ISO images dumped from PS3 Blu-ray discs via Linux

It's starting to look like the greatest enemy to PS3 "security" is the PS3 itself. Thanks to that handy OS named Linux, which conveniently comes prepped for the console, we're already seeing some pretty nifty things being done with the PS3, and now it's being put to good use to siphon data off of those nifty Blu-ray discs. So far nothing more than a straight transfer has been achieved, but it appears the PS3 game file structure is similar to that of the PSP. We're not sure how well on the way this puts us towards the ability to create "backup" discs of PS3 games, but at least it's a start. Oh, and a quick note to the Xbox 360 fanboys: Madden '07 barely uses 7GB of that expansive storage medium of Sony's, so we wouldn't worry about missing out on content with your dual-layer DVDs just yet.

[Thanks, Tam]

[Digitalosh @ Nov 27th 2006 7:46PM]

No. Oh wait. I just replied, didnt I...

[Moneyman @ Nov 27th 2006 7:12PM]

So the added cost of blueray is useless..

[mohammed A. Fadil @ Dec 29th 2007 7:11AM]

For your knowledge, the expected size for the upcoming games range from 20 to 40 GB so don't be very happy with the double layer DVD ;)

[Joe C @ Nov 27th 2006 7:17PM]

One game and its not even an exclusive. Way not to be bias Miller, how about the Resistance Fall of Man and how it supposedly was all padding and then the facts came out that the padding was actually only 450 mbs.

[ceaseoleo @ Nov 27th 2006 9:52PM]

It was 450 mb of padding per section .. Not sure of how many sections. Besides a game that takes 20 + gigs should be the best game ever.. but comes no where close

[Jon @ Nov 27th 2006 7:20PM]

The necessity of a larger format size will not be seen for 3-4 more years if at all. Blu-Ray is necessarry for HD movies...but not gaming. Not yet at least.

[JooNkeN @ Nov 27th 2006 7:20PM]

woot! since the ps3 firmware highly resembles that of the PSP, I think you'll be able to play homebrew iso loaders on the PS3 as you do on the PSP. rawr! =)

[Jon @ Nov 27th 2006 7:24PM]

Gears of War fits easily on one Dual Layer DVD. Why can't Resistance or any other title for that matter? With the exeption of lots of Full Motion Video files...Blu-Ray is unecessarry for gaming. This is reinforced by new Titles on the 360 that will continue to use just 1 dual layer DVD even though the Graphics and such are at least on par if not better then the PS3.

[Z @ Nov 27th 2006 7:48PM]

Gears of War is a game released only a year after launch and it nearly takes up the entire DVD9, same with Oblivion. A football game takes up 7 out of 8GB, 87.5% of the disc.

There's still 4 years left in the console's life. Don't you Xbox 360 owners expect anything better? It's going to be difficult without getting into multidisc games.

The PlayStation 2 when at a year after release, most games were still on CDs, but now there are almost no PS2 games that come on DVD.

Microsoft's claims that DVD9 is enough are just lies. It will cause problems in the future. Large or even medium-sized games will be forced onto multiple disks or will sloppily have features taken away to fit.

[Rick wilson @ Nov 27th 2006 7:32PM]

ACK! geeze, why would the very first set of games completely use the whole next gen technology? They wouldn't. As they build games, they'll realize better ways to do things, remember, they were building these titles on beta hardware. Look for games one year from now, like we have with Microsoft, and see the potential then.

[CarpeD1em500 @ Nov 27th 2006 7:38PM]

Uh, who said the PS3 firmware "resembles" the psp's?

Or are you assuming this because it's GUI is similar...


Thats what I thought.

I agree with Jon and Rick btw. We haven't seen the full potential of Blu-ray yet, obviously, but with 360 games looking the way they do, I can't see it getting THAT much better. Oh well, we shall see.

[kev @ Nov 29th 2006 1:37PM]

Guys, has any one noticed how engadget is a wanna be tech reviewer. OMg. Its all cynism, its all bash. Then we find out they cant even get facts right. See this article, see Treo delay etc, etc. Just give us some facts. Dont take money from Vendors to hawk thier crap. Let us decide what we like, tally comments and reader opinion and stay the F$$%^K out of giving opinions because you cant do it well enough.
Blah.

[nohoy @ Nov 28th 2006 10:12PM]

"but it appears the PS3 game file structure is similar to that of the PSP"

I'm gonna make a crazy stab and say I think he got this idea from the article... yea... pretty sure.

Who said anything about the GUI?

[Andrew Fong @ Nov 27th 2006 8:51PM]

Not necessarily. As the generation goes on, developers code better and therefore waste less space. Case in point: MechAssault 2 actually takes up less space than MechAssault. There's also a lot of buzz around new techniques like procedural synthesis. Just take a look at Roboblitz coming out on Steam and XBLA. It uses the Unreal 3 engine and looks amazing considering its only 50 MB in size.

See http://www.gamesfirst.com/?id=1132 for reference.

Admittedly, some two disc games could potentially be a problem. Online co-op would be much harder to pull off it two people had to switch discs. But what I think this means is that 360 developers will simply have to be more careful in coding, and that Microsoft will have to be more diligent in helping them keep file sizes small (see XNA).

One other thing to keep in mind is that it's getting expensive to produce a game. It's easy to create more than 17GB of padding (or FMVs), but to produce 9GB of meaningful compressed content, you're going to need a lot of people working with a large budget. If the PS3 fails to gain the huge marketshare the PS2 did, it's going to be very hard for developers to recoup their losses without porting to the 360 (and somehow dealing with the DVD-9 limits).

[x2 @ Nov 27th 2006 7:51PM]

If you dropped the FMV from Resistance, it would fit on a DVD as well.

The more interesting thing about this story is that Linux is being used to possibly break into games or at least gain futher insight. How long before people are able to copy games or movies off of blu-ray via the PS3?

[Dasgooch @ Nov 27th 2006 7:51PM]

Damn CarpeD1em500 nobody said firmware anywhere. What he did say was file structure. Looks like someone needs to cut back on the Sony flavored Kool-Aid

[humpty @ Nov 27th 2006 7:54PM]

Blue Dragon is 3 DVD9s... yea, lots of FMV, but, some genres thats called for, it doesnt make any less legitimate.

[Jon @ Nov 27th 2006 7:54PM]

Even if your right Z...It's pretty clear that consumers don't want to be forced to pay $200 extra for something that is not necessarry. If all 360 games go to 2 disc in 2 years...who cares? The game will still be fun...just half way through you will have to use the 2nd disc. But 360 owners won't have to pay $200 extra.

Blu-Ray on the PS3 is just Sony's ploy to shove the format needlessly down everyones throats...much like the failed UMD format.

[Matt @ Nov 27th 2006 7:57PM]

Damn Straight.

[MikeL @ Nov 27th 2006 10:22PM]

How much is the MS HD-Drive again? I'm pretty certain it's $200. Do you think developers will refuse to support it because it's optional?

[Dasgooch @ Nov 27th 2006 8:06PM]

Getting linux on the Xbox 1 was the key to hacking it so successfully. Its only a matter of time for this one since Sony has thoughtfully enabled them to do that out of the box. Way to go!

[Veritas II @ Nov 27th 2006 8:09PM]

The market, not your rhetoric, will decide. No one is being forced to pay more, they choose to or not to. 360 owners won't have to, but they'll also be saddled with an old format for the life of their console. PS3 owners will choose to pay now for more capacity later. The choice that MS fans tout only applies to those who don't want wireless or HD playback. To those who do, it's more expensive, and therefore prohibitive. Really, sticking with DVD is just MS's ploy to grab market share with by using cheaper components.

For the record, I own both.

[v1m @ Nov 28th 2006 3:13AM]

"The market, not your rhetoric, will decide."

The "market" is many things, not all of them benign. Most gamers haven't a clue about the general economy, but a harsh downturn will soon determine what they're playing and on what system.

In recessions, people buy cheap. Sony isn't in any position to lower the PS3 soon. Microsoft, however, still has plenty of room to cut the 360 price. Knowing that destroying the PS3's first year could be lethal to a staggering Sony, M$ will be gunning...

[RogueStorm @ Nov 27th 2006 8:13PM]

Downloading games + large removable hard drive FTMFW!

Yeah, expect to see Microsoft sell larger hard drives and move to digital distribution toward the end of the 360's life cycle. It reduces their operational overhead (fewer warehouses, no disc publishing, etc.) and they will turn a profit on hard drives as well. The video service is nothing more than a test bed for a full-on digital distribution system that will put their media control and server systems to the test. I bet you'll see a digitally distributed game before next Christmas from Microsoft that is a full-on game (not Arcade that is). There's a reason Microsoft made the hard drive removable this time and I'm betting that drive failure wasn't the primary reason.

[Gary T @ Nov 27th 2006 8:14PM]

HAHA Not good for Sony. :D ROFL

[evilfixx @ Nov 27th 2006 8:30PM]

Y'all have to remember, this is the Engadget way... blast the hell out of a system only a week old especially if it's Sony... I think that the little "contributors" to this blast-a-thon will be eating crow next year...

[c.Lake @ Apr 4th 2007 1:36AM]

Whatever pretty fantasies you need to get you through the day...

[patrick @ Nov 27th 2006 8:39PM]

This is interesting, this is how the whole PSP iso thing started they were able to rip the game and a few months later they found a way to load the games off the memory stick. Although I don't support piracy I respect the time and effort put into things like this. It would be nice to copy my games to a large hard drive to make them load faster and save my games from getting screwed up or accidentally eaten by the PS3. Also once the games begin to utilize the full capacity of the disc I don't see too many people willing to download a 40gb game from the net. It will most likely turn into one of those Rent, Rip, and Return situations.

[Ross @ Nov 27th 2006 8:40PM]

You mean 360 fanboys read Engadget? Who'd have guessed?

[Andir3.0 @ Nov 28th 2006 12:20AM]

It really is a shame that you guys keep quoting this procedural texture generation. I have a serious question for you. Have you ever decompressed a large zip file or generated random scenes? This is not something that can be done on spare CPU cycles. So you trade out loading for "Generating terrain...". Your still going to wait for loading, then generating. I'd rather have more space for more content than have to wait for the level to load, then wait longer for the generators. Your all holding onto dated technology. Let it go.

Yes, I know this for a fact. I know it's old, tired and cliche, but I do write games. I have a little insight on this type of thing. Procedural texture generation is not the new magic wand to make everything work better, cheaper and more reliable. That's what developers spend all their time on instead of content. If we didn't have to come up with the algorithms and could concentrate on content, AI, etc. for the games, you might actually get more enjoyment out of it than the same old tired scripted BS we spew out on a daily basis. I call it spewing data because we don't have time to work on anything more interesting.

...and XNA is not that magic wand either. Think of XNA like the Unreal Engine, because that's basically what it does. It doesn't decrease the size of the game anymore than .NET decreased the size of programs. It's smoke and mirrors. The Byte-Code generated get's compiled on demand at runtime. You don't think that might take some time to do as well? It's quite a memory hog too. Check out your task manager one day when your running one of them .NET programs. It takes away some of the "freedoms" we use for tricks in DirectX and handles it behind the scenes. This is good for Microsoft because it kicks out nothing but dumb coders that only know how to write code on Microsoft XNA systems.

If I sound a little disgruntled. I am. It sickens me to see what some of these "programmers" (if I can even call them that) do to make games. They are absolutely horrid when it comes to efficiency and you can all thank your friend Microsoft for trying to corner the gaming industry like they did with DirectX. As a gamer and a developer it makes me sick. Even worse that you all are falling right in line. Welcome to Phase 2.5 of the Microsoft takeover. Feel free to keep dumping your cash into MS banks. They'll be happy the next time your forced to pay out the rear because there's no other choice.

[DRB @ Nov 27th 2006 9:09PM]

Fong, you're the man! I'm so sick of stupid fanboy wars! I was just about to post when I read your words of wisdom (or, at least, words that lack stupidity :)

Ladies and pre-pubescent boys, learn from Sir Fong, here, on how to write meaningful posts!

[mct75 @ Nov 27th 2006 9:12PM]

dont forget .kkrieger

96k of fps goodness

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.kkrieger

[Andir3.0 @ Nov 28th 2006 12:22AM]

Yeah, don't forget how long it takes .kkrieger to generate those textures when it starts up too. Again, your just trading load time for generation time.

[last @ Nov 27th 2006 9:28PM]

someones paying engadget off...:P

I agree with Z..
DVD9 will last about..hmm 1 more year..then they will go onto 2 DVD9's then 3... do you know why? Becuase they have to recopy some of that material onto the 2nd and 3rd dvd9.. whats of space and money...

So you Xbox 360 fanboys plan to buy a new console in 2 years? Fine by me its ur money...i'd rather spend $500 next year and get a console that will last me 5+ years... External HD DVD with what 9 movies? yaaa veery useful... while i can BURN my own 50 GB BR DVD RIGHT NOW.

[ZAch Silk @ Nov 27th 2006 9:52PM]

bring on the HD games!!! uber realistic gfx!!!

now i just need a PS3. oh well...

next, homebrew!!!!

[Tim Burns @ Nov 27th 2006 9:55PM]

There are PC Blu-Ray drives, as well as PC Blu-Ray recorders, Blu-Ray isn't a proprietary format and was never meant as a copy protection device. This isn't exactly news now, is it?

It took no time for every console's media to get ripped anyway, even those with proprietary formats like GD-Rom (which, interestingly enough, was ripped using the Dreamcast itself).

[Rollins @ Nov 28th 2006 2:11AM]

The HD-DVD drive isn't for games, it's purely for playing movies. That's been stated at least 36,000 times since it was announced. So, no, 360 developers won't support it. Think before you post.

[_man1c_ @ Nov 27th 2006 10:34PM]

@Fong. nice read on the linky. i can see it where certain game devs. might have problems with the format if theyre not careful how they program, and how blu-ray can be little more foregiving to game devs. on how they program.

[CarpeD1em500 @ Nov 27th 2006 11:10PM]

Uh...someone did say "firmware"

Read the comments before you reply to mine buddy....

[Wellinformed @ Nov 27th 2006 11:13PM]

I guess the 360 fanboys don't think about multiple things going on in one game. The Xbox 360 has game slow down on Sonic and 1 min. load times after each 2-5 min. levels. I think 8 processors and partial hard drive storage would prevent that.

As far as space is concerned, I believe someone said we will never need more than 640KB...then it was 500MB...then it was 1GB...etc

Stop limiting creativity! If you build it, they will come.

[dynamius @ Nov 27th 2006 11:24PM]

meh...

blu-ray and hd-dvd is only good for hi-def video. i dont want no stinkin' video in my games! i wanna see cutscenes rendered real-time in 3D using in-game assets. i find it a helluva lot more immersing than having to suddenly jump from real-time to pre-rendered then back to real-time. we now have 3d tech that can render some amazing stuff in real-time, why not use it?

oh and about the statement about Oblivion fitting on a dual layer dvd-9 disc, that's not really true. it fits on a single layer 4.7gb dvd :) it's only ~4.2gb in size.

yeah... dvd-9 will definitely suffice this generation unless the developers have an FMV fetish. they need to start making in-game real-time cutscenes.

[donlphi @ Nov 27th 2006 11:54PM]

It's funny how quickly xbox 360 owners say how expensive a Playstation 3 is considering most ps2 owners are still using their PS2s. I bought my PS2 in October, 2 days after it came out, and it cost me$300 at the time. I definitely got my nearly 7 years (by the time I am able to get my PS3) worth of gaming for that price. It cost me about $42 a year to own a PS2 and no real problems (no 2nd or 3rd generation machine needed).

Xbox came out a year and 1 month later (november 2001) costing the same price as a PS2 back in 2000 $300. Let's not forget the online services that cost extra. Either way about $75 a year to use the machine before the new one comes out.

Xbox 360 comes out in late November in 2005 at the price tag of $400+tax. If you want the HD-DVD player you are paying an additional $200.

Total cost of Xbox 360 w/HD-DVD is $600.

This is the same price as the PS3 with a 60GB Hard Drive and Blu-Ray and the Sony seal of quality.

The bottom line is. People pay thousands of dollars (per year) for fancy dinners, new cars, movies, computers, and gambling. Does it really matter how much it costs? Unless you buy something new every week, it is only going to cost you about $100 a year to own a PS3 or an XBox 360, maybe a little more or less depending how fast you swap and how well you take care of your "stuff".

IMPO... Both machines seem pretty nice, but I would never buy a Microsoft product. Ever since I heard about the Xbox Live SERVICE FEES and the ever-dorky ZUNE. I don't pay anything to play online on my PS2, but I'm sure I'll have to since Micro$oft has set the new standard for everybody. I also have to say any company that would pay record companies money everytime they sell a product is just itching for problems.

Somebody get me a Wii...

Have fun...

[silentbob343 @ Nov 28th 2006 12:56AM]

A disc dump is nothing and this is making the front page of engadget is sad. While I'm sure games and movies will one day be copied, nothing is perfect; this doesn't mean that it's around the corner. BD movies also have a nice protection scheme called AACS that will provide a challenge on its own.

Many of you are overlooking a benefit of using BD. Streamline manufacturing, it helps eliminate the need for multiple discs for the various regions. One BD can contain the files needed for the various regions, etc.

[_man1c_ @ Nov 28th 2006 1:03AM]

i wonder if we'll see a Steam like product from MS for the pc. LIVEPC or something like that. especially with the cross-platform they are touting about.

[Phil @ Nov 28th 2006 2:12AM]

Linux is awesome on the PS3. Sony shouldn't be blamed for allowing it, but they should be blamed for poor design IF it turns out they didn't put enough security into the system to protect content developers, but that remains to be seen.

However, the XBox360 will not be left out of HD game storage. If by holiday season 2007 there are great games that need more than DVD9 space then Microsoft will be able to sell the HD add-on for $100 by then, and they will probably do a game+HDdrive bundle for $150 for the first title that needs it. It will prove their brilliant strategy: release a console a year ahead of the competition and give people a great upgrade to spend their holiday dollars on in 2007.

They are both great consoles. I own neither yet, but PS3 with linux capabilities may beat out the cheaper XBox360+GearsOfWar for my gaming dollars. I have until PS3's are more available to make up my mind.

[Tim Burns @ Nov 28th 2006 2:17AM]

"However, the XBox360 will not be left out of HD game storage. If by holiday season 2007 there are great games that need more than DVD9 space then Microsoft will be able to sell the HD add-on for $100 by then, and they will probably do a game+HDdrive bundle for $150 for the first title that needs it. It will prove their brilliant strategy: release a console a year ahead of the competition and give people a great upgrade to spend their holiday dollars on in 2007."

Exactly, just like the highly successful and widely supported PS2 HDD......

[_man1c_ @ Nov 28th 2006 2:30AM]

they have said countless times they will not use the HD-DVD add-on for games. just movies. and yea i know its their word, and companies break their word. i still rather though dont see the big deal of using 2 disks if needed to put one game on.

[Luminaire @ Nov 28th 2006 2:27AM]

Wow, using dd to create a bit for bit copy of a DVD. What a novel idea.

[Kris Senchantixay @ Nov 28th 2006 2:47AM]

You know....no one really ever complained about multiple disc...so why should they now? Also, by the time the X360 games utilize every millimeter of space on DVD 9, we will have a format winner (or none at all) and there will be another console coming out.

What's the life cycle of consoles? 4-6 years?

[Timbobsteve @ Nov 28th 2006 3:24AM]

Is everyone here serious?

Since when does game size have anything to do with quality? If the game developers were clever and put more effort into compression and their game engines, we would see better games taking up no more than 200Mb.

Procedural content generation is the next step forward. Look at Spore for PC, while not really on par with Gear Of War, it is not bad looking. Kreiger (a Scene.org demo game) took not much more than 2Mb for one whole game that employed alot of the same tech used in GOW and Doom3 (while not as polished of course :P).

Can everyone please stop saying that BD-DVD games are better quality than HD-DVD games because they can hold more on them. The only thing that allows the developer to do is become lazy.

This is just rediculous.