Don't ever say that Microsoft doesn't listen to its customers: Following intense backlash against the license transfer stipulations in Vista's EULA -- first we'd heard that only
one reactivation was allowed, and then it was
clarified as ten -- the software giant has decided to reword the pertinent passage, which now reads "You may uninstall the software and install it on another device for your use. You may not do so to share this license between devices." Bam, that's it -- no limits on the number of transfers and none of that silly major upgrade versus minor upgrade distinction; now you can reinstall Vista ten times a day if that's your thing. As expected, you still have to purchase multiple copies of the OS if you want to run it on more than one machine, but at least now you can tinker with your PC without worrying about running out of reactivations or having to humiliate yourself by begging a Microsoft CSR to give you just one more install. Next step: everyone bitch and moan in the comments about how Vista is too expensive, until Redmond finally relents and starts handing out copies for free when you order a value meal at your favorite fast food joint.
[Thanks, Master Devwi]
posted Nov 2nd 2006 5:32PM
Twilight: You had no point to begin with. You're posting in the same comments section as all the other "never seen a naked woman" nerds.
Earl: You're comparing Dell's gaming machine with Apple's regular machine. Not that they have a gaming machine, but you get my point. I'm sure if you compared their inspiron line it would be a bigger difference. Also it's well known on the internet that there are always coupons to lower the price on dell computers.
And I think you're being silly not allowing XP on the internet. It's not like the second you connect, "OMG WINDOWS SECURITY HOLE. INSTALLING VIRUS NOW" pops up on the screen. Once again you should install a good browser like firefox or opera, and use just a little common sense, and you're fine. If you can't be bothered to use common sense, then install a good realtime anti-virus like Nod32, and a good realtime anti-spyware program like Windows Defender, or whatever other ones are out there. This way when you do click on that install link on the warez site, or you do open that email attachment from someone you don't know, you're realtime protection prevents it from being installed.
I just wish and hope that MS would just release an Op Sys that was F$%^ing Finished when its is shipped for sale. This way there wouldn't be 5 SP's already on the OP SYS HomePage even before the the thing hits the shelves! Vista was suppose to be Win 2000 Pro, but since it wasn't ready they called it XP. It still wasn't ready by Sp 3---then just they got impatient and finally released "VISTA" changed the look and the name, location and a ton of other stuff we have grown used to seeing since WIN95 and said,"THE BEST, THE FASTEST MS OP SYSTEM REVOLUTION SINCE WIN 3.1!!!!'s
That statement is meant tobe humor. Buy does anyone else but me feel that way about MS OPSYS's? I liked 2000 pro, too bad it has trouble running programs with duel process's--forgt about quads. XP was a little better but there was security hole that reminded me like the movie "EVENT HORIZON"
Do you think they will refund the EULA Fee's I already purchased? Right!
Anth
This is nice and all, but you know Vista is just *way* too expensive. /endqueuedbitch
So from what I understand, you get infinite reinstalls, but you have to uninstall it.
So what happens if your hard drive breaks?
Are you once again screwed?
Well, I'm not sure if the license is somehow tagged [installed] or [uninstalled] but I'm sure MS isn't stupid enough to do such a thing. They know we break stuff a lot :).
Vista is way too cheap. Should have jacked up the price by 1000% so that us Vista elites can brag about being unique....just like Mac users....
This is great news. MS, if you are listening, you have just got yourself a return customer. I hope for everyone's sake, this business model sticks (MS listening and reacting to customer feedback). The optimistic in me, feels a change in MS's attitude.
"optimistic in me"
@bogphanny - that's just the chicken curry from lunch talking.
@Johan - stop and reread your comment. wow
To #2:
My copy of OS X was $80...with no restrictions on the amount of uninstalls/reinstalls, oh and no activation!
OS X FTW!
me too... we win!
surfwax: And you buy upgrades every year, and run that on overpriced apple hardware. What's your point? We all pay the same amount in the end.
@Ted B:
What overpriced hardware? Macs cost is comparable to PCs nowadays...
What "upgrades" are you talking about? The new OSX versions? I'd rather get consistent new features every year or so, than be stuck with some broken POS Win OS for 5 years (you know, the one that spends more processor time on spyware, malware and anti-virus software than the OSX)
Earl,
Please stop confusing corporations greed and users stupidity with the Operating system.
If you go out and buy Windows and install it with the basic options, it won't take more than 80mb of ram and it shouldn't be using ANY processor(I'm assuming you actually meant ram.) OS X uses a bit more than that and when you start doing stuff, OSX just gobbles up the ram. The benefit in OSX is how it manages it.
Now if you bought a HP, Dell, Sony, etc.....those companies have already signed agreements and contracts with all those spyware and virus prevention companies that just want to make money off of the users problems. If they can make the user think that "if the program doesn't get rid of the problems then it much be Microsoft's fault", well then they've probably just generated more money for themselves when the users upgrade virus protection and all that crap software that's preloaded. That's including anything by Symantec too. That anti-virus has screwed up quite a few clients computers, interferes with other apps sometimes, and just uses a ton of RAM when it's doing nothing.
You only need to do these things after a fresh install and you won't have any major problems.
1)Install AVG Free edition as your antivirus, although I think you have to buy the 64bit version but it's worth it. It stays around 5 or 6mb of ram usage and doesn't have a lot of seperate processes. It updates faster and is simpler and more efficient than Nortan too.
2)Use your routers firewall and make sure you computers on the network can share information but other unnecessary ports aren't open.
3) Don't use Bearshare, Grokster, Kazaa, etc unless you want more trojans or a crazy slow system.
Aside from a bad power supply, I haven't had a single bluescreen since I started using Windows2000 on my good PCs I build. (when I was messing with SCSI hardware-raid cards and also an incompatible ram/motherboard combo I would get random lockups though....WinXP still occasionally manages IRQs pretty bad if you've got a lot of devices.)
I'm still waiting for the $199 5-license Family Pack. That's one thing Microsoft has yet to copy from Apple, much to the detriment of us multiple-computer users.
@surfwax95:
From the OS X License Agreement:
This License allows you to install and use one copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-labeled computer at a time. This License does not allow the Apple Software to exist on more than one computer at a time.
That sounds pretty much exactly like what Microsoft has just done. I'm not getting the difference here.
I think the difference is that Apple doesn't have activation hoops for users to jump through when they install OS X. As far as I know, installing a single copy of OS X on 5 Apples would be as simple as... well installing it on 5 Apples. No catches.
I've never done this, so I could always be wrong.
Thats exactly what it means. Besides, you do you "uninstall" an OS? You just format the drive and install or re-install over top of it. They will obviously be flagging if a license is being used and will know if it being used more than once at the same point in time. All they want is for you to buy the OS for the machine you are going to be using it on.
@surfwax95
True, but how many companies were competing to make the computer for you? The problem with Apple is there's nobody that they compete with... if you're buying their OS, you've already bought their hardware. That's not to say it's not solid software and hardware, but this is also a reason that there isn't much concern about activation -- you've already bought their product.
I used to be a PC zealot. I don't see myself as one anymore. Since the advent of OS X, Apple has done a lot of good things. However, their business model smells kind of like a monopoly. I think that they make solid hardware and software, that's right for certain people. Myself, I can't get over certain things about the OS (Maximize just doesn't feel right, IMO...) and I know how to take care of a computer. So far I'm impressed with Vista (running RC1 x64 right now, in fact) and will definitely be purchasing. I'm glad to see that they're improving and taking community feedback.
By all that's holy... what is MS doing? Trying to keep customers? Now that is just silly!
Doesn't answer the virtualisation issue, so I guess Parallels (Mac OS X) and VMware (Windows) users are still out in the cold with their evil communist virtual machines?
your mom is over priced hardware...
It is a start. It is nice to know that MS is listening. I reinstall my OS at least once a month for practice.
@ Johan - They put that in there so there was no loophole with thinking you can leave it installed on the old drive or old PC when you transfer it. If you *did* leave it there, you wouldn't be able to use it, as when it called home to the activation server next, it would see that the key has been used with another install, and would prompt you that you need a key if you wanted to keep that copy in use.
Short answer - if your drive dies, you are not hosed, you can install this on another drive without uninstalling the old version, just understand that the old version will deactivate due to 1 license allower per install per key.
@ Ted B - 1996 called. They want your "informed" opinions back. :)
@ Brandon - Up until my friend's house got broken into and his G4 tower wrecked, it was running a copy of Tiger from the same DVD I'd purchased to install on my own PowerBook. In fact, it was installed on his machine first (if I remember right), and both worked without a hitch. No clue if that will change with Leopard.
Personally, I think it's a shame that Microsoft feels (and really is, I guess) so trapped into keeping legacy compatibility in their OS products, because it continues to severely hurt the quality of what they end up coming out with. The "new" MS is not the same beast as the "old" MS, and if they were given a chance to start over, to write a new OS from scratch without having to worry about keeping Windows' old, rotting, bloated, obsolete foundations in place...who knows, they might come out with an OS worth using.
As it stands now, though, it's simply the most fuss I've ever seen about a service pack. *shrug*
this also explains why in the sys req's it is a requirement to have an internet connection for vista. i presume when installing on a paid for version, then it makes you connect to the internet before finalising the instalation? still, lets faec it there are enough hackers and pirates out there to get through this, and i dare say someone with good windows setup knowledge will get through it somehow...but still M$ try....
Shunna: Oh I'm sorry, I guess Apple's website has incorrect prices. I also missed the memo that allowed me to install OSX on my custom built [and affordable] PC.
Also it's nice to know that you think everyone should "share" their operating system license. I don't think it's asking too much that a company requires you to purchase a copy for each computer. Especially when you guys go on and on about how little it costs to by OSX, you'd think your friend could have made the purchase. But right... you wouldn't be making the same complaints if Microsoft got rid of activation.
Ubuntu is software libre. You are legally entitled and encouraged to copy, share and redistribute this CD for yourself and your friends. Share the spirit of Ububtu!
i think i'll be just fine without vista, thank you.
Knowonehere: I know you Mac guys don't understand this because most people don't pirate OSX (I mean, you can only use it on Apple hardware, and it comes with every purchase), but there actually is a lot of piracy going on with Windows. It's actually possible to buy a computer without windows installed, and build your own without windows installed, so there are a lot more people who have the incentive to pirate windows. Sure there are still people pirating it to upgrade from an older version, but it's mostly just cheap asses who don't want to pay for a license on their new l33t gaming rig. Not that I think most of Microsoft's activation policies prevent internet downloading, but it still protects against casual copying.
Oh and, Micro$$$oft, ami rite?
How about giving us a Family License automatically with the purchase of any version of Vista? What I mean is, sell me Vista for the regular price and allow me to upgrade 3 or even 5 of my PCs at home to use Vista. As long as they're for the same person in the same residence, let's say. Doesn't Apple allow that with OSX? That would be really nice. That way Redmond can alleviate the Justice Department of hundreds of thousands of innocent criminals confused with the pirate peddler in the streets or even with the pirates in other countries that are selling copies for the cheap.
I'm pretty sure it was Steve Jobs who said that he'd rather someone pirate his OS than pay or pirate someone elses.
If OS X was ever released as a product you could buy and use on other systems, or if OS X compatible machines were available from retailers like HP or EMachines, I think Microsoft would need to rethink the way they do things for sure. OEMs pay a very MINOR cost for the Windows OS compared to if we buy it retail.
Apple's model doesn't make this likely, but I would appreciate that day to come where they decide to team up with a major IHV to offer OS X compatible hardware.
apeguero: It's not a bad idea, but then how would Microsoft know if the 2nd or 3rd or 4th activation is from the same household?
Droo: If Apple ever did the unthinkable and allowed the installation of OSX on other vendor's computers, they would end up changing their policy, not the other way around. They would finally be faced with real piracy problems, and not just Apple Computer owners downloading the next version.
Ted B - People already use hacked copies of OS X on non-Apple hardware, a simple torrent search can reveal this, even with patches for AMD-based hardware. Apple still makes a fair deal of money from the other software they offer, as they acquire the majority of GOOD software products on their platform. Trust me, if Microsoft was selling their OS at 100$ (in the retail channel), people would be more willing to pay for it.
You won't hear me argue about Apple's hardware pricing. However - The Mini and Macbook are often better/similarly priced than their Windows comparatives, but the Macbook Pro, iMac and Mac Pro are extremely expensive.
I also agree with other posts that ask where the 'Family license' is for the Windows OSes. We'll just stick with XP here instead. It's not like tomorrow games will no longer work on XP and I'd sooner just buy a gaming console and pocket the difference of a high-end video card and a copy of Vista, amongst other upgrades.
Microsoft's just killing the gaming industry on the Windows platform ultimately.
--D
Droo: I'm well aware of the hacked copies floating around the internet, but how many people do you know that are running this? It doesn't work on a lot of hardware, and even if it does it's a lot of work getting it installed and running with all your drivers. Trust me, I tried ;) I'm sure there would be more people willing to pay for windows if you could get it for 100 dollars (which you can on newegg but I'm sure you already know that), but we both know it wouldn't stop the cheapasses like Shunna and friends who won't support the evil M$ corporation, or who are just cheap in general.
The mini is pretty cheap, but it's also seriously underpowered and doesn't include a monitor. And the regular Macbook... yeah it's pretty well priced, I even considered it for my next laptop, but it lacked certain options that I wanted.
And yes I agree that Microsoft needs a family license like Apple sells, but there would still be Mac fans complaining in forums, and there would still be people pirating it.
I am a PC gamer, so I take offense to your PC gaming remarks :P We've all got computers at home, so is it really that much of a cost difference adding a video card to your computer rather than buying an XBOX 360? But, no offense intended, you are a Mac guy, so I guess gaming is not really possible in your case. Even though you can now install windows on a Mac, they still don't have very good video cards so PC gaming isn't in your best interest. (sorry if you aren't a Mac user, I'm just assuming)
Also, you're right for now but there will be games that require Vista sooner rather than later. At this point in time Direct X 10 is for vista only, so you won't be playing games that require that. Also Halo 2 has already been confirmed vista only.
The 100$ copies of Windows on Newegg are not retail copies. When I say Retail I mean actually going out to a Staples, etc. and buying a copy. Microsoft outright says they don't want you to go buy OEM copies for existing machines, even though they give no incentive to not do so. Same disc, same license (less support you don't even really want anyway), so I don't see why they don't just sell a support-less copy of Windows at Staples.
I am certainly not 'a Mac Guy', I am a UNIX guy and a WINDOWS guy. I've been a Windows IHV and a Unix Tech for nearly 2 decades and am a Windows User at home, amongst other things. I was that guy who bought the Geforce2 when it first came out for 400$, once upon a time. I gave up being that person eventually, it's an expensive situation.
However, my 200$ Xbox serves for a lot of gaming (and media playing). A Xbox 360 at 400$ will last probably 3 years. Show me where most of these gamers keep most of the parts of their computers for half that. The console-only games have gone up in numbers in recent years too and in some cases you can't play online unless you own the console version of the game.
By the way, my Macbook Pro has a Radeon X1600 256mb GDDR3 video card. It does XPlane (a known video-intensive hog) just fine. The Macbook and the Mini definitely should have a video card option admittedly. However, in my tour of machines available at Circuit City and Best Buy, damned if I can find a machine with a REAL 3D card. I saw some Xpress 200M, some Geforce 6150, and a whole lot of Intel GMA 950. None of these qualify as a REAL 3D card, though some qualify more than others. I mean even the 1500$ computers too. By the way, the laptop offerings aren't much better, most of those are some integrated onboard solution too. The X1600 is not the X1900, but to suggest it 'isn't a very good video card' and 'PC gaming isn't in your best interest' is ill-informed. The iMac also offers the 128 or the 256mb flavor of the X1600, your option.
Ted and Droo...wow I'm impressed. I think thats the first time I've seen a civilized discussion about windows and macs on these comments.
Now hopefully it stays that way.
haiyaaa....why u guys quarelling each other between mac os and windows... from my point of view it's just the matter of individual preference....both macz and windoze i think it depends on the user it self...mac user ofcourse would think mac is better.. vice -versa...eaach of em has diffrent ways of using.... both have advantages and disadvantages....
Droo: I know you meant retail, I was just saying it is possible to buy an OEM copy online for a much reduced price. This way you get a price closer to what Dell pays. I only paid 120 dollars for my copy of XP Pro. Really you're just paying for the box if you walk into staples.
I'd also say that most gamers upgrade their card about every 2-3 years. (note: I'm not including crazy people in the hard op forums) Not that I don't agree an Xbox 360 or PS3 is a cheap solution for someone who doesn't have a computer or doesn't want a gaming PC, but I could never replace my PC gaming with an xbox. I prefer keyboard and mouse, and the selection of PC Games. Also I like being able to have the "latest" in graphics every year.
Also I know the Macbook Pro has an X1600, but it's not exactly top of the line in graphics performance and it's not going to play games at high resolutions at high settings. I would be fine if that particular card was in the Macbook, but you'd think especially the 17 inch Macbook Pro would have a better card.
Yeah don't get me started on those bestbuy/circuit city computers. I must be jaded because when i'm looking for laptops, I'm looking online, and looking for a laptop that actually has some kind of video acceleration. Unless I'm mistaken the Macbook line is the first time Apple has ever included any kind of real video card (Radeon 9150, barf).
And if you do believe that an X1600 can deliver great gaming performance, then why are you spending 400 dollars on a video card for your computer? I just bought one of those for my sister for 115 dollars. Now if you mean an X1900, or a Geforce 7900, then yeah. But I don't think anyone who wants a gaming pc is going with a Mac, and I think generally Mac owners arn't big PC Gamers.
Sarmad: Yeah me too. I may be a windows user, but I'm more than open to discussion. I've probably responded too many times today, but sometimes I get tired of that "M$" comments I always see on engadget discussions.
Oh well it lasted for about 20 minutes =/
haha ive been dieing for someone to say apple products are over priced hardward and you happened to be the one to day it so i called your mom it... yes apple products are over priced BUT they are still the best
I use both OSX & Windows XP, OSX is far superior. I can get more things done, more easily & quickly on OSX than XP. If MS wants to get more $ from me, naw will opt for OSX at home.
Yes it's totally worth the extra money for the shiny apple case. You also get to be one of the chosen few to use Mac OSX. With this you not only a bigger penis, but you get to post in internet forums about why you are better than Windows users. Cool! :)
i love your sarcasm. butttttt os x is still better! windows=small penis os x=large penis
Rick: I respect your opinion even if I disagree
Matt: I know you are just trying to get a rise out of me, so I'll stop with you. But enjoy your delusions of grandeur.
ahh big words
Had to google that one, eh?
i thought about it
No way, this is just typical marketing, you put out a press release saying you can't do something then when it has had enough impact and time to filter through to as many people as you think will care you counter that announcement with announcement that iw will actually be allowed and bam it's the customers got something for free. Awesome MS are cool for letting me do something that I should have been able to do all along. YAY!!
Yeah man, fight the power. If only Apple had a big thinker like you working for them.
Yeah I know, my Marketing skills are totally being wasted.
Let's not make this a Mac versus PC thing when it isn't. I could be a Linux user or just as likely use Windows.
****NEWS FLASH**** There are people who own PCs and use Windows that hate Microsoft too.
Just because their quote doesn't specify how many times you can transfer the license does *NOT* mean it is unlimited! You're jumping to conclusions exactly the same way you did about the Playstation 3 controller replacement story.
Nathan: Yes but clearly you are a Mac user, which I so eloquently pointed out :P
Earl: How about every computer on the apple website that isn't a Mac Mini or a regular Macbook? $2,000 for the default configuration of a 15.4 inch Macbook Pro? No thanks. Ah and now you get into the "Windows is unsecure" debate. Well yes if you're an idiot who uses Internet Explorer and opens unknown email attachments and installs limewire and doesn't run anti-virus, then yeah you'll probably get spyware. That's the problem when you use an operating system with the most marketshare. If you're so incompetent that you can't go a day without installing spyware, maybe you shouldn't be using a computer in the first place. It's amazing how a Windows user like myself has never managed to install a virus or trojan or spyware. All it takes is a little common sense. Have you even used Windows XP SP2 before? There is nothing broken about it.
Ted B - The X1600 was a lot more money before the X1900 became available. Now it depends WHICH X1600 as they have some with slower memory, etc. Admittedly, The X1600 in the Macbook Pro is underclocked pretty severe, but there are ways around that, especially in the Windows platform.
The Macbook and Mac Mini Intel line are the first time in recent years that Apple has deviated from a real 3D card/dedicated graphics card. In most cases previous you'd see Radeons, ATI Rage, etc. whatever was the pick of the litter at the time, or pretty close to it.
My Powerbook G4 1.25ghz has a still rather capable 64mb Radeon 9700 and was new back when my ~3000$ Sony Vaio had a 16mb Radeon Mobility.
The Apple hardware isn't the problem here, not really anyway. The software isn't either. However, the cost (for the stuff with the 3D chipsets especially) and the narrow hardware choices (lack of a mid-level tower and lack of clones/non-apple hardware), absolutely, big problem. Apple's narrow view in some cases (like 3rd party mp3 players interfacing with iTunes/iTMS or iPod interfacing with 3rd party stores) is also a problem, one that resonates on the Windows platform too. Apple would rather let a product tank than open it up too, not to suggest iTunes and iPod are dying, but they probably will eventually dilute.
On the Windows platform - My concern is that Microsoft will keep trying to sell out my user experience by trying to 'protect me', more or less from their bad code or from the open source movement, etc. I hope that people continue to push back about this, loudly, as they did with TCPA and other technologies. Vista seems to suggest they intend to cocoon the user experience unless things are 'certified', etc. Not totally negate uncertified things, just obstruct their ability to interface with certain elements of the hardware and OS.
Lets just say I don't like the idea. I hope once the final product is in peoples hands that they will also be equally loud about this if thats the case. But I'll stick around on my server OS in the meantime.
Nathan -
Absolutely. However - I don't hate Microsoft as much as have a strong dislike for the things they have done and continue to do. Acquiring small companies to steal their Intellectual Property or creating competing product to try to kill them, for instance. Trying to narrow the user experience and small-time development in a ruse of 'better security', for instance.
Earl -
To a point.. The Macbook and Mac Mini Intel are pretty reasonably priced. I'd argue the Macbook Pro is expensive, especially the 17" model. I've compared pricing with a same-equipped HP and come up with a big difference in price.
Mate, I think your Macdar is out because I have never owned an Apple computer. I have PCs and they all run Windows. I work on an XP upgrade project for a large bank in Australia and am very familiar with the Windows product. By trying to out me as a Mac lover you have only shown that you have some Microsoft bias.
Just double checked to make sure nothing has changed since I was comparing prices last summer.
Dell XPS with same configuration as the Macbook Pro (same processor speed, same RAM, etc.) cost exactly $33 cheaper than the Mac. $33 for a piece of mind?
Hell, chalk that $33 up to your yealry anti-virus subscription for Win XP. Yes I have XP on my iMac, and I don't even allow XP to connect to my router/network/internet. I don't trust that crap.
Yeah, I know you can get cheaper laptops, but I like to buy from a brand I trust, like Dell. I woulda compared it to a Sony, but well... we both know Sony is more expensive for a potential house fire.
Oh and your comment about comp users "having common sense," we both know the majority of the general population are IDIOTS. Personally, I just don't want an OS I have to "take care of."
Droo: I'm sorry but the X1600 was never expensive, not even when it first came out. Also excluding some of their higher end desktops, Apple has never put good video cards in their line. As I said before, this current generation is the first time they've ever done this. Explain to me when the Radeon 9150 was ever considered a good video card. Maybe they didn't have to before Intel because people weren't playing games anyway, but that's a pretty lousy excuse. Also Sony Vaio... when have they ever been known to include top of the line hardware for a reasonable price?
I've never really made any negative comments towards the actual design of OSX either. My problem lays with their restrictive hardware policies, something that I don't think they will ever give up. I think the reason why they won't do this is simple: It's easier for them to make a stable, "top of the line" operating system when they know exactly what hardware they have in each computer. Where as Microsoft has to design an operating system for a huge array of hardware, Apple only has to support maybe the last couple generations of their stuff. I think if Apple got rid of their restrictions, they would begin to see a lot of the same problems that Windows has when it comes stability/drivers. Maybe some of you prefer this model and don't mind having to purchase Apple Hardware, but I'm the type who likes to build my own computer, or at least shop around for the best model. With apple, you get what they give you. But like I said, if they did I'd be more than willing to give OSX a fair shot.
I think maybe next time you should give some consideration to smaller laptop manufacturers. I've been really impressed with Asus over the last couple of years. They make sleek looking, fully featured, and well made notebooks for a reasonable price. I'm sure there are some others I don't know about, but I don't think I'll ever again buy a laptop you can get at Best Buy.
Nathan: My mistake. Then you are just anti Micro$oft. I get it. I'm sorry that I don't buy into your conspiracy theory.
Ted B -
The Mobility Radeon 16mb was actually top of the line at the time as far as other units I saw from companies such as IBM and the like. We're talking late 2001/early 2002, some places were offering the Geforce2Go, which had a nice subset of problems. I'm not in support of Sony's pricing, nor have ever been. The laptop was CTO, not a Retail machine, but retail can serve many rather well since you can even get a laptop with 1 or 2GB of RAM natively nowadays. They just need to learn about 3D chipsets.
I think Apple would experience the same problems as Microsoft in a smaller scale. The truth of the matter is that OS X's core is a modified UNIX (FreeBSD+Mach) core. The user community can help evolve drivers and changes. They're not allowed to evolve the GUI segments, but the core they can. Apple also links to these drivers, as well as many of the 3rd party software, plugins, etc. Microsoft doesn't compete in this manner, they intend to go it alone with a much smaller group of paid programmers instead of a combination of paid and passionate programmers. Passion generally does better than paid, look at the open source movement. This doesn't mean Appleville is a utopia, it just looks more open to me. Course, they have to be, since they have ~4% of the world PC market.
I agree with licensing the Apple OS outside of Apple hardware, even if solely packaged with a specific line of 3rd party hardware. Unfortunately, Microsoft has most of the 3rd party vendors locked up in very strong contracts in order to keep their pricing. We don't see OSless, Linux, etc. machines as result.
As for ASUS, they've definitely grown and are coming along well. I've had VERY big problems with several series of their desktop mainboards, but their laptops interest me. However, I'm required to have a Mac as part of my existing support agreements and didn't want to carry two laptops. I did look at ASUS and continue to track their released products progress. ASUSTek did build my Macbook Pro, if memory serves. :)
Droo: Okay, but you were comparing a 64MB Radeon 9700 and a Mobility 16MB. I don't think the mobile 9700 was being included in notebooks until 2003. I've also looked at IBM notebooks over the years, and they've never seemed very zealous with their inclusion of mobile video cards. Sony seems to be improving at least with their hardware, but they are still overpriced and loaded with awful drivers and software.
Good point about the whole unix/osx thing, but I'd still like to think it wouldn't make that much of a difference in the end. I know whenever I've browsed a linux forum there are thousands of posts about drivers that don't work and hardware that isn't supported. My point is that Apple would be exposed to problems that make many people frustrated with windows. And yeah Microsoft has deals with manufacturers, but if Apple decided one day that they'd like to allow the installation of OSX on competing hardware, you can bet they would fight it in court.
Also I just don't see the average computer user using linux. You think grandma can't get her windows computer to work... try getting her to install and learn how to use linux.
I've actually had a great experience with Asus motherboards (I'm running an A8N-SLI Premium right now), but they really are doing an excellent job with their notebooks. Check out their latest ensemble notebooks at proportable.com. Even though I thought I've never say it, I'm considering their tablet pc for my next notebook. The only thing it's lacking is a video card. It's down between that and the W3J. And yeah they made the macbook pro :D
The 9700 was for the 2004 models (9600 for the late 2003), correct. However, the Apple still had a 32mb Radeon Mobility 7500 2 months after I bought my Sony in their Powerbook G4. The 7500 was better than my regular Mobility 16mb, certainly. It also had Gigabit Ethernet, and clocked in at about the same price as the Sony. Did I mention my Sony didn't have WiFi? :)
The Linux people aren't a good example of the UNIX people, as Linux isn't UNIX. There is a lot of disorganization and confusion in the Linux community, especially in between Distributions (which in some cases are like entirely different OSes). I'm not a Linux fan, purely because I'm a UNIX guy and I don't like Linuxisms. The Linux folks can keep using Linux and enjoying it however. Linux has fueled an amazing endeavor when it comes to embedded platforms that UNIX and specifically BSD still haven't. There's a degree of advocacy that the Linux base has provided to remind people, "You have other options", as well.
As for the average computer user using Linux? Probably not, though a lot of people DO, more than people give credit for.
However, OS X doesn't look like Linux or Unix or operate in the same regard. Apple has shielded the user from the reality behind the scenes very well. It just means that they were able to start with something robust and evolve the tangible offering (what everyone sees and uses) in a better way. Apple also doesn't use a BIOS (They use Intel's EFI), which makes things more friendly too. Microsoft needs to cut the umbilical cord to the legacy customers, at least some.
Droo: Ok well I've think we confirmed Sony Vaio sucks. Although 2001 with wifi... that's asking a little much. Frankly I'm surprised that Apple offered wifi back then. And who the hell needed gigabit Ethernet in 2001? Maybe they could have brought the price down a few bucks.
I know there are some that use Linux, but just going by the people that I fix computers for... well they are completely inept. Double clicking a mouse is a struggle in it self for them. Asking them to, "Install Linux, learn the command prompt, and find open source software that will work with their new operating system" is not going to happen. It's amazing how computer illiterate people are. My dad still doesn't understand that Windows XP and Office 2003 are separate identities and not one-in-the-same. All they need is their AOL, their Word, and their Solitaire.
Until they remove the activation method, even the legally-owned copies will continue to annoy and punish its users. Heck, even the developer RC copy is forcing activations. I think Vista will probably be the least 3rd party development platform in the future, because Microsoft is just spending way too much time on piracy these days and inconveniencing the wrong set of people.
MAN, Vista is SO expensive!! IF only they would hand out copies of VISTA in like an Adult Happy Meal!!!
Interestingly these days a story about vista nearly always ends up with a the comments mainly talking about OSX.
:|
Ted B - They don't really need to learn the command prompt anymore. Things like Linspire and Ubuntu have made Linux come to the Desktop without the need of the command prompt. It evolves more over time to be friendly to beginner and power users. Perfect? No, course not. But it's still something and arguably has better hardware support in some cases than even the Microsoft product.
As for GbE being in the laptop, it's a great thing now that probably meant nothing then. So I'm glad I have it. :) Not having an Expresscard54 slot on my Macbook Pro on the other hand (it has Expresscard34) is kind of disappointing. I've only had the G4 for about a year and a half, I didn't buy it new. The fact that the G4 can run KisMAC (as can the Macbook Pro in the latest version) is kind of nice too.
GhostDoggy - I agree. I had a laptop in here this week for service and I had to call and activate it since it didn't like the key I used, even though it's the one on the sticker. For OEM units, especially from major vendors, I generally have to do that. They always ask me if I've installed it on other machines, etc. I don't like the idea that these things 'check' here and there either.
It's not just activation though. There's other layers too, like "Genuine Software Validation" and things like that. Microsoft needs to realize that there's 2 sets of people. Those that will steal their product, and those who will buy it or something it comes with. The people who won't be paying, won't be paying, doesn't matter what hurdles they put in place. However, if we're all going to be treated like criminals even if we acquire through legal means, why bother? Adobe has product activation for their products, but I don't feel like Adobe thinks I'm a criminal for buying their product. You can even back up your keys from within their software, if memory serves.
--D
Hi Ted Brown.
My issue isn't with platform wars or zealots of any faction as you seem to have instantly assumed. I was tring to point out that the level of debate had IMO gotten to a maddening level and completely off topic as now you're discussing security...
I wasn't bashing what any of you knew and by all means those that are still trying in this thread have good arguments on both sides.
Just chill. You'll live longer.
And the only Apple product I have ever used was an Apple IIe. Your assumption that I was taking sides, especially the apple side couldn't have been more self-obsessed.
Carry on, children. Carry on.
The Macbook Pro, is NOT Apple's regular machine... The Macbook probably should be considered their regular laptop. That's why I compared it to the XPS...
Why would I allow XP, a buggy Win OS to connect to the internet? all I have to do is hit a couple of hot keys, and... BAM! I am on the much more secure, spy-ware free!! Mac OSX. It's so easy and none of them messy ass programs to fool with. Oh and I have not used IE since maybe 2001, so a "good" webbrowser is not the issue. It is needing to instal such and such program, so when I do connect to the internet I won't get any spyware, malware, trojans, etc...
When with my OSX, I have ZERO concern about this, and don't need any 3rd party software running at all times, cause Apple got it right the first time around.
After all this, I'm appalled that nobody's mentioned yet the poor pirates still getting screwed.
VISTA IS soooo expensive
It should be $9.95
If only vista installed fast enough to be done 10 times a day, it took 3.5 hours for vista beta2 to install, gone are the days I can reload a windows and install all the needed software in less than 3 hours, not that it means much to most users anyway
i wish osx was compatible with pc hardware
i wish windows didn't have all this activation crap
i wish linux worked with my wireless card
i wish....