Microsoft to start its own chip design lab for new Xbox
By Cyrus Farivar 
posted Oct 21st 2006 8:03AM
posted Oct 21st 2006 8:03AM
Ah, Wintel. The mere convergence of the words "Windows" and "Intel" harkens back to a simpler time (call it the 1980s and 1990s), when Microsoft and Intel were literally joined at the hip. Microsoft provided the software, and Intel brought the brains. Today in the aught decade, everything's all whacked -- Apple has partnered with Intel, dumping IBM. Meanwhile, Microsoft is in the video game business, and now powers its Xbox with IBM chips. Well, get ready for yet another change in the who's-in-bed-with-whom story: Microsoft is leaving IBM. Who's the lucky bride? Itself! Yes, that's right, according to a report in yesterday's Gray Lady, Microsoft will be starting its own chip design division, with the ultra-creative name: "The Computer Architecture Group," and will be split between Redmond, Washington and Mountain View, California. The venerable NYT adds that Microsoft will use the lab to beef up chips in the next-generation Xbox (the Xbox 720?), and will be headed by Charles P. Thacker (pictured here working on the CAG gang sign). He's formerly of the legendary Xerox Palo Alto Research Center, where he helped work on the original Alto and the invention of Ethernet. All that aside, we're kinda concerned that IBM doesn't get too depressed over this development, and hope that Big Blue will at least get the kids, the car, and the house.[Via TG Daily]
very cool
Does it surprise anyone that just right before the launch of two major consoles, Microsoft decides they want to leak information concerning their next XBOX? XBOX 3 to be exact. But their not going to call it XBOX 3, because by that time, Sony will have PS4 out....so my guess is that XBOX 3 will be called XBOX 480....or XBOX to the 4th....or some stupid crap like that.
And all those poor bastards who actually have a 360....Micro$oft is already thinking beyond you. Nice. That's loyalty for you. How bought sinking those R/D dollars into the current system?
Lastly, Microsoft hasn't made one red cent from XBOX as a whole yet...this entire thing has been a money loser from the beginning. Reminds me of Bush and the war....he just doesn't get it! Stay the course M$!
FrankDaCrank,
You are completely ignorant of the business, you know that? Companies go into Research and Development for their new consoles right after the release of their current ones. It's not like Microsoft is taking everyone from the Xbox 360 team and putting them on the Xbox Next Gen crew, they're merely working on their new product.
How long do you think it takes to think up, design, and produce a new console? A year? Two? Try about three or four on average, and five in some cases. It takes time, money, manpower, and technology. Microsoft is working on the time and technology part right now.
They aren't ditching the Xbox 360 and owners, they're showing consumers that they're committed to the future of the console gaming industry.
Its going to take them years to get the new lab to produce anything that could be marketed, so this is kinda the right time to do it.
I have to laugh though, with all this talk of bed swapping does this mean that Microsoft will be jacking off until the next xbox?
Um, Microsoft never expected to make a profit. The Xbox was a stopgap, get your foot in the door product, and was designed to pave the way for a larger vision. When you have $40 Billion in the bank you can do those kinds of things.
Oh and I know you probably don't get it yet, but unless companies innovate, they go away. Maybe, if you are in charge of anything someday that is, you'll understand what I'm saying.
And yes, woe is me...All the games I have enjoyed, damn them all to hell for letting me have some fun!
Sony and Nintendo are already working on the next wave as we speak as well.. Thats how it works , its not like a new xbox is coming out next year
Ummmm may I ask what you are smoking? Define working on? Yeah maybe one or two people at Sony are daydreaming about their next console if you define that as working on. As far as first comment is concerned, Microsoft strategy is smart and is similar to an arms race. If Microsoft keeps churning out a new console every 2-3 years thats fantastic. People (like myself) will keep buying them. Look at the life of a console since the 2600, seems to be decreasing correct? Other companies that don't follow suit aren't going to survive.
Maybe this will mean that Microsoft is eventually planning to make their own pc's - entirely. Teach Intel a lesson for going to the Dark... I mean Mac side.
If MS keeps the current 4 year cycle and Sony keeps their 6-ish year cycle, MS can come out with XBOX3 (I'll throw Xbox 1080, into the ring, or they'll follow Nin's ideas and give it a "name") in 2009, and XB4 in 2013.
Sony releasing PS3 in 2006, and will release PS4 in 2012 or 2013...that's when they'll meet up again to compete head to head, near a launch window.
If MS keeps the current 4 year cycle and Sony keeps their 6-ish year cycle, MS can come out with XBOX3 (I'll throw Xbox 1080, into the ring, or they'll follow Nin's ideas and give it a "name") in 2009, and XB4 in 2013.
Sony releasing PS3 in 2006, and will release PS4 in 2012 or 2013...that's when they'll meet up again to compete head to head, near a launch window.
Then XBOX, as a whole, my DogEar'ed friend has been the MOST expensive stop gap in history. Wow.
And as far as innovation goes, it's not in Micro$oft's vocabulary. Where do we start? Windows(Macintosh)? Excel(Lotus 1-2-3)? XBOX(Sony Playstation)? PocketPC(Palm)? ZUNE(iPod)?
Microsoft is quite the innovator/replicator...
Stay the course...
FrankCrank is an idiot...
So MS is planning their next console and that means they've sold out all current Xbox owners?? You sir are a twat. You obviously have no idea. As far as innovation goes and you bogus list; how the hell was MAC the inventor of com user interface? What about Xerox Linux. Idiot. How the hell was Xbox a copy of PlayStation? What about Nintendo, Atari - what did Sony innovate? Idiot. And Zune copying iPod? So now your saying that iPod was an innovation; am I right? What an idiot. There's been MP3 players around yons before iPod - and in fact; feature wise, iPod is far from innovative. Frank is another bitter sould who somehow thinks that MS is evil and they copy everything while Apple and Sony are just brilliant ethical corps who truly care for their customers and innovate everything they do. What a joke.
MS making their own chips is big news, so how you got onto all that other shit is beyond me. MS chips means that the 95% com user market they own will no longer be intel/AMD. This could and probably will change the face of PC's and shake the industry up; although I imagine it being a long long way off.
Funny, because the letter "S" doesn't seem to be in *your* vocabulary.
"Nice. That's loyalty for you. How bought sinking those R/D dollars into the current system? "
Err... Its already been researched and designed, EVERY COMPANY IN THE WORLD starts working on their next product as soon as their current product hits the shelves.
Else what are all the R&D staff who developed their current products going to be doing? twiddling their thumbs for a couple of years on full pay?
Regarding Xbox losses, Microsoft is the most profitable company in the world, I'm sure they know what theyre doing better than any amateur armchair analyst.
"You sir are a twat" .. LOL ... I just craped my pants that was so funny
Good MS Products:
Xbox
Xbox 360
MS Office for Mac
Windows 3.1
Bad MS Products:
Windows 95
Windows 98
Windows 98se
Windows 2000
Windows ME
Windows XP
Windows Vista
Zune
Office for Windows
the list goes on and on and on and on...
2000 and XP are good products. Just because your average user is a moron and doesn't know how to configure it doesn't make it bad. It just makes it out of the box bad. win 9x on the other hand is shit.
This Chip business would be beyond Xbox 3. MS is playing dirty again.
Sinse Windows are so popular around the world, wouldnt Microsoft make their own X86 processor in the future, if they will make their chip devision bigger?
Xbox 3 chip, is just their little excuses.. their true vision is beyond that. their true vision is PC processor.
I'm surprised so many of you think M$ can make a successful chip, much less make good yields. If Motorola had issues, AMD is having issues with a decent product, why does M$ think they will have an easy time of it?
I see the beginning of the end. They are spreading themselves too thin, throwing too many products into the wind to see what sticks and losing cash along the way. That huge bank account won't stay huge forever when you're hemorrhaging.
Everyone knows you're not cool unless you're making fun of Microsoft.
The next box will be called Xbox^4-breaking the 3rd dimensional barrier...promising 4 dimensions of reality busting gameplay....it will be a 3"x3" cube with wireless everything and downloadable games only.
"it will be a 3"x3" cube"
but the power brick, hoo boy...
I wonder if MS will develop their chip business from the ground up? Seems to me that it would make more sense to develop a strategic partnership (acquire?) someone like ATI or NVIDIA who has got the IP, experience and facilities to produce chips.
AMD bought ATI so I'm guessing their out of the picture.
In other news, SGI is out bankruptcy.
Either way this will be interesting to watch.
I have this FEELING IBM will still be manufacturing the chips andway - and the chip is probablt just an itteration of an IBM CHIP.. if not some weird TRansmeta piglet child.
MS dosnt have what it takes to create a completey new chip, design and manufacture it on its own by the time the next xbox comes out - which is what? 2 years or so?
I doubt it.
I'm sure its just all design. It will take a few billion dollars to build a fab. Chip manufacturing will be done by foundries capable of thin line widths (45-60nm or lesser?) like IBM perhaps?
I think a lot of you forgot the most important key element making this scenario more than likely. The agreement between IBM and MS in the creation of their XBOX 360 chip was that MS got to keep the intellectual property for it. This means that MS is simply taking the IP they got from MS and trying to improve upon it more likely than not.
Microsoft Cell Computer?
http://geocities.com/gene_technics
This is the norm for console development. Most manufactures start designing follow up products upon release of initial products, or after a usually short vacation. This doesn't mean the 360 will only be around for 3 more years. As a matter of fact, I can't wait to see what comes of it. But think about this...
Sony designed the Cell processor, in conjuction with several other companies(IBM and Toshiba I believe), as a chip that could be integrated into any electronic devices. They want it in TVs, Receivers, Radios, Refrigerators... you name it. It is excellent at number crunching and adaptable for just about any purpose. Need more processing, add more SPEs. Need less, don't use any. It is not specialized for gaming, but adaptable for gaming. Microsoft also outsourced with IBM to design a processor for the Xbox 360. It is designed with several gaming functions in mind, namely procedural synthesis. But by the same company who designed chips for the competition. Now, with Microsoft being the software gurus that they are, and promoting XNA... I am really looking forward to see what they can come up with to design a game system designed specifically for gaming around a game development software platform.
Ok, I know you all who think MS is evil will say, "they aren't gonna care about gaming, their after the PC market". That would be a very tough nut to crack head on, you have AMD and Intel with a lock down there and tons more experience. But, how easy would it be to knock Sony off the top spot next generation, when they are designing multipurpose chips (PS4 will more than likely be made of a hybrid-Cell type chip, or just a Cell with twice as many SPEs. They have invested too much into Cell, to drop it for something altogether new), when you are designing cutting edge gaming processors.
As you all see, that market is wide open. And extremely profitable. And with lines blurring somewhat between computing and gaming, it may also be a backdoor into the PC market. If there are game consoles in every home, and consoles do most everything PCs do for much cheaper, when do people stop buying PCs and start buying consoles instead? I don't know, but I think MS wants to find out. As long as they are creating great game systems, I am all for it. Long live gaming!
I really think everyone that has posted so far fails to realize just how long it takes to design a chip. It is not just a couple of years to wip one of these things out. It takes 4-6 years to go from concept/Specs to finished product for high level designs. That is with experienced chip design teams. I am sure sony and nintendo had there chip architects start working on plans for there next chip as soon as the chips for there current systems were taped out.
What I think microsoft is doing is getting a team of chip architects together to come up with the features it wants out of its next generation product. I suppose it is possible they could even put together a spec sheet for the design they want. If they want to design this chip themselves they would still need RTL Designers, Verification teams, and Circuit Designers just to get a design ready to go to a fab. We are talking like probably 250-350 people, not including all the manufacting expertise you would need. I still think they will outsource the design to one of the big chip manufactures. Just too much money would need to be poured in if they wanted to do it themselves. Sony partnered with IBM and NEC for the cell chip, and I can tell you almost all the chip design work for cell was done at IBM.
Sure Microsoft has hardware engineers that worked on making Xbox and Xbox 360, but that is quite a bit different the designing a chip, especially want that would have to be top of the line.
You sir, are an idiot. The average user should be able to use the product easily. That's the whole point.
How about this Micro$oft...
How about you R/D your way into fixing the current problem your in.
1.XBOX hasn't been profitable since day one. You can dump as much money as you want into this jalopi, but how long can you keep it afloat? And at some point your going to have to pull the plug. The investors are going to grow very irritated with the losses and bail on the stock. Sending your beloved stock lower and lower.
2. Windows Vista isn't necessary. Who needs Vista when you've got XP? Their is no discernable difference between the two operating systems besides the graphical update. Let's be realistic about the this. This cash cow doesn't have much left to it.
3. Another version of Office? Just what everyone needs. As if I couln't write a letter in my old version of Office.
4. Zune...lol. Now that everyone and their granny has an iPod, you decide to get into the portable MP3 market? Good timing.
Guys don't feel so bad that you got burned on the 360. PS3 is right around the corner, and when they become available in truckloads, like 360 was 4 months after launch, it's going to be pretty hard to resist getting one. At that point Microsoft is going to really start hurting, because by that time, Sony will have dominated the states, Japan and Europe. And what will M$ do? Sink more money into it.
Stay the course...
The fanboy cometh..
your an idiot.
Microsoft doesnt care about making a profit on the system as much as 1) getting its foot in the door (which by the way it has done greatly) and 2)making a profit on games and accessories which it also has done. Not only that the PS3 is crap. Proprietary Blu-Ray (a format that may not even win the format wars, remember Sony Beta-Max, vs VHS, Sony lost! Sony isnt all that innovative either. Glad they finally came out with an integrated HD and online functionality. What took them so long?
> . . . literally . . .
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya.
FrankDaCrank is an idiot.
1. you must have a lot of money tied up in m$ stock to care...
2. it may not be necessary, but they have a billion customers for it already - i guess this relates back to your #1 and what investors are happy about
3.see my #2
4. reports says that 70 or 80% of the people who listen to portable music (tape plaers, cd plaer etc) dont have a dap - there is a market
by your last paragraph i can see that you're a sony fanboy. do you really think a 500 dollar game console is going to fly? be real man; people are poor, gas is up, winter is coming and so is the wii which is half(or less) than the ps3 and it comes with games.
dumbass
FrankDaCrank is obviously a Sony Fanboy. He's completely ignorant, don't even bother replying to this joke of a person.
Is it just me or have the majority of comments here at Engadget turned into some kind of /.esque flamefest since the comment system update?
Anyway, whatever comes of this I'm sure will be interesting for everybody. Microsoft has had many projects before that have completely failed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Failed_Microsoft_initiatives). But they're still rich, so obviously they know how to deal with a loss once it's really a financial failure.
I don't think either Xbox is, or will be, a failure though; they may be losing money on consoles but they're gaining a decent chunk of the market, and software sales certainly help negate their hardware losses. Not to mention Live! subscriptions that so many people are still paying for. I don't see the 360, with its media functionality and marketplace, turning into Bob anytime soon.
MS take over the world
It must be nice to be a company that can toss out the approx $1 billion it costs to start a semiconductor fab.
Hey, whose got an old XBOX still lurking around? Does Microsoft still support that hunk of junk? Oh wait, they totally dropped support on that pig. Ouch. XBOX was born November 15th, 2001. 360 was dropped November-ish 2005, that was it for XBOX. So, the original XBOX had a 4 year run....Given that fact, 360 is already a year into it's life cycle, and Microsoft is already talking about the next XBOX? Ouch...PS2 dropped October 26, 2000 and it's still outselling 360 on a month to month basis. Six years and still going. Wats up wit dat, M$ fanboys?
Sh*t, I think the Nintendo DS is outselling 360. hahahaha....
The Nintendo DS and Xbox 360 are on different levels, really. Besides, the DS is outselling everything.
Remember, support for Gamecube basically ended before Xbox.
Has anyone wondered the effects of Microsoft's [probable] 4-year life cycle? The next-gen was started/rushed by Microsoft at a time when the PS2 was supposed to thrive. Sony updating to the PS3 and will eventually cut out the prospect of a huge profit off the PS2.
If MS releases it's revamped console halfway in the PS3's life span, it puts another serious dent in Sony. Right when the PS3 hits its time for maximum profitability, the next Xbox hits and steals the shine from the PS3. Sony wouldn't release another console to contend with this Xbox since it wants to see [maximized] profits on the PS3. Two generations of console profits cut by the Xbox and Microsoft... sounds like Sony would be in a very bad place if that were to happen.
Anywho, While I do believe Microsoft will again rush to the next generation, I don't see this (the next gen announcements, etc.) happening for another 5 years.
MICROSOFT JUST DONT BUILD ANY CARS AND WE WONT HAVE ANY PROBLEMS KAY BITCH.
ps2 and gamecube and nintendo ds have been outselling xbox 360 because it is new and the rest of the systems have an established reputation and established base of many games. ps3 and xbox 360 sales are what u will have to go by. i guarantee ps3 wont sell systems as fast as the xbox 360 has about 7-8 million shipped and it hasnt been a year yet and they will probably ship another 1-2 million more by the end of the year to combat sony.
U CANT COMPARE PORTABLE TO HOME CONSOLE AND YOU CANT COMPARE PAST GENERATION TO NEW GENERATION.
Sony developed the Cell chip with IBM. For sure Xbox will never get the Cell. Is MS doing this because they are unhappy with the Power chip roadmap? While Intel and AMD are going for performance per watt, which sufficient or not, just don't have the elitist sheen of the Cell? Whichever it is, I would say MS is extremely aggressive in developing their own chip, but then again, Sony did this many years ago.
"As far as innovation goes and you bogus list; how the hell was MAC the inventor of com user interface? What about Xerox Linux. Idiot."
hahahahhahahhaha!
i like how the "fact" ends calling others idiots. that's the icing on the cake.
I had something intelligent to contribute to the conversation. But after reading 3 pages of flames, i opt not to out of dissapointment over the tempers displayed.
That's not to say I'm above flaming myself, but damn guys, really.
Frank - name 1 company that has been able to make a profit in the first year of its project. Did you know it takes Boeing 15+ years to recoup its costs on new gen plane?
Xbox is already 4Dimensional (time).
I wish you'd learn what 'literally' means, and then stop using it. Just sayin'.
And as far as Xbox3 goes - well, what did people expect, that MS was going to pay all those engineers to go drink margaritas for the next few years? Of course they're putting them to work.
"That would be a very tough nut to crack head on, you have AMD and Intel with a lock down there and tons more experience."
You forget one thing, MS makes the OS that runs on most PC's. All they have to do to enter the PC market is "Tweak" Windows so that it won't run, or barely runs on Intel/AMD chips and then the advantage goes to MS even if they're chips are poorly designed and aren't as good as AMD/Intel.