Vista CableCARD Media Center PCs - what do you want to know?
By Ryan Block 
posted May 21st 2007 9:08PM
posted May 21st 2007 9:08PM
How does it compare to a TiVo Series3?
Well, the functionality of a Vista CableCARD Media Center is obviously quite similar, since at its core it's a CableCARD DVR. But as anyone who's played with a Media Center knows, there are plenty of nice perks to Microsoft's interface (like movie guides, web browsing, Media Center plugins, interfaces for things like Vongo and MTV, etc.). Assuming the machine you're getting has some horsepower, usage is seamless and everything is zippy and looks great up on the big screen -- unlike the S3's often-wonky not-so-HD menus and occasional lag.
Of course, for this extra power you're going to pay extra cash. A Series3 can be had for as little as $500 in some cases, whereas the price on the Dell XPS 410 we tested was upwards of $3400 (including the 24-inch display). Granted, you don't have to pay monthly fees with your Media Center PC like you do with TiVo, but a couple grand for a DVR is still a spicy meatball, so be sure you can do other things with it, too.
Was it easy to set up?
Well, that depends on a lot of things -- as we learned first-hand, there are just so many variables (moving parts, if you will) with a system like this. You've got a lot of failure points between a PC with Vista, your cable company and its cable lines to your place, the CableCARD and supporting that, the ATI tuner(s), and then how all that connects to your home theater rig. Assuming all that works ok (which only one of our two machines did), then it's a cinch. Definitely doable for your average-to-technically-inclined level user. No surprise, but we still wouldn't turn this over to our moms, like we might with a TiVo.
How much can users expect the DCTs to run?
Prices, as we understand it, haven't been firmly set in stone by ATI yet. Users should be able to expect to pay in the range of $250 for a tuner unit though. We wish we had a firmer idea, but assuming worst-case scenario, that's $500 for dual tuners.
How's the Xbox 360 integration? Is there lag and skipping?
It's awesome. It looks nearly identical to the native Media Center interface, unlike previous Media Center Extender implementations. Granted, you still won't be able to use extended codecs (like DivX, XviD, etc.) on your 360, but watching live and recorded HDTV was nearly the same experience. When fast forwarding, rewinding, and changing channels there's an oh-so-slightly delay as the stream rebuffers, but honestly we probably wouldn't notice or care too much if that was our normal setup.
We tested two Xbox 360s on our home network, both connected via 100Mbps Ethernet; our PC streamed a different HD stream to each Xbox simultaneously while also recording and playing a third HD stream on its main head. For the curious, network usage peaked at about 55%, but hovered around 25-40% with both streams; CPU never jumped higher than 50% usage when working with all three HD streams.
How do you get one?
Microsoft tells us most of its OEM partners are shipping very, very soon. You can order a high performance model from Velocity or Niveus now, though.
Can't I just add a cable card tuner to my Vista box?
Sorry, no. Vista CableCARD boxes are special units certified to meet CableLabs spec; they're loaded with special firmware, and the tuners are only sold with the units. Assuming you did get your hands on a tuner, you'd still have to figure out a way to hack that firmware onto your unit. Unfortunately, unless someone comes up with something crazy we just don't see how it can be done, short of buying a new unit. Yes, we're as totally bummed about this as you are. Blame CableLABS and their obsession with DRM.
Can you record TV to an external hard drive or NAS?
As long as it's an addressable drive to Windows, you can store your media there. Just needs to be connected with something fast enough to handle the throughput, so don't use a USB 1.1 drive (duh) or a 100Mbps NAS if you're recording and streaming multiple HD streams.
If you have two DCTs are you limited to two separate channels to your xbox?
You can only tune as many live channels as you have tuners for, but you can stream as many recordings as you have horsepower / bandwidth for. So assuming three people are watching on a two-tuner setup, at least one of those streams needs to be pre-recorded, unless two people are watching the same live TV stream in different rooms.
How big are the .ms-dvr files (for, say, 30 or 60 minutes of video)?
Video filesize depends most on what the content is and at what resolution it's broadcast. Everything is recorded and stored, generally, as MPEG-2 streams -- this isn't new to Vista CableCARD boxes. As you'd imagine, programs with less visual information compress better, and programs in SD are smaller than their HD counterparts. Still, here's a general sense of what you can expect (remember, your mileage may vary):
60 minute HD: 6-10GB as recorded (can vary, depending on type of HD, etc.); we had a 6.5 and an 8.8GB 1 hour HD program, so YMMV.
30 minute HD: divide above by two.
60 minute SD: 2.5-3GB+
30 minute SD: divide above by two.
MS has stated that two OCUR and two OTA are supported. I suspected if you hack past that you might have issues at some point.
I currently have a XBOX360, but I want to remove it from my setup, will there be video cards with HDMI output soon ( or maybe there are some that exist that I haven't been able to find )?
Here is my dilemma:
Right now is a horrible time to build/buy a new computer... a lot of standards are up in the air, especially if you are a media freak. HOWEVER, I HAVE to upgrade my rig in the next month, as my current one is a dinosaur...
I could skip the whole CableLabs certified ATI crap and go analog with OTA/HDHomeRun and maybe wait for a MCE DirectTV tuner to come out or even a standalone DCT... but then I'm left out in the cold if CableCARD/DCT catches on and I don't have one/can't get a standalone one... On the other hand, I could get a Dell/HP media center with DCT, pay extra $$$, have less upgradeability, but potentially get stuck with a dying CableCARD format... and $500 for 2 tuners!!
What is a computer geek to do!??!
So where di dyou get the rig from, and with what parts installed. What version of windows.
Model numbers and part numbers greatly appreciated
Can you have more than 2 cable card tuners. I know that none of the OEMs have the option, but say I purchased a second media center can I take the tuners and put them all on one system?
Where can we buy the the ATI CableCard tuners?
Cal
Can someone please explain why it is the cable company can tell me what tuner I can use, and what PC I can use that tuner with?!?!?!? This doesn't make any sense at all that cable labs can tell ATI not to sell me a tuner, and that if they do it can't work unless I make an offering at the MS vista altar... 47 different conspiracy theories come to mind right off the bat, but thought I should try to dwell in reality if possible...
Let me try that again... ;-)
That's awesome. I'm pretty sure that when we were testing v1 extender devices that the target platform was 802.11a only for SD content and since no extender devices supported HD that a wireless requirement was not even considered. Internally there was some discussion about what might be possible, but because the transport stream is unaltered and certainly not further compressed, that HD might exceed the working bandwidth of wireless systems from two years ago.
Today, there are wireless systems that combine multiple channels, providing over 100Mb/s theoretical, but that isn't an adopted standard really. If you can get HD to stream over that channel, I'd love to know both the bitrate of the source and what your connecting with exactly; if it is purely 802.11a, or if you aren't using one of those "cheating" devices that operate under 802.11a specs. Also, is this an urban, suburban, or rural environment? Do you have neighbors with wifi and if so how many and on what channels and signal strength do they opperate?
It's not to say that it isn't possible to make wireless streaming work, I'd just be careful suggesting that everyone will be able to do it so long as they have 802.11a.
I'm happy it works for you though.
OCUR? Probably never. The only reason Vista can, is that the system has encryption at all points in the system. All the DRM complaints in Vista that had everyone so up in arms a year ago, was so that this was even possible. There are several checks in the entire process that make sure that the system the tuners are on are certified by Cable Card, that the OS was installed with a specific key, and as I recall, it periodically calls home to make sure it can continue to opperate.
Trying to seperate that out to work on Linux is unlikely. If you want Cable Card, you play by their rules, or not at all.
You can have more than one OCUR tuner on a system. I believe if you look at the Dell site again, you can select two digital tuners.
On a side note. In an interview I read with ATi, they hate this deal with Cable Card as much as we do as consumers. If ATi had it their way, they'd sell us the tuners directly... they might still intend to do so. Dell has suggested that if you bought a 410 sans a tuner, that you would be able to add one at a later date. This would work because 1) their 410 system would have the appropriate BIOS to allow OCUR to work. 2) The OS that they install on that system when they sell it to you will have a Product Key that is in the range for approved OCUR tuners. Lastly, 3) all you will have to do is add 1 or 2 digital tuners.
Make note that the systems will still have to abide by steps 1 and 2 in the above scenario. This means that home builders and smaller OEM builders won't be able to create OCUR ready systems, but you might see larger PC manufacturers create systems that can be updated with OCUR.
MI said: Can someone please explain why it is the cable company can tell me what tuner I can use, and what PC I can use that tuner with?!?!?!?
The simple (and naive) answer is that they can't. You might even find a place to buy a tuner (ATi isn't the only manufacturer that is making these now, just the most prevalent and already to market). Now to approach this from the other direction, the cable company will send you the signal over the "cable" -- you are probably already receiving HD content today. It's the stuff in the middle that counts.
Cable Card is designed so that a DCR (Digital Cable Ready) television will be able to plug in the cable, plug in a Cable Card, and instantly watch whatever is being broadcast and allowed by your subscription. The allowed programming is encoded on the Cable Card and that provides the keys for decrypting the content. Because OCUR does not allow pay-per-view or on demand, it isn't a high priority for cable companies, and most of them will rent you a set top box that hooks up to that DCR television set. Cable Card certifies that each set they look at protects the signal, and does not provide a convenient way to pirate the content.
OCUR on a PC provides an interesting challenge. You have to use a combination of software and hardware to do the same thing TVs do in one cabinent. You might be able to save the stream to disk at any point in the process, so it is a "Piracy Threat" in the eyes of Cable Card and the content providers. Specific changes in how the data moves through the PC must be always encrypted, and Vista provides those changes. In order for Cable Card to certify the PC system, it must be a specific make and model that they have approved. It is a little like the FAA in their statement that cell phones could be used on commercial airliners without causing interference, but that every model cell phone allowed must be specificaly tested. To approve the PC, a special BIOS is created that works for that individual PC. The tuner, in order to comply, must check for that specific BIOS indicator, and the OS installed on the PC must be from a specific set of keys, thereby ensuring that it is the OS that Cable Card has certified. If any one of those pieces are out of alignment, you don't get OCUR on your PC.
Now, the cable company doesn't say if you can have a tuner or not, they just say that you must have a Cable Card certified system and Cable Card are only going to certify systems that they can go back to the content providers and certify are not going to promote piracy. Consumers are given the short end of the rope. You can either go with the system, or forego receiving content.
Here's the irony of the system as far as I'm concerned. It forces you to fit within the constraints of the system and offers you little options otherwise. If you choose not to watch Heroes on Monday nights, and would rather watch it on Tuesday on your way to work, you don't fit within the acceptable viewing patterns. For some people, the system that is in place will drive people to find content in unapproved of places. I subscribe to HBO... if I go find a copy of the Soprano's on BitTorrent so I can watch it on my cell phone, am I a pirate? According to the content owners, I am.
For what it's worth, I think Vista makes it possible for fewer people to be considered "pirates." I use that term loosely because I think the entertainment industry as a whole is largely behind the times. The fanatics and trend-setters are some of the largest supporters of content, but they are the ones who are unfairly criminalized for what should be considered fair use.
Sure, OCUR on Vista doesn't allow total freedom to manipulate your media. Your other option is nothing. I don't want to support OCUR on Vista because it suggests to the "powers that be," that consumers are OK with being treated like criminals. On the other hand, if I don't support OCUR on Vista, that will likely interpreted as consumers don't want choice. If we boycott movies, music, and television, will it send the right message, or will we instead sacrifice production quality on shows that we care about and would gladly support?
I just pre-ordered Heroes on HD-DVD, choosing to support both that show and the HD-DVD format... when I use a decryption tool on it to move it to a different format, I guess I'll be considered a pirate; I'll still sleep soundly that night.
Does this setup allow you to watch on-demand or ppv programs? I thought one of the disadvantages of using cablecard as opposed to a set top box was that cablecards did not allow 2 way communication with the cable system, and therefore on-demand and pay per view don't work. Thoughts? Facts?
Does it have this system have an OTA tuner as well as the cable card? If so, when you record a program that is offered on both tuners will it choose the drm'd cablecard or the OTA tuner? Do all cablecard tuned recordings get drm, or just specific programs/channels?
Okay, so the files are stored as DVR-MS files. But in XP MCE .dvr-ms isn't much of a format. You can strip it off with a simple filter installed in the codec chain. I'll ask the obvious question--can you use DirectShowDump (I think that's what its called) to strip off the DRM from a cable-card recorded show on Vista MCE?
I'll assume the answer is no. If you happen to know why (like the MPEG itself is still encrypted, and needs access to the cable card to decode itself), I'd appreciate that too. If so, I wonder how the streaming to XBox 360 works, since it obviously doesn't have a cable card to decode with... and whether you could simply capture the stream...
Far from me to try to be as knownledgeable as Ryan but here is a short overview of my experiences with a Sony XL3 that comes with 1 internal OCUR card and a Blu-ray read/write drive:
- without inserting a CableCARD in the system I can view or record NTSC, ATSC and Clear QAM signals. Notice the "or" between "view" and "record" as the system only has one TV Tuner... shame...
- I can even record all these programs to a blank Blu-ray disc
- the moment I pop in a CableCARD I can view or record the Cable content but cannot record it to Blu-ray
- I can, however, steam it (using Ethernet -- to address the point earlier about wireless) to my Xbox360.
- I can even watch the same file on the XL3 and the Xbox at the same time (sweet, no more watching the same TV show with the wife!)
- I can connect an external HDD and store content on it. I can see both the internally and externally recorded content in MCE
- BUT, I am unable to view the content stored on the external HDD on anotehr PC (as Ryan mentioned, the content protection behind OCUR is such that one has but limited "to go" scenarios -- in fact, it seems to be limited to the Xbox360).
this short summary is the result of personal trial and error as well as numerous hours on the phone with Cox and Sony.
here is some other stuff I have found out:
- you CANNOT buy a standalone OCUR device
- you can ONLY obtain it from a Cable Labs certified PC maker
- at this time, there are but limited options for CableCARD lovers: Sony, Dell, Niveus, Alienware
- also, I had some issues with CableCARD detection but a recent firmware upgrade from Ati resolved that
- now if Sony had shipped with 2 CableCARDS, had 1080p output, I would be a completely happy customer
- still, if you are looking for HD media hub, I recommend this product
My bedroom and media room are on opposite sides of the same wall... can I connect two different displays (mounted on opposite sides of that same wall) to the same PC and have them each act as independent consoles?
If so, how would Media Center handle a potential tug-o-war with the tuners?
Two questions:
-Anyone have details/expereince with power consumption during recording? Does the whole system need to be up and running to record, or is there some state between sleep and full power that a vista cablecard system can be in to record shows, particularly HD shows? In short, does this thing have to be running at full power all the time to replace my crappy cableco DVR?
-Anyone know of a list of current or soon to be makers for cablecard vista media centers? The list I know of so far is definetly: Dell, S1Digital, Niveus, Sony, Vidabox and Velocity
Probably: Alienware, Life|ware
Were you guys able to set up two tuners on the same computer? I have two external ATI Digital Cable Tuners. They work fine individually, but when both are connected neither works. Are there any known issues with this?