Havoc,
I do agree that stress is a major issue, but here....they don't push the workers hard, they just hire ANOTHER ONE. Again, at the factory I work at, they eat breakfast at 7:30, start at 8am-12pm lunch/sleep/family time resume at 2pm-6pm have dinner, if over time is needed, it is on a volunteer basis and they are compensated. In my area in Guangdong, this is how most factories work it, unless they do two shifts.
I really do understand the concern some of you have, but stories like this are total BS. $80 a month here is like someone in the US making $25-$30K a year. REALLY.
Cry Havoc
Better, though improvement needed.
Now – with your psychology major in-tow – you seem to be talking about something you might understand.
I fully agree with you that 15 hours is too much for anyone to work in a day, and you’ll be happy to know that the China Govt also agrees with you – this is beyond the limits of labor laws.
The point I was making is that the factory jobs you insinuate are so terrible represent a valued and vital opportunity for millions of Chinese people who would even work beyond the limit of the law if they were allowed to.
The fact you think people here are defending ‘sweatshop style work’ in China is completely misguided. This factory making iPods and thousands like it are not the work-prisons you and the Daily Mail would love to imagine them to be.
…but I suppose with that negative image it makes it much easier for you to point fingers and use generalization like “….these are the same people who…”
With a college degree yourself you must know its important to stick to the facts and make judgements on issues you understand, right?
Yeah, I agree Chen. My 2:54PM didn't come out right :P I didn't have a whole lot of time to write that one...
The point was, it's a matter of perspective. There's a lot worse in the world that fewer people care about because it doesn't involve Apple.
When most Americans are done driving to and from work and doing all the house chores, does that not add up to about 15 hours? Work related stress is truely universal, and while it is an issue, that's not the point of this thread...come to think of it, I think this thread has lost all meaning at this point...
As the article states, they arent the first and only ones, buts its sad that the former hippie and king of the planet would be involved in it. of course, expect the cult members to chime in with denials, facts and figure, and justifications aplenty. Nothing can tarnish the pristine white fruit.
It's worth pointng out the reputation the Daily Mail has here in the UK... it's read mainly by middle aged women and is always scaremongering about something, usually illegal immigrants. So take anything you read there with a pinch of salt.
The Times, The Telegraph, The Independent and The Guardian are the quality papers (i.e. broadsheet) over here.
As someone who has been to china and visited factories and production lines - including the factory which Apple made the original iPods at (in Penang, Malaysia) and a couple in Guangdong province, I'd like to clear up some of the "sweatshop" preconceptions.
If you're making hi-tech electrical goods, you have to make them in a good environment. That means clean, air-conditioned factories staffed by people who can do precision work - ie, fresh and not overworked.
Pretty much all the electrical assembly is automated, with SMT lines (bare PCBs an components in one end, fully soldered finished boards out the other) doing it all. The manual part comes in where these boards need to get assembled into products and tested. It's the exact same procedure as I've seen in electronics factories in the UK - except that in China they do it on a much bigger scale. The (almost exclusively female) staff sit there chatting happily whilst assembling product, earning what is considered a very good wage in Chinese terms - many have travelled hundreds of miles for such a good job.
Living conditions are what we'd call basic in the west - dormitories, mostly - but as has been pointed out it's a deal which means that the employees are well catered for in terms of healthcare, accomodation and food. It also means that their pay is pretty much their own to spend themselves or send back home. Some factories have gyms, football fields, etc too - any place mistreating their staff will lose them smartish to another company.
If you want to see bad work conditions, peek into the shacks by the roadside where lower-tech goods for local sale are made. These are truly frightening; the customers of these factories care about nothing but low price, and it shows - no fume extractors, no AC, no concessions to safety. On the other hand, that's where many of the local entrepreneurs start, and you have to start somewhere...
The Daily Mail? Have you ever read the Daily Mail? A more cretinous, right-wing, reactionary piece of thinly veiled Conservative Party propaganda I have yet to find (apart from the Daily Express). Basically, I wouldn't believe everything (or anything?) they print.
My spleen is now officially vented.
CS:
Again, I think you seem to be missing my point. You cannot compare jobs to other jobs within the same system and then cite those people as "lucky". That marginalizes everyone. The factory is clean, fine. The people are making more money than they could anywhere else, fine. But comparing yourself to someone who's lower in status than you are is a common phenomenon, and businesses use it to pay you less than they should. "Look how lucky you are! You can afford all that you need!" Nevermind that you have to work half of your life every week to get it, and that as wealthy as China is becoming, could be making triple to quadruple the wages.
If Jed feels he is lucky because he has a roof over his 6x6 house and Bill doesn't, nothing will ever be done about it. Because Bill feels he is lucky too: He may not have a roof, but at least he has 4 walls! Jason only has 3!
Stop comparing yourselves to the poorer people and thanking yourselves for being lucky, Joe. Start comparing yourselves up the ladder and asking why you can't have something better. Or don't, it's your choice.
Also, I see in a newer engadget post that Apple is investigating the so-called, "iPod City." This leads me to believe they are either doing it for publicity, or that they are actually concerned about the workers, or both. Why would they be concerned though, unless the conditions reported are not as they expected them to be? Seems like Apple is worried about all those "lucky" workers in China.
This picture shows a spinning textile mill...
What still floors me about ALL OF THIS!!!
CHINA IS A COMMUNIST COUNTRY!!
Why is it that EVERYONE fails to see or mention this? Instead of Kruschev(sp)standing at a podium with Kennedy, this time it's the Maoists laying in bed with US corporations. The saddest part is that the great dictator(er, um.... Decider(bush)) claims that he will never agree to ending the embargo with Cuba due to their "human rights violations"
Well its not unreasonable if they get worker benefits like full dental free college full medical and like a month of personal days. Oh and for God's sake they live in the ipod factory so they should get free ipods.
or beer, that'd keep them happy.
Please listen to workers' voice if you have any chance to visit to China.
Sure, the U.S. government is screwed up, but have you taken a REALLY good look at the government in China?! When you buy Chinese made merchandise, you are personally supporting the PRC! You can't SERIOUSLY think that the government there doesn't benefit financially from you buying that damn ipod! If consumerism wasn't such a PLAGUE in the U.S., (& to a lesser extent, other countries as well) then perhaps people might be a little more concerned with what their money is funding & a lot less concerned with whether THEY have as many "toys" as their damn neighbor! Whoever buys Chinese-made goods can rest assured that they helped purchased the bullets used on the Tibetan monks who have been & who will be shot & killed by Chinese soldiers simply for trying to leave the country. Think of that next time you go to satisfy your addiction to the need to buy & have more.
This is a correction to my last message:
Where the sentence reads "PRC", it should read "PLA".