EU investigating HD DVD, Blu-ray licensing terms

Both high definition optical disc formats have already seen their share of setbacks in the form of delays and hardware problems, and now they may be facing some nasty anti-trust allegations pending the results of a recently-launched EU probe. Having already flexed its authoritative muscle against Microsoft, the European Commission has now moved on to investigating the terms that the major backers of Blu-ray and HD DVD are exerting upon their respective licensees. Since the investigation is still "unofficial" at this point, the Commission refused to specify the particular companies being probed, although Sony publicly confirmed that it has received one of the letters in question and that it's cooperating with regulators. If these same regulators decide that nothing fishy is going on, then the matter will be dropped; but if they're displeased with the responses they get, a full anti-trust probe is likely. Best case scenario: only one of the camps ends up being subjected to further scrutiny, leaving the other as clear-cut victor in the format war and saving us all the hassle of choosing sides.

[ZAMBONO @ Jul 28th 2006 1:20PM]

As far as I am concerned the battle has already been won, atleast with my generation, which is in between X and Y. Blu-ray will be a clear winner due to proper marketing and correct delivery, not to mention that I have yet to see an HD-DVD movie and I have seen plenty of blu-ray ones on shelves. Blu-ray also has the backing from my design firm for data usage do to its larger capacity and soon to come quicker burning times. HD-DVD is falling behind, and soon will be forgotten by the people.

[Alberto Torres @ Jul 28th 2006 2:01PM]

Not only that Zambono, Blu-Ray has heighten security which the EU will like, no doubt.

[icemorebutts @ Jul 28th 2006 2:07PM]

Really? I haven't seen any Blu-Ray disks or players anywhere. At $1000 a pop I'm not to interested in them, coupled with the fact that they still use MPEG2 makes me sick. Both formats have yet to go anywhere but that will soon change with the launch of the 360 add on and the PS3. My mony is on HD-DVD, but if you asked me which was going to win before E3 I would have said Blu-Ray, but now no way that'll happen.

[Alberto Torres @ Jul 28th 2006 2:08PM]

Blu-ray will come out victorious because of it's heightened security measures which will surely please the EU. =D

[MattUK @ Jul 28th 2006 2:15PM]

The heightened secutiry measures will more likley please the big American studios and would run into trouble within the EU, and the European Parliment in particular.

It good see them at least beig proactive, and not wait until it had been on the market for a couple of years.

[David @ Jul 28th 2006 2:21PM]

All the big box stores I've visited have piles of Blu-ray players collecting dust. HD-DVD players, on the other hand, sell out as soon as they bring them in.

[Jeff @ Jul 28th 2006 2:23PM]

"Best case scenario: only one of the camps ends up being subjected to further scrutiny, leaving the other as clear-cut victor in the format war and saving us all the hassle of choosing sides."

Wouldn't really make sense that only one side gets scrutinized. It's an anti-trust probe about licensing. There's really only one possible reason for that, which is the terms that dictate that licensees can't produce dual-format players.

Any other licensing issue I can think of wouldn't fall under "anti-trust". It has to be about trying to monopolize the market. In terms of licensees, there aren't many issues where that applies.

[David @ Jul 28th 2006 2:28PM]

All the big box stores I've been to have piles of Blu-ray players collecting dust on the shelves. HD-DVD players, however, sell out as soon as they're made available.

Back to the topic at hand, Blu-ray could be in trouble if the rumours about exclusive licencing are true. According to several sources in the industry, Blu-ray licencees are forbidden from producing HD-DVD parts. LG and Samsung have both discussed combo devices but have said that the problem is licencing rather than any technical limitation.

I'd be curious to know if there is a similar clause for HD-DVD licencees.

[3dc @ Jul 28th 2006 2:40PM]

I'm glad to see both formats are being investigated there needs to be someone else involved that controls these two children.

I think BR is at an uphill battle right now and not sure its going to reach the top. Too many verifiable facts plague the BR. Due to the manufacturing of the disc the data sector is somewhere between .02 -.04mm from the surface. Basically this means the discs are extremely delicate. A fingerprint could easily ruin the surface enough to not read it, but the real problem would come in when you go to clean it off. With the thickness of the protective layer BR disc has any fine scratch could spell doom for the disc.

Also Blue lasers are much more expensive to produce thus the high price for the hardware, sure over time this will go down but don't expect it anytime soon.

BR as can be verified has opted to use MPEG2 codec and trying to use this codec and produce 1080dpi, well thats why they have to have such a hugh amount of space on the disc. Currently you can not even buy anything larger than its 25Gb single layer discs. BR is also reluctant to adopt the VC1 Codec natively used in HD-DVD. In most instances any reveiew I have read or heard regarding watching the two the HD usually wins the movie viewing for sharper images.

Disk size is also plaged, currently you caon only get a single layer BDR at 25Gb, but you can get a Dual layer HD-DVD at 30Gb, this would make it more storage capacity at this time. This will change if BDR disc can find a way to protect the surface better without increasing production cost.

As for Zambono's comment appearently you don't shop often for what is out there the movie "Firewall" for instance is sold currently in the old DVD format on one side and the HD-DVD format on the other. There are many other titles being sold like this as well. Just because a company has enough money to convince you with bold and inflated lies doesn't mean it the best do so more research.

The battle is not over but right now Bluray ain't winnin'!

[hehehhehe @ Jul 28th 2006 3:08PM]

Oh great, this is turning into another BR vs HD-DVD discussion even though the news has nothing to do with the comparison.

The EU is just looking to get a cut. The ruling against Microsoft was basically a tax. They haven't investigated Apple for bundling all their software (quicktime) have they?

[hehehhehe @ Jul 28th 2006 3:13PM]

Oh great, this is turning into another BR vs HD-DVD discussion even though the news has nothing to do with the comparison.

The EU is just looking to get a cut. The ruling against Microsoft was basically a tax. They haven't investigated Apple for bundling all their software (quicktime) have they?

[Nate @ Jul 28th 2006 3:35PM]

This news is late...and wrong. It was posted on www.cedaily.blogspot.com yesterday, including the correct point that this is NOT the start of an official investigation, but rather an informal inquiry.

[Nate @ Jul 28th 2006 3:41PM]

Here's the link...
Consumer Electronics Daily News
http://cedaily.blogspot.com/2006/07/eu-antitrust-commission-investigating.html

[Dave @ Jul 28th 2006 4:21PM]

I guess crappy HD DVD will have problems now :)
Long live Blu-Ray :D

[Dave @ Jul 28th 2006 4:24PM]

I think HD DVD have lost this battle.
I also will stand on Bly-Ray side as the most companys done so...

[hmurchison @ Jul 28th 2006 4:43PM]

Clearly we're infested with Blu-Ray idiots.

People the topic is the EU investigation not your insance and logic free prattle about who's going to win.

If "either" platforms licensing contains verbiage prohibiting the inclusion of the competitors technology then indeed that is grounds for an inquiry on up to an investigation.

Companies are allowed to protect their IP and innovate their products but when you start codifying demands in your licensing that stipulate what vendors can do that runs into gray areas IMO.

The EU isn't trying to tax anyone they're simply doing what the DOJ (or should I say Dept of Injustice) should be doing. Allowing consumers equal access to technology.

[C @ Jul 28th 2006 5:31PM]

The EU does not know what they are doing. They shouldnt have say in anything. The antitrust law was created mainly for energy companies.I think Blu-ray will win in my opinion. Only because you can hold more space on this format.

Blu-ray can hold 200 GB maximum compaired to HD DVD's 45 GB maximum.You could put three HD DVDs on one BD. Or 200 HD films in divx format!

[Tomas @ Jul 28th 2006 5:47PM]

The EU can go pound sand. Like they have nothing better to be investigating? Watch the EU crumble under the weight of its bureaucracy. It's why I left 20 years ago.

[Oakley @ Jul 28th 2006 6:29PM]

It's the EU's way of adding a tax just as "hehehehehe" said.
I am in the industry and have a pile of BD media on my desk. I am yet to put the uncompressed audio to the test, but when you have the right gear the picture is spectacular no question. (1920 x 1080P capable)
HD-DVD is the current DVD format maxed out so it’s easy to sell to manufactures.
Blu-ray is a different angle and anything that is different generally costs a little more (in the beginning)
“3DC” mentions that HD-DVD has superior storage! Dude a single layer in HD-DVD is 15Gb, and a single on BD is 25Gb! Technically layer for layer BD can match HD which means no matter how you cut it, BD has more.

BD also has a max bitrate of 40Mbps compared to HD 28Mbps! Being that this may be the last physical format before everything becomes streamed/beamed or what ever… wouldn’t you want room to move?

Lastly “hehehehehe” sorry you are right this has turned into a BD V’s HD-DVD blog yet again. While not the perfect medium you must admit of the two on offer to the main stream, BD has it all over HD. I can tell you as an insider that HD-DVD doesn’t have a leg to stand on, particularly when you look at who is backing it and how much international market share they have. I just hope that the EU don’t find some obscure left wing reason to come down on BD because some guy over at Toshiba slipped a note into the envelope as part of their desperate “marketing” campaign to convince the public they are still in it.
)

[123 @ Jul 28th 2006 7:03PM]

@3dc

"Due to the manufacturing of the disc the data sector is somewhere between .02 -.04mm from the surface. Basically this means the discs are extremely delicate."

No, HDDVDs are much more delicate than Blu-Ray discs because of the protective layer called Durabis which can withstand scratching it with a screwdriver.

"Disk size is also plaged, currently you caon only get a single layer BDR at 25Gb, but you can get a Dual layer HD-DVD at 30Gb, this would make it more storage capacity at this time."

You obviously don't know what you're talking about because you can't buy any recordable HDDVDs at all at the moment. Blu-Ray has had 25GB BD-R and BD-RE discs out for months, with 50GB discs later this year. There is not one HDDVD PC recorder announced yet.

[hmurchison @ Jul 29th 2006 1:35AM]

if you guys want to go there.

Oakely the maximum user rate for HD DVD is 36Mbps. Blu-Ray is 54Mbps. This really isn't an issue for video but rather how many audio channels you can mux in.

HD DVD has tested 45GB discs but they are just as rare as the 50GB DL ROM Blu-Ray discs. Despite only Toshiba and RCA making HD DVD it's doing well and among the top selling DVD player at Amazon. The quality of the movies available are a cut above what's shipping on Blu-Ray.

123 you shouldn't be telling others they don't know what they're talking about when your post contains factual errors. Durabis "may" be used as a protective coating seeing as how the protection layer on Blu-Ray is %600 thinner than HD DVD however studios do not have to use Durabis they have other options like thin film and spincoats. There is no guarantee you'll get Durabis is the point.

Toshiba will have PC recorders announced with their UK launch in a September timeframe.

[shay @ Jul 29th 2006 2:25AM]

In response to icymorebutt's comments, you should read up on the facts before running your mouth. The idea of MPEG-2 making you sick is too bad, cause here are the facts: Blu-ray discs support encoding in up to 24-bit/192kHz for up to six channels, or up to eight channels of up to 24-bit/96kHz encoding. For reference, even new big-budget Hollywood films are mastered in only 24-bit/48kHz, with 16-bit/48kHz being common for ordinary films.

End result: Higher quality uncompressed audio, soon to be the de-facto in the DVD world.

[Ihar `Philips` Filipau @ Jul 29th 2006 6:26AM]

> with 16-bit/48kHz being common for ordinary films

you are an idiot.

32bit@192kHz is more or less standard for digital mastering. thou most still use analog mastering for it doesn't have that finiteness problem of digital media.

try to mix content of two/three/four CDs to understand why. probably then you would also understand why DJs are still using vinil and analogue mixing.

On topic. First I saw the headline, I thought EC is investigating the exclusive licensing terms of the groups. I think all recall that the licensing terms at moment are incompatible making it impossible to produce player supporting both formats. I'm sure that EC is investigating the mater after hardware manufacturers' complain. They are to loose most by the format war. EC may not start investigations without reason.

[grey eminence @ Jul 31st 2006 9:27AM]

The Blu-ray WORM Disc format was developed by the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA), a group of leading consumer electronics, personal computer and media manufacturers, with more than 170 member companies from all over the world. The Board of Directors currently consists of:

Apple Computer, Inc.
Dell Inc.
Hewlett Packard Company
Hitachi, Ltd.
LG Electronics Inc.
Matsu****a Electric Industrial Co., Ltd.
Mitsubishi Electric Corporation
Pioneer Corporation
Royal Philips Electronics
Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.
Sharp Corporation
Sony Corporation
TDK Corporation
Thomson Multimedia
Twentieth Century Fox
Walt Disney Pictures
Warner Bros. Entertainment.

This team of profiteers has done everything to prevent development of other storage technologies and to protect their markets thru collusion and price fixing.

I think that's what the EU is looking at.

[Franssu @ Jul 31st 2006 5:35PM]

To people telling Blu-Ray is superior, you clearly didn't see any demo. Even the Blu-Ray demo disc by Samsung is absolutely awful (compression artifacts everywhere). Sure 1080p is looking good on paper but if it's to have macroblocks everywhere and apalling temporal artifacts then thank you but no thank you.

BR has 2 problems for the moment. They are unable to produce dual-layer discs (so they are limited to 25GB right now, compared to the 30GB HD-DVDs) and they stuck with that old MPEG2 format who just doesn't cut it for 1080p (and especially not with only 25GB for a whole movie). VC-1 and H.264 are light years ahead in terms of image quality, while being much less demanding in terms of space,

Clearly Sony thought it could win the war just with their good name, forgetting that they lost each and every format war they've been in in the past.

[Ashwarya Gupta @ Nov 10th 2006 10:45PM]

Hi

Can someone clarify the kind of licensing agreement that is done by Sony with the other players in the blu-ray camp.

I wanted to know the % share of the total amount that Sony would be getting out of this licensing, and what are the shares of other players involved in this arrangement.

Thanks.