Time Warner does / doesn't support CableCARD TiVos

Since we ran that last post about Time Warner Cable (disclaimer: TWC is owned by Time Warner, our parent company's parent company's parent company) giving peeps hell about running their TiVo Series 3 boxes with operator-issued CableCARDs, we've seen the cable company subjected to inscrutably painful amounts of ire the likes of which TWC isn't even accustomed to hearing from the Engadget Podcast. But now things are just getting confusing and muddled. All of a sudden TiVo Community user BillyT2002 got a call back from a Time Warner direct manager who laid the FUD to rest by letting him know that the TiVo S3 will definitely work perfectly and be supported by and on TWC's network with TWC's CableCARDs, and that the CSRs who made the previous statements to the contrary were completely misinformed. Ok, sweet. Except for the fact that mere minutes before we were sent this tip, a gent by the name of Phil forwarded us an email from TWC in LA / San Fernando Valley that stated the following: "We do offer Cable Card [sic] technology, however, we will not install Cable Cards onto equipment aside from the television itself. We will not support any 3rd party equipment devices such as Tivo." (We've published it in full after the break.) Oook. So what's it going to be, guys? We've got some freaking gear to buy already -- it is 2006, after all. And people wonder why CableCARD hasn't taken off, and why there's little or no consumer confidence in its adoption.

[Thanks, Ken & Phil]

Phil's emailed response:

------ Forwarded Message
From: "Cust.Ops"
Reply-To: "Cust.Ops"
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 18:45:36 -0700
To:
Subject: Re: FEEDBACK_Customer_Service (KMM1035923VXXXXXXXX)

Hello

Thank you for your inquiry. We do offer Cable Card technology, however, we will not install Cable Cards onto equipment aside from the television itself.

We will not support any 3rd party equipment devices such as Tivo.

If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us via our Live Online Help. Our Live Online Help Representatives are available Monday through Friday between 9 AM to 7 PM at: http://www.TimeWarnerLA.com/chat/ .

Time Warner Cable
(888)TW-CABLE

Now you can pay your bill online or with your digital remote! Just visit http://www.TimeWarnerLA.com/PayXpress or tune to channel 1 and select
"Interact."

[chris @ Jul 28th 2006 8:57AM]

I think it's pretty clear that the CEO's response in the TiVoCommunity trumps some lame customer service drone who's just reading a script.

[Pip @ Jul 28th 2006 9:21AM]

I would assume the TWC lawyers have gotten word to the higher ups that they have to legally support all devices with a CabeCard and word just hasn't gotten down to the peons yet.

[Noone Important @ Jul 28th 2006 9:38AM]

So just schedule the install for a tv and when the guy gets there, lead him to the DVR. If he refuses, pull out a printed copy of the law with highlighted paragraphs and a 20$ bill and hand it to him. Problem solved! What tech is going to disobey the law and get his company in a lot of trouble when there is a 20$ bill attached.

[Thoth @ Jul 28th 2006 9:48AM]

Maybe there is some confusion here. When they say "we don't offer support..." it could be meaning that they won't help you when it breaks. You have to call the device manufacturer for that. All the cable companies are required by law to do is ensure that the card they provide works with the device you own. That is as far as their responsibility goes, no? If you have a VCR that suddently stops working while you are recording the latest American Idol, are you going to call the cable company about it? I know the VCR scenario isn't the most apt, but it will do for now. What say you all?

[Eric J @ Jul 28th 2006 9:48AM]

I would read the e-mail as saying that they wont' do an install or perform customer service on third-party devices. So you pick up the cable card at your local TWC office, install it yourself (big deal) and if there's a problem, you get slightly less help than you would for a TWC cable box.

[jjd @ Jul 28th 2006 9:54AM]

This may not be an option for everyone, but couldn't you work around this by having the cable guy come install the cablecard in your TV and when he leaves, take it out and put it in your tivo?

Or is the cablecard configured to only be paired with one particular device?

--Jim--

[Korey @ Jul 28th 2006 10:02AM]

Eric, the only problem is that they will not let you install the cable card yourself. It can't be that hard to install the card and set a few parameters. It's pretty much like the whole TWC HD-DVR fiasco. You can't install those yourself either. Apparently, A number of bone head customers thought they could get an HD picture on their SD set.

[n2 @ Jul 28th 2006 10:21AM]

My cable company doesn't even offer cable cards. And I think the reason is simple. They want you to have their box, so you can buy movies on demand. We must have something like 30 on demand channels, 5 of which allow you to have a movie for 24 hrs, pause, rewind, etc.

[Ray @ Jul 28th 2006 10:33AM]

I don't know where you guys live but we've always been able to pick up the HD-DVR's from our local TWC office and install them ourselves.

[TurboFool @ Jul 28th 2006 10:34AM]

They also will not install your cable modem to your own wireless router and configure it. This is nothing new for them. I doubt they really won't simply give you the cable cards and let you install them yourself. Most allow self-installation of digital cable boxes and their own DVRs, so there should be no difference here. They provide no support for it once it's installed, but it still works.

I think this whole thing is out of hand and is being taken too literally overall. It's far from unusual for a company like this not to officially support a device like this, but it's standard for it to work, anyway.

[TurboFool @ Jul 28th 2006 10:37AM]

I just noticed the comment above me mentioned not being allowed to install the HD-DVR. I went in a few weeks ago and traded my Explorer 8000 for an Explorer 8300HD (I still have SD, but I wanted more space), brought it home, and installed it myself. No trouble from Time Warner.

[Jeff @ Jul 28th 2006 10:42AM]

The FCC mandates that if you want a CableCard, you get a CableCard. It doesn't matter what you put it in.

If TWC's customer service reps aren't aware of this, then they just need to be made aware of it, one way or another. And if they resist, then they need to be made aware of it as they collect their unemployment checks.

But the bottom line is at the end of the day, you will get your CableCard if you want one.

[coopertwist @ Jul 28th 2006 11:52AM]

I think they just mean they will not support the unit if something goes wrong (does not record because hbo has put retractions on copy never or audio is not in not heard but is ok on other TVs). I'm its not as an 80 year old grandmother is going to buy this thing and have no clue how to set it up, if you have one you know a little about the cable card and how it works not the cable system. I have RCN and they had no really had not clue even how to get it to work on the TV they just wrote the serial # down on the work order ask me to put it in the TV (which i am glad so he did not put it in and jam it wrong way in) waited for the screen to give the host and data id to key in on his handheld and it was over...did the same for my Sony DVR with cable card.

[Tim Dorr @ Jul 28th 2006 11:52AM]

Basically, it boils down to semantics.

We will not support...
is much differerent than
We will not provide...

They have to provide the CableCards, they just want to be clear that they're not going to provide technical support for them if you're throwing them into just any device. For all they know, your Tivo could destroy the CableCard, but that wouldn't be TWC's fault if it broke. That's all they're trying to make clear. CableCards will be given out, but they won't support them in just any old device (Toasters are not a supported, for example).

[trout-101 @ Jul 28th 2006 12:19PM]

Looks like classic large corporate miscommunications, diferrent divisions/groups sending mixed signals.

If I understand TimeWarner cable is realy an amalgam of regional cable companies they bought over the years.

My guess is that we won't realy know until someone calls up with something other that a TV.

I assume that they will not support any 3rd party device beyond basic installation. Are they gonna trouble shoot a TV beyond verifying that the cable card is ok?

[andy @ Jul 28th 2006 12:20PM]

The cable industry has done everything in their power to make using a cablecard near impossible for the consumer to obtain. They have no interest in supporting it or the multi-stream version that is in development. This eats into their revenue and by giving conflicting messages to the public and CSRs it further confuses the situation and increases the likelihood that a consumer will just cave in and get a set top box. trhe Tivo Series 3 is a dangerous device for the cable companies because it is the first device that consumers might actually buy and adopt. Say goodbye to the monthly box rental revenue, and PPV, and VOD, and interactive revenues. Tivo should rush this thing out the door as fast as possible. I'm actually surprised that it got cablelabs approval. No one in the industry wants to see consumers embrace cablecard. No one. The good news is that if this does take off it will force the multi-stream card development, and/or the opencable development that will create a more interactive, 2-way interface between the cable technology and end user devices.

Props to Engadget for posting this somewhat hot topic story. The guys in TWC have a lot of control and aren't afraid to throw it around inside time warner when an affiliated company steps on their turf. Ever wonder why AOL took so long to launch a VoIP product; or why TWC customers didn't get access to AOL content for free?

[mikey @ Jul 28th 2006 12:31PM]

Hopefully TWC and the rest of the cable industry gets a grip. The Tivo Series3 is going to be just the start of the run on CableCards. Next year PC OEMs are going to start churning out CableCard ready Vista PCs with Vista Media Center and this is really going to be a hot button topic with the cable companies. Once Vista CableCard PCs hit the streets things will really heat up. The cable companies better accept the fact that they need to turn out a competitive DVR product not just forcefeed the masses with their junk.

[Phil K @ Jul 28th 2006 12:35PM]

Phil here -- I'm the guy in Los Angeles who received the "no" from Customer Service. I'm pretty sure they were'nt playing games with semantics.

The exact question I asked them was "Will you be supporting CableCard installation in the new Series 3 TiVo which is about to come out? This is a CableLabs certified device and should fall under the FCC mandate for CableCard support."

Their reply, "...we will not install Cable Cards onto equipment aside from the television itself. We will not support any 3rd party equipment devices such as Tivo."

This says to me that they are going to give us a hard time. My purpose in getting the word out there was to get a groundswell of attention in advance of the Series 3 launch, so Time Warner can rethink their position and set a company-wide standard of acceptance.

This is what we have to put up with when we have monopolies.

[bluemonq @ Jul 28th 2006 1:44PM]

jjd - indeed, there is a little mating dance between the card and the device.

Question: I was under the impression that CableCARD 2.0 wasn't ready to be fully implemented yet, and that Series 3 would be shipping with CC1.0 + a few other things? So PPV and anything else requiring bidirectional communication wouldn't work?

[John Laur @ Jul 28th 2006 2:00PM]

Wow; the device isn't even out yet! No CSR is even going to know about it -- they are going to give you a very conservative response.

The law says they have to support it, so come hell or high water, if you buy one you *will* get support for it, plain and simple. When TiVo actually announces a date and there is final hardware it will become more of an issue for cable companies to deal with getting the CSR's and installers, etc. informed about the new hardware, but until then, I don't know why people were expecting more than what they're getting in responses ...

[Pip @ Jul 28th 2006 2:54PM]

He just posted why. So we dont have these "issues" when it is out. Tivo wants a smooth rollout as they take over the DVR market again.

The last thing I want to hear when I come home from Best Buy with my Tivo3 is "Sorry, we aren't giving you a Cablecard for that device".

Cable companies need to be reminded of the law prior to release so they dont spread false information to people who dont know any better for when it is actually on the shelves.

[Philip Spicer @ Jul 28th 2006 5:26PM]

This same type of thing happened when Sony released their CableCard ready HD DVR a year and a half ago (DHG-HDD250 or HDD500). Some customers were told they could not get a card for anything but a TV.

Last time I checked, Cox here in Tulsa, Oklahoma would not let you self install a CableCard. Instead they must roll a truck and charge you $30 or $50 (can't remember for sure). But they will let you self install their Motorola DVRs.

[Mike @ Jul 28th 2006 6:21PM]

I actually asked posted a related question to Diana at TWC in Columbia SC where they have implemented Switched Digital Video technology which threatens to make cable cards obsolete altgether.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...5&&#post7956765

[Mike @ Jul 28th 2006 6:34PM]

I actually asked posted a related question to Diana at TWC in Columbia SC where they have implemented Switched Digital Video technology which threatens to make cable cards obsolete altgether.

Whether it's SDV or simply refusing to provide them atogether, it is clear that Time Warner Cable does not want to support cable card.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...5&&#post7956765

[Wry Cooter @ Jul 28th 2006 7:39PM]

Nothing they have said is that contradictory.

The key word in all of the communications thus far is "support".

They will not "support". They will not "install".

This does not mean

- They will keep it from working
_ That it will not work

Similarly, they do not "support" your VCR. That is up to you to figure out.
What, you can't set the timer on your VCR? Don't call Us.

Traditionally, cable companies only support the equipment they supply to the customer, and their staff (you probably know how bright the staff is) is only up to snuff, only trained to 'support', that standard equipment.

[Bill Tello @ Jul 28th 2006 8:44PM]

I am BillyT2002 on tivocommunity.com.

Let me add some context to my communication with Time-Warner yesterday (2006-07-27):

You can view the original e-mail which I sent to Time Warner at:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4231445&&#post4231445

You can view the post I made within the same thread regarding the call back which I received from a high-level Time-Warner executive at:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4232889&&#post4232889

______________________________________________

Just the fact that a high-level and technically knowledgeable TWC executive bothered to take the time out of his day to contact me back (when I'm not even a customer and I'm not even yet in TWC territory, though I will be very soon when they take over the local Adelphia outlet) speaks volumes to me. I was pessimistic when I sent the original e-mail and now I will definitely be buying a TIVO series 3 and leaving DirecTV for TWC as soon as the TIVO S3 is available and as soon as TWC takes control of my area.

I hope this post helps to clarify the situation.

[Bill Tello @ Jul 28th 2006 8:53PM]

I also agree with the point that a cable company saying they will not support the use of a cable card in a third party devices is a far cry different than if they are saying they will not provide the cablecards at all for a third party device.

They are just covering their back side. What they are saying is we'll give you the cablecard(s), but if anything goes wrong short of maybe sending a truck out to install a new one, we're not going to help you troubleshoot any problem(s).

Adelphia has been telling me this regarding my Linksys router for years.