Linus Torvalds to Microsoft: put up or shut up

Aw snap. Just when you thought the Microsoft / open-source relationship was getting bad, it's now getting even worse, as yet another turn has been taken in the on-again, off-again love affair between the two. Soon after Microsoft's General Counsel claimed that free and open-source software (FOSS) -- a bundle of which related to Linux -- violated precisely 235 of its patents, Linus Torvalds decided to fire back on behalf of the little guy. In an interview with InformationWeek, Mr. Torvalds retorted by suggesting that it is actually "a lot more likely that Microsoft violates patents than Linux does," and even noted that if "the source code for Windows could be subjected to the same critical review that Linux has been, Microsoft would find itself in violation of patents held by other companies." Of course, he backed his statements by stating that the "fundamental stuff was done about half a century ago and has long, long since lost any patent protection," and closed things up by insinuating that Redmond should put its cards on the table so that Linux users prove 'em wrong, or better yet, "code around whatever silly things they claim." As if you couldn't tell, them's fightin' words, folks.

[Via IDM, image courtesy of TACTechnology]

[Aerv @ May 19th 2007 11:39AM]

Heh, why does everyone always quote visual similarities when people compare MAC OS and Windows? Why not the more staggering similarities between Active Directory in XP/Server2003 and the NDS strutures from Novell? Or just does no one care because Novell is usually limited to enterprise solutions and the average user doesn't see it... Meh, anyway, maybe more research can be done so we don't hear the same arguments all the time, yes?

[elies @ May 19th 2007 3:06PM]

Can Anybody ban that idiot form spaming every post in engadget? There is a stupid spam comment on every single post! Poor guy... all he live's for is to wait until there's a new post to quickly post a ad-comment! So sad! Can somebody ban him? It's getting annoying.

[RT @ May 20th 2007 2:14AM]

If you do a little research you will find that linux is running on thousands of different types of embeded devices in addition to PC's. Microsoft is not so concerned with the PC market as they are with the server market, where they get thousands of dollars per server for their OS. Many Buisnesses have moved to mixed windows, linux environments to save money. This has cut into Microsofts profits.

[Adam @ May 18th 2007 11:53PM]

Go Linus!

[ethana2 @ Jun 29th 2007 12:08AM]

You lurk on engadget too? I don't feel alone all of a sudden.

Anyway, I was very excited to read the title of this article, you know, with my fist up in the air and all that....

And Linus torvalds is very much alive... Thank goodness for that. My life, as a nerd, would be completely different without things to celebrate about like "Yay! The Linux kernel just went tickless!!!"

But I'm an extreme specimen.

[John Doe @ May 19th 2007 12:31AM]

Hmm I wonder....Linus vs. Ballmer. Linus has his geek factor. Probably build some sort of silly string encasing weapon. But Ballmer has his throwing chair super power. Tough call. tough call.

[WoofWoof @ May 19th 2007 12:52AM]

Microsoft always have their boys out talking silly... Maybe instead all their money on those useless, they should put some money to train their boys on 'how to speak relevantly in public' and 'how not to act goofy (like Balmer did) in public'. This is not their first time.

[Brian Donohue @ May 19th 2007 1:09AM]

Way to go Linus! I've been using Ubuntu 7.04 exclusively for about a month, so I'd like to see how it turns out. I don't even know where my Vista preload disks are.

[Jeff @ May 19th 2007 1:16AM]

Same old song. Know why? Because the argument is the kind of logic that is positively undeniable. Linux is open source, all it's code is free for all to see. Microsoft can NEVER accuse anyone of a damn thing because they'd never show their code to anyone. The risk of Microsoft showing their source code will never out-weigh the reward.

I hope Linus Torvalds gets 9 kinds of nasty on Bill & Co.

If Microsoft never make another dollar after today they could still pay it's employee's for another 150 years.

[MarkZ @ May 19th 2007 7:32PM]

They HAVE to show their code.
In fact, they do, a lot of it. Every day. Not the least of which because the European Union demands it.

They've been fined hundreds of millions of dollars for not releasing their code, then fined hundreds more because other parties within the EU said their specs were "unreadable", thus resulting in MS having to document their own source more thoroughly than they do internally.

Say what you want about that, but at this point I really don't think it's about anyone "seeing" your code.

[hresult @ May 19th 2007 1:17AM]

It's time for Torvalds to join Google - those surely "haven't" violated any patents;-)

[krizoitz @ May 19th 2007 2:26AM]

"fundamental stuff was done about half a century ago and has long, long since lost any patent protection,"

Yeah, we are all workin hard on our 50 year old computer systems. Wait while i go browse the web from my UNIVAC I

[Deezee @ May 19th 2007 5:26AM]

Torvalds vs Ballmer in a fight? I'd take Ballmer. I dont think any of those geeks can take on Ballmer in hand to hand combat. Ballmer would especially beat down that pu$$y Jobs in a fight.

[The Grand Master @ May 19th 2007 7:12AM]

Yeah, but Jobs would have his magical iPowers, capable of destroy a fat bald windows user at 50 yards when active, you need to take that into account. :p

[Ihar `Philips` Filipau @ May 19th 2007 7:20AM]

"As if you couldn't tell, them's fightin' words, folks."

You know, when somebody tries to discredit you and you would just ignore him - like most FLOSS folks do - in the end it all contributes to wider gap between the FLOSS and rest of industry. (And, hey, do not mess the vocal zealots - freshly converted mostly from Windows - with FLOSS population. That's two different worlds.)

It's not that every silly threat has to be answered. But if you let amount of lies to accumulate, it would be no good either.

Linux PR is better now - than it was 10 years ago. But back than fewer people tried to discredit it. Now when Linux shifted from being more "interesting" to being more "useful" - Microsoft, thanks to its unique monopoly, feels threatened. As monopoly, sales/marketing of M$ tries to make sure that every computer comes with Windows - whether you want it or not. And Linux was really first to give choice to people - who already thrown they money out of Windows.

M$ has no arguments: nor technical (because Linux is clearly technologically better) nor marketing (because despite GetTheFacts.com (c) M$ people still buy it).
M$ is left with no other choices but to try to gamble legal system.

Linux cuts into core Microsoft value: leaving customers without choice. M$ of course has to protect the values - on behalf of shareholders. By all means necessary. Well, business as usual.

[chiefbutz @ May 19th 2007 7:32AM]

Go Linus! Microsoft can never win while people still use Linux!

[Bob E @ May 19th 2007 7:52AM]

Linus should be jailed - the open source people have no money to pay for patents and such so they must innovate or steal other proples work.

Linux is not good for the US

[Ross @ May 19th 2007 8:28AM]

Oh do shut up you stupid little man.

No money to pay for patents... yeah right.

Not good for the US... you do know Linus is Finnish I take it?

You're an idiot, now go away and play in the traffic.

[Ben @ May 19th 2007 8:28AM]

Interesting argument Bob E.
It seems that there's no clear consensus the open source people have *actually* violated any patents.
Starbucks is not good for my country (New Zealand) because they open up lots of coffee outlets and put the local cafes out of business, and send all their profits back to the US. Should the Starbucks CEO be jailed as well?

[Bob E @ May 19th 2007 10:00AM]

Starbucks may not be good for New Zealand but we love your wine here (esp. Marlborough) in the US... Fair trade I think~

[Sam @ May 19th 2007 8:33AM]

ref "50 years ago..." that would be 1957 so I think not.

Keep in mind we are talking about *nix. Sperry and IBM had operating systems in the 60's and 70's that were time-shared (not multi-threaded). It wasn't until MVS (IBM) and VMS (DEC) that "multi-user" meant simultaneous access by multiple people (not just programs). So, I would buy into the concepts of a multi-user, multi-threaded computing environment being reasonably well thought out (and possibly patented) in the early 80's. As far as the interface goes, well that belongs (mostly) to Apple - also done in the 1980s. That would be in the range of 25 years ago. (I hate it when I have to show my age...)

Even so, most of those early patents have reached the end of their initial award.

[Windfall @ May 19th 2007 8:53AM]

The person who designed the picture must be a butthead; penguins can't fly, just like Linux.

[Bob @ May 19th 2007 9:51AM]

The penguin could have been fired out of a cannon.

[Xzavier @ May 21st 2007 10:54AM]

Maybe the penguine is calling upon the power of the Torvalds to make the MS logo FALL!

[dozx @ May 19th 2007 9:44AM]

He is right, I can only imagine how many patents Microsoft has violated belonging to other companies, I'm sure a lot of Apple's. You would have to be a fool to think otherwise just look at Windows, it has been a blatant rip off of Mac OS since day one.

[plaidpjs @ May 19th 2007 2:17PM]

Almost certainly because the "visual" similarities are what MOST people actually see. Looks and surface behavior are what define an OS to the mainstream market. Performance and operability run a close second.

And, although I do not discount Linux as a viable option to Windows, the mainstream consumer knows readily of only two computing choices when boiled down to the OS, Windows and Mac (how most refer to OS X outside of techies and Apple-users). The same holds true for Novell, but to a much greater degree.

Not to mention that, while the arguments may be repeated/rehashed/old, they are still valid. And, they become even moreso when you have Gates and Ballmer going on news shows saying that their new UI is completely unique and innovative and pointing to features that have existed in one of your competitors OSes for the last 3+ years.

[RT @ May 20th 2007 2:14AM]

NDS and active directory were both implementations of of open standards that existed prior to their conception

[Nathan M @ May 19th 2007 12:23PM]

No one should care, it's all just a big pissing contest anyway.

[jdragon @ May 19th 2007 1:09PM]

That's right microsuck, put up or shut up! Vista is a total rip off of OS X and it's not even that good!

[johno @ May 19th 2007 2:24PM]

Pure FUD. Citing a long list of patents - without specifics - is the same lowlife tactic that patent trolls use. It's abuse of the patent system. Microsoft is showing no class in a desperate scumbag move.

[Emceay @ May 19th 2007 2:56PM]

Microsoft can waste all of their money trying to sue the many distributions of Linux. And even then, people will still run them regardless of their legality. It's a lot like file sharing - the powers that be want to end it, but they have to contend with the people.. an impossible feat, for you can't incarcerate everyone.

[cdavenport4 @ May 19th 2007 4:15PM]

I'm so glad that Linus isn't taking this one lying down. Just when I though that Microsoft was trying to play nice. I guess there begging for another lawsuit and inquiry from the Justice department.

[WillTheSecond @ May 19th 2007 4:43PM]

What's that? Micro$oft trying to strangle the Open Source movement despite their own blatant copyright ripoffs? Surely not!

I want an Xbox 360, but I shall buy one second hand to reduce the amount of money I give to the profiteering bastards.

[Magallanes @ May 19th 2007 9:38PM]

Microsoft's in the right to sue Linux because they broken some patents.

In fact almost every software break a group of patents.

[Brett Neese @ May 19th 2007 9:56PM]

I think I read somewhere that about $23 or so of your license for windows goes into keeping other companies to shut up about patent infringement. For some reason I feel that very soon we are going to see a shift in power from Windows to Open Source.

[VB Project A @ May 19th 2007 11:35PM]

above articles are interesting
http://vbprojecta.co.nr

[josh @ May 20th 2007 1:15AM]

"What's that? Micro$oft trying to strangle the Open Source movement despite their own blatant copyright ripoffs? Surely not!"

If you are going to post something at least be knowledgable about what you are posting about. The chance that MS has ripped off copyright is very limited (they do run code from others but it is fairly certainly licensed or from a business friendly BSD style license). To copy code requires very specific intent and they would necessarily be aware of it and take steps to only do so appropriately (which is not to say a lazy dev on some less scrutinized project hasn't ripped off example code from some website). It would moreover be very difficult to establish that Microsoft has used copyrighten code (by someone other than themselves obviously) as only a fraction of their code is available to scrutinize.

Now per patents, the state of software patents is so ridiculously screwed up that every non-trivial function has some patent somewhere covering that behavior. EVERY major piece of software by Microsoft, OSS authors, Apple, IBM, etc. violate some patent (reference recent horribly screwed up patent ruling on MP3 decoding by Acatel-lucent for evidence) somewhere so likely both Balmer and Linus are correct in their accusations. Granted in a knock down drag out fight I think MS could prevail; they have the legal resources and the larger patent portfolio. Notice I said prevail. They wouldn't win, the resources required and the recipricol suits would make the cost not worth the payoff.

Ultimately this is one more issue of Balmer needing to shut the fuck up. Microsoft has done OK enough by him as CEO (detractor opinion aside, he has set this year up to be a very nice year for the company and in general his guidance of the company hasn't been bad, even if it could be better) but he can be a public relations nightmare. Its sad because he torpedoes the reasonable efforts of folks like Bill Hilf who runs the open source lab at MS. Why bother having an open source lab when you are just going to undo all their efforts?

[Mark @ May 20th 2007 10:35AM]

...Redmond should put its cards on the table so that Linux users prove 'em wrong, or better yet, "code around whatever silly things they claim."

Or, as the socialist EU wants, make all Microsoft code and property open for stealing by every hacker out there. I wish that MS would take these snivelling whiners to court and make them accountable. And hopefully end this nonsense once and for all.

[Xombie @ May 20th 2007 10:47PM]

Linux FTW.

[Fyb3r @ May 21st 2007 12:05AM]

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=linus+torvalds&word2=steve+ballmer

all I gotta say is....pwned. MS I hope you finally get yours!!! Heres for overcharging on underdeveloped software

[Propagandhi @ May 21st 2007 1:07AM]

Software patents in general are counter-productive. If we allow any software/OS manufacturer to patent core functionality to the point that it cannot be included in other software projects such as the open source movement, we're only restricting ourselves. Computers get better because of the work and input of the masses, not through the Microsoft Behemoth. The open source community puts back as much as it ever takes, if it has in fact taken anything. A lot of open source technologies have become STANDARDS for computing. Like, imagine if the world allowed microsoft to patent email, or the POP protocol etc. We'd be allowing a big stinking monopoly and taking all the fun out of the broad and varied computing we have now.

[Caelestis @ May 21st 2007 5:56AM]

Linus Torvolds is a real living guy? I thought he was dead or something.