EU hits Microsoft with $357 million fine
By Evan Blass 
posted Jul 12th 2006 12:40PM
posted Jul 12th 2006 12:40PM
Even though we've resigned ourselves to the fact that Windows Vista isn't coming out until it's good and ready, EU regulators aren't as forgiving as us when it comes to Microsoft playing the delay game, and have hit the software giant with a $357 million fine based on that 2004 anti-competition ruling. What's more, EU Competition Commissioner Neelie Kroes has decided to slap the company with a three million euro-per-day fine starting on July 31st if the document disclosure stipulation of the original decision -- which requires Microsoft to 
YES! Pay up!
Wow I don't know what to think of this. On one hand MS is a big empire and on the other they are just a company trying to do business. Being slapped with huge fines simply because they're successful.
If this eventually leads to microsoft opening up it's code to everyone so all OS's can us windwos programs that would be good I'd think. But I hope we don't regret it. I hope we don't end up with a bunch of OS's that can't talk to each other and cause all kinds of compatability issues.
is anyone else getting the cryokennel advertisment from madeineureka for a suspended animation pet transporter ... shouldnt there be some monitoring for the type of advertising shown on engadget? i got a great laugh out of the advert
$357 million...pocket change...if it shuts the whiners up..it is probably worth it.
This article does not reflect the real situation. The Eu wants MS to deliver details to the interfaces to gain access to windows servers. Nobody wants them to deliver the whole source code. Additionally they are supposed to deliver a windows without integrated media player. Maybe the engadget writers should do better research when writing those articles. A better source of information to this topic is http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/75137
but unfortunatelly it is in German :) Europeans love competition but we do not like companies trying to do whatever they want.
Well why would Microsoft want to release source code that cost them millions to develop to competing companies. That would be like Pepsi telling it's competitor how to make sodas.
Does this mean that the Xbox 360 will become more expensive to make up for this loss? Is the Xbox 360 doomed now?
Wow, what whiners the EU are. "Wah, we want an OS without that evil media player that ruins peoples' lives! And we want to know how you programmed your O/S so we can get a cheap knockoff in a few years."
"Being slapped with huge fines simply because they're successful."
They were convicted here in the U.S. by the courts and in EU by it's commision, which was upheld by the european courts.
They are being slapped by fines for not complying with the orders to disclose interface documentation not any source code. It's a huge(maybe not for MS) fine because it's being applied retoractively.
Instead of complying, Microsoft tried to get the EU courts to invalidate the commision's decree. They took a gamble and lost.
They don't charge $$$ a day because they come with their own integrated radio. Windows Media Player is actually easier to replace in a computer than a stock deck in a vehicle. And replacement is free with the computer. (I say replace, not remove, but with software, it doesn't really make a difference)
I think it would be hilarious if Microsoft would just close all their offices and research facilities in EU countries and stop selling Windows there. Imagine how businesses there would react to having to open an office outside of the EU just to do business with Microsoft and buy their products.
Nobody is forcing anyone to buy a Microsoft product, and Windows is certainly not required to operate a computer. Requiring Microsoft to give its source code is silly, and making them remove media player is sillier, given that you can use whatever you want to play video.
Teh onion-eating freedom haters want to destroy Microsoft and pirate Windows!
It's great to see so many posters with such a firm and well-informed grasp of what this case is about.
Stupid. Why would a company not want as many people to use as many of their products as possible? We don't see Google being fined for trying to affect everything we do onthe Internet, do we? All this anti-MS sentiment, when any business in their right mind would do exactly the same thing MS did.
I personally think that Microsoft should just say "Screw You" to the European Union and say that they aren't going to ship their products to the EU anymore and stop support there. I'm sure the people living in the EU would get pretty pissed off at the EU, especially the big businesses, changing how the EU is treating Microsoft.
Why should microsoft pay anything. They spent the money to develop the software. Why should they make it easy for other companys. Those other companys should spend the research money to get their software to run well on windows. And whats wrong with MS putting free features like media player and IE. I want the most for my money. if those companys want to cry they cant compete with free. maybe the need a new bussiness plan like the rest of the corporations out there. once its not profitable for MS to do OSes because of this they will move to other things and we will be screwed by no standards.
Microsoft isn't being punished for its success, it is being punished for the criminal activities that were partly responsible for that success. We expect that successful shoplifters and murderers will be punished for their success; what Microsoft has done may not be as serious, but it was still against the law.
I'm sure plenty of people beleive we don't need the law to control Microsoft; but the free market isn't going to do it. The free market doesn't benefit consumers unless there is competition, otherwise companies will just increase profits rather than lowering prices for consumers. Microsoft doesn't have much competition; so this EU punishment, which aims to increase that competition, seems like a reasonable punishment for illegally eliminating competition.
I find this whole situation highly ironic. Microsoft wouldn't have any business at all if not for the enforcement of copyright laws. You'd think a company that owes its existence to a law would have more respect for laws in general.
1 sue towards microsoft = apples whole bank..
i feel sorry for microsoft they are hated on by many people i love their operating system and office suite is so fucking great i dont care what anybody have t osay.
i use linux (suse) and mac os x tiger at home and i also have a windows xp computer and windows just freaking rocks..
i love the fact that i can go to any store pick up any hardware i want and i know it will be compatbile.
the eu is just a bunch of crying little babys always looking into digging into a succesful companys pockets and sue them for some stupid shit.
GO MICROSOFT I SUPPORT YOU TILL THE END.
*toe* the line?
Is that like when you draw a line in the sand with your toe and dare someone to cross it?
Solution: Pull all Microsoft products from Europe. They're too whiney anway. Use yer own damn O/S ye stinkin' Europeans! :p
thank god i live in norway (its in europe, but not in the EU)
holy hell... why don't they make coca-cola put their recipe on the net...
good god how stupid can someone get... i bet this is a french idea...
New computer:
- connect internet
- download firefox, opera, etc.
- download choice media player
or keep what's on there. Honestly, what do you expect people to play their MP3 files on a stock windows system with? What do you expect to browse the internet with to get those programs?
I hate WMP and IE with a passion, so I download whatever programs I want. You can compete, just compile something better.
MS is the biggest, blah blah blah. Aside from linux and OSX, I don't see any person developing a better OS and trying to market it.
And what law has Microsoft broken, Jim Summers?
Microsoft paid for and developed their code and OS, its thiers and theirs alone. If someone else wants to be Microsoft, do it the hard way.
Ohh, boo hoo! Diamler Chrysler has all the car technology, and they won't share it with me. I just want to make a car company to start some compeition in the free market, go after them, EU!!!
This is total BS, I agree with Jesse, Microsoft should give a big FU to the EU and pull their product. Then what?
The point of the case against microsoft is also that they are trying to obfuscate their interfaces to make it harder for software developers to create programs for windows. They are using their monopoly in one area to dominate another. This is illegal in the EU (and probably the US but they don't seem to have the guts to hold up court rulings.)
I'd really like to hear the opinion of the Microsoft fanboys on this issue.
After all, if they write such great programs, why do they fear the competition?
Mike
Do they sell Apple computers in Europe? If they do, don't they come with an integrated media player? Call your lawyers, time for more money!
ya they already tried the windows think with no media player Windows XPN Guess what? Not one person bought it, this means the EU is out of touch.
If Apple can have there systems with a photo, music player etc tied heavily to the OS then why can't MS?
Someone will quickly reply, becuase Apple makes there own hardware and software so they can.
I would respond I wish Microsoft took the XBOX teram and started making there own hardware just like Apple does and do exactly what Apple does, they say screw you when it comes to bundled applications.
EU? when are you going to sue Apple for bundling ITUNES?
And I don't recall seeing any Apple disclosures about there OS code.
Its loosely based on UNIX actually they did a great job stealing from UNIX and LINUX and calling it open when its blandly propieritary
this has nothing really to do with the lawsuit described, but i found it amusing. i'm beta testing a long awaited os, and every time i load the integrated browser, the browser crashes after about 5 seconds.
hence, i stick with firefox.
i agree with some of the earlier posts: if ms just pulled their product, that should end the eu's problems with them. *smirk*
"This is total BS, I agree with Jesse, Microsoft should give a big FU to the EU and pull their product. Then what?"
It'd never happen, so there is no 'then what?' :P
Summers hit the nail on the head with this one, the EU is protecting the CONSUMERS, it's stopping Microsoft from using it's power to dominate in many different markets (thus being able to inflate prices).
Your either going to agree with it or not, but the EU is looking out for the consumers by stopping illegal activities - just because it's microsoft doesn't mean the EU should change it's laws to work around them...that's what America is for ;)
I must be missing an awful lot on this one...
1. Why does Microsoft owe the EU anything at all? They're coming up with an OS to sell. Was there some sort of purchase contract between Microsoft and the EU?
2. What happens if microsoft refuses to pay? Then what can the EU do?
I'm not the biggest fan of microsoft or their products, but I really just don't understand what the problem is here on this one. It's MS's OS, why should they have to disclose their information to competitors?
Evidencing the greed of the EU in trying to finance their socialist empire by feeding off of American companies.
I can't belive some of the rascist comments I'm reading!
They don't the whole source code, just enough so they can write more compatible software. People don't have a choice anymore, sure you can get WinAmp and Firefox, but they dont work on the MS only stuff. That is the problem. I'm glad MS is getting sued, they deserve it.
And to the people who want MS to pull out of the EU market: They need the EU market. End of story. They need it more right now then the US market.
No, Apple's iLife programs (iPhoto, iTunes, iWeb, iDvd, GarageBand) are NOT closely tied into the OS. They are easily removed by anyone that doesn't want to use them, and there ARE competing programs out there that do the same thing.
Don't like QuickTime? Then download Micro$oft's Media Player for the Mac. Apple doesn't try to make you use QT if you don't want to.
That's the difference - M$ makes it difficult for competitors to make competing apps, and that difficulty has made it easier for M$ to become a monopoly. It is their reluctance to comply with the EU's orders that have resulted in this fine.
Again - like posted earlier - the orders do NOT apply to source code - only to API documentation to allow third party mfrs to write software that will work with Windows as well as M$'s own apps do.
No, the Eu will not sue Apple for bundling iTunes. They are not sueing M$ for bundling anything - just for anti-competitive practices that are illegal.
Face it, M$ is a monopoly, and is using illegal tactics to maintain that monopoly. THAT is what is illegal, like it or not. M$ fanboys just need to recognize that fact and move on.
INTARDNET!
Got to love an environment where the mentally challenged can post opinions based on PURE INTERNET fact, as opposed to spending ten minutes reading the real facts.
Still, I suppose it proves the gene pool needs more chlorine.
The case is not about all the source code, or just media player, it's all about compatibility, and access to APIs that mean people can write software that will work, without being forced to pay MS megabucks for certification, and partner programmes.
Get a clue kiddies.
There is no reason why the EU should be fining Microsoft.
#1 Bundled media players are necessary to compete with competitors like Apple and Linux based systems.
#2 Microsoft is NOT a monopoly, since Apple and Linux both compete. There are commercial Linux distros, 60% of the world's web pages are hosted on Linux, 10% of computers either use Mac or Linux, Microsoft is in the lead but there are global companies competing with it.
Okay let's say you un-bundle IE. HOW THE HELL ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO DOWNLOAD ANOTHER WEB BROWSER WITHOUT FIRST HAVING IE INSTALLED IN THE SYSTEM???
Let's let Microsoft's competitors bundle whatever the hell they want, though!
I'm actually mostly a machead, and I don't like Microsoft's products, but credit is due to them for really investing their own money and talent into their OS, and it's theres, and it's not the EU's job to water it down or give away its code unless Microsoft is in a true monopoly, which it's NOT.
And about APIs and code for developers, how many developers do you see out there having trouble writing programs for windows? Yeah, how about zero. The EU can't pull this crap out of nowhere when Windows has hundreds of thousands of programs written for it, more than any other OS.
if ms want money for certification thats their choice... then those programmers could just develop for mac or linux in stead
jeez... i would screw the little guy as much as ms if i was in there position
The EU doesn't care about the consumers when they talk about competition. They care about the competitors. They want to keep competitors in business. When someone succeeds then another probably fails. They are protecting the companies that fail (competition).
"jeez... i would screw the little guy as much as ms if i was in there position"
Good god, The Snapple, I hope that that was sarcasm, or else you have my vote for most ironic post of the year.
The point of a free market economy is that all competition has the same ability to generate revenue. Microsoft has stiffled this competition so they get fined.
It's not the fault of the French, even though President Bush would have you believe that. Goddamn French they eat frogs and laugh like frogs, blah blah blah. And Americans looked like stuffed capitalist pigs (quite literally).
None of this has anything to do with this issue so please keep your prejudicial crap to yourselves and argue the issue at hand. Read the article and quit with the knee-jerk stereotypes.
Mike sez-
...make it harder for software developers to create programs for windows.
Actually, the latest release of visual studio makes it easier than ever to develop an application for windows.
So, sorry mike. you sir are misinformed
douche.
I don't get how it is so hard to write software to work on Windows. I know plenty of people that do it. There are all kinds of programs written by college students and some people who don't even have formal training. If you want to write a program, get the SDK and write the program. If you can't get the program to work then maybe it is your own fault for being a crappy programer. If Windows was really that hard to code for then there wouldn't be millions of third party programs, apps, and games.
No one is talking about pulling InternetExplorer from Windows.
It can't be done anyway, sinc eit's heavily tied into the operating system since Windows 98.
I haven't read into the Media Player and source code issue, so I won't comment on that. However, I do know that the EU is not seeking total opening of the Windows source code to competitors.
And to whoever asked the question of what the EU was going to do if Microsoft wouldn't pay: Ban their products in every country in the European Union.
That probably wouldn't be good for either companies in the EU, or Microsoft but business in Europe would not break down all of a sudden. Microsoft's profits on the other hand would.
So that would be a rather effective action. Not pretty but effective.
Oh, and I'd recommend people to stop their anti-Europe/anti-France propaganda. Nobody with even the slightest clue is gonna take you serious with that crap.
It is intersting to see that there is one sentiment that is even stronger than the hate against Microsoft and that is nationalism.
So . . . doesn't this open a pretty big security hole? Not that Microsoft hasn't been absolutely dapper about providing them by the truckload already, but it appears to me that this is screen door on a submarine silly.
What if I dont want MS competitors to have the source code to what I run on my servers...
Wow. It dosen't seem to have been mentioned here. But if you add the 280 million euro fine which was just for DEFYING the 2004 anti-trust ruling, to the original 497 million fine, you get a total of 770 million euros which is nearly A BILLION DOLLARS. That is a mind blowing sum of money by anyones standards but Microsoft themsleves chose to exacerbate the situation by defying the ruling. The EU is right, no company is above the law and that includes Microsoft. I am suprised to see that many Engadget readers have taken this ruling by the EU as an attack on America, and bemused by the fact that while bumbling around for some kind of racist retort the chose to insult France showing there acute lack of knowledge about the EU and lack of education.
P.S. If Microsoft ceased trading in the E.U. they would lose far more than a billion dollars then maybe everyone would use MAC OSX, which would lower our cortisone levels
Okay, that’s the second time some one has mentioned racist criticism. Which “race” in particular are we talking about here? Just curious.
It is a falicy that the EU believes in the free market economy. If it did, it wouldn't subsidize member countries' farmers to the tune of $60bn a year just so that non EU farmers' goods cannot compete.
Hello bob...
in response to: 'Which "race" in particular are we talking about here?"
specific quote - "i bet this is a french idea..." I think the insinuations are clear enough.
Perhaps we should reclassify it as xenophobia, but then only 5% of people here would know what I am talking about, eh bob?
Microsoft's stance is that they are being victimized- and I tend to agree without claiming they acted completely within the law. They already have spent thousands of hours/$ trying to comply, yet the EU changes or reclarifies what exactly they need to come up with. The fine amount is just too gigantic- are they saying Microsoft has profited that much by making it HARD TO WRITE WINDOWS APPZ? Crap, last I checked there were billions of windows appz out there, and MANY other companies make a good living out of interfacing with windows. You don't see Adobe unable to progam based on some lacking documentation.
And, yes most of it revolves around the stupid media player- and as someone said they provided a non WMP (N) version and noone went for it.
My question is- what does the EU spend their 1 billion $ tax on the USA on? Are they going to improve anything for the consumer here, or just the gold plated appointments in their offices?
As for France, sorry, but they love to shut the entire country down just to prove a point... so on my Euro vacation when we couldn't even get in the country as all air traffic, train, and bus workers went on strike, we skipped France and took our Euros with us, wondering what the hell they were thinking...
Now I am no jingoist, I love Europe, but the Euro-Zone just doesn't get free market capitalism, and Europe's economy will continue to lose out until they loosen up.
Anyone ignoring the truths just because they despise M$ should be afraid of the backlash against innovation and how it applies to other companies... that Apple is looking pretty closed and proprietary to me!
Why would only 5% of the people on this board know what xenophobia means? Do tell.
I'm just amazed when I read all the relatively uninformed quotes. Not from the uninformed and opinionated people because I consider myself one of those. But instead from the holier-than-thou people calling the first ones stupid and racist.
But not one to miss out on the fun here's my 3 cents (2 euros):
1) France is a country, not a race. (bob beat me to asking this one)
2) You CAN remove IE from Windows regardless of MS's whining that it is "integral". Part of an older court case involved an expert demonstrating how to do it.
3) How would I download Firefox/Opera/Netscape without IE pre-installed? With a copy on a CD or I would just FTP the file.
4) The original article did us a dis-service by not detailing the nature of the lawsuit requirements, which has led to many comments about "handing over source code" and then "I know ### people writing software for windows". I will guess that the nature of the lawsuit goes way back to the court ruling that made MS semi-divide it's application dev office from the OS office. The claim was that MS was providing APIs that allowed mediocre performance while the MS Office developers were using their "back door" access to perform operations much more efficiently. The result? MS Office ran much faster than competing software. Was this truly happening? I have no idea. But I remember it was a critical point in one of the many anti-MS court cases. I predict (but admit I don't know) that the EU lawsuit is based on similar complaints: MS is not sharing sufficient details so competitors can make "fairly" competitive products.
I won't comment on favor or against microsotft as this is a so heated issue... i just want to clarify the idea on this comments and article are COMPLETLY WRONG... they don't want the source code for windows... no one is asking for that... and is not about how hard or easy is to make windows apps... it isn't even about internet explorer. Is about non standard server protocols and documentation of those so other software can interact with windows. It is also confusing for me because all the generalized missinformation. But well, it is a blog so you can write what you want
I won't enter on especifics and i won't tell anything about the documentation being right or wrong because i don't know.
Seems like so many people are saying you can't get the other browsers without going online to download them with IE.
Here in NYC, AOL has been distributing their installation discs in many places.. supermarkets, computer stores, etc. If EU wants MS to stop bundling IE and WMP in its OSes, they should start making installation discs for ALL internet browsers in the world like AOL does here, distribute it in all sorts of stores, to make sure people can get it whenever they want. And provide links to places where users can download popular media players like WMP, VLC, WinAMP, iTunes, etc.
If EU is willing to do that, then companies like MS and Apple can stop integrating their own browsers and media players into their OSes. But I think they should be included in the installation kit.
Microsoft should be fined for releasing Vista and calling it a new operating system when it is really just XP SP 3.
Isn't evident from some of the foolish comments. Are you trying to excuse these stupid comments or something? ANYWAY we are digressing from the real topic which is the enormous fine and additional fine, nearly 1 BILLION DOLLARS.
Who's excusing what?
ARE ASKED YOU WETHER YOU, BOB, WERE TRYING TO EXCUSE THOSE FOOLISH COMMENTS BY QUIBBLING OVER SPECIFICS WHEN YOU QUITE CLEARLY GET THE POINT, how old are you?
Damn the EU. I totally agree MS should just quit selling windows anywhere in the EU. Their rules are worthless and non-sensical. Why not go against Ford for not allowing you to order your car with a honda air conditioner unit? Why not sue Toyota for selling their car with a built in radio? This gives unfair competition to pioneer and alpine because they dont have a chance to sell their product since most people just keep their factory radio. its FUCKING STUPID if you ask me. Microsoft is making a full featured product and they are being punished for it. Think about it, do you REALLY want a copy of windows that has no media player, no internet browser, no calculator, no email program(do i really need to continue this list?) Is there a clear definition somewhere that says what you can and can not include with a 'operating system'? How about cd burner support? oops, we better axe that too or else roxio and nero will start complaining. The fact that Windows is open enough to even allow 3rd party programs to work with the OS is more generous then i would be. If i was running Microsoft, i wouldnt allow any non-microsoft product to run on my OS. if you want to make a spreadsheet to compete with my spreadsheet, make your own damn operating system to run it on and quit leeching my development time! Microsoft is far more generous then necessary. People are F*CKING STUPID.
I asked a simple question about why race was being brought up. You responded by making a condescending remark about 95% of the readers here. I called you on it. You then claim I am somehow was excusing anti-EU/French comments being made. I then asked you to clarify. Now respond by accusing me of quibbling about specifics and then ask my age...which seems rather trivial and specific.
It really is useless trying to prove wether the fine is fair or not. Especially based on misinformation. The law is above microsoft, and if MS wants to sell products within the EU, they have to abide by EU's laws. Simple as that. If not, Microsoft can go ahead and lose a lot more $$ in the long run, than the imposed fine. I'm sure they have smart people over there that will make the "right" decision. And do stop posting offensive comments against other nationalities, and nitpicking little details like "race" vs "nationality". You know what the guy is talking about, why don't you stay on the damn subject.
I'm sorry. I asked you a question I did not make a assertion (about whether you were trying to defend those silly remarks). In addiion to my "condescending" remark I suggested that these comments were instead xenophobic. Surely you must see how far you have digressed from the actual topic in hand. I ask you about your age because your stubborn and persistent behaviour (every new question you ask is not on the totality of my original post but something specific from the most recent thing I have said) is consistent with someone of an age I would not expect to be having a discussion on engadget. ALRIGHT
"Damn the EU. I totally agree MS should just quit selling windows anywhere in the EU. Their rules are worthless and non-sensical."
OMG We have the same rules in the U.S.
It's illegal to use a monopoly in one area to establish one in another. MS was convicted of this in the US.
No one is says MS can't make a "full featured product," whatever that means. They just can't use thier monopoly over the desktop to prevent PC manufacturers from installing a rival media player.
And yes Toyota would be sued if they prevented dealers from being able to install 3rd party radios in new cars.
falcom:
Actually I would *love* to have an OS that has no browser, email program, calculator, etc. After all, those are APPLICATIONS. The goal of the OS is to abstract the hardware so the applications can use it. (And I guess thanks to MS, the OS is now expected to provide a GUI for the end user.)
Perhaps if MS made an OS that did what an OS is supposed to do and nothing else they could concentrate on making it more reliable. Instead they keep encroaching on application space and calling it "full featured". I'm still surprised that MS has not rolled antivirus in (thus killing Symantec) and calling it "integral part of the OS that we can't remove".
I find it odd that the deadline was July 18th yet they were fined before hand. WTF? Anyone ever get pulled over for speeding befoire you actualy did so? Probably not.
Oh well, gotta prop up the incompetent whiners somehow and I guess several hundred million goes a long ways towards that. Almost a billion now when you add in the last fine. Where does that money go? Can anyone tell me where the last $600mil fine went? My guess: hookers and blow for the pencil pushers and their cronies.
As long as the EU continues to prop up Airbus with their flat-out subsidies they can kiss my red white and blue ass. Fucking hypocrites.
For a company, and an operating system, that everyone loves to bash and troll upon, they certainly are lacking sufficient creativeity to 'create' their own stuff. The EU is a bunch of whiney countries looking for free money--because no one loves them. Boo-hoo.
Personally, I'd stop selling products, and support, in Europe and let them eat their Linux and Apple cakes. No need for source-code if you can't install software on missing operating system, no?
IK:
They fined them before the deadline because the EU has the pre-cogs from Minority Report working for them.
I'd tell you what country they're in but that would make me a racist!
Very cute Tracy, the EU is based in Belgium. The ruling dates back to 2004. That is when they were fined $630 million. They then chose to defy it and are being fined a further $357 million for the period December 2005 - June 2006, when according to the comission they FINALLY began to comply with the ruling. Now they are being told they have until July to release the information, and if they don't they will get fined $4m a day. This takes the fine into 10 FIGURES. If Microsoft don't stop f*cking around the total fine will be as long as my phone number.
"Personally, I'd stop selling products, and support, in Europe and let them eat their Linux and Apple cakes. No need for source-code if you can't install software on missing operating system, no?"
This whole thing with dropping out of europe seems to be brought up everytime a ruling goes against a big company. They wont drop out of Europe, it's not like it's some tiny market that wont affect them by doing so.
Microsoft would lose more money by dropping their products from Europe than they would if they just paid their rightly given fine.
The term to 'toe the line' comes from the British Houses of Parliament, where MPs and Lords are required to keep their toes behind a line dividing them from the opposition. The dividing space is the equivalent of two sword-lengths apart; the rule was imposed to keep order in the house.
The term 'left-wing' and 'right-wing' also traces its meaning from here; conservatives sit in the right wing of the Commons, and liberals on the left.
History is fun.
On the issue of MS; I think the ruling is fair, we're much more touchy about competition here than you tend to be in the US.
I think Apple should definately get some EU love next, for iTunes. It comes pre-installed, uses a proprietary codec in the online store, and is required if you want to use an iPod. Shady.
So many people in the comments here have got the wrong end of the stick because of the bad reportage in the original article. This isn't about a media player, or how easy it is to write programs for Windows - It's about documenting the protocols used in interoperating WITH Windows. eg. You've a Windows Server in the office and you want to access it's shares via your Mac/Linux box/Playstation/mobile phone/Network device/PDA and share files - How do you do that? Microsoft provide no documentation on how to do that outside of being able to use a Windows Client by using their API. The API is published. The protocols behind the API are not.
1) The EU all along have told Microsoft that they do not want source code as documentation - they want full and accurate documentation. Despite this, earlier this year they gave just source code.
Source code is bad news because any developer viewing the source code is then tainted with Microsoft intellectual property and can not then go on to write open source code without being accused of leeching MS's code. Plus source code can be notoriously bad to interpret particularly if some of it dates back to the 1980s. The EU knew this beforehand which is why they explicitly ruled out source code.
2) You don't have to have 100% of a market to have a monopoly. Microsoft are a monopoly.
3) The EU have explicitly said Microsoft are free to licence the source code to anyone they want under their own terms. If Microsoft only wants to licence the source code for a billion dollars, that's up to them.
4) Apple aren't a monopoly. You don't have to use iTunes with your iPod. You don't have to buy from the iTunes store.
5) The whole Europeans are onion eating, commie slackers / America No.1 thing is plain stupid. The petitioners against Microsoft in this case with the EU are IBM, Real, Nokia, Oracle, Redhat and others. Spot the American companies going after Microsoft ?
From these posts you can see how so many people don't have a clue about marketing tactics and cannot distinguish a good company from a *really bad* company that will do *anything* to take their (the customer's) money. No matter how much and how often the EU will sue M$ they don't quit their illegal tactics.
My advice to all of you naive M$ supporters:
Go buy a couple of really good marketing books, educate yourself and THEN post your opinion about marketing tactics. Until then, your opinion is worth zero (0).
Also: Kids, please do not post on these subjects. It's for grown ups.
Bravo Shaun, very good post!
OT
Tracy L, an answer to your 1): No, 'France' isn't a race but 'French' is or atleast heavily implicated. And from Merriam-Webster
*race
2 a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b : a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics
...and ppl were just blaming French as they are such and such .
"2) You CAN remove IE from Windows regardless of MS's whining that it is "integral". Part of an older court case involved an expert demonstrating how to do it."
The case wasn't about whether IE could be removed. It was about whether it could be removed without breaking other functionality in Windows as well as the thousands of ISV applications that used IE's technologies. The answer was/is no.
The demonstration by the plaintiffs (aka competitors) in the case consisted of 67 CDs of various XP Embedded images that the plaintiffs actually thought would be feasible for Microsoft to distribute to OEMs and end-users. As expected, the judge thought the plaintiffs were nuts, and also didn't like that they didn't provide Microsoft with a copy of their evidence (a computer and 67 Windows Embedded images) in the allowed time for Microsoft to plan their rebuttal.
When Microsoft became a minopoly the United States made a antitrust case against them. The reason why the United States droped the case is because every service on Windows was a monopoly. In the end Microsoft would have to make a operating system with no services. The united States concluded that also Windows would have to work on less hardware to end it's monopoly on hardware as well.
Even the cursor would have to removed because it is a minopoly service. They wanted the OS in two parts, one part just the OS and the other part the services. The services would be installed the way you chose windows updates, pick and choose style. Someone in the government found this im asuming "silly" and dropped the case.
They had to attack all services to be fair. Also to call Windows a monopoly is techanlly false. As long as Linux is free and provides similar services Windows cannot be a monopoly. The reason Microsoft doesnt want to give the API protocols is not only because it is their trade secret and that makes their OS succseeful it will also make the OS insecure. (it's good to know who has access to the API protocols).
Lets look at the fines. Fines are created as a penalty so people will not repeat the same action. Fines are fixed in most cases to prevent abusing the power of fining someone or a company. If you look at the average person (me) I cannot afford a $357 million dollar fine. And i'm aslo asuming many people cannot afford this fine as well, making it an unfair fine for public businesses reguardless of income. A company can be a monopoly and make very little income or profit.
It's also good to know that the antitrust law was mainly created for the companies in the energy industry. It was made to prevent tactics in the antitrust law. The goal of the law was to prevent there being one source of energy in the market(oil electricity companies). Because if the lone business failed it would be a major impact on the world economy. The antitrust law was not built to control software and the way the software business operates.
"Monopoly
A situation in which a single company or group owns all or nearly all of the market for a given type of product or service. By definition, monopoly is characterized by an absence of competition - which often results in high prices and inferior products.
For a strict academic definition, a monopoly is a market containing a single firm." - Dictionary.com
Note it says all or NEARLY ALL of a given type of product. You do not need to have the entirety of a certain market to be a monopoly.
Microsoft cannot pull out of the EU, it is too big a market. I think the fine may be a little extreme and should be smaller, but Microsoft should pay, they defied an EU ruling.
Apple's products are not integrated deeply into OSX, you can get rid of them easily. iTunes is tied to the iPod, not to OS X.
"Wow, what whiners the EU are. 'Wah, we want an OS without that evil media player that ruins peoples' lives! And we want to know how you programmed your O/S so we can get a cheap knockoff in a few years.'"
Windows already IS a cheap knockoff. I think computers everywhere would break down and weep if Windows itself got knocked off. :D
"...Apple is looking pretty closed and proprietary to me!"
Yes, I totally agree, but the main differences are that Apple makes their software to such a standard that in many cases, you wouldn't want or need to use anything else; and with the probable exception of QuickTime and its embedded frameworks within Mac OS X, most stuff they bundle with the OS can be removed without detrimental effect. The reason they bundle it, just like Linux developers and Microsoft, is so users don't have to go out and download and install apps themselves in order to start doing stuff.
"The fact that Windows is open enough to even allow 3rd party programs to work with the OS is more generous then i would be. If i was running Microsoft, i wouldnt allow any non-microsoft product to run on my OS. if you want to make a spreadsheet to compete with my spreadsheet, make your own damn operating system to run it on and quit leeching my development time! Microsoft is far more generous then necessary."
YOU, falcom, need to shut the hell up, and then start your own software company built on the principles you stated in your post. See how long that business survives. Even Apple, which probaby has a higher ratio of "stuff we cover with our own software" to "stuff we don't" than Microsoft, still relies HEAVILY on the third-party OS X developer community to complete their ecosystem.
Microsoft cannot pull out of the EU, it is too big a market. I think the fine may be a little extreme and should be smaller, but Microsoft should pay, they defied an EU ruling.by JW
So you would agree with paying a $357 million dollar fine? If you had a Monopoly in the market but only made $325 thousand a year?.....This would make you in debt. If they are to be fair they must fine everyone the same ammount for this offence. By defying the EU is a message telling them they can't get away with doing this to other businesses.
It's also giving a message to the EU that they cant fine them so easily. In my opinion the EU is behaving how you would expect the mafia to behave.
"The fact that Windows is open enough to even allow 3rd party programs to work with the OS is more generous then i would be. If i was running Microsoft, i wouldnt allow any non-microsoft product to run on my OS. if you want to make a spreadsheet to compete with my spreadsheet, make your own damn operating system to run it on and quit leeching my development time! Microsoft is far more generous then necessary." by falcom
YOU, falcom, need to shut the hell up, and then start your own software company built on the principles you stated in your post. See how long that business survives. Even Apple, which probaby has a higher ratio of "stuff we cover with our own software" to "stuff we don't" than Microsoft, still relies HEAVILY on the third-party OS X developer community to complete their ecosystem.by Shunnabunich
You must understand that falcom was stating that he should have the freedome to do whatever he wants with his software. He was refering to freedome issues not a OS he is going to make, or how successful that type of OS would do. Focus on what hes talking about, freedome.
I don't think I understand your question... I said I think the fine should be smaller, because $1bn US is a lot of money, even for a company like Microsoft, they can take the hit, but its not like its unnoticed. I think it should all be relative, Microsoft makes X amount of dollars per year in this market, so the fine should be X amount of dollars perhaps? If that makes sense...
"So you would agree with paying a $357 million dollar fine? If you had a Monopoly in the market but only made $325 thousand a year?"
Umm.. it really WOULD be nice if people actually took upon themselves to do some research. Good heavens, you might actually learn something.
The EU can fine maximum of 5% of the companys daily turnover (meaning revenue in the UK) for non-compliance, which means that in microsoft's case EU can't fine more than $5.5 million per day. That still leaves them with 95% of their daily revenues, which really shows how small a fine this is for them.
On further note, the European Committee for Interoperable Systems, that is behind this whole case, is an industry group including the following members: Adobe Systems, IBM, Nokia, Oracle, RealNetworks, Red Hat, and Sun Microsystems. Can you spot any american companies?
The amount of totally retarded comments by ignorant rednecks is just unbelievable. No, the EU is not xenophobic and they DO NOT want M$ to reveal their whole source code.
It is (as stated by a fellow German above) the simple ask for the interfacing code in sever software. This IS important because there are a lot of OS floating around in the server market and without the interfacing knowledge, the other manufacturers are doomed. M$ is trying to take advantage of their power and abuse it.
You see, the EU is FOR competition, not against it.
Get your facts straight before you post. Else it's just ridiculous.
I agree with many of you Snapple, Steve and Jessie to name but a few. Microsoft developed this source code. It's theirs that’s right they own it they should not have to “give” it to anyone. It works well or millions upon millions of computers or people would not be using it. Are there alternatives hell yes there is.
I also wish Microsoft just closed shop down in the EU and see what would happen then, sorry no computers with the Microsoft operating system in the EU. I would love to see them squirm.
If you can’t invent it yourself sue a company for the formula it’s the EU way. I can just imagine some great commercials Microsoft could do.
Yet again the EU shows just how constructive it can be. I'm so glad as a UK citizen that I have this group of power hungry UNELECTED muppets having a major influence on the way Europe and it's member countries are run.
I TOTALLY AGREE with what has already been said. MS should flip the EU commision the bird and pull their products out of Europe as a whole!
What next? The EU commission suing Pfizer because it needs to know how to get a boner?
I'm surprised that there are some people who are still desperately clinging to the argument that Microsoft is not a monopoly. It is. Get a clue. And if you think this isn't a bad thing look at what happened with Internet Explorer: when Microsoft first decided they wanted to break into the browser market, they put a lot of money and resources into making something that could stand up against Netscape Navigator. Due to the unique advantage offered by their method of distribution (i.e. bundling it in with Windows) Microsoft could guarantee that, to the vast majority of consumers, this was their only point of access to the internet. This total integration was further enforced by Microsoft strong-arming computer manufacturers into not bundling any alternatives.
Years passed and slowly the resources and money pumped into the team behind IE dwindled, until there was only 4 people working on it (and their job mainly consisted of plugging holes - and if anyone who reads this is half the gadget geek I expect them to be then they should remember how few and far between these security updates were issued) there was no need for any more effort to be wasted on IE, to the vast majority of PC users Internet Explorer didn't even have a name: it was THE internet.
More years passed and viruses and malware reigned supreme and, while we invested in firewalls and virus checkers, Internet Explorer stagnated and aged badly.
But, in a way, Netscape fought back. Out of the ashes of the company emerged Firefox that - with it's tabbed browsing, greater security, more persistant updates and fixes, skinnable appearance and customizable extensions - claimed to be able to help you "rediscover the web". Distributed freely (mainly marketed through the aid of geek-to-geek word of mouth) Firefox would eventually gain a significant portion of the browser market (rocking at something around 15%, I think). Naturally Microsoft could not allow this aberration to continue and this genuine threat to their superiority (Microsoft still has over 80% of the browser market)kicked their collective ass into gear and led to the release of IE7 that - with similar features to Firefox but with greater integration into the Windows OS - will be bundled in with Windows Vista...when that is eventually released.
You can draw your own conclusions from this (I imagine most of them to be along the lines of "U R Gay europen") but to me this highlights several key points:
1) That competition is VITAL to growth and development and for too long Microsoft managed to muscle itself into an unchalleneged position, to the detriment of us consumers.
2) That Microsoft WANTS a monopoly and is engaging in business practices designed towards that end. Therefore it is not enough for Microsoft to be merely challenged by rivals, but also by the law (that exists in Europe AND America).
3) That, with Microsoft in the position it is in now, the long-term success of competition such as Firefox is severely limited. With the release of Vista, along with the the mass market release of IE7, the majority of consumers will resest by default to the new IE. Geeks may stick to Firefox, but to the majority they will recognise many of the features they enjoyed in Firefox and stick with the bundled program. Obviously, if Microsoft keeps up with the security fixes and modern features this isn't neccesarily a bad thing but, based on past experience, this isn't going to happen.
Any monopoly (or 'aspiring' monopoly) needs to be constantly challenged. Which is why I am in favour of the fines, even though their impact seems to be fairly limited and seem to be more a symbolic gesture (kind of like "We've got our eyes on you"). Perhaps if the American government woke up and realised this we, the consumers, may see greater benefit. As it happens, with Vista upon the horizon and Microsoft aiming to replace PDF, JPEG, MP3 and make their Word format the universal standard it looks like Microsoft is unwavering in their efforts to totally dominate all aspects of our lives.
Ok lets get rid of some incorrect facts here:
1)Microsoft does not have a monopoly in any markets that it competes in! for Example office has competitors eg open office therefore not a monopoly according to any dictionary, and most countries laws (EU, USA incl) therefore to microsoft a monopoly is INCORRECT!!!
2)Microsoft DOES NOT need the EU!! market (remeber the euporpean market is different to the EU market) this can be seen in all sorts of reports from microsoft and various respected research companies.
3)Its the APIs the EU want however without microsoft taking the comissions ruling to court it would have been the WHOLE SOURCE CODE!!!!
4)Microsoft did not violate ANY legislation (commit illegal practices) because under EU law the person responsible would be charged and that has not occured.
5)The EU is doing more damage to its people then good!! i mean the EU spent millions $$$$$ (and so did microsoft) on this whole media player bullS**T and it ended up costing the EU citizens a massive amount of maoney simply so the amount of copies of win XP home N and Pro N (N means version without WMP) is so small that the profits microsoft has made for it probably didnt even cover microsofts layers COFFEE EXPENSE.
6)The EU doesnt even promote FAIR TRADE IN THEIR COUNRTIES (meridian506 mentioned it above) the spend so much money on their own farms insuring that foriegn farms cant compete with the EU ones. I mean WTF?
7)The case against microsoft was weak and baseless based mainly on illogical links and due to the nature of the EU's comissions and court system regarding them there are certain "issues"!! and that same comment has been heard by many lawyers that deal with EU laws
Look the EU really needs to refresh itself as it is simply stuck in the past, the US gov. case was different and had a hell of a lot more grounding then this CASE.
Bill and Steve should tell the EU to POQ!!!
This is like telling a car company, Say Ford or Volkswagon, to make a car, but don't put your engine in it. Just sell me one without your engine, but put everything else in it.
They won't.
Try buying an iPod without iPod software in it.
The list goes on. MS provides Media Player. Big deal. People need to start focusing on real matters, not just complain about every small detail in the world when their panties get in a knot.
I should also add, you can remove IE from Windows, and you can remove WMP. HOwever, on the default installation they are included.
Why include IE on the default installation? How else can you download new browsers if you don't have one.
Why WMP? If you have no internet connection you can't get another Media Player.
I've worked with many Europeans, and have an English Manager (from england). And I can say with no doubt in my mind that the EU snobs who write the laws need to be taken outside and be beaten with a "stupid stick" to drive the stupidness from them.
The EU is like a speed trap in a sleepy southern town. Running low on cash? Hit up the out-of-state folks for some dough.
GitsLM: "Europeans love competition"
MUAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAAAHAHAHAHAAA, best joke of the day.
Come on, seriously...
The EU can fine maximum of 5% of the companys daily turnover (meaning revenue in the UK) for non-compliance, which means that in microsoft's case EU can't fine more than $5.5 million per day. That still leaves them with 95% of their daily revenues, which really shows how small a fine this is for them.
Wow... In America it's a little different. Over here the government can give only one fine per offence. Which was obviously made so our government cannot leach money from our businesses daily.
And like I said before every service in Windows is a service. Not only the browser but the calculator... Pretty much everything in Windows is a service. That's why the US ordered Windows to make a OS without services. They wanted the OS in two parts, one part just the OS and the other part the services. The services would be installed the way you chose windows updates, pick and choose style. Someone in the government found this im asuming "silly" and dropped the case.
By the EU only saying to remove the MP or the IE is not fair to all the other competing services on Windows. For instance the calculator is a service built into Windows and does have many competition.
Just by that calculator being built into Windows makes people not want to look for another source to buy a calculator. The same goes for the paint program. Windows movie maker is another program taking profits from similar programs.
On XP there is 11 games that compete with other similar games. And many other competeing services. The main one being DirectX 9. Without this service everyone would want to put their implementation of a similar technology on Windows. The reason why is the video game industry is a billion dollar industry, and Windows controls it with DirectX.
Also, most PC hardware was made to work on Windows, thats why the US said that they must make Windows work on less hardware.
Every service on Windows is a monopoly on the market. For the EU to be fair they need to tell Microsoft to make a Windows without any services, because all services on Windows compete with other software.