Survey points to Blu-ray negativity, attributed to Sony's "heavy handed" approach
By Darren Murph 
posted December 7th 2006 11:16AM
posted December 7th 2006 11:16AM
While some folks just can't make up their mind, and other have already leaned one way or the other, a recent independent survey points to Sony's format being the one losing ground and interest, but we can't say we're surprised. Betamax, ATRAC, MiniDisc, and UMDs were all crafted by Sony, and all fell (basically) flat before ever really catching on, and it seems the costly Blu-ray format may be headed for the same fate. Cymfony, a market influence analytics company, found that "positive discussions" about HD DVD were "46-percent higher" than talks about Blu-ray, with over twice as many post authors being "impressed with HD DVD" rather than "impressed with Blu-ray." A good deal of the negativity shown towards Blu-ray was attributed to Sony's "heavy handed" approach of forcing Blu-ray upon PlayStation 3 owners, not to mention the notoriously delayed (and pricey) standalone players. Although it's still far too early to tell which format will rise victorious (you know, since peace talks have all but ceased), there's no denying the high costs associated with both next-generation discs, but Sony's track record with these proprietary ideas definitely doesn't bode well for it.[Via TechDigest]
You do not see the big picture. Of course HD-DVD sold out, small shipments, allot of early adopters and tech freaks. HD-DVDs only advantage is that they were first to the market and that they are cheaper, at least now in the begining.
I follow the news both in the US and EU and so far it seems like HD-DVD is the preferred format in the US, according to polls and new, and Blu-Ray in Europe. Asia will be decided by the PS3. Asians are PS3 fanboys so my prediction is that Blu-Ray will grab the market there.
What I think is strange is that people only look to what's cheaper. I think that people are fooling themselves. If Optical Media is dead, as some say, why go for the second best? Now when we have the chance, lets advance some. If you compare HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, there is not much difference so why go for the format with the lowest storage capacity? HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are equally good at showing movies and in the spec there isn't much difference so what I don't understand is why people can't see the advantage of Blu-Ray if both formats are equally good at everything else. For me, I will go with the Blu-Ray. HD-DVD's 15 GB is too small today. I don't really care about the Movies and I think most people don't care which format there movies gets delivered on as long as it's HD. That's why I think that in the end it's the storage capacity that will decide this war and in that war Blu-Ray is the clear winner. If we go with HD-DVD, will will have to live with that format for many many years to come and what should we do with a 15 GB Optical medium when we have 1 TB disks within a few years? HD-DVD is doomed, believe me. The only reason Microsoft is supporting HD-DVD is because they can't stand to support Blu-Ray when they are competing with Sony in the Console Market. Blu-Ray would have had Microsoft's vote if they were not in the Console market.
BD is actually the better technology over HD-DVD. HD-DVD uses a microsoft developed codec that has only been cracked once. That says a lot for MS, where as everything else sony and MS have done, have been cracked who knows how many times. Look at windows and the PSP (FYI:sony came out and admitted the psp was not a gaming device).
If I were a movie company, I would go with the more secure technology. Can any one verify how hard it is to crack and copy BD? I have been told it is not as secure, but have not had any verification on this.
And it is much MUCH easier to market HD-DVD, than Blu-ray. That point was already brought up. If I werent a techno geek, I would be like WTH is Blue-ray? (misspelling intentional)
And yes sony does force their technology on people. MS was smart, and did not include the HD drive in the 360. I like having a choice in technology, not having it forced on me, which is why I bought the Wii, and until there is a clear winner, I will not buy a PS3 or 360. I will just mooch off of friends who have them. I do not believe in early adoption. I waited 2-3 years to buy my first dvd burner after they had been out. Early adopters get punished. Only reason most people bought a ps3, is cause of the cheap BD player.
Come on..... "Blue Ray" is just so much easier to say than HDDDDDVDD. It'll win if for just that reason.
What are everyones thoughts on Why Sony's formats have seemed to failed so much?
AGAIN, BLU-RAY IS NOT A SONY FORMAT.
I can't stand that everyone thinks it is. It is a Panasonic designed format that Sony is on the board of directors for. It works like a HDD in a computer, and has a huge lead in the computer industry. It can also do movies, and in the future hold 100/200GB per disc. HD-DVD has no such future. Also, the movie industry is 80% blu-ray. By the end of the year, blu-ray will out distribute HDDVD.
"The downside of being better than everyone else is that people tend to assume you're pretentious."
Oh Sony.
Are you kidding me?
Does anybody on Engadget have any brains at all? They've been picking on Sony since.. forever. Fine, so be it. I can deal with a company that I admire (you read that right). But stop hitting below the belt. There's a limit to the condescending drivel you post with such admirable consistence.
Do they even realize that, empirically speaking, polls are bullshit? There is no reliability because, as one poster previously mentioned, the public is highly fickle. And there are tools pollsters frequently use to manipulate results any which way they want - such as question phrasing. Second problem - sample set. If you go to MA and ask political questions, you're going to get liberal answers. Just because 80% of your set replies in one direction does not mean that the entire public think that way. Deal with it.
And to the guy who posted a Google search as proof: he searched for 'blu-ray' versus 'hd dvd'. A noticable difference.
Link: http://www.google.com/trends?q=blu-ray%2C+hd+dvd&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all
Try sticking the hyphens on both, man.
Link for 'blu-ray' vs. 'hd-dvd':
http://www.google.com/trends?q=blu-ray%2C+hd-dvd&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all
If you stick a hyphen on just 'hd-dvd', vs. 'blu ray'
http://www.google.com/trends?q=blu+ray%2C+hd-dvd&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all
Not quite so satisfying now, is it. This is a prime example of how useful 'polls' are. Even though this is unconscious, it's a simplified analogy of how this changing the question can radically alter responses. And that's how reliable polls are, too.
Engadget continues to sully it's own credibility by posting crap like this... the only reason I even come here anymore is for that occasional decent post. Unfortunately, they're becoming more and more interspersed with invaluable articles like 'Evergreen's blinking headphones: 'cause you hate daddy' and 'Solid Alliance's Kore Ja Nai makes you cry'.
As soon as you find someone who cares, let me know. I want to give them the 'Excessively-Salivating Idiot of the Year' prize.
You don't have to stop Sony-bashing. But at least do it sensibly. People will respect your website more.
To o rly
"9 new screeners in front of me received in the past week; 3 being Beta, 5 being DVD, 1 being VHS.
Seems like Beta is still in use to me."
Uh, you mean BetaCam right? BetaMax went by the wayside ages ago. If you still have a betamax player let me introduce you to the 20th Century!
One thing people forget...
Those that are early adapters (of technology) are mostly likelty to be on forums and blogs than those who are not early adapters.
I think in the end blu-ray will win if the ps3 is a runaway success like the ps2 was. i have hd-dvd and with a ps3 i now have blu-ray. but think about this time next year if u have 15 million ps3s worldwide u have 15 million bluray playes in peoples homes. hd-dvd will not have that type of adoption and then more movies and studios will develop for it. kind of like video game studios making a game for a ps2 over the gamecube or xbox simply because the installed user base is so high there is potentional to make more money on that system cause its just that many damn ps2s out there. and i think the same thing will take shape with blu-ray. and for the record when the ps2 came out yeah dvd was out there but nowhere like it is now and plenty of people i know a ps2 was there first dvd player. its not exactly forcing it on somebody but if u have it why not use it. nobody is forcing u 2 go buy movies just watch them at the theater or wait for them to hit tv and be done. same with dvds i had friends who would actually go buy some movies simply because there ps2 could play them and i think the blu-ray will pretty much fall in the same category.
I'm gonna win the format war. I've been training day in and day out. The way I present storytelling in high def is superior to any inorganic product. My psychic beam emerses you IN THE MOVIE! I'm just working out the kinks. You'll see. Once I figure out how to stop the nosebleeds, you'll have me in your home in no time.
If Engadget thinks that they can do better than Sony... well put your money where your mouth is.
Sure, this place is just a tech blog, but a tech blow with some street cred. Don't put it to waste by needlessly talking bad about others.
tech blog*, my bad.
That's stupid. How is Sony forcing Blu-ray on PlayStation 3 users?! The console supports CD, DVD, and SACD in addition to BD. And it's only necessary for PlayStation 3 format games, which wouldn't be used on any other system in the first place.
When dual format players hit the market this argument will be moot. People will buy/rent movies based on titles and value added bonuses without giving a second thought to format.
I own the 360 HD DVD drive and it's pretty great but there is no way I'll invest in a swank stand alone player that doesn't do both formats. It's all about the movies for me.
Duh, I mean, this is the hear and now. There are only a few games that go over the 9G barrier that DVD has currently and in the future games will magically get smaller because the compression fairies will work magic and not take any CPU cycles to compress textures and data to fit on that 9G disc. (...just like they magically give a certain system free anti-aliasing without using the GPU or CPU at all!!) So therefore, using il-logic I deduce that 9G is all we will ever need. Add that to the fact that everyone in the world has broadband internet, will download everything instead of going to the store and buying it, and you come up with the answer that Blu-Ray isn't needed. It totally makes no sense to think of a new format. We will never need more than 640K...oops, scratch that, I mean, we will never need more then 9G on a disc so Blu-Ray isn't even needed, thus it's being forced.
Does it make more sense now?
It's not only about size though.
It's about read speed, durability, and (yet to be busted) piracy protection. All of which are important. Also, compression technology isn't gonna help movies or audio, where less compression is better. Also, the extra space allows for games to be cheaper in the long run, saving the companies production costs by allowing all versions of the game to be on the same disc. And it allows for some development leeway, if code is rushed or development time crunched. If a game is expected, coding bloatware could be faster than going in and cleaning up code and running compression compilers. (Just because it's bloatware doesn't mean it's not good.)
Sure, you could say the Sony is "forcing" consumers into Blu-Ray, but it really is, in some ways, for our own good. I couldn't convince my mom back in the day to upgrade to DVD. We got a PS2, where Sony "forced" a DVD player into our homes. I don't think she regrets it, at all. I got a game system, and as a bonus, a player for the next generation format.
All I'm saying is, if people have to pay for Blu-Ray now, most likely they won't regret it in the future. If we give the consumers a choice in the matter, we might have a format war that'll never end.
I don't know where I'm going with this. I'm tired, so it might not be coherent. But hopefully some understood what I was trying to say.
It would make sense, Andir, if you hadn't been spewing nonsense. Did people stop buying DVDs just when Bittorrents became popular? Did people stop buying TV shows on DVD just because Apple came out with downloads at the itunes store?
People will always need portability of their media and movies.
Who knows - at some point, studios may package movies from boxed sets and sell them on a single Blu-ray disc, like Sony's own Spider-man trilogy on ONE dual layer Blu-Ray. You could never do that with the 30GB on a dual layer HD-DVD.
Years ago, people thought they could never fill up 4GB of space on their hard drives. That one example alone should teach people the stupidity of claiming that we'd never use [insert x number of GB/TB]. We need more space. We always will. Theoretically, Blu-ray could reach 200GB on an eight-layer disc, although that's years from now (to those who say so many layers are not feasible, a four layer 100GB has already been manufactured - and people were saying that's not possible, either). 200GB - versus the maximum of 45GB for the HD-DVD. Toshiba has not proposed anything bigger, and until they do there's no point in expecting anything more.
One final argument, concerning player prices. Blu-ray player prices will drop by a higher percentage than HD-DVD players over any given time period. Reason: HD-DVD's own stance that their format didn't require as big a production method shift as Blu-ray. That's why it's cheaper. But a fundamental feature is decline of costs as production ramps up and technology rises (and we know how steeply that's going to rise). Blu-ray will benefit much more deeply from these developments simply because it's more advanced, and has a longer way to go - implying that the rate of change in cost will greater (they will both stabilize at the same price eventually). And Sony's claim is that in the long run, the discs will end up being even cheaper to produce thatn HD-DVDs (unsubstantiated as of yet - we're not quite at that stage, but I'm guessing they have a reason for saying that).
Sony's also in the entertainment industry, and actually owns a couple of studios, responsible for plenty of great movies. And hell will be paved over and a retirement home erected before they release their own movies in HD-DVD. Toshiba's supporters will have no such qualms about switching if it looks like their format's about roll over and play dead.
Blu-ray players are going to become just as cheap (sometime in 2007's my guess); and the discs are going to be even cheaper after that (probably not until past 2008). About 70% more space to begin with to even begin with, much more room for expansion (in terms of data layers) on Blu-Ray. Finally, Sony has a firm foundation in the film industry.
I rest my case.
@Andir3.0
So, what are you saying – that YOU'RE the blind fanboy? That you’re FOR Sony? Ok, fine, be in Sony’s corn, that is your right to do so. But, please don’t misunderstand. NOBODY thinks Microsoft is the good guy. They suck too. And Apple isn’t a saint either.
People HATE Sony, because they treat their customers like crap. Period, end of story. Being “cool” has nothing to do with it. I have a PS2, which I love. A PSP, which I hate. And a 6 year old DVD player that still works. I’m not buying a PS3, until FF13 – and not a moment sooner. This is my money were talking about, and when you deal with Sony – it’s every man for himself.
When Sony gets around to changing their Customer “Don’t” Care policy, only then will I purchase their products – maybe. Not a second before.
I think the naming convention of HD-DVD is better than Blu-Ray for the uneducated consumer. From what I have read on Blu-Ray and HD-DVD so far is that HD-DVD has better quality to it. That may change. Never know.
The reason I think Blu-Ray has a much better chance to beat out HD-DVD is in fact the PS3. From the people I have talked to and the people that have posted things online, there are many people that don't like either or don't want to pick up the HD-DVD add on for the 360.
On the other hand, you have PS3 owners that already have Blu-Ray.
Many of my friends have a 360 or a PS3 or both. Some of my friends with only 360s debate the HD-DVD add on and some don't care and will not get it.
Those with the PS3s have already picked up a few Blu-Ray movies because their favorite movie came out and they saw both the regular DVD and the Blu-Ray disc on shelves and were like "hmm...I guess I might as well pick up the Blu-Ray version"
I asked them about it and while they agree that HD-DVD is better in comparision, they don't have the player so their money is going toward Blu-Ray at this moment.
So that makes me wonder how much that is going to spread as more people get PS3s.
PreGHz:
You were SO right calling it tech blow, Engadget blows quite a bit lately.
I was being sarcastic :p
Streaming videos cannot come up to the quality and reassurance of having a hard copy.
Unless you're willing to sit there while a 9GB (and larger) movie downloads onto your computer.
I like owning my disc so I can take them from room to room, and to a friend's place. There are so many facets of movie watching that YouTube or a movie download service can't cover.
I, Robot:
My comment was not to suggest that Sony has all the movie companies in their pocket but rather point out that they have a number of companies. If we are going to call Blu-ray a Sony standard (it is not) then we should call HD-DVD a Toshiba standard (also not). How many movie companies does Toshiba own? The idea is that Sony has something that gives Blu-ray an advantage.
Blu-ray isn't THEIR standard; it is the format they have chosen to back. If Sony was releasing both Blu-ray and HD-DVD equipment people would be complaining that Sony can't make a decision. They believe this to be the next big thing and a willing to gamble a lot of money on it. I do not believe they are being "over confident" but rather getting behind an idea and sticking to it. I like that in Sony.
There is no "handwriting on the wall". The formats are too new and no decisions have been made as to which is the winner.
Streaming media and getting content on a cell phone are a cute idea at best. When I want to watch a movie I want it now and don't want to wait. I also don't want to watch it on a 1.5" diagonal screen, rather I would much prefer a 60 diagonal screen. We are far from the days of streaming all our content in real time to our homes. Also, what about those people (read: most) in the U.S. without access to the high speed connections necessary to stream HD content over a wire to their home?
Just because Sony did not come out on top with some of their ideas does not make them wrong. It is innovation like that which makes our products better than ever today. I for one love MD and have four portable players as well as a bookshelf system I just recently purchased in Japan. I also dare any Engadget reader to tell the Japanese people that MiniDisc was a failure and that no products are available for it. I wish Sony continued success in their effort to bring new and exciting things to market and hope they never begin to play follow the leader.
I guess I'm more tired than I thought.
*claps*
thank you!
Oh, sorry, Andir.. didn't get the sarcasm. My bad :).
Am I the only one who has noticed that Circuit City has a much larger selection of Blu-Ray that HD-DVD content. At the CC in N. Attleboro, MA, there are two double sided Blu-Ray displays but only one HD-DVD endcap. And that endcap is not prominently signed. HD-DVD are packed on the shelves 4 deep in no apparent order.
blu-ray is more data dense, so even if HDDVD wins over the movie market, blu-ray is far more desirable to people like me who want blue laser discs only for the purpose of backing up our files.
i just hope that by this time next year, they have blue laser burners that do both formats for $300 or less, but that's about as likely as the optimus keyboard getting 512x512px color screens in each button and dropping the price to $10 by tomorrow.
They did not force anything, no one had to buy it.
Its funny how people at engadget managed to bash (yet again) technologies other than the new DVD formats in an article about the new DVD formats. Stay away from Betamax, Atrac, or Minidisc! MD might not be doing very well in USA, but it does just fine elsewhere. All you allmighty iPod owners- you should only be so lucky to listen to the newest MD machines (like MZ-RH1), which make all iPods sound like an AM radio.
I appreciate good technology, and dont care whos behind it, or manufactures it. Does 1 of the 2 new DVD formats really has to win? Both technologies have their advantages and disadvantages, so pick whichever you prefer, and leave the other alone. At least you have a choice...
Sony did also invent CDs and CD-Rs. I think a few people have used those.
As others have said I think both will fail. 30GB and 54Gb is nothing compared to the 500GB Violet Laser disc Pioneer displyed last year, and even less than hologram discs which had reached 1.6TB on a single disc last I read. IBM said they could store 1 GB of data in a crystal the size of a sugar cube, and at CES 2006, a workable holographic drive was tested and stored 300 GB of memory. This Blu-Ray and HD-DVD stuff doesn't really interest me, we already have the technology to store way more on to the same size disk.
Does anyone even know which major companies support HDDVD? So far I've seen quite a few BD lists and even a link to the BD site. I personally think that BD will win due to many factors that I'm not going to waste the time restating what everyone else has already said.
HD DVD (exclusive studios):
Universal Studios
New Line Cinema
Lions Gate Entertainment
Weinstein Co.
Image Entertainment
HBO
In my opinion here is what it all boils down to. BD is more expensive per disc, however, it holds almost 2x more data (we're keeping it basic here). So in theory even though each disc is more expensive it would take 2 HD DVD's to equal the amount of space. After you include the price of all of the packaging the extra disc takes, the weight involved with mass shipping and cost of printing 2 disc's to the 1, it only makes logical sense that the media that stores more data should be the one adopted. You have to keep in mind here, these are just storage mediums, quality on screen will be the same because they both use the same video formats. The only difference in player is the laser to read the disc.
And to everyone who keeps saying that Sony has had a bunch of failed formats, they failed in the consumer markey, not the commercial market. So shut-up about the "failed" formats already, consumers will be stupid and go for price, professionals will be smart and go for quality.
I find it funny that on one hand people are saying HD-DVD does not have the storage capacity for longer films but then others go on about 100GB and even 200GB Blu-ray discs. The 200GB blu-ray disc is 8 layers! So apparently these people are saying only blu-ray can have more than two layers? Show me your proof to back this idea.