That's it folks, let's pack it up and go home: the format war is over. Or at least so says
Sony, which is bragging about some solid numbers from the month January. Reportedly two
Blu-ray Discs were sold for every one
HD DVD last month, and while HD DVD standalone players still edge out Blu-ray by a slight margin, PS3 sales have given the Blu-ray camp a solid win for the month. Numbers are still hard to read, due to disparate launch titles and quantities for Blu-ray and HD DVD, but the 25 Blu-ray movies and 11 HD DVD movies give a good impression of the current trend. Reportedly HD DVD sales are growing, just not as fast and Blu-ray, and Sony seems to think they have it in the bag: "We have a critical mass of content, we have the biggest mass of consumer electronics companies in the world supporting this format. That has moved Blu-ray into the forefront." And despite the fact that Universal Studios is still holding out on putting its movie on Blu-ray -- the last of the studios to do so -- Sony would like to let consumers know it's alright to come out of hiding. "The message that we're going to put out to the consumer now is, now it is safe to make a choice. No more fence-sitting is needed." We can't blame Sony for trying to spin these numbers as a win, it's pretty clear that consumers are wary of committing to one format while another is still alive and kicking, but we're afraid this might be calling the game a tad prematurely.
[Via
Engadget HD]
posted February 13th 2007 8:48PM
I don't wish to add fuel to the mass-flaming going on here, but a few too many people are waxing lyrical about 'more space'.
In case anyone is not yet aware, Blu Ray uses older Mpeg2 format to encode the content, which takes up a lot more space than the more efficient Mpeg4 that is used by HD-DVD. As an example, maybe some are familiar with HD .ts (mpeg2) and x264 (mpeg4) files that are avaliable on the inetrnet nowadays: a 2-hour HD feature in 720p can take up to 8gb or more of space when encoded an mpeg2 .ts stream, whereas typically it would take around 4gb as an x264 file. Picture quality is identical in both cases.
Basically, you're talking apples and oranges - different code requires different capacity. As for any claim of 'better resolution' - let's be cear - all movies released on either formats are encoded as 1080p/24fps - there is no such thing as 'better' resolution.
What else is there to buy for PS3 owners? They have 1 decent game out and a bucnh of mediocre multiplats. Hell, I'd be buying up blu-rays too so my $600 system didn't sit there collecting dust...
WHICH format will get the damn movies I want, by which I mean Lord of the Rings and Star Wars? That will decide this whole thing.
your wrong because of the following reasons:
1. blu-ray movies DO use vc-1 or mpeg4. warner bros typically uses vc-1 while sony has started to use mpeg 4.
2. mpeg 2 doesnt neccesarly not look good, for example go to www.highdefdigest.com, and checkout the review for mission impossible 3. 5 stars for video quality, and guess what its mpeg 2
Link......
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/business/la-fi-porn12feb12,1,7526606.story?ctrack=1&cset=true
As the opposing camps pushing the next generation of DVDs try to win audiences, they are furtively pursuing the affections of the multibillion-dollar porn industry.
Since the advent of home video, adult entertainment has played a key role in the adoption of new consumer technology. Porn companies, for instance, helped VHS trump Betamax in the '70s. More recently, they began streaming online video long before television networks.
So backers of the rival — and incompatible — HD DVD and Blu-ray formats are trying to entice porn producers to adopt their respective technologies. Even if they're not proud of it.
Last summer, a group pitching Blu-ray visited the Canoga Park offices of Wicked Pictures, whose films include "As Sleazy as 1-2-3" and "Womb Raiders." Wicked executive Jackie Ramos said the Blu-ray proponents spent hours explaining how the movie studio could benefit from releasing Blu-ray DVDs, which deliver dramatically higher picture quality than conventional discs.
But what amused Ramos was the warning that came after the presentation — "They said, 'We can help you, but remember: We were never here.' "
Versions of that message keep popping up as the backers of Blu-ray and HD DVD court the porn industry. Giants with a stake in the outcome include the likes of Microsoft Corp., Toshiba and Sony Corp.
The lengths to which they are going — and won't go — provide one way to measure the progress of the fiercest format war since VHS versus Betamax.
The porn industry has helped the HD DVD camp stay in the game despite support for Blu-ray from big electronics companies and Hollywood.
The battle is still young. Demand for the next-generation DVDs won't really take off until more people own televisions that can take advantage of the superior picture quality. And this month's introduction of an LG Electronics player that can handle either type of next-generation DVD — along with Warner Home Video's unveiling of a new hybrid "Total Hi Def" disc that holds both formats — suggests that the fight could last far longer than first predicted.
HD DVD, whose backers include Microsoft, Toshiba and General Electric Co.'s Universal Pictures, was out of the gate first. But since December, when Sony's PlayStation 3 and other devices that play Blu-ray movies began shipping in volume, Blu-ray disc sales have taken the lead.
Blu-ray has every major Hollywood studio except Universal (some are issuing in both formats). And with 710,000 PlayStation 3s and dedicated players sold through the end of the year, Blu-ray now has about four times as many homes to play in as HD DVD does.
But it is still too early to write off HD DVD, especially with inexpensive players due later this year from Chinese manufacturers, said Tom Adams, president of Adams Media Research. "HD is going to beat Blu-ray to $300 and $200 — all the prices that start unlocking all the segments of population that will buy," he said.
With the race this close, it stands to reason that both sides are paying close attention to the porn kings of the San Fernando Valley. By some estimates, adult titles make up 10% or more of the $24-billion annual market in traditional DVDs.
Plus, anyone wondering who would most appreciate pictures that appear crisper than real life had only to witness a briefing at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas last month by LG Electronics, maker of the expensive players for either format. None of the presenter's points gripped the audience like the slow-motion HD DVD video of a model emerging from a swimming pool, every drop glistening as it fell from her white bikini.
Most U.S. porn producers are getting their feet wet with HD DVD.
During those hushed meetings with the producers, HD DVD and Blu-ray promoters insisted on secrecy as they touted the features of their respective formats. Each was sensitive to concerns specific to adult entertainment, such as how to edit out the surgical scars that would otherwise be far too visible.
But the HD DVD side went further, providing training and unofficially connecting the studios with the factories known as replicators, which stamp out discs from a master copy.
The porn industry is having trouble finding replicators to press Blu-ray DVDs.
HD DVD production methods are built on the old DVD standards, so the older machinery can be retooled to make the next-generation discs. But Blu-ray requires expensive new equipment. That's why there are only eight or so Blu-ray replicators in the world.
For Vivid Entertainment Group, the physical production of Blu-ray discs will come to about 35% of those movies' budgets, compared with 15% for HD DVDs and 10% for a standard DVD, said Vivid Chief Executive Steve Hirsch.
Even if a porn studio wants to pay extra for Blu-ray, Sony and Walt Disney Co. make it hard.
Sony manufactures Blu-ray discs but won't do it for adult titles. And Disney requires the replicators it uses to pledge not to use the same machines and employees to publish porn. Disney has its reasons: In the past, porn snippets have accidentally shown up on Disney titles. Neither company would comment for the record about porn.
Since Disney uses most of the biggest U.S. Blu-ray replicators, L.A.-based Vivid, the only adult producer to promise some Blu-ray discs, has been forced to range far afield.
"The Blu-ray people are making it very difficult for the adult guys," Hirsch said.
On the other hand, that may just be because they can afford to be difficult.
If HD DVD mounts a serious comeback, executives at two mainstream Blu-ray studios said, Sony and Disney will consider giving the porn makers a little more quiet help.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
joseph.menn@latimes.com
dawn.chmielewski@latimes.com
ROTFLMAO!!! Chimps are running Sony PR these days right? That must be it.
Oh and I declare myself Overlord of Universe and 2007 Stanley Cup Champion. Shit that was easy. I'll expect the Cup in the morning or I will destroy the planet.
dude, Sidney Crosby would totally score on your ass!
if Sony's statements are as they say and presumably "totally 100% true" then here is how I see it:
if Blu-ray wins then Sony has primary control over the home movie media network and over pretty much all protable disk storage(same as a dictatorship).
if HD-DVD wins then we have our DVD's in a higher resolution and there is a theme of red(democracy).
I dont know as much as I would love to hand over an entire multi-billion dollar industry to the ever consumer friendly Sony corps.(wtf is up the psp and ps3), I enjoy haveing a system of Checks and Balances.
Absolute power, corrupts absolutely.
People are trying to predict the high-definition winner from a very small portion of the ultimate sales, and that small portion isn't even representative of overall consumers (it's mostly been early adopters and PS3 fans)!
It's like watching an election... The tv news always prematurely report who's leading, and in the last Canadian election, the news showed a communist party with a significant portion of votes in one riding! That significant portion of votes was actually only about 3 people! That's right, the tv-news was reporting the results based on one poll with about 10 total votes, while there were still thousands of votes still uncounted in that riding!!! (Each "poll" represents a short range of addresses, e.g. one block of a street, which does not necessarily represent the entire area. For example, that street might be a poorer or richer part of the city, or could be skewed by as little as one unusual household.)
You cannot predict the results of an election from 10 voters! Likewise, you cannot predict the winner of a format war from a handful of early-adopters.
@ Steve
besides wasn't that whole vhs and beta max thing a whole 20 years ago. thats at least a hundred years in another industry, would you compare the success of the modern Corvette versus the modern Thunderbird from when they first came out in the 40's? that would be a joke, just like UMD movies
You should start numbering these, like the CEOhhh no they didn't.
This is the third time they have claimed victory?
Who cares which format wins? Standard definition DVD's look great on my 32" non-HDTV and DVD prices have been crazy lately!! There have been some good movies the last couple weeks that I've picked up for $9.99, $7.99, $4.99... I just keep expanding my DVD library rather than buying a $1000 HDTV, $500 player and $25 discs. I don't think Sony realizes that the average person doesn't care about HD quite yet...
I think I'll just buy standard def while broadband gets faster and hard drives get bigger and both get cheaper. When I can store and stream HD content to every TV in my house, I'll consider the format war over. On that note, let the DRM war begin!!
I don't think the format war is over. I think there is one factor missing for either format, porn. Until the porn industry adopts one format and really pushes it as the porn-industry format I do not think the war will really be decided. Porn decided beta-max vs. VHS and I think it will be the same for Blu-Ray.
Chufmoney
www.eat-sleep-game.com
eBay stat, dvd movies for sale on 2/14/2007:
DVD (217,812)
HD-DVD (1,013)
Blu-ray (1,193)
Laserdisk (5,089)
VHS (70,169) I haven't seen a VHS tape in a LONG time
So there are almost 20% more Blu-ray discs in "circulation" on eBay. So are they the current leader? It seems so.
I personally think that downloaded HD will win, not a disk. Downloadable music started gaining popularity just as broadband started becoming mainstream. When was the last time you bought a CD? I haven't bought one in years.
I would prefer to download HD content, would love a netflix/napster type of account that lets you download unlimited HD content for a monthly fee. I just don't see many people wanting to spend up to $40 for a blu-ray disc while the same dvd is $10 and looks pretty close to HD using a quality upconvert DVD player.
Electronics stores support Blunder-Ray because it's higher profit margins for them. Beta-Ray sucks, 5 extra gigs for less picture quality, extra DRM, on and on
The war isn't far from over... I think that perhaps the price cuts on HD-DVD when the players fall to $200 or less will have a big impact. I think it will still be another two years before we get a clear picture.
http://www.startblue.net
Not so fast Sony, theres no "the winner is you" for Sony. according to Slashdot, HDDVD's and Bluray's protection scheme has been broken.
http://slashdot.org/articles/07/02/13/1724238.shtml
http://www.boingboing.net/2007/02/13/bluray_and_hddvd_bro.html
19/02/2007 the day HDDVD and Blu-Ray got pwned.
Isn't it ironic that the more complex the DRM, the FASTER it is hacked? I'm not just talking HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, but XBox 360 and the Wii as well. Still waiting on PS3 mod chips...
I guess the technology curve right now is favoring the hackers rather than the DRM'ers. Maybe that's the way it will always be, which means that the NEXT generation movie and game formats will be hacked even faster despite 34534523452345-bit encryption.
Well, now we know where all the money Sony is sinking into the PS3 is going- so Sony can claim to be the winner 2 months into a long, long race. They may not have won the console war over the holidays, but did win the format war. I guess the attach rate for BR movies is much better than that for PS3 games...
Look, we all know this is PR. But heck why wouldn't Sony use all the ammo it has at its disposal? MAYBE this ends up being one of those situations where Sony only has to win 1 battle (console or next-gen DVD), and that will eventually tip over the other battle too.
For example, let's say that the early install base lead plus the larger number of content providers (which is more significant IMO) does eventually lead to Blu-Ray winning and HD-DVD folding. How will that impact the console war? Will Microsoft rush out a Blu-ray add-on player? Will the perceived value proposition of the 2 consoles change?
OTOH, if HD-DVD had taken a clear and early lead, maybe that would spell doom for the PS3 on the optical drive tech alone, since it is saddled with an expensive, obsolote technology. BUT...surely Sony was counting on PS3 sales giving Blu-Ray an early lead for the first year or so, coupled with greater studio support...maybe this ends up being a fairly good gamble for Sony to make. It's rare to see such a huge company make such a bet-the-company type move, it will be entertaining to watch the outcome unfold.
One thing I think is clear- I think the HD-DVD camp is going to have to do something to answer the volley. It's a war of perception here- the perceived winner will eventually become the true winner. So Sony is rightfully tooting its horn right now. Either the HD-DVD hardware makers or the content providers will have to do something to answer and try to establish their own momentum. If Microsoft doesn't want to discount the 360, it should have a fat $100 rebate on a 360/HD-DVD bundle or something like that, throw in a free movie as well. The regular player makers are in less position to subsidize, except with free movie deals.
I think when people talk about the influence of porn, the greatest influence porn had was on videotape in general because before then you had to sneak into a XXX theater, there were no other avenues, no internet, etc. So while I think porn has some influence here, it's not going to be the ultimate decider or anything.
None of this really affects me one way or the other. I'm not going to buy a player until they're under $200, and the format war will probably have ended by then...
To use Sony's logic everyone can stop worrying and go and buy a Wii.
The Wii is currently outselling the PS3 3.5:1
So the PS3 has obviously lost. Not so?
Seriously I'll keep camping on my fence for now... I hope Blu-Ray wins it's got a cooler name than HD-DVD and that is about how much I care about this format war :)
Sony needs to be banned from creating proprietary formats and be forced to stick with either open standards or someone else's format.
First off, Blu-ray can use mpeg-2, vc-1 or AVC MPEG-4. Earlier on, studios use mpeg-2 because it was easier and they were too lazy to remaster it in a newer codec. Most studios know better now. A lot of the newer titles are coming out in either VC-1 or AVC MPEG-4. Most people who have seen Open Season now think its the best looking title on either format. Blu-ray has higher specs than HD DVD ...specifically 50 GB vs 30 GB and 54 Mbit/s data transfer rate vs 36 Mbit/s data transfer rate. All things being equal and assuming the studios are competent in using the right technology, a Blu-ray disc will sound and look better than a HD DVD disc. Everyone who has experience in encoding videos knows that the codec used, the size available, and data transfer rate determines the video audio quality.
For those who still have a high opinion(regarding the size and profitability of the industry) of the porn industry and think they will determine the winner of the format war ...think again. Here is an eye opener Newsweek article you should read:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17033892/site/newsweek/
Here is a choice quote from the article:
“I'm not sure porn will play too big a role in determining which standard rules,” e-mails DiGiorgio. “In the past, porn embraced new technologies that were just gaining a foothold. DVDs are not new, and I don't think consumers perceive Blu-Ray and HD-DVD as new technologies. Instead, they see them as an evolution of an existing technology.... With Blu-ray [versus] HD-DVD, porn will go where the masses go.” In other words, porn is not driving the bus—it’s riding shotgun.
Blu-ray isn't the winner. Blu-ray will die just like every other Sony format. This is just a bunch of Sony marketing blather. Just because they suggest it's won doesn't mean it has. That makes absolutely no sense.
We're Sony, and bla bla bla...
Yeah, keep talking Sony. Nobody's listening.
Ultimately, all media will die and content will go virtual, but until that happens, Blu-ray will not win. The porn industry has adopted HD-DVD 100% and isn't doing anything with Blu-ray. Now I don't support that industry at all, but do you know what that will do for sales of HD-DVD players? That industry is a $12 BILLION industry and will have ENORMOUS impact on what happens in the market in terms of both hardware and movie sales. And the comments about the PS3 and all that nonsense doesn't and won't mean a thing.
As far as I'm concerned, Blu-ray will last for a while longer, and slowly lose momentum over time until it finally dies off. Like every other Sony format.
"...a Blu-ray disc will sound and look better than a HD DVD disc..."
I don't know where you're getting your info from, but that is complete and utter BS.
First of all, the disc isn't the only thing that matters here. The hardware matters, too. In independant tests, HD-DVD players and movies produced the best video quality. And there isn't any discernable difference in sound quality.
People also talk about Blu-ray having higher capacity, bla bla bla. Like any of that even matters when all the nerds and dorks keep making mention of it as if they're really going to take advantage of that when considering that these blank discs will cost over $20 a pop. But if it's such a big deal, then remember triple-layer HD-DVD's are being developed that will offer even more capacity. So there.
Give me HD-DVD anyday.
Sony can't even sell a PlayStation 3 in the UK let alone a Blu-ray player/recorder. Sony's arrogance will come back to haunt them...
yeah, i was thinking the same thing. This is a rerun article
"But if it's such a big deal, then remember triple-layer HD-DVD's are being developed that will offer even more capacity. So there."
"Although the Blu-ray Disc specification has been finalized, engineers continue working to advance the technology. Quad-layer (100 GB) discs have been demonstrated. And TDK announced in August 2006 that they have created a working experimental Blu-ray Disc capable of holding 200 GB of data on a single side, using six 33 GB data layers"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluray
"Although the HD DVD standard has been finalized, engineers continue working to advance the technology. At the Consumer Electronics Show in 2007, Toshiba announced that they have created HD DVDs with 17GB layers, and demonstrated a triple-layer 51GB disc [8]. Toshiba aims to secure approval of the new disc by the DVD Forum within this year."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_DVD
In the case of both of these it is very possible that neither will work. When these units were developed they were not designed to handle more than 2 layers. But if you must bring up that HD DVD may have up to 51 gigs. How about 198 gigs for Blu-Ray?
Just some food for thought.
PS: Check out the wiki articles. They are informative and could help with some misinformation that seems to be flying around (both for Blu-Ray & HD DVD.)
George
@-ardcore
That's the thing - capacity is always being pushed. With all the new and constant research taking place, it's hard to keep up with everything these scientists are doing.
I suppose the bottom line is, most of this isn't even available and may never be.
HD DVD is already dead. Moan about Sony all you like but Blu Ray is gathering pace and with the upcoming European PS3 launch Blu Ray sales will continue to outsell HD DVD by an ever increasing margin. Downloads won't have a major impact for at least a few years yet. I, like millions of other consumers, would much rather own a physical disc that i can play anywhere and anytime.
Disney have just announced their Blu Ray titles including Cars, Pirates of The Caribbean 1&2, Chicken Little and others. The Pixar movies will look amazing on Blu Ray.
Blu Ray (non PS3) players have now overtaken the sales of HD DVD players, Blu Ray players sold = 439,000 against 438,000 for HD DVD.
A very significant fact from the NPD:
"NPD also reported that Blu Ray as a format is No.1 in both dollars and units"
See this Trade magazine for details:
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/questex/hom021107/
Sony is calling it early only because they know that they can. The gap is only going to grow in the coming months with more and more titles being released on Blu Ray as well as the European PS3 launch. The final nail in the coffin will be Universal dropping HD-DVD. But even then, There will no doubt be a group of HD-DVD die-hards claiming it's not over yet and continuing to construct elaborate excuses.
K, assuming I'm a moron and listen to Sony, it's clear that BRD has won. So? It's still $1000 for most players and movies are $40 on average. Win or not, Sony you aren't going to be making money money off your 'victory' any time soon.
The format war will not end until a hardware manufacturer can produce a consumer DVD player for under $200.
The people buying Blu-Ray and HD titles right now are early adopters, and that market is simply not big enough to end this "war." Even though I just dropped a large amount of cash on a 1080p display, I'm not going to buy a high-def DVD player or content until there is a clear winner - and my neighbors, friends, and family agree.
Sony need to hold their horses. the only reason blu ray is on top is ecasue of the PS3. Once PS3 sales slow down and HD-DVD player sales pick up...the w'ell see.
@Chuf
"Until the porn industry adopts one format and really pushes it..."
They already have and are. And it's HD-DVD.
Adult industry won't make a blind bit of difference to this, they will go with whoever wins.
The balance has already shifted significantly towards Blu Ray based purely on US and Japan sales of the PS3, when it's also released in Europe the gap will be enormous.
When movie studio execs look at the facts and figures it's blatantly obvious who they will go with, Blu Ray is number 1 in terms of players sold and dollars revenue. Work it out for yourselves or continue to stick your head in the sand.
Do Blue Ray plaers include the number of PS3's out there? I mean, it's nice that they can use it as both to win the console AND format wars :-)
Forget the format wars... let's start edumacating these poor retards that still can't differentiate between then/than or its/it's or you're/your or there/they're/their...
As for the the PS3 bombing, even if the BD never owns the market, Sony and the game makers will still use it regardless for their yet-to-be-seen games... and with its nice specs, it'll provide a plethora of data and functionality for some elaborate games... now if someone would friggin' hurry and release FFXIII or some other quality game...
I'll stick to my normal DVDs. If you walk the cutting edge, you will bleed. I predict that the current format war will end when someone slits Sony's president's throat with a Blu-Ray disc.
HD-DVD is a pointless format. Blu-Ray won years ago.
Even though both formats are barely a year old....moron.
Here is the big to do folks who here really knows anything about the formats. VC1 compression (HD-DVD) is a better quality video format than Blu Rays old mpeg2 many reviews of inter format titles will atest to this.
Secondly at the moment blu ray DOES NOT OFFER an 8 or 9 hour disc of video currently both formats do roughly 4 - 5 hours roughly depending on compression.
Blu ray has yet to even release a 9 hour disc and HD-DVD has annouced an 8.5 hour disc coming soon. Capacity is a moot point when you are already talking excess of 4 hours.
The only thing sony does that is better is lock the signal on the blu ray player and incoporate that ability to lock disks to players like the old DIVX players used to.
a more accurate comparison in this format war is not beta and vhs but more recent of a battle being DVD versus DIVX ( the disk not the video format ). Sony would be divx in this case as it is not techincally superior but offers a way to the movie studios to lock your disks down to individual players and sony has a history of jacking prices up when they entrench them selves in a format IE memory stick. And play the side of DVD is oddly HD-DVD as it is a superior format in terms of quality and overall cost of ownership is lower. and with HD-DVD there is no intent to actually make the consumer pay for its label.
laslty in the blu ray (DIVX) and HD-DVD (DVD) comparison the same thing happened with studio support actually and eeriliy it is the same grouping of movie studios in favor of blu - ray that was in favor of divx. smarten up people movie studios backing something inspite of current sales leading hd-dvd sounds like a money decision to me. DVD won out over DIVX because no one liked the idea of being able to play their discs only on their players ever
sony is t3h pwnz0r@g3. get it through your thick hd-dvd-loving skulls.
Perhaps it is not who will win the format war, but why that makes all the difference.
For example...
Blu-Ray is a newer technology, it's still buggy, and needs some time to develope. Will they switch to a more compressive technology, probably not.
DVD-HD is a very compressed technology, so more compression means more movie time with little space, however it also had the jump on the gun, by about one half year. that is perhaps more time to figure out the major bugs, then sony has.
On the crossfire though, blue-ray is using older, and more developed compressive technology, and thus probably won't have to work out a lot of bugs in formatting. versus DVD-HD which is using a very new technology and compression in order to acieve maxium running time on a more limited space.
Then there as some people liked to mention, the adult industries getting involved. If the adult industries have lesser access to open media and replecation processes on the blue-ray then dvd-hd then they will pick dvd-hd, but if blue-ray starts opening it's doors more wider, and hd-dvd starts shutting doors, blue-ray will pick up some more momentium.
So you see...
Everything they do here and now, will ultimately affect the future, and thus who will win the format war isn't just a number's game, but one of strategy.
Understanding numbers is one thing, understanding the short logic with that, is another.
And with that, may the best disk win the title say 5 years from now...