TiVo tells FCC, cable operators to expect Series 3 boxes "soon"

So it looks like TiVo is finally getting ready to roll out the long-awaited Series 3 DVR Digital Media Recorder, and just in the nick of time, it would seem; from what we can tell, consumers are chomping at the bit to start capturing the growing variety of high definition broadcasts available to them, making HTPCs a more attractive alternative as the days, weeks, and months pass with no HD TiVo. Zatz Not Funny is reporting that the DVR giant recently sent letters to both the FCC and major cable operators stating that Series 3 boxes are already being beta tested around the country and will be available "soon," though no actual release date is given. According to the letters, the CableLabs-certified device will sport two separate UDCP CableCARD slots, and TiVo is concerned about reports that certain cable installers have been refusing to provide beta testers with the necessary support -- no big surprise, as the industry has never shown much love for CableCARDs in the first place. Now, of course, we all want to know how TiVo defines the word "soon" -- previous speculation has centered around a September or early October release -- but we've been covering this beat long enough to know that hazarding a guess is pretty much useless, and that we won't find out any more info until the company is good and ready to reveal its launch plans. [Warning: PDF link]

[Via Zatz Not Funny]

[Argelius @ Jul 19th 2006 10:00AM]

[1] It's about friggin' time!

[2] Does this mean you can only get it if your cable operater offers it, or will I be able to buy one myself?

[mattharvest @ Jul 19th 2006 10:18AM]

Answering Argelius: the box will be available stand-alone, like all Tivo boxes (DirecTivos are a hybrid product). Because cable operators are required to provide CableCARDs on request, you will be able to get one of these boxes and then request cards from your operator. The article's point is that the cable companies are not supportive of the CableCARD system because (a) it costs them money (you pay less, per month, for a card than for a box) and (b) it essentially forces them to help their competitors (i.e. the producers of alternate boxes). The seperate fact that they don't like Tivo is related to the whole DVR system of politics.

[James @ Jul 19th 2006 10:26AM]

Suckit, motorola. As soon as this hits the market, my stupid cable hd dvr is out the door. . . ASSUMING that the price is right - which I doubt.

[mck @ Jul 19th 2006 10:35AM]

I'm so sick of my Comcast box, poor storage, UI, pretty much everything on it sucks.

As long as the price is under $500, I'm sure many will buy it.

[PJE @ Jul 19th 2006 10:46AM]

The only issue for me (other than the cost of the unit), is whether they'll let you transfer a lifetime subscription off a Series 2 (which I doubt) or make you pay for a new subscription...

[Louis @ Jul 19th 2006 10:56AM]

Is the UDCP CableCARD the one that will let you use the other features that your regular cable box offers such as On Demand and/or Pay-Per-View features?

[Bryan T @ Jul 19th 2006 10:57AM]

Mck, you think that's bad, my DirecTivo (Hughes box, almost 2 years old now) shipped with half the features disabled - including the USB ports (which is like that in all DirecTivo's, which would save me a LOT of time when it comes to transfering media.

[r @ Jul 19th 2006 10:59AM]

I'm pretty sure i can guess the right answer to my own question, but just to be safe: will the HD TiVo degrade the picture quality of recorded shows the same way a normal TiVo does? (because the picture quality on a normal TiVo is not as good as what I would see if the cable box went straight to the tv).

[bean @ Jul 19th 2006 11:16AM]

tivo has never let you transfer a lifetime subscription between units. And they have also stopped letting you buy lifetime subscriptions now - so if you get this count on a mo fee.

r - as for the degradation of series 2 tivos - the reason for that is that it has to encode an analog signal into a digital mpeg format. This encoding process looses some of the signal quality, also if you are recording on anything other than the best quality it is even worse.

As for price my guess and the speculation that i have heard is that it is going to be around 1000. If i remember right that was the price of the Direct TV HD Tivo back in the day. I would love to see it priced around 500 if it was i would probably get it over a new Vista MCE, but at 1000 I feel you might as well get a full MCE computer.

[Uchendu Nwachukwu @ Jul 19th 2006 11:20AM]

Louis: No, these TiVo boxes only support CableCARD 1.0, which only supports downstream communication. That means no On-Demand, Program Guide or Pay-Per-View for you.

TiVo will supply its own program guide data as part of your TiVo subscription.

r: No, the HD TiVo will not degrade the signal if you record it. It's all digital, so the signal is simply plopped right on the hard drive, with no analog/digital conversion necessary, and no associated degradation of image quality.

[DigitalEl @ Jul 19th 2006 11:36AM]

I'm on my 3rd TiVo... Two Series 2s and an old Philips Series 1. None of 'em have lasted long enough to make a lifetime subscription worth the money. Pieces of sh!t, the first two were. Number 3 is plugging along, but it's only been a year so far.

Despite craptastic TiVo hardware longevity and the aging interface, it's still worlds better than my parents' DirecTV DVR and the Dish Network DVR my in-laws have.

TiVo is the lesser of evils. I dare anyone to come up with something as cheap and with elegant an ease-of-use factor. Do it and I'm there!

(And no, a media center PC running some version of Windows is NOT the answer).

[Synergy @ Jul 19th 2006 11:39AM]

A straight digital recording should not see any degradation.

I definitely want one to replace my series 2. I hope it comes with a 300GB HD or firewire HD addon capability. I need that space.

[Synergy @ Jul 19th 2006 11:40AM]

Actually what I meant to say is that a straight digital signal to digital recording should not see any degradation.

[Wonderboy @ Jul 19th 2006 11:41AM]

bean... I agree. If it's much more than $500 you're better off getting a HTPC. The benefits of having the setup far outweigh the benefits of a Tivo. Tivo's only selling points against HTPCs are ease of use and the price. If they price this too high, that benefit disappears and your stuck with only the customers who are computer illiterate (a shrinking population).

[wintermute @ Jul 19th 2006 11:44AM]

I'd love to do an MCE computer, but other than over-the-air signals there's no way to get HD broadcast into the computer. If they made a PC cablecard device so you could plug your digital cable direct into the computer, i'd buy one in a heartbeat. AFAIK the only way to get HD DVR functions on either Satellite or Cable is a Tivo or DVR box.

[r @ Jul 19th 2006 11:46AM]

Thanks, that's what i figured. I still don't understand why the recording has to be converted on a Series 2 that is connected to a digital cable box... why isnt that a digitial signal to a digital recording?

[Jason @ Jul 19th 2006 11:48AM]

we're on our 3rd Tivo (Directv Tivo's) in probably 4 years, and I'm fairly certain our lifetime subscription has carried over to all of them. All were replaced under warranty though, so that may have had something to do with it. I hate that Directv cripples the Series2 boxes...

[fumbducker @ Jul 19th 2006 12:07PM]

my series 2 has been aces for 3 years now, and my directv tivo is ok other than the feature cripple and the fact that it tells me i am 579 days past my daily call once a day.. but i will not buy an hdtivo if i have to pay a monthly fee... im waiting for that mac-based hd dvr fucntionality, cmon apple, hook a brother up!

[Racekarl @ Jul 19th 2006 12:14PM]

FYI,

It's "champing at the bit" not "chomping at the bit"

[Jeff Guebert @ Jul 19th 2006 12:35PM]

"No, these TiVo boxes only support CableCARD 1.0, which only supports downstream communication. That means no On-Demand, Program Guide or Pay-Per-View for you."

Unless something has changed since CES (and that's possible, I just haven't heard anything about it), it will either accept two 1.0 cards or a single 2.0 card (capable of both dual tuning and all the upstream communication features).

[Ryan @ Jul 19th 2006 12:43PM]

Firstly does anyone know how to actually become part of the testing program for these boxes?

Secondly cablecard support is coming for HTPC in the form of Windows Vista. They have confirmed you will be able to record via card to your HTPC and even further that you will be able to send HD recording to extender devices (including the X360). Ofcourse we may have to wait another few years before Vista actually comes out :D (more likely though is sometime Q107 unless Ati starts shipping the cable card readers sooner in which case you could use the beta version of vista)

[mike @ Jul 19th 2006 1:06PM]

Racekarl;

Althought "Champing" is the original usage, "Chomping" is fine. Look it up.

Love my DirecTV HD Tivo, and I not about to switch to cable, but I certainly wish they'd do something about the limited, and outdated, feature set.

[Scott @ Jul 19th 2006 1:14PM]

After reading the great comments here, I have even more questions than after reading the article!

If I wanted to use PPV & on-demand, would I need both a STB and a CableCARD? If I had both, could I use the "cable out" connection on the STB to go into the "in" connection on the CARD and record in HiDef on the TiVo?

There are 2 CARD slots, so if I had 2 of them, could I put a splitter on the cable coming into the house, and have one end go into one CARD, and the other go into the STB, and then come out of the STB & go into the other CARD?

Any suggestions as to where I could ask more questions about this stuff (other than my crappy cable company, Time Warner)? Thanks...

[r @ Jul 19th 2006 2:28PM]

If you use a STB, you will not need a cablecard. The cablecard is meant to eliminate the need for a STB, not supplement it. So if you really wanted PPV and On Demand, then you just get an HD STP from TimeWarner and plug it directly into the TiVo.

The series 3 does, however, have a dual tuner. I am unsure, however, if it can record two shows in HD at the same time. (I know the Series 2 which has a dual tuner will only work with one cable box, not two.) If the S3 lets you record simultaneously in HD, then you can have ONE cablecard in the back, and the STP hooked up to the TiVo's video input (through HDMI i'd assume). But in that situation, you'd still only use ONE cablecard.

[r @ Jul 19th 2006 2:29PM]

Keep in mind, that i meant STB each time i said STP (sorry, i had the band stuck in my head).

[Tim Jebara @ Jul 19th 2006 3:10PM]

Hey i have 1 series 1 and 4 series 2 tivos. They haven't given me any problems. They work well. The only problem with the series 3 are the price which could be 1000. Second you will need two cable cards, another expense and on top of that you will pay the Tivo Monthly Service Fee. Add up the costs and it will be close if not equal to the regular cable dvrs. They charge you for the box and then the service fee.

[Joe @ Jul 19th 2006 3:54PM]

Please don't hold your breath, I don't think TiVo can afford any liability suits.

Guys, this thing will undoubtedly go over like a lead baloon (and this, from a TiVo fan). The issue isn't TiVo, it is CableCard. The instant the evil cable co's figure out that CableCard would undercut their STB rental fees and make people actually have to CALL THEM to order PPV and premium content, did they start to kill it. The final blow that caused the acceleration of this vicious murder was when they realized they could sell advertisment space on their own EPG, and would lose that if the user actually had a CHOICE in STB and EPG. Now there's some nice fair market competition, eh?

[bean @ Jul 19th 2006 3:55PM]

wintermute - The new vista MCE pc's will be cablecard compliant and there has been a bunch of news stories about how microsoft has entered a deal to ensure the addition of cablecards to their new media centers. The only downside is that it sounds like it will only be available on OEM machines and not available to DIY.

As far as tivo v. MCE I have both and there are a lot of things that MCE does better than Tivo - for example the fact access to your music and photos is 100% better on an MCE, also you have access to movies and if you have a big enough HD you can rip dvds right into your movie collection. As far as the DVR comparasion I think that Tivo does take some of the work out of it and there are some added hassels with MCE but they are pretty minor. I think that when the vista media centers start coming out they are going to do pretty well - I plan on getting one.

PS - plus you never have to pay a mo subscription fee for a MCE :).

[Scott @ Jul 19th 2006 4:00PM]

Thanks, r.

It looks like the two big questions are whether the CableCARD supports PPV & OnDemand, and will the S3 be able to simultaneously record two HD programs. However, Tim Jebara may be correct with regard to the overall cost of a cable sub + a TiVo sub + a TiVo S3 box. Maybe I'll just wait to see how much a Vista HTPC will be...

[Bogey @ Jul 19th 2006 4:04PM]

Somewhat unrelated to the article... but I have a CableCard question.

Is the cable company (in my case ComCast) REQUIRED to give you a CableCard if you ask? Can they force you to have a STB elsewhere (or at least pay for one). Even though my TV only accepts a 1.0 CC, I'd love to ditch the STB completely. I don't use PPV or OnDemand.

Answers appreciated.

[Ed @ Jul 19th 2006 4:32PM]

Bogey:

Yes, they are REQUIRED to give you a CableCARD when you ask, but my Comcast area does some pretty shady things to discourage it.

1. They price the cable card the same as a Digital box: $6.95

2. They have separate techs to install CableCARDS -- and these techs take over 1 month to schedule.

Really shady practices, IMHO.

[waikikiTed @ Jul 19th 2006 4:43PM]

WINTERMUTE: look for a PCI TV card supporting HD digital cable. Haupage makes one. If you take your "basic" analog cable and plug it into the card (or even straight into your TV if it has a built in HD tuner) then you can get your HD channels as well as some other interesting stuff off the unencrypted line without need for a cable card or specific HD subscription. Try it on a TV if you have one. Built In-Digital HD Tuner required.

[waikikiTed @ Jul 19th 2006 4:45PM]

Also..... no one has mentioned Satellite. I assume that this will/should work with Dish Network as well? Just wondering if it accepts a HDMI input to pass digital signal from STB.

I really dig my Dish VIP622 box but have a soft spot and miss my good ol Tivo interface.

[fred montgomery @ Jul 19th 2006 6:08PM]

I saw on the July 18 edition of Engadget.com an article stating the stand alone TiVo series 3 DMR is supposed to debut in the September/October time frame. As a 5-year subscriber of Directv and the Directv/TiVo Series 2 DVR, I DEMAND Directv allow, produce AND SUPPORT a Directv/TiVo Series 3 DMR. In addition,the hybrid DMR needs to have the following added to it:

1. 500 gb hard drive that records 6 sd/hd streams @ the same time while watching a seventh prerecorded stream.

2. Directv/TiVo customers get ALL updates the stand alone models get. I want the 7.31 tivo software...NOW!!!

3. Interactive services

4. 1 touch recording

5. 30/60/90 skip back and forth

6. A new mosiac style epg w/ multi pip

7. Removal of all vestiges of DRM and Macrovision. Make the product open source. The reason I will NEVER buy the Directv+ is due to the limits on the product, the crappy software and the strong DRM.

8. 3sd/3hd tuners to record and store free VOD on a seperate 500 gb hd

As a consumer,I am already tired of that buggy pos called the Directv+ dvr. This may be wishful thinking, but, that crappy product should be scrapped asap.

[Bryan @ Jul 19th 2006 6:53PM]

Cablevision has Cable Card support but I'm not sure if you need to ask for a cable card because mine came with their DVR.

[Scott @ Jul 19th 2006 7:35PM]

The S3 will support CableCARD 1.0, which will *not* work with video-on-demand (including Howard TV, and the free VoD channels), pay-per-view, and other 2-way services some cable companies currently offer, such as what I have with Time Warner:

- Pay your bill through the set-top box
- "Quick access menu" (Nav2 services), which give you a modified picture-in-picture, showing local/regional/national weather, headlines, local movie listings, movie trailers, etc.
- "Voting" via remote control

None of those services would be available through the S3, so if you wanted any of them, you'd still need a set-top box.

CableCARD 2.0 is in the final stages of ratification, but is not "final." Even when it becomes "final," it will still take quite a while before it's available in consumer devices, and by that time, we'll be hearing more about "Downloadable Conditional Access System" (DCAS), which is more advantageous for cable companies, so it'll probably render CableCARD obsolete altogether...

CC2 is backward-compatible, but that only means it will *work* in a CC1 slot--but it would function as a CC1, with its limitations. For a device like the S3 to be able to use a CC2 to its fullest potential, it needs hardware upgrades & certification, so you couldn't just plug a CC2 into the S3 and have it fully enabled.

Unfortunately, there's more bad news... Some cable companies--particularly Time Warner, are beginning to roll out something called Switched Digital Video (SDV), which, as I understand it, functions similarly to VoD, and because of that, any stream sent via SDV would not be picked up by CC1, so it would not be accessible with the S3. Since the objective of SDV is to save bandwidth, some HD channels are sent this way, so again, the S3 couldn't access it.

I'm sure the S3 will be great for some, but the limitations & costs make it less and less attractive to me. Unfortunately, it looks like I'm still stuck with crappy Time Warner...

[Diane McCorkle @ Jul 19th 2006 7:49PM]

The day can't come soon enough.. that comcast DVR has darkened the living room for too long. The motoDVR has got to be one of the most user unfriendly devices I have ever seen, especially with it's buggy operation and gobs of features that "are not available with your service provider"

I'm at the point of missing my tivo so much that I've already set a spending limit of $1000 for Series 3 box with Lifetime if they hit that point.

For those saying "but lifetime is gone!" Tivo has very carefully said that new lifetime subscriptions are no longer available for Series II devices, but has never said "..and they won't be offered for Series 3"

I'll bet they're going to offer Lifetime on Series 3 for some time, and especially to previous owners, it's the quickest way to get a massive userbase.

also bet on seeing a "non-lifetime" "tivo service lite" re: certain prior manufacturers that is provided with devices.

[Fugg @ Jul 21st 2006 1:10PM]

To all of those reading the comments here regarding the support or lack of support for the cablecard2 spec in the upcoming tivo series3 dvr:

Don't believe everything you read.;)

There are many apparent experts on this box all over the internet, which is especially interesting considering they have never used one and some have never even seen one. I’m sure they all have unimpeachable sources that could never be wrong, but there IS one thing that is certain.

When it's released, you will know for sure.

And some will be very surprised. Some even pleasantly.
:)

[Scott @ Jul 21st 2006 6:30PM]

Hey there, Fugg.

Of course it's all speculation... No one knows for sure except those who know, and they're not telling. However, an educated guess, based on currently-available information and precedent, is that it seems HIGHLY unlikely that all the planets will align in TiVo's favor, and CableCARD 2 will be ready for consumer devices prior to the release of the S3.

What we know for sure is that the only thing finalized about CableCARD 2 are the specs, and they were only just recently finalized. What that tells us is that it's still a long ways away from being produced & implemented. If TiVo plans on releasing the S3 within, say, the next 6 months, it's a pretty safe bet it will precede the release of CableCARD 2, which means the S3 *will not* be able to fully utilize all the functions of CC2, period.

We know that CC2 will be backward-compatible, but when used in a CC1 device, it will only work as a CC1. Therefore, if the S3 is released prior to the CC2, it will have all the limitations outlined in one of my above posts.

Information about CC1, CC2, DCAS, and SDV is available on dozens of credible sites.

One other thing: no one hopes I'm wrong about this more than I! :o)

[Bill Tello @ Jul 22nd 2006 9:01AM]

I really wish a major publisher would take up the issue of the TIVO series 3 potentially not being able to record from channels which the cable provider makes available using switched digital video (SDV). I know that Time-Warner Cable is testing the SDV technology in various markets right now. I know that TIVO has filed with the FCC regarding this issue - but I realy think the whole thing needs to be majorly publicized in order to force TIVO, cable providers and the FCC to work together.