Zune wireless: worthless (for now)

So throughout this whole Zune launch thing the whole lot of us have been playing cat and mouse with Microsoft on the finer points. Will it or won't it be built on PlaysForSure or some variant? How will it recognize copyrighted vs. creative commons content without opening up piracy loopholes? And perhaps most importantly: how will the wireless work? Well, it turns out that a Zune employee by the name of David Caulton thought it'd be worth putting together a cogent explanation of what the Zune wireless connection can and can't do.

You can:

• Can search for and find other Zunes nearby.
• Can send songs / albums for the 3 x 3 trial. Songs past the three days / listens are deleted at next sync, but catalogued on your PC for record-keeping should you want to purchase them later. No word on whether Microsoft is going to keep track of which files are traded.
• You can send and receive image files for "unlimited viewing." (Oh, so copyrighted images aren't worth DRMing?)

You can't:

• Connect to the internet.
• Download songs directly from the Zune store via WiFi.
• Sync to your computer via WiFi.

Sorry Microsoft, we think you have it backward. The killer app of having wireless in a portable media device isn't sharing DRMed files -- it's downloading music from a near infinitely large library no matter where you're at. That's why the MusicGremlin was and is so freaking cool. All the music, none of the bother with PCs. So to find out the Zune won't even match that device in terms of use for wireless is a little disappointing, to say the least. Granted this above is with regard to the feature list for launch (and Microsoft doesn't claim the Zune is feature-complete), so we can probably assume that we'll be expected to hold out for later Zune firmware releases where actually useful wireless capabilities will be added.

[Luigi @ Oct 2nd 2006 11:36AM]

How could you say this?

Just because its first gen doesnt mean it cant have all the features. The thing is twice as big as a 30gig iPod. The only halfway decent thing is the UI, which Apple is sure to fix in the near future.

And dependable? How would you consider a company who had to extend warenties on Xbox360's because they were breaking "dependable"? How about the 1,000's of virus that Vista will get on Launch?

And may not have any intentions to release all these features you are talking about. Stop living on false hope, and buy a proven Mp3 player instead, regardless of whether its an iPod.

[Magus @ Oct 2nd 2006 12:21PM]

i wouldnt say that exchanging songs is worthless. If you remember anything about the ipod craze and swapping headphones deal or the elaborate craptacular devices people use to transferd still drmed ipod content across.
The question is it a toggle or is it always on...
Would be kind of odd to have it costantly searching for other zunes let alone a waste of batery life.

[z @ Oct 2nd 2006 12:32PM]

I really don't care about wifi. When I want to share my music, I email the urls or write down the name via SMS on my mobile.

[James AB @ Oct 2nd 2006 2:52PM]

"I've been watching all the media coverage on the Zune ever since it was first brought to light. This is one exciting product! Microsoft is leading the way here by developing something cool, hip and original. I can't wait until this comes out. I know myself and all my friends will be buying one. There's a lot of buzz on this one."

Look at that statement. Speaking of underground/gorilla marketing . . . I mean, come on Microsoft, with your huge cash reserves this is the best underground marketing team you could find to hype your product? "Hip and Cool" . . . "lots of buzz". Give me a break. Someone out there thinks Engadget readers are super dense.

[Jeff Foster @ Oct 2nd 2006 6:12PM]

"I highly recommend buying the Zune over an iPod. It's a very cool product."

Thanks, you freakin' Microsoft rep.

[Kodiak @ Oct 4th 2006 12:51PM]

What's it feel like to be a plant?

Do you miss your soul?

[gzat @ Oct 4th 2006 8:07PM]

"...I'll be purchasing Zunes for the whole family."

I'm sure your employee discount will facilitate that.

[Frank @ Oct 5th 2006 9:28AM]

Jesus Christ, Joe, why didn't you just put your your "Microsoft PR Department" e-mail signature at the end of you message? Comment and forum thread plants are even lower in status than telemarketers, IMO.

[R-Bro @ Oct 2nd 2006 9:05AM]

Search for other Zunes nearby? Send songs to other Zunes?! Talk about worthless features. This is nothing but Microsoft's attempt to compete with the iPod by stuffing in features that nobody wants and almost nobody will use (kinda like, cough, Word, cough).

[GLYN @ Oct 3rd 2006 3:08PM]

oh so its ok for apple to bring out, an ipod, that dosent have these features and is labled "amazing!" but soon as microsoft bring out something its tagged as shit!...
at the end of the day its better than an ipod, looks better if u ask me, and as wireless. ye you cant connect to the internet, but can you with an ipod? no!, yeh apple will probly now take this put it into their ipod, and add some better feautures to it aswell but for now, this is better than an ipod, an looks just as gd if not better. so stop bitching and just say now they brought a new idea to the table, which can be worked upon and made better..
an im not dissin ipod, as i have had 5, altho there batteries are abit shit but i'll be expecting this with the zune aswell.
anyway like i said at the moment this is better so give them some credit.

[Jason @ Oct 2nd 2006 9:05AM]

So will there be a firmware update later that allows the Zune to do what it can't do now?

[Intrepid @ Oct 2nd 2006 10:06PM]

I would say yes. This is just another post written by someone who doesn't know all of Microsoft's plans... just because a feature wont be available from day one, doesn't mean that it wont come. It's probably being held back for technical or legal reasons.
And what's with the heading for this article? It's not half obvious what the motive is going to be.

[TexRob @ Oct 2nd 2006 9:06AM]

Thank you Engadget, this thread alone is going to get me through this work day. The entertainment that is going to ensue will be priceless if that Zune vs iPod thread is any indication.

Come on MS employees, get to typing, we all know you guys are here trolling... I mean, posting independant thoughts and not being paid by MS to post on blogs...

[Sebastian @ Oct 2nd 2006 9:09AM]

Bulky, bulky, BULKY......... If it was just a lot thinner, it WOULD be amazing.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaarg, you want to know the truth? The ONLY reason I want the Zune, is the way it displays album art. I really hate the small album art function the current iPods have.

Don't care for DRM, I'd rather buy the cd, rip it and do what I want with it...


(DRM will ONLY be a problem for "most people" when MS changes something that limits the way you can use "your music" AFTER you have bought it...

[Andy @ Oct 2nd 2006 9:09AM]

And thus begins the downward spiral of the Zune.

[djp @ Oct 6th 2006 5:34PM]

You can't have a downward spiral from the bottom.

[Ashley Allen @ Oct 2nd 2006 9:19AM]

I agree the wireless sharing thing is going to be pretty pointless to begin with and even when/if they get a critical mass of zunes out there unless your in a city or other densely populated area it's not going to be that useful.

But equally this is the same team that put together the Xbox project, They put a network card in every Xbox and it was pretty much useless for the first year, but then Xbox Live came round and totally changed the whole market and then if you look at where Xbox Live started and where it is today... MS gave the people what they wanted.

I wouldn't be suprised if features like WiFi on Zune access to the Marketplace, Zune Marketplace on 360, WiFi Syncing and such come along very soon. But atleast it has the possibility to do these things in the future.

[z @ Oct 2nd 2006 12:25PM]

Are you Ashley Allen the fantastic playmate? Always wanted an autographed photo! Wow!;-)

[ectomort @ Oct 3rd 2006 2:27PM]

@Ashley
"I wouldn't be suprised if features like WiFi on Zune access [...] come along very soon. But atleast it has the possibility to do these things in the future."

I base decisions for consumer electronics purchases on what it can do NOW; not what it might do in the future. How else can you legitimately compare product value? Zune 1.0 is a (admittedly noisy) non-starter until it actually DELIVERs on some of its much ballyhooed potential.

[Tyler @ Oct 2nd 2006 9:27AM]

Just wait until someone cracks it open and figures out how to put linux on it! Then we'll probably see Wifi internet quicker than Microsoft can put it in.

Personally, I think the Zune is nice, a bit bulky though, but overall, there are still devices that beat the Zune in terms of price, functionality, and features, but none have Wifi either.

[Andir3.0 @ Oct 2nd 2006 9:30AM]

"You can send and receive image files for "unlimited viewing." (Oh, so copyrighted images aren't worth DRMing?)"

Exactly the problem with DRM. You can see pictures of the Mona Lisa on a daily basis in your local library and never have to pay a surcharge to view it. If you want to see the real thing, you can go to the museum and see it in person.

The same works for Music (though on a shorter timeline). If you want to see the band in person, you can go to the concert. You should be able to listen to the song privately as many times as you like. DRM makes this harder than it needs to be.

[Nigelt @ Oct 2nd 2006 9:31AM]

I live on my own and don't often come into contact with others so the sharing with other Zunes not very useful. Ryan is correct in that it would be great to download tracks and equally useful would be the ability to sync with PC without cables etc.

I'll stick with the iPod for the time being and anyway, I quite like iTunes.

[Iain @ Oct 2nd 2006 9:31AM]

In a few days after launch it will be hacked and be a great multicapable device.

[Paul @ Oct 2nd 2006 9:31AM]

I was looking forward to the wireless, but this is stupid, why not allow it to sync wirelessly at least?

[shirizaki @ Oct 2nd 2006 9:37AM]

Battery. Wifi probably drains the battery enough. Well, no wireless sync or anythng about non-DRMd music makesme rethink my choice. I might just go with the gigabeat afterall.

[The1 @ Oct 2nd 2006 9:32AM]

Darn, I wanted to get a Zune when it came out thinking that the wireless features would include the FEATURES it cannot do. I will wait until Spring 2007 to purchase a Zune, if and only if things change. I guess I will have my IPOD for another couple of months.

[boolean22 @ Oct 2nd 2006 9:43AM]

It's sad enough they had to downprice the thing to compete only to later add that they're only 'promising' new functionality on the horizon.
I personally think they should make a whitepaper of what the Zune is 'intended' to do, once it's 'feature-complete'. The thing looks nice, and I won't sync to Zune Marketsh** since I buy my own CDs, but not being able to sync to the PC on the fly, it's kinda boomer.

[TexRob @ Oct 2nd 2006 9:44AM]

FYI, for the Xbox360 comments above, the Xbox360 does not have wifi built in.

[mrz @ Oct 2nd 2006 9:47AM]

Well this seems very useful

[b @ Oct 2nd 2006 9:48AM]

I will wait and see what the hacks are like.

But one thing that does make me wonder...

What about more indie music that can not be purchased through the Zune Marketplace?

[Dave95 @ Oct 2nd 2006 9:52AM]

I believe wifi will be a staple in many DAPs as years go by, the question is who will do it right? My money is on Apple who knows a thing or two about satisfying the consumers.

What I would like:
Don't care about sending songs to others (or vise versa), that only limits the number of shared songs, as this Zune demonstrates. Allow me to search for other wifi players and listen to their shared playlist as much as I want, as long as they are in range. Think iTunes on a campus setting shared over a network.

Podcast has grown so fast it's insane for MS not to support it. I would love to be able to get the latest news (cnn, bbc, etc) sync wirelessly on my DAP as it becomes available.

Battery is of major concern here with wifi, so all this is moot if battery technology is not up to par.

[qwest94 @ Oct 2nd 2006 9:57AM]

M$oft missed a huge opportunity here by not allowing syncing/downloading remotely. Consider daily podcasts. I download the Wall St. Journal daily edition from audible, through ITunes and into my IPod everyday to listen to while I commute. Everyday it is a pain to hook the Ipod up in the morning and have it sync. Every time I do it I think of how nice it would be if the iPod just woke up in the morning, checked to see if any new podcasts were available and downloaded them in the background wirelessly without my intervention.

Think also of streaming YouTube to this thing . . . that would be another killer app.

In a way, Apple is lucky. If MSoft had introduced some of these simple uses of the WiFi Apple might be in trouble. As it is, I dont think they have anything to worry about.

[Kspraydad @ Oct 2nd 2006 10:02AM]

A. Same price as iPod
B. More features

'Nuff said.

[TexRob @ Oct 2nd 2006 10:10AM]

"A. Same price as iPod
B. More features

'Nuff said."

A PDA has more features than both, so at what point do you draw the line for being much bulkier? The fact is, the 30gb iPod, if you saw it next to that Zune, would be insane. The 30gb iPod is probably half as thick.

[Kspraydad @ Oct 2nd 2006 12:35PM]

Instead of making assinine statemtents like: "The 30gb iPod is probably half as think' why don't you look it up?

.43 inches for iPod
.58 inches for the Zune

[Frank @ Oct 2nd 2006 10:11AM]

STOP.....STOP....STOP WASTING YOUR MONEY, MP3 players are D E A D. PPC-6700 and Orb, DONE. You can stream all your music from your home PC to your phone (2 Terrabytes anyone?) Plus anything else you can do with a PC minus ripping a physical CD or DVD on the spot for $320.

[Dave95 @ Oct 2nd 2006 10:18AM]

A. Same price as iPod
B. More features
C. But Less Battery (12 hours), less with wifi on
D. Thick, no click wheel, no podcast in marketplace
C. Offset


Nuff Said

[xbit @ Oct 2nd 2006 10:18AM]

Microsoft used to allow WiFi syncing with their Pocket PC PDAs. However they ditched this feature about a year ago for "security reasons". I guess the deal is the same with the Zune.

Downloading music straight from the internet via WiFi could be a killer feature though, especially for those that travel on business a lot and the subscription-based sales model.

[Richard @ Oct 2nd 2006 10:18AM]

"A. Same price as iPod
B. More features

'Nuff said."

The iPod has much better battery life, is thinner, provides gapless playback (unknown whether Zune will) and has support for a loseless codec (another Zune unknown).

Same price, *different* features.

[Colin @ Oct 2nd 2006 10:36AM]

Richard:

The 30GB iPod plays for up to 14 hours of audio and 4 hours of video.
The 30GB Zune plays for up to 12 hours of audio and 3.5 hours of video.

You're right...that is 'much more' :{

[NotOfThisEarth @ Oct 2nd 2006 10:19AM]

Wow. Way to fuck up this launch. Can't do the very things that I'd intended to wirelessly? No Internet? No wifi PC sync? Sooo wifi is in there for what exactly? To share with other Zunes? Uhh Yeah. See ya next year when your all hacked and useful if it even survives.

[Brian @ Oct 2nd 2006 10:29AM]

You know, I feel bad for Microsoft in a way. People invest all their hopes and dreams into what features it will or won't have, and when their pie-in-the-sky dreams don't come true, they pout and get disappointed. Lots of people will be disappointed by the Zune this time around, but I'm sure in 2.0 (and better yet 3.0) they will take these complaints into consideration. Apple, on the other hand, releases features when they are more fully-baked, and doesn't prerelease so it doesn't court these kind of expectations. However the furious Apple rumor mill has almost the same effect.

In the end, I think you'll find that a lot of the frustrations people have with MP3 players is caused by the hoops they have to jump through for the record labels. And Microsoft isn't going to change that anytime soon.

[Kevin @ Oct 2nd 2006 11:34AM]

"The 30GB iPod plays for up to 14 hours of audio and 4 hours of video.
The 30GB Zune plays for up to 12 hours of audio and 3.5 hours of video.

You're right...that is 'much more' :{"

Hmmm when you take into consideration how thick the Zune is and how thin the iPod is, that is a huge difference. MS couldnt get 20 hours out of that brick?

To the guy who says you would only buy an iPod for for 'cool' factor or that you hate MS. That is an incredibly stupid argument.

What if I like Apple? What if I like the iPod? What if my computer is a Mac which limits the number of players I can use? My iPods do everything I need them to. Which for me is playing music. I don't need wireless, I don't need to watch videos. The current iPod is a great size. I would hope Apple would introduce a larger video-centric model.

Which will probably be:
Widescreen
Thinner than the Zune
Have more capacity than the Zune
It will probably do this wireless thing right

Anyhow, to suggest that people only buy iPods to be cool is ridiculous. So now what, people buy Zunes to be anti-cool, or is it really just a new conformist movement cloaked in a anti-conformist motive?

[Justin @ Oct 2nd 2006 10:38AM]

i can see it now.
the Zune as the Ultimate Ice Breaker

"Hey Baby, wanna 'interface'?"

[b @ Oct 2nd 2006 10:43AM]

I agree with the ORB and PPC-6700 option. That is currently what I use. Also considering on getting a slingbox for the tv stream.

[Rohit @ Oct 2nd 2006 10:45AM]

Well let me make a few points here:
1. Even without the wireless the Zune beats iPod feature to feature (FM, bigger screen).
Is that a reason enough to give away your iPod�no. But if you are in the market right now then Zune is a better choice than iPod. The only reason to go for Apple is either because you hate MS or just are after the �cool� image.
2. First generation Zune is a starting platform. I don�t think MS is trying to capture the market with the Zune as it will stand when it will be launched. The idea is to get a functioning product out there and then get some good feedback. I expect to see some really interesting firmware upgrade soon.
3. Getting music wirelessly is sure to come and expect to see it within months of launch.

I know people hate MS. They don�t pay me and nor does Apple. But the truth is that apart from snob value Apple does not have much going for it self these days with iPod. All MS needs to do is capture about 35% of market in about 3 years. That will be enough to hurt Apple as the rely on iPod so heavily. And on top of this just in case the movie download feature does not work for Apple, then they are in big trouble.

Don�t get me wrong, I like Apple. But in PM market they are a monopoly and like all monopoly (like ME in OS) they have been sitting on there ass. On top of that now I see signs of all the trouble which is associated with a monopole like:
1. Labor condition in their iPod manufacturing plant.
2. Patches for iTunes.
3. Patches for Mac OS X

I am happy that MS is in PMP market. Competition was needed here.
Rohit

[Chris @ Oct 2nd 2006 11:38AM]

Well, apparently you don't see the smaller size of the iPod as a feature. Many do. Apple hasn't been ditting on their ass either as the size has shrunk about as much as possible. That is no easy task as MS has discovered. Also, the iPod really can't be considered a product for snobs since it is not priced higher than competitors.

If I had to choose between a smaller iPod or a larger iPod with wireless capability of very limited value, I would choose the smaller iPod.

The Zune has a bigger screen but the same non-widescreen resolution (320x240) of the iPod. I really don't consider this to be much of an improvement.

[Steve @ Oct 2nd 2006 11:46AM]

@Rohit:

1) Or, alternativley, if you don't attach much or any value to the features the Zune brings to the table versus the iPod. For instance, I never ever listen to the radio and don't see the point of the bigger screen on a device that I would use almost exclusivley for music. There's also the small point that the iPod line is tried and tested technology that (by and large) just works. Whereas with Zune you're paying for first generation hardware with no track record whatsoever and no userbase to provide honest feedback upon which to base a purchase decision.

2) Great, so you're going to pay the same money as an iPod for something that is by your logic a beta product? Seriously, why should we as consumers put up with that attitude from ANY company, let alone one with the resources of Microsoft? For that matter look at Microsoft and their general attitude towards updating functionality on Windows Mobile, it hasn't exactly been great. We're still waiting on A2DP to be implemented on the first gen of Windows Mobile 5 devices.

3) You're basing this prediction on.... what exactly? Yes, you'd think it'd be a common sense decision to allow such a thing but in that case why not have it ready for the launch? They've had more than enough time after all and as someone else pointed out MS actually removed wireless sync for PDA's from Activesync in the recent past.

Here's my biggest problem with the "that functionality will be along shortly" approach - even if the statement is true you'd be a mug to buy one at launch. Hold on to your cash for a little bit longer, wait until the functionality is in and tested before buying. That way you get actual reviews of the units from real users, some indication of reliablity and robustness, and of course the competition might have rolled out something better in the meantime. Imagine if you bought a Zune now and then, in a few months time when wireless downloads are turned on, Apple has launched a widescreen iPod with wireless and bluetooth that can sync and connect to the iTunes store for the same sort of money as your Zune. You'd surely feel a bit annoyed about that?

[Jeff Foster @ Oct 2nd 2006 6:11PM]

"1. Even without the wireless the Zune beats iPod feature to feature (FM, bigger screen). [...] Zune is a better choice than iPod. The only reason to go for Apple is either because you hate MS or just are after the �cool� image."

their "bigger screen" is marginally larger, and the same resolution. I hardly care about that (i upgraded my camera for the same .5" gain and i hardly notice.) avoiding FM is exactly why i bought an iPod. who the hell uses FM? that can hardly be a part of the argument. What about lower prices for higher capacities? does that not enter the equation? what about smaller size for higher capacity?

It seems to me that the iPod is beating the zune hands down other than 3 comparatively minor things (worthless wifi, worthless fm, and marginal screen size)

"2. First generation Zune is a starting platform. I don�t think MS is trying to capture the market with the Zune as it will stand when it will be launched...."

that may be, but judging a product on what you imagine it might someday be, well that sounds kinda pointless to me.

"...the truth is that apart from snob value Apple does not have much going for it self these days with iPod."

Being the market leader? having a fantastic product? continually out-selling the "better, more featured" competition? that doesn't happen because of magic. you say you dont hate apple, but you sure are hating for no justified reason. maybe, just MAYBE, the iPod sells incredibly well because it is a very good product. "More features" doesn't necessarily equal better, simplicity can be a powerful thing.

"...that will be enough to hurt Apple as the rely on iPod so heavily. And on top of this just in case the movie download feature does not work for Apple, then they are in big trouble."

you obviously have no idea what apple's finances look like. They're not by any means using the iPod/iTunes as a crutch. they use it to boost their core business sales, Mac hardware. look it up. Though Apple may make a killing on ipods, it certainly is NOT the crux of their profits, and the iTMS sales account for very little.


"I am happy that MS is in PMP market. Competition was needed here. - Rohit"

Me too, i always love to see competition. I have the suspicion though that all these extra features will prove to apple that no one really cared about it in the first place... and the so-called "competition" wont account for much (though i hope otherwise.)

cheers.

[DJ @ Oct 2nd 2006 10:46AM]

the Zune has the the most usless wireless functions in any product that has wireless