Steorn: inventors of infinite energy, destroyers of laws of thermodynamics?

We're sure most of you are well aware of the first law of thermodynamics, which states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, and the second law, which states that putting energy into a system will always result in a loss in potential output -- these are the reasons why everybody buys gas, why we pay for electricity, and in many ways why the world economy is shaped the way it is. Which is why whenever someone comes along and says they've developed a technology that undermines hundreds of years of scientific study with the ability to create boundless amounts of free energy with no emissions, well, you have to imagine we'd cry snake oil -- but it would seem Steorn, claimers of such an absurdity, has already launched a PR campaign to circumvent naysayers such as ourselves. In fact, the Irish tech company issued an ad in The Economist announcing a challenge to 12 of the worlds' finest scientists -- to be chosen by them (hey, is Hwang Woo-suk available?) -- to step forward and disprove their infinite clean energy technology. And once their technology isn't disproved -- and they obviously believe that it won't be disproved -- they'll begin licensing it to the world's energy companies (and charitably freely licensing it for rural water purification and electricity generation). If it's the real deal then after all the congratulations are all over and we've reevaluated the fundamental underpinnings of physics as we know it, perhaps all humanity's energy ailments are finally going to come to a close. But the chances it could be a large PR hoax toying with our desperate need to revamp our global energy situation? Well, let's just hope Steorn proves us all wrong and changes science forever.

[Thanks, Greg & Stephen, via Ireland.com]

[Rohit Kapur @ Aug 18th 2006 12:04PM]

In the words of Engadget, "saywha?"

I'll believe it when I see it.

I really do hope they've got it though. I know it sounds VERY absurd (and yeah, it really does), but I think it would be incredible if this is true. But right now, there's no info to judge on (is there? I'm too lazy to follow up on the link and read) so let's reserve judgement.

[strider_mt2k @ Aug 18th 2006 12:08PM]

In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics young man!!

[Ultim8fury @ Aug 18th 2006 12:09PM]

cold fusion ? Zero point energy ? Magic hamsters ?

I'm intrigued. I for one would love to meet the people who tamed the magic hamsters ( you know, the ones that started the universe by rolling in the great wheel )

[Rohit Kapur @ Aug 18th 2006 12:10PM]

Actually, I'll refine my first comment.

In the words of Ryan, "saywha?"

[Alex @ Aug 18th 2006 12:11PM]

Sounds very much like the whole Newman energy machine revamped for the 21st century:
http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Inventors/JosephNewman/index.html

Color me skeptical.

[dc @ Aug 18th 2006 12:12PM]

I, for one, welcome the possibility of unlimited free energy.

[ck @ Aug 18th 2006 12:12PM]

The two laws mentioned here should be called theories. They are just our current understanding of how things work. How many time in history has science changed its mind. Also, if this is real, we'll never see it. Some big oil or energy company will just buy it for a stupid amount of money and burn the research. There's no way to make money off a free energy source, therefore, big companies won't let this happen.

[Ryan Schmaltz @ Aug 18th 2006 12:13PM]

Sounds interesting, but like Rohit said, I'll believe it when I see it.

Does anyone have an idea on what this process is?

[mike blackwell @ Jan 4th 2008 10:09AM]

It works by using the national grid to supply the initial power to start motion and will always rely on the grid as a primary backup.It does work but providing stability and equal tollerance are the biggest challanges

Mike Blackwell
Ireland

[Tim @ Aug 18th 2006 12:13PM]

I hate to be cynical and I'd love to be wrong, but this smells of a viral marketing campaign for something.

Of course the ad in The Economist kinda throws it off a bit, but still...

[John Sununu @ Aug 18th 2006 12:14PM]

Calm down, people. These guys are not claiming to circumvent the laws of physics. They merely claim, according to Ryan, "boundless amounts of free energy with no emissions". Any solar cell fits that description.

[Nick @ Aug 18th 2006 12:20PM]

FYI:
The company have hired one of the most expensive PR companies in the world to manage this launch. They have spent over 100k on an ad in the Economist to attract qualified scientists to test the technology and will cover all costs associated with the independent validation.

[Blake F @ Aug 18th 2006 12:20PM]

Not only are the "laws" of thermodynamics just theories, but after some reading on the Steorn site, they dont seem to be violated in any obvious fashion. Just because we may be ignorant of the actual source of the energy, doesn't mean that its being spontaneously generated contrary to some of my favourite laws of physics.

Physics has many other theories, ie. Zero point energy, string theory, etc, which could safely explain such a claim as this.

Don't throw your physics textbooks out quite yet.

[Chris @ Aug 18th 2006 12:24PM]

If you want to check out some real laws of physic being broken, head over to BlackLightPower.com. Their limitless energy technology breaks the cardinal rule of quantum mechanics, that being energy levels are discreet.

Problem is they have years of research and data published and millions of dollars of investments.

[Jim @ Aug 18th 2006 12:24PM]

I, for one, welcome our new Steorn Infinite Energy overlords...

[Loban @ Aug 18th 2006 12:25PM]

"Calm down, people. These guys are not claiming to circumvent the laws of physics. They merely claim, according to Ryan, "boundless amounts of free energy with no emissions". Any solar cell fits that description."

They also claim: "The technology has a coefficient of performance greater than 100%." No system that exists today fits this description.

[Mack Swift @ Aug 18th 2006 12:30PM]

"Lisa! In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!"

More wisdom from the mouth of Homer J. Simpson.

Homer: "The sum of the square root of any two sides of an isosceles triangle is equal to the square root of the remaining side!"

Some Guy: "That's a right triangle you idiot!"

Homer: "Do'oh!!"

[g @ Aug 18th 2006 12:33PM]

"They also claim: "The technology has a coefficient of performance greater than 100%." No system that exists today fits this description."

What? You dont believe in the Refrigerator either?

If this is like other similar devices then the claim is not for energy from nowhere but energy from a source that is little understood...

[barbecued zucchini @ Aug 18th 2006 12:42PM]

If it really works - why not just start selling it? Rather than attempting to get the worlds scientists to endorse / prove it.
Seems a little odd. If I had a machine that made limitless free electricity I would be selling both electricity and licencing the machine to users.

[AJ @ Mar 27th 2009 11:20AM]

Because energy companies make trillions dollars a year, its the biggest business in America or the world at that matter. So as long as people are getting rich from oil or what ever other source. This machine will never see the light of day just for that reason.

[glacia00 @ Aug 18th 2006 12:52PM]

Nonsense. Publish it for peer review and be done with it. If they truly believed their findings there would be no need for theatrics and PR campaigns.

But if they did then they couldn't move to the next part of their campaign which is to publish books for the gulible and juvenile claiming "big oil bought it and burned it".

[John @ Aug 18th 2006 12:55PM]

Maybe it needs some refinement before it's ready for market, and they're trying to get a jump start on the publicity?
I'm skeptical, but not completely. If E=MC^2, then energy is so amazingly abundant in the universe that what would seem infinite to us could easily materialize in any number of ways. We'll know soon these folks are just scamming.
Also, particularly since this is done in such a public way, there is NO chance of some company buying them out just to make a buck by hiding it. Do you have any idea how much money whoever owns this technology could make?

[FlashBIOS @ Aug 18th 2006 12:55PM]

Oh sure, they create free energy, save the world, usher us into a new era of prosperity, blah, blah, blah. The real news here is that they cancelled Christmas!Bastards.

http://www.steorn.net/en/news.aspx?p=2

[Will @ Aug 18th 2006 12:55PM]

Let's say this is true. Did you read the part about how they will liscence it to power companies? WTF? So they are giving the power companies a chance to sell a product that has almost zero cost? Do you think any power utility on the world will pass on the "free" energy to the consumer?

I'll believe it when I see it, but I won't be surprised when Edison buys this, and then claims they don't have enough power, and have to triple my rates, even though the cost for them to produce energy was dramitically cut.

[Stephan T @ Aug 18th 2006 1:00PM]

With comments like this it sounds to good to be true

"...the company developed certain generator configurations that appeared to be over 100% efficient"

"Steorn is making three claims for its technology:

1. The technology has a coefficient of performance greater than 100%.
2. The operation of the technology (i.e. the creation of energy) is not derived from the degradation of its component parts.
3. There is no identifiable environmental source of the energy (as might be witnessed by a cooling of ambient air temperature).
"

If it was real why not just release it and become instantly the worlds richest company/people? I know if I invented this I wouldn't be holding back saying once 12 of the worlds best scientist BLAH BLAH BLAH. Put the thing in action that will speak louder than the scientist you paid off!

My favorite
"Those who were prepared to complete testing have all confirmed our claims; however none will publicly go on record."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, it works yet no one wants to say it this is all such BS! I think the Irish invention is known as Guiness. When people consume too much they believe they have infinte energy, and when they wake up in the morning they don't remember spending any energy at all

[mastershake @ Aug 18th 2006 1:04PM]

its simple they have cats that have buttered toast on thier backs. you then drop said cat into a static electricity harnessing gizmo, the cat spins because toast lands butter down and cats land on their feet, and bingo they spin in a clean and infinite energy paradox.

[splatnik @ Aug 18th 2006 1:07PM]

"Physics has many other theories, ie. Zero point energy, string theory, etc, which could safely explain such a claim as this."

Actually, no. Zero point energy can't help because it's randomly distributed. String theory is not physics yet because it cannot be tested. You're just throwing out buzzwords without knowing what you're talking about.

Calling the "laws" of thermodynamics a "theory" is pointless. The laws of thermodynamics are some of the most tested statements in science and they've held for all these years for a reason. In the end ALL scientific understanding is a "theory" but that doesn't change the fact that science is the most accurately understood knowledge we have as humans. People always try to bust out the "theory" statement when they want to try and circumvent the piles and piles of facts that are counter to their beliefs (see evolution for example).

What's Homer's quote about facts? They can be used to prove anything that's remotely true or something?

[glacia00 @ Aug 18th 2006 1:09PM]

I can think of 4 scenarios in this situation. Either they want...

1. To charitably solve the worlds energy woes - But then you post it all on the internet.

2. Money - But then as someone else pointed out you license it or produce the energy yourself.

3. Scientific credibility - But then you publish it for Peer Review.

4. A quick buck before being discovered to be a fraud. - Then you would have a big PR campaign but keep it all very mysterious.

[Alex @ Aug 18th 2006 1:09PM]

"its simple they have cats that have buttered toast on thier backs. you then drop said cat into a static electricity harnessing gizmo, the cat spins because toast lands butter down and cats land on their feet, and bingo they spin in a clean and infinite energy paradox."

Mastershake sussed it already. I'm investing in bakeries.

[Brian @ Aug 18th 2006 1:15PM]

it's simple, they harness the psychic energy flowing through the upper stratosphere using specially aligned Chi channeling objects. Jesus, their site is a wreck. Any REAL company does one thing before they get round 2 venture capitol: buy up and obtain patents on their tech. No patents, no real tech. Simple as that. They don't have any patents. Their tech is made up.

[John Galt @ Aug 18th 2006 1:21PM]

Just one question....Who is John Galt? ;-)

[Dan @ Aug 18th 2006 1:25PM]

I agree with splatwick. Zero point energy is the lowest amt of energy a system can have. It cannot be removed from a system, no matter what.

Superstring theory applies to string theory it's the basis of how we are to understand atoms. Interestingly atoms do not always obey newton's laws. It's an attempt to combine the understanding of general relativity (with galaxies and such) and the and quantum mechanics which study the fundamental forces at microscopic level (atoms, quarks).

Perpetual motion cannot be sustained, because of the basic element of friction. This would have to be friction less, and every material we have come across has friction or can creat friction. Even light is limited in space because it is bombarded with friction.

Now they say this thing is clean and efficient, my question is, is it practical? Does it create enough energy to be worth it?

[Sen. Ted @ Aug 18th 2006 1:26PM]

I believe their technology is based on a series of tubes.

[Kevin @ Aug 18th 2006 1:26PM]

I find it funny that the company specialises in “combat counterfeiting and fraud in the plastic card and optical disc industries." What does that have to do with energy? Oh wait did I read fraud? Ha they are experts in combating fraud! I think you know where I am going with this it doesn’t take a genius to figure this one out so I will leave it at that.

[Gblade @ Aug 18th 2006 1:35PM]

Assuming it is real the only reason I see in this PR and scientific challenge is to convince investors. A company with 20 employees doesn't have the resources to mass produce the engine and protect their patents. Thus they need to prove themselves to investors/licensers to prepare it for the public.

Of course that's assuming it's a reality. To me it seems like a viral marketing strategy (an oil company maybe).

I would love to never have to plug in my gadgets again!

[BandB @ Aug 18th 2006 1:35PM]

I heard this company is gets it's funding from the Hanso Foundation

[jmufarrige @ Aug 18th 2006 1:35PM]

[quote from http://www.steorn.net/en/news.aspx?p=2&id=22]
Steorn has placed an advertisement in The Economist this week to attract the attention of the world’s leading scientists working in the field of experimental physics.
[/quote]

I didn't realize that the world's leading experimental physicists were such avid Economist readers. How small-minded of me.

[logan11 @ Aug 18th 2006 1:39PM]

This is probably totally irrelevant but anybody find it weird that all their press releases are from August 17th, including the one about a competition from March? That aside the fact that the actual winner of the competition was "Nighthawk" (according to the dit site) not "Blackhawk" as they put on their website...and any number of other discrepancies for an event which they sponsored? This is just one small thing, but seriously their whole site is a wreck.

[Kip HT @ Aug 18th 2006 1:48PM]

mastershake:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Maybe its because its 10 mins to 2 am, but that is the funniest thing ive heard all day

[rob @ Aug 18th 2006 1:52PM]

Actually, according to the definition, a theory is only valid as long as it accurately describes a condition and no contradictory evidence is uncovered. A Law is mearly a theory that has stood long enough to be considered generally true as no contradictory proof has been found yet. All it takes is one simple repeatable fact to drop a Law on it's ear.. FWIW, though, these guys are whack..

[RacetrackOwner @ Aug 18th 2006 1:53PM]

A couple interesting things from their forum.

"The company is currently engaged in the development of its own proprietary battery substitution technology." That was on the old site...

http://www.steorn.net/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=51&page=1#Item_0

...and this...

http://www.steorn.net/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=41&page=1#Item_0

http://v3.espacenet.com/origdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=WO2006035419&F=0&QPN=WO2006035419

Hi, the patent refered to (the low energy magnetic actuator) is not a patent on the core steorn technology. Due to the fact that the US patent office does not allow patents with this claim we have filed a sequence of patents wich describe various aspects of the technology. Thanks, The Steorn Team

[NeoteriX @ Aug 18th 2006 2:27PM]

Well they also say they're breaking the laws of physics in their own press release:

"We are under no illusions that there will be a lot of cynicism out there about our proposition, as it currently challenges one of the basic principles of physics."

[Lysdexic @ Aug 18th 2006 2:31PM]

I belive it is possible. Didn't Family Guy show that the Irish had invented a way to turn people into pure energy before the invention of wiskey?

[frozenrubber @ Aug 18th 2006 2:34PM]

Economist always has the best advertisements. While you can continue to read People magazine, The Economist always has ads for CIA & NSA recruitment.

When all is said and done, the real energy creation breakthroughs will be harnessing of ambient/fixed energy, and not "free energy". Solar is not actually free, but to us, the sun will always shine and it's free enough. The same can be said about the earth's magnetic field, and many other spectrums that exist but we don't notice.

[joe @ Aug 18th 2006 2:57PM]

uh...NO!

[J. Neutron @ Aug 18th 2006 3:09PM]

The machine/big hampster wheel/solar cells/tesla energy tower that this will require doesn't have a cost?

[Otto @ Aug 18th 2006 3:12PM]

Given the content of their "Our Technology" page, as well as the press release, I've sent an email off to James Randi and the James Randi Educational Foundation asking them to forward these nutters an application for the million dollar prize.

With any luck, there will be some good entertainment out of their failure to prove their claims. :)

[operamatic @ Aug 18th 2006 3:17PM]

I might get flamed here but lets say someone invented a way to use for example, gravity for energy wouldn't that be, outside the law of physics? What's to differ if someone collects energy from magnets?
Now I'm skeptical and like to wait to see things unfold, but just because the claim is not fully explained, doesn't mean it isn't valid, people love to hold on to the old without exploring other thinking (Flat Earth Society I'm talking to you).

[madc @ Aug 18th 2006 3:17PM]

this could be another ilovebees scenerio. a viral marketing by MS/BUNGIE....

news was posted on teamxbox.com:

http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/11584/Irish-Company-Claims-to-Have-Discovered-Free-Energy/

[Keith Wakeham @ Aug 18th 2006 3:18PM]

Any 2nd year mechanical engineering student can tell you 3 things.

1) Coefficient of performance is not the same as efficiency
2) efficiency can never go above 100%
3) Coefficient of performance of a heat pump that is less than 5 is actually kinda bad

If I put 1 watt of power into an electric motor I can't get more than 1 watt out, but if I put 1 watt into a heat pump I may be able to move 5 or 10 watts of energy from one place to another. Most people have a heat pump in their house that does the exact same thing, and if you mess up your efficiency coefficient of performance ideas its about 1000% percent efficient. Its your fridge.

The power you supply just moves heat from your food to the room and takes much less power than it does to heat the room.

Lots of free power all around, not free in that it doesn't obey thermodynamics, free that it doesnt' cost anything after an initial investment.

And to think I failed thermodynamics twice