Apple fires retail employees for downloading Leopard

Nobody touches Big Brother's Apple's OS until they're good and ready -- not nobody. Apparently not even Apple employees are beyond the long arm of the law, since a few Apple Retail employees have been sacked after being overheard by the Thought Police co-workers while discussing their evil deeds, and were subsequently reported to corporate. Their crime? Downloading the WWDC edition of Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard that was handed out to developers at the recent keynote and has been popping up on file sharing sites of late. At least five employees have been fired so far, with "dozens" more facing electroshock therapy expulsion. When questioned about their actions, the employees fessed up to the crime, and they seemed to think Apple was in the right for giving them the boot, though they do wonder if they'd still have their jobs if they'd hadn't admitted to downloading Leopard. Guess you'll never know now, eh Honest Abe? Though you can assume with our BitTorrent habits that we wouldn't be blabbing about our recent acquisitions in front any Inner Party members Apple corporate types.

[x23 @ Aug 22nd 2006 11:51PM]

doesn't seem too outrageous to fire an employee for stealing the retail equivalent of $500 from the employer.

i doubt anyone would be too aghast at them being fired for walking out of the store with a $400 iPod and $100 in accessories. and i surely would hope no one would think they *shouldn't* be fired.

"$500!!! what do you mean $500?!!?" ... well. that is the cheapest fee required to join the Apple Developer Connection which would be the only way you would be *legally* entitled to have the current Leopard WWDC build.

[srg59 @ Aug 23rd 2006 12:02AM]

What's this world coming to when you can't steal from your employer on your own time?

[blah @ Aug 23rd 2006 12:02AM]

x23: expect a well-deserved tongue lashing for posting such ignorant, idiotic nonsense in 4, 3, 2...

Downloading copyrighted material is NOT theft. You can only steal material items, and the electronic signals that are passed between your computer and another, when you donload copyrighted material, is not a material item. In any case, Apple doesn't lose a signgle red penny when someone downloads a beta of it's OS, since it will never be released at retail. If anything, news like this is more likely to dissuade people from buying Apple products, or upgrading to leopard when it's released.

Steve: Are you reading this? Hire those kids back, man. Remember what you said, way back when, about you preferring that people pirate YOUR products rather than pirating, or even BUYING, your competitors? This is extremely uncool and just wrong, man. Step in an make things right...

[Raz 4 life @ Aug 23rd 2006 12:07AM]

Engadget like strikeout a little bit? Ha, I jest...

[Kris @ Aug 23rd 2006 12:17AM]

Are there any ftp versions left up anywhere? I can't stand the 43 day bittorrent quest.

[Shunnabunich @ Aug 23rd 2006 12:28AM]

blah: Hate to say it, but stuff like this wouldn't dissuade me at all from upgrading. I know I can't speak for everyone, of course, but I tend to ignore all the (rumoured) scandal and take the product for what it is, in this case the next version of Mac OS X.

And Raz 4 life: I only wish we could put strikeout tags in our comments. :) They contribute so much to one's ability to be snarky merely by typing! That, my friend, is the gift that keeps on giving.

[Edward @ Aug 23rd 2006 12:58AM]

i dunno i agree in part with x23. sorry blah, but i think he has a definite point. you arn't stealing a material product, you're stealing people's time and effort (which is all that you're really paying for when you buy software), literally years of planning and coding. and he's right, it would cost $500+ (more than that because you have to buy tickets to the WWDC etc. etc.). I mean just because you can't feel code running through your fingers (c'mon guys u know what i mean) doesn't mean it can't be stolen. products that arn't tangible can still be stolen- and stealing essentially $500+ of product is a major crime. i know if i were the boss, i probably would've fired them too.

although remember that "amnesty" program the RIAA did? maybe Apple should try something very similar to that? or maybe fine the employees (like withhold some amount, like $129, the cost of what Leopard will be when it is released, from their paychecks).

just my 2 cents on the subject.

[ScrappyPup @ Aug 23rd 2006 1:00AM]

Apple just doesn't get it. The fact that their employees are forced to go to places like bit torrent to play with and even learn their new OS is symptomic of bigger issues. At most software companies (and I work at a big one ;)), employees are actively encouraged to "dogfood" beta software a) so we can help identify issues and file bugs, and b) so we're ramped up on what is, how it works and how to explain it to our customers. I can't imagine the cost of finding, recruiting and training each of the geniuses that Apple just fired from its bar. It boggles my mind

[DaveHimself @ Aug 23rd 2006 1:03AM]

There is absolutely no grey area here. No need for discussion and no special consideration. The comments I've read about this incedent have pointed out to me that people have completely lost site of what a job is and how lucky they are to have one.

[blah @ Aug 23rd 2006 1:03AM]

Shunnabunich: I hate to tell you, but your neoconservative and/or objectivist point of view (that IS what your position is, BTW: it's not a Liberal position) is not shared by the majority of the Apple customer base.

You see, Apple's customers - and potential cusomers - are more socially sensitive and politically conscious than you. The implications of firing peon-level employees because they expressed an interest in the the test version of your software by downloading it are... unseemly, to say the least. Maybe they just wanted to test it so that they'd be able to speak about it knowledgably when/if customers asked about it. Maybe they'd try it and rave to customers that came into the store. Instead, they get to tell all their friends, family, and new coworkers the ugly, sordid details of how Apple laid the smack-down on them. Meanwhile, Apple customers, like me, are left to shake their heads, in disappointment, and question the company we are giving our money to.

[Nate Weaver @ Aug 23rd 2006 1:07AM]

If any employee in any company was caught in possession of the said company's next generation product, currently in R&D, without auth, you'd be canned in a second. As an employee, you should know that. It happens all the time, but if you think you WOULDN'T be canned or it's not right, you're going to have a rude wake up call.

Or put another way...if you do something you know your employer wouldn't approve of, no matter how innocent it seems to YOU, why woud you think you wouldn't get fired for it?

The arguments over whether they stole something material or not is moot. They did something that they should have been smart enough to know that would be heavily frowned upon. Instant can.

[Scooter @ Aug 23rd 2006 1:20AM]

sorry, but isn't this an alpha or demo version, handed out for free as a promotional tool? If I got the story right, the real thing has not even been released. This was just a run-through of some upcoming features, for which Apple wants maximum publicity.
As ScrappyPup notes, Apple's not even keeping its own people informed. Squatting on employees is ugly. Who's next: developers not on the A-list?

[M @ Aug 23rd 2006 1:28AM]

How the HELL is this stealing- and how the HELL would this make apple lose money. Not only is it a super early beta- but they handed it out for free. Who in their right mind is going to use this beta as their main OS when the final leopard comes out? They would notm because that would be insanity. If someone downloads this it just means they're extremely interested in the product- which will in no way affect their purchasing of the final product.

Ridiculous.

[DeadlYRage @ Aug 23rd 2006 2:06AM]

Wow is this site pro pirate? Did not know that:) Guess(Crosses out guess) I will have to delete the bookmark! Honest abe?Wow guess we should support porn on this site as well? Maybe we should become a part of the online mafia and steal software!:D ya baby! Bookmark deleted!

[ECM @ Aug 23rd 2006 2:15AM]

blah: and like a good liberal, you won't modify your behavior one bit--you;ll continue to purhcase whatever Stevie J. decides to shove up your 'socially conscious' exit pipe (and like it.) Put your $$$ where you mouth is or do us all a favor and spare us your moralizing.

Note to 'socially conscious' Apple consumers: Steve doesn't give a damn about your posing--he wants your $$$. The end.

Note 2: I have a two Macs, and numerous iPods so I am not a hater but nor am I some brainless Macolyte that ties up my political identification with a company that wants my $$$ above all else.

[nick @ Aug 23rd 2006 2:32AM]

Since when can you only steal material items? I've seeing hearing people bring this up alot. Last time I check to steal means to take the property of another without permission. Doesn't really matter whether or not that property is physical.

[ransom @ Aug 23rd 2006 3:10AM]

It's amazing how a story like this can bring out all the little want-to-be political science trolls out from under their bridge.

The way I see it:

1. Yes, it's stealing. They deserved the can.
2. But, it's a fairly minor infraction in the grand scheme of things. It would perhaps have been advantagous to Apple to perhaps show a little mercy. A $500 fine seems perfect.

[GetAGrip @ Aug 23rd 2006 3:12AM]

Am I the only person who thinks its sad that you get screwed for doing the right thing (e.g. telling the truth) whereas Schmuck #XXXYY gets to keep his/her job because they lied?

Its sad when doing the right thing bends you over the table for a...strict talking to while being a liar gets you off scott free. I'd rather fire the monkeys who lied about DL'ing it than the Honest Abes who admitted it. At least Honest Abes have integrity.

Or am I in the sad minority?

[Jeff Foster @ Aug 23rd 2006 3:25AM]

i think it's perfectly justifiable.

Pirating is illegal, and pirating from the company you work for (and fessing up to it) seems like grounds on which to be fired.

how is this a story? (or an argument for that matter?)

You can get fired for simply bringing in a USB flash drive if you work at the internal MS helpdesk... that's without even copying anything down.

Someone could have been fired from MS for chewing bubblegum called "mac gum" it wouldn't make an engadget article, but this silly little story about employees getting fired for admitting to pirating from their own company, suddenly makes apple big brother?

er... stop pandering to the haters, EN. shame on you. (but i guess any stupid slanted apple article will get more hits and more advertising revenue than actual GADGET NEWS will, so whatever.)

[Droo @ Aug 23rd 2006 3:31AM]

I really think that employees should be able to join the WWDC for a small sum and get familiar with and energized about the new product, without hardware discounts, etc.

It's readily available on Usenet. However, I'm just going to wait. I'm going to wait for a few reasons:

1> Some things didn't work right on 10.4 when it came out moving up from 10.3. I'm sure this'll be the case with 10.5 for a little.
2> Apple wants you to register your product online. I'm sure there's ways around that, but not interested in exploring them.
3> 10.5 is going to have several more things than the current test release supposedly. From what I've read online in reviews, things are far from complete.
4> It'll be out soon enough really.
5> The current 'additional features' that were demoed at WWDC don't seem like anything I'd be interested in.

[js @ Aug 23rd 2006 4:00AM]

If I were Steve-o I’d fire the guy who ordered these dl’ing guys fired.

Pure and unadulterated Dilbert management
You are too interested in the company you work for; we'll have to fire you. It doesn’t matter that we're giving it to other people, you can't have it.

I mean, how much more can you invite a pr disaster.

Ps1: I just fear I’d have to fire myself
Ps2: scrappy pup: +++

[hussein rawat @ Aug 23rd 2006 4:22AM]

i lost my job over gross misconduct. Had i not admitted to using expletives, i would have still held my post. I wonder if the same can be said of the ex-apple employees had not confessed to the file sharing aspect they would have still held their jobs? Still knowing the way things work with big companies, they will make sure that examples will be made of their employees.

[Mark @ Aug 23rd 2006 4:33AM]

Saying that copying software is stealing, is also saying that memorizing passages from books you read in the library or bookstore, or recording songs off of the radio, is stealing. And yes, I believe Mozart got busted for memorizing sacred music he heard played, and the RIAA tried to make, and perhaps still maintains, that recording music off the radio is illegal. That is immaterial...it's common sense to all that those things are not wrong, or immoral. When the crooks make the laws, the just will become outlaws.

[Eddy @ Aug 23rd 2006 4:34AM]

Why the employee admit they download the Leopard all of sudden?

[idude135 @ Aug 23rd 2006 4:41AM]

All political bullshit aside, it seems awfully unethical for a company like Apple to sack employees just because they were planning to download something, on their own time, on their own Macs.

It's also surprising to see how speculation and allegations turn into firing rushes for damages that were never inflicted to the store, or the company for that matter.

Apple store management is a bunch of superficial, pompous aholes. They think they're so hot, that claim it's easier to make into CalTech, than to land a job with their fascist company.

I would question Apple's rights to invade people's right to privacy.

This time around, I would enjoy to see Apple sued by these people, that were simply curious and sought to grip an understanding of the company's next-generation product.

[Alveryx @ Aug 23rd 2006 5:27AM]

I agree with idude135, they were PLANNING to do this on their own computers on their own time, how can you be fired for speculation of something? I certainly do hope these employees sue Apple, this does seem like invasion of privacy to me, and as the article insinuated, this is all eerily 1984-esque, what with them rattingon each other about this 'thought-crime' they committed.

[JLL @ Aug 23rd 2006 5:36AM]

ScrappyPup: "Apple just doesn't get it. The fact that their employees are forced to go to places like bit torrent to play with and even learn their new OS is symptomic of bigger issues. At most software companies (and I work at a big one ;)), employees are actively encouraged to "dogfood" beta software a) so we can help identify issues and file bugs, and b) so we're ramped up on what is, how it works and how to explain it to our customers."

Uhm, they were retail employees. They need to know about what they sell and sell that - not about some unfinished product that will be released sometime next year.

Many (if not most) people working at Apple can download Leopard.

Scooter: "sorry, but isn't this an alpha or demo version, handed out for free as a promotional tool? "

No, it was handed out to developers under NDA - just as any other seed from ADC.

[myself @ Aug 23rd 2006 6:12AM]

I agree with idude135 too. How can you be fired for just planning to do something? And how can you be fired for something you'd be doing in YOUR own computer, which belongs to YOU, not to the company? I thought companies ruled only over their own computers, not over the employee's personal computers.

[Richard @ Aug 23rd 2006 7:08AM]

A lot of the comments here remind me of the Seinfeld episode where George has sex with the cleaning lady on his desk. When confronted about it he says no one told him it was wrong.

THEY knew what they were doing was wrong, they admitted to breaching NDAs.

I guess I am just a heartless bastard.

[Hammo @ Aug 23rd 2006 7:13AM]

If you are stupid enough to discuss the use of something you shouldn't have at work, then you really do deserve what you get.

Apple's harsh - but they have to be. Developers have this thing for a reason - developing. Retail gimps will get their training when it's appropriate. Can you imagine the misinformation these idiots would be giving customers between now and release.

Yes, it's true that other staff have downloaded it and are using it - but hopefully they are smart enough to keep their top lip and bottom lip joined together!

[mike @ Aug 23rd 2006 7:15AM]

5 apple fan boy less in the world. This is the best part!

[Charles Miller @ Aug 23rd 2006 7:38AM]

I really don't see what the fuss is about here. It doesn't matter whether you think that Apple is making a good decision in keeping its developer previews behind closed doors; pirating software from your own employer is, and deserves to be, the career equivalent of a Darwin award.

Meanwhile, you're kidding yourself if you think that there's any value to _anyone_ in a retail employee having access to the Leopard developer preview. There's nothing in the DP that is of any value whatsoever to non-developers. Period. Almost everything of note in the Leopard seed is either at the API level, or in the developer tools. The only thing a consumer is likely to notice is the eight months of bug-fixing that lies between the seed and a commercial release.

[TZK @ Aug 23rd 2006 8:23AM]

How the hell would APPLE know they downloaded it to begin with? IS APPLE God? Do they know all?

Smells like poo to me.

[Jonathan Allen @ Aug 23rd 2006 9:24AM]

My understanding of copyright laws (and I may be wrong) was not neccesarily that it was illegal to download, but to distribute. If that is the case, Apple should be going after the developer that initially posted his/her copy of Leopard on bittorent.

[Matt @ Aug 23rd 2006 9:26AM]

Apple should worry about how well they treat their customers before they start tracking down petty crap like downloading a torrent.

I own a MacBook Pro 17. Apple Retail has done a horrible job with repairing a screen failure. For the first replacement, they promised they'd call me the next day. They didn't. I called a few days later and was more-or-less yelled at on the phone. The person I spoke to had no clue about my repair and did no digging around to check the status--he basically said (with the implied rudeness): "don't call us, we'll call you." They called a few days after that, and I brought my MacBook Pro in. The screen was replaced--with the wrong screen! I had a glossy screen, but they replaced it with a matte screen.

This time, the manager intervened and the screen replacement worked. However, I was told that the screen would arrive before noon, and that I'd have a replacement the same day. It arrived after noon, and they told me that to have it replaced the same day, I'd have to come back the next day. This was relayed to me through one of my colleagues, who was practically yelled at on the phone by the Apple Retail employee.

Now, this screen has failed--there's a diffuser spot in the middle of the screen. I take very good care of the laptop, so I know it's not my fault.

My point: Apple should be worrying about customers like me and making sure we're happy before they're firing employees for downloading software that is easily obtained from BitTorrent sites.

The firings are absolutely ineffective anyway. The lesson that employees will learn is that they ought to lie to their Apple Retail managers.

Furthermore, if they claimed that the downloads violated an NDA, they're wrong, and they're giving the employees an avenue to sue. NDAs only cover material provided by Apple, and only cover non-public information. Downloading Leopard from very well-trafficed BitTorrent sites means that they didn't get the information from Apple, and that it was public information anyway. (I'd like to see Apple claim that the more heavily used trackers aren't public, given download counts in the tens of thousands for some files!).

Yes, the employees pirated Leopard. Yes, piracy is wrong. Yes, that's valid ground for termination. (However, NDA violation is NOT, and if I were them, I'd call an attorney). The bigger point is that Apple should be focusing on improving the performance of employees at Apple Retail and not on fighting stupid 'seekret!' battles. After my experience at Apple Retail, I look at the ThinkPads and Dells on campus around me and wonder if Vista might not be that bad after all... especially when I see Dell and Lenovo on-site service making sure their customers are happy.

[Nate @ Aug 23rd 2006 11:07AM]

Umm, weren't these guys downloading this stuff on their OWN time and in THEIR home instead of on company time at work? Why should they be punished for this? It's almost as lame as a Best Buy employee getting fired for downloading a CD just because Best Buy sells CDs...

[len @ Aug 23rd 2006 11:32AM]

I wonder how many of these Apple apologists have an iPod full of stolen music?

And when did being an absolute control-freak asshole become cool?

[jared @ Aug 23rd 2006 11:59AM]

Intelligent youth tends toward misplaced enthusiasm that, if steered rather than harshly prosecuted, can become greatness.

On the other hand, sometimes that "steering" involves being made to find another job (or getting kicked out of university for a year or two).

There are worse fates than being fired from a retail gig, but it'd be a real shame if these events made the kids ineligible for eventual developer jobs in Cupertino.

[MAF @ Aug 23rd 2006 12:04PM]

This is a very foolish, anti-corporate rant. Unbookmarked and unsubscribed as well.

[glacia00 @ Aug 23rd 2006 12:10PM]

This was probably done as a message to others before the finished version exists. This is hardly the most serious leak. I know that the Singapore part of the Mini project leaked copies of the OS like mad. It was the version on shelves at the time but none-the-less piracy... avast ye.

[I. Hate Corporate Stooges @ Aug 23rd 2006 12:29PM]

MAF: Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out! 'Aight, buddy? Buhbye corporate reptile!

[Doesn't Matter @ Aug 23rd 2006 1:04PM]

The WWDC version is just Tiger with a few extras from the new OS.
The only major things in it are Spaces & Time Machine.

[Scott @ Aug 23rd 2006 1:28PM]

Does anyone here know what an "at will" employee is? I can't imagine these employees were anything other than at will employees. So, stop saying the employees should contact an attorney. They have absolutely no case. They can be fired for "any reason or no reason at all" except obviously for age, gender, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc.

Also, imagine the headlines if Apple did nothing: "Apple OK With Pirating... As Long As You're One of Them." People would call them hypocrites for going after software pirates but looking the other way on their own employees. They have no choice but to do something. I'm not saying they have to fire the people (a less permanent punishment would reduce the press on it), but they're taking a stance on it and you better believe that at least some employees will be less likely to download it as a result.

Personally, I agree that it sucks for these employees because they're obviously interested in what their company is doing. There are countless companies that would love to have employees who actually care about the company product. But following the rules of your employer is about as well established as any employment rule I can think of. People shouldn't be surprised that Apple disapproves of this.

[Casey @ Aug 23rd 2006 1:50PM]

An essential piece of informtion lacking in the orginal story and all the comments is if the employees were made aware of Apple Corporate Policy that such conduct was unacceptable. From personal experience having had to terminate employees, it is a very difficult process, because of the potential legal backlash.

Rembmeber that employees can be terminated for sexual harrassment and a host of other statutory illegal activity. This infraction must have been very clearly a violation of Company policy. As a viable Company, you don't want to routinely retain employees who violate laws or Corporate policy, however there is a great deal of discretion in enforcing the rules.

In my opinion, terminating these employees may have been heavy-handed. I think a warning may have been sufficient, unless these employees had been warned at least 2-3 times that such conduct was unacceptable.

Apple should ensure that all employees are clear as to Company policy and State and Federal laws.

The public should be aware that most US Corporations have many checks and balances to protect employee rights, Apple is subject to many laws under the State of California and the US Government. I hope that there are lessons learned for all of us (including Apple) from this story.

[Nick @ Aug 23rd 2006 3:52PM]

Geez, all you Apple-bashers are barking up the wrong tree. When any person enters employment with Apple, they sign a non-disclosure agreement. Grabbing a copy of Leopard violates that agreement, and subjects the employee to termination. Period.

It doesn't matter if they were curious, or if you think it helps them do their job. It doesn't matter if it was on their own time. They broke their confidentiality agreement, and they deserved to be fired.

[apple blows @ Aug 23rd 2006 4:51PM]

mac sucks

[Scott Scratch @ Aug 23rd 2006 4:55PM]

Hehe, I haven't purchased a stand-alone version of Mac OS since 8.5.

[Ian @ Aug 24th 2006 3:44AM]

"Apple OK With Pirating... As Long As You're One of Them." People would call them hypocrites for going after software pirates but looking the other way on their own employees.
"

Are you stupid or something? how is that at all hyporitical? The company owns the rights to the software, so they can easily choose who to enforce those rights on.
Its like the RIAA saying they HAVE to sue the grannies or the family of that dead guy.

[Scott @ Aug 24th 2006 5:47PM]

Nope, I'm not stupid. I'm just making a point you
obviously didn't get. You're right, Apple does own the rights to the software. It also, obviously, has policies and rules in effect that restrict who the permissible recipients of the software are. These policies and rules clearly exclude employees of the Apple stores from being permissible recipients of the software. As a result, when those employees download the software they are no different from your "average Joe" downloader.

It's irrelevant that they own the rights to the software. The fact is, there is a reason why they give that software to the people they do. And if you're not on that list of approved recipients, Apple doesn't want you to have it. The only difference between an employee and anyone else is that Apple has control over their employees. You're right that Apple can choose who to enforce their rights on, but when they use that choice to treat their own differently than the public, they become hypocritical.

If this hypothetical situation happened, Apple would be preaching that they don't want unapproved people to download their software, but at the same time would be looking the other way when it's one of their own who downloads it. This is the very essence of hypocracy.

I'll now refer you to your first question in your post.

[jman @ Aug 28th 2006 1:14AM]

Come on here people. These guys are tech people just like most of us, they want to be on the bleeding edge. They probably are/were huge apple fans as well. So what would any true fan do? Find a way to check it out. If only so when you are working you can pump people up about how cool OS X is and how many new features are coming while the rest of the world continues to wait for Microsoft. If they worked at the Apple bar, they should have recieved a copy in the first place, aren't those guys the ones that know the best what people are asking for, the problems that they have, and mabey even the best solution to the problem. APPLE SHOULD DEFINATLY HAVE THEM AS PART OF THE IN LOOP, not excluding and firing them. Get real.