Don't ever say that Microsoft doesn't listen to its customers: Following intense backlash against the license transfer stipulations in Vista's EULA -- first we'd heard that only
one reactivation was allowed, and then it was
clarified as ten -- the software giant has decided to reword the pertinent passage, which now reads "You may uninstall the software and install it on another device for your use. You may not do so to share this license between devices." Bam, that's it -- no limits on the number of transfers and none of that silly major upgrade versus minor upgrade distinction; now you can reinstall Vista ten times a day if that's your thing. As expected, you still have to purchase multiple copies of the OS if you want to run it on more than one machine, but at least now you can tinker with your PC without worrying about running out of reactivations or having to humiliate yourself by begging a Microsoft CSR to give you just one more install. Next step: everyone bitch and moan in the comments about how Vista is too expensive, until Redmond finally relents and starts handing out copies for free when you order a value meal at your favorite fast food joint.
[Thanks, Master Devwi]
posted November 2nd 2006 5:32PM
Nathan: Yes but clearly you are a Mac user, which I so eloquently pointed out :P
Earl: How about every computer on the apple website that isn't a Mac Mini or a regular Macbook? $2,000 for the default configuration of a 15.4 inch Macbook Pro? No thanks. Ah and now you get into the "Windows is unsecure" debate. Well yes if you're an idiot who uses Internet Explorer and opens unknown email attachments and installs limewire and doesn't run anti-virus, then yeah you'll probably get spyware. That's the problem when you use an operating system with the most marketshare. If you're so incompetent that you can't go a day without installing spyware, maybe you shouldn't be using a computer in the first place. It's amazing how a Windows user like myself has never managed to install a virus or trojan or spyware. All it takes is a little common sense. Have you even used Windows XP SP2 before? There is nothing broken about it.
Ted B - The X1600 was a lot more money before the X1900 became available. Now it depends WHICH X1600 as they have some with slower memory, etc. Admittedly, The X1600 in the Macbook Pro is underclocked pretty severe, but there are ways around that, especially in the Windows platform.
The Macbook and Mac Mini Intel line are the first time in recent years that Apple has deviated from a real 3D card/dedicated graphics card. In most cases previous you'd see Radeons, ATI Rage, etc. whatever was the pick of the litter at the time, or pretty close to it.
My Powerbook G4 1.25ghz has a still rather capable 64mb Radeon 9700 and was new back when my ~3000$ Sony Vaio had a 16mb Radeon Mobility.
The Apple hardware isn't the problem here, not really anyway. The software isn't either. However, the cost (for the stuff with the 3D chipsets especially) and the narrow hardware choices (lack of a mid-level tower and lack of clones/non-apple hardware), absolutely, big problem. Apple's narrow view in some cases (like 3rd party mp3 players interfacing with iTunes/iTMS or iPod interfacing with 3rd party stores) is also a problem, one that resonates on the Windows platform too. Apple would rather let a product tank than open it up too, not to suggest iTunes and iPod are dying, but they probably will eventually dilute.
On the Windows platform - My concern is that Microsoft will keep trying to sell out my user experience by trying to 'protect me', more or less from their bad code or from the open source movement, etc. I hope that people continue to push back about this, loudly, as they did with TCPA and other technologies. Vista seems to suggest they intend to cocoon the user experience unless things are 'certified', etc. Not totally negate uncertified things, just obstruct their ability to interface with certain elements of the hardware and OS.
Lets just say I don't like the idea. I hope once the final product is in peoples hands that they will also be equally loud about this if thats the case. But I'll stick around on my server OS in the meantime.
Nathan -
Absolutely. However - I don't hate Microsoft as much as have a strong dislike for the things they have done and continue to do. Acquiring small companies to steal their Intellectual Property or creating competing product to try to kill them, for instance. Trying to narrow the user experience and small-time development in a ruse of 'better security', for instance.
Earl -
To a point.. The Macbook and Mac Mini Intel are pretty reasonably priced. I'd argue the Macbook Pro is expensive, especially the 17" model. I've compared pricing with a same-equipped HP and come up with a big difference in price.
Mate, I think your Macdar is out because I have never owned an Apple computer. I have PCs and they all run Windows. I work on an XP upgrade project for a large bank in Australia and am very familiar with the Windows product. By trying to out me as a Mac lover you have only shown that you have some Microsoft bias.
Just double checked to make sure nothing has changed since I was comparing prices last summer.
Dell XPS with same configuration as the Macbook Pro (same processor speed, same RAM, etc.) cost exactly $33 cheaper than the Mac. $33 for a piece of mind?
Hell, chalk that $33 up to your yealry anti-virus subscription for Win XP. Yes I have XP on my iMac, and I don't even allow XP to connect to my router/network/internet. I don't trust that crap.
Yeah, I know you can get cheaper laptops, but I like to buy from a brand I trust, like Dell. I woulda compared it to a Sony, but well... we both know Sony is more expensive for a potential house fire.
Oh and your comment about comp users "having common sense," we both know the majority of the general population are IDIOTS. Personally, I just don't want an OS I have to "take care of."
Droo: I'm sorry but the X1600 was never expensive, not even when it first came out. Also excluding some of their higher end desktops, Apple has never put good video cards in their line. As I said before, this current generation is the first time they've ever done this. Explain to me when the Radeon 9150 was ever considered a good video card. Maybe they didn't have to before Intel because people weren't playing games anyway, but that's a pretty lousy excuse. Also Sony Vaio... when have they ever been known to include top of the line hardware for a reasonable price?
I've never really made any negative comments towards the actual design of OSX either. My problem lays with their restrictive hardware policies, something that I don't think they will ever give up. I think the reason why they won't do this is simple: It's easier for them to make a stable, "top of the line" operating system when they know exactly what hardware they have in each computer. Where as Microsoft has to design an operating system for a huge array of hardware, Apple only has to support maybe the last couple generations of their stuff. I think if Apple got rid of their restrictions, they would begin to see a lot of the same problems that Windows has when it comes stability/drivers. Maybe some of you prefer this model and don't mind having to purchase Apple Hardware, but I'm the type who likes to build my own computer, or at least shop around for the best model. With apple, you get what they give you. But like I said, if they did I'd be more than willing to give OSX a fair shot.
I think maybe next time you should give some consideration to smaller laptop manufacturers. I've been really impressed with Asus over the last couple of years. They make sleek looking, fully featured, and well made notebooks for a reasonable price. I'm sure there are some others I don't know about, but I don't think I'll ever again buy a laptop you can get at Best Buy.
Nathan: My mistake. Then you are just anti Micro$oft. I get it. I'm sorry that I don't buy into your conspiracy theory.
Ted B -
The Mobility Radeon 16mb was actually top of the line at the time as far as other units I saw from companies such as IBM and the like. We're talking late 2001/early 2002, some places were offering the Geforce2Go, which had a nice subset of problems. I'm not in support of Sony's pricing, nor have ever been. The laptop was CTO, not a Retail machine, but retail can serve many rather well since you can even get a laptop with 1 or 2GB of RAM natively nowadays. They just need to learn about 3D chipsets.
I think Apple would experience the same problems as Microsoft in a smaller scale. The truth of the matter is that OS X's core is a modified UNIX (FreeBSD+Mach) core. The user community can help evolve drivers and changes. They're not allowed to evolve the GUI segments, but the core they can. Apple also links to these drivers, as well as many of the 3rd party software, plugins, etc. Microsoft doesn't compete in this manner, they intend to go it alone with a much smaller group of paid programmers instead of a combination of paid and passionate programmers. Passion generally does better than paid, look at the open source movement. This doesn't mean Appleville is a utopia, it just looks more open to me. Course, they have to be, since they have ~4% of the world PC market.
I agree with licensing the Apple OS outside of Apple hardware, even if solely packaged with a specific line of 3rd party hardware. Unfortunately, Microsoft has most of the 3rd party vendors locked up in very strong contracts in order to keep their pricing. We don't see OSless, Linux, etc. machines as result.
As for ASUS, they've definitely grown and are coming along well. I've had VERY big problems with several series of their desktop mainboards, but their laptops interest me. However, I'm required to have a Mac as part of my existing support agreements and didn't want to carry two laptops. I did look at ASUS and continue to track their released products progress. ASUSTek did build my Macbook Pro, if memory serves. :)
Droo: Okay, but you were comparing a 64MB Radeon 9700 and a Mobility 16MB. I don't think the mobile 9700 was being included in notebooks until 2003. I've also looked at IBM notebooks over the years, and they've never seemed very zealous with their inclusion of mobile video cards. Sony seems to be improving at least with their hardware, but they are still overpriced and loaded with awful drivers and software.
Good point about the whole unix/osx thing, but I'd still like to think it wouldn't make that much of a difference in the end. I know whenever I've browsed a linux forum there are thousands of posts about drivers that don't work and hardware that isn't supported. My point is that Apple would be exposed to problems that make many people frustrated with windows. And yeah Microsoft has deals with manufacturers, but if Apple decided one day that they'd like to allow the installation of OSX on competing hardware, you can bet they would fight it in court.
Also I just don't see the average computer user using linux. You think grandma can't get her windows computer to work... try getting her to install and learn how to use linux.
I've actually had a great experience with Asus motherboards (I'm running an A8N-SLI Premium right now), but they really are doing an excellent job with their notebooks. Check out their latest ensemble notebooks at proportable.com. Even though I thought I've never say it, I'm considering their tablet pc for my next notebook. The only thing it's lacking is a video card. It's down between that and the W3J. And yeah they made the macbook pro :D
The 9700 was for the 2004 models (9600 for the late 2003), correct. However, the Apple still had a 32mb Radeon Mobility 7500 2 months after I bought my Sony in their Powerbook G4. The 7500 was better than my regular Mobility 16mb, certainly. It also had Gigabit Ethernet, and clocked in at about the same price as the Sony. Did I mention my Sony didn't have WiFi? :)
The Linux people aren't a good example of the UNIX people, as Linux isn't UNIX. There is a lot of disorganization and confusion in the Linux community, especially in between Distributions (which in some cases are like entirely different OSes). I'm not a Linux fan, purely because I'm a UNIX guy and I don't like Linuxisms. The Linux folks can keep using Linux and enjoying it however. Linux has fueled an amazing endeavor when it comes to embedded platforms that UNIX and specifically BSD still haven't. There's a degree of advocacy that the Linux base has provided to remind people, "You have other options", as well.
As for the average computer user using Linux? Probably not, though a lot of people DO, more than people give credit for.
However, OS X doesn't look like Linux or Unix or operate in the same regard. Apple has shielded the user from the reality behind the scenes very well. It just means that they were able to start with something robust and evolve the tangible offering (what everyone sees and uses) in a better way. Apple also doesn't use a BIOS (They use Intel's EFI), which makes things more friendly too. Microsoft needs to cut the umbilical cord to the legacy customers, at least some.
Droo: Ok well I've think we confirmed Sony Vaio sucks. Although 2001 with wifi... that's asking a little much. Frankly I'm surprised that Apple offered wifi back then. And who the hell needed gigabit Ethernet in 2001? Maybe they could have brought the price down a few bucks.
I know there are some that use Linux, but just going by the people that I fix computers for... well they are completely inept. Double clicking a mouse is a struggle in it self for them. Asking them to, "Install Linux, learn the command prompt, and find open source software that will work with their new operating system" is not going to happen. It's amazing how computer illiterate people are. My dad still doesn't understand that Windows XP and Office 2003 are separate identities and not one-in-the-same. All they need is their AOL, their Word, and their Solitaire.
Until they remove the activation method, even the legally-owned copies will continue to annoy and punish its users. Heck, even the developer RC copy is forcing activations. I think Vista will probably be the least 3rd party development platform in the future, because Microsoft is just spending way too much time on piracy these days and inconveniencing the wrong set of people.
MAN, Vista is SO expensive!! IF only they would hand out copies of VISTA in like an Adult Happy Meal!!!
Interestingly these days a story about vista nearly always ends up with a the comments mainly talking about OSX.
:|
Ted B - They don't really need to learn the command prompt anymore. Things like Linspire and Ubuntu have made Linux come to the Desktop without the need of the command prompt. It evolves more over time to be friendly to beginner and power users. Perfect? No, course not. But it's still something and arguably has better hardware support in some cases than even the Microsoft product.
As for GbE being in the laptop, it's a great thing now that probably meant nothing then. So I'm glad I have it. :) Not having an Expresscard54 slot on my Macbook Pro on the other hand (it has Expresscard34) is kind of disappointing. I've only had the G4 for about a year and a half, I didn't buy it new. The fact that the G4 can run KisMAC (as can the Macbook Pro in the latest version) is kind of nice too.
GhostDoggy - I agree. I had a laptop in here this week for service and I had to call and activate it since it didn't like the key I used, even though it's the one on the sticker. For OEM units, especially from major vendors, I generally have to do that. They always ask me if I've installed it on other machines, etc. I don't like the idea that these things 'check' here and there either.
It's not just activation though. There's other layers too, like "Genuine Software Validation" and things like that. Microsoft needs to realize that there's 2 sets of people. Those that will steal their product, and those who will buy it or something it comes with. The people who won't be paying, won't be paying, doesn't matter what hurdles they put in place. However, if we're all going to be treated like criminals even if we acquire through legal means, why bother? Adobe has product activation for their products, but I don't feel like Adobe thinks I'm a criminal for buying their product. You can even back up your keys from within their software, if memory serves.
--D
Hi Ted Brown.
My issue isn't with platform wars or zealots of any faction as you seem to have instantly assumed. I was tring to point out that the level of debate had IMO gotten to a maddening level and completely off topic as now you're discussing security...
I wasn't bashing what any of you knew and by all means those that are still trying in this thread have good arguments on both sides.
Just chill. You'll live longer.
And the only Apple product I have ever used was an Apple IIe. Your assumption that I was taking sides, especially the apple side couldn't have been more self-obsessed.
Carry on, children. Carry on.
The Macbook Pro, is NOT Apple's regular machine... The Macbook probably should be considered their regular laptop. That's why I compared it to the XPS...
Why would I allow XP, a buggy Win OS to connect to the internet? all I have to do is hit a couple of hot keys, and... BAM! I am on the much more secure, spy-ware free!! Mac OSX. It's so easy and none of them messy ass programs to fool with. Oh and I have not used IE since maybe 2001, so a "good" webbrowser is not the issue. It is needing to instal such and such program, so when I do connect to the internet I won't get any spyware, malware, trojans, etc...
When with my OSX, I have ZERO concern about this, and don't need any 3rd party software running at all times, cause Apple got it right the first time around.
After all this, I'm appalled that nobody's mentioned yet the poor pirates still getting screwed.
VISTA IS soooo expensive
It should be $9.95
If only vista installed fast enough to be done 10 times a day, it took 3.5 hours for vista beta2 to install, gone are the days I can reload a windows and install all the needed software in less than 3 hours, not that it means much to most users anyway
i wish osx was compatible with pc hardware
i wish windows didn't have all this activation crap
i wish linux worked with my wireless card
i wish....