Hacked Xbox 360 firmware prevents banning

In today's episode of tit-for-tat, hackers have blocked Microsoft's attempt to ban their modified consoles. Just two weeks ago remember, Microsoft began checking and then banning Xbox 360 consoles from Xbox Live if the Big M found the gear to be modified in violation of the Terms of Use. However, new firmware -- a tat if you will -- was just released by the lively (to say the least) modding community making hacked Xbox 360s invisible to Microsoft's snooping; if they can't see it, they can't ban it. Now come on Microsoft, show us your tit. Erm.

[Fortyseven @ May 31st 2007 9:20AM]

BOOTY, BOOTY, BOOTY! (The Fox version!)

[$50 to whoever gets the reference.]

[matt @ May 31st 2007 9:20AM]

could you be more immature?

[DrF @ May 31st 2007 9:44AM]

It's a beautiful thing.

[Kenny Jeckell @ May 31st 2007 9:23AM]

Did you just ask to see M$'s tit?

[Karl Viklund @ May 31st 2007 9:25AM]

I hope Microsoft will come up with a solution to this. I support the bans.

[The person @ Nov 8th 2008 11:18PM]

BOOOOO

[ben.brase @ May 31st 2007 9:41AM]

"I hope Microsoft will come up with a solution to this. I support the bans."

Yeah me too, I hate it when companies tell me what I can and cannot do to the things I purchase. WTF!?!

[Ceralor @ May 31st 2007 9:58AM]

For those whining about how wrong this is, thanks for not understanding. Y'know those license agreements? Those are legally binding. If you are found breaking them, and the agreement says they can ban you from something if you break it, then guess what? They can ban you! Legitimately! But I have no sympathy for you.

Think of it like the VAC protection on some Valve games. It's there to make sure that everything looks right. It can't figure out if your modded firmware allows you to cheat or not.

[f0cus @ May 31st 2007 10:24AM]

You can do whatever you like to your 360 just expect to get banned.

[Morgon @ May 31st 2007 10:59PM]

No, you're absolutely right. You can do whatever you want to your own 360. Nobody can tell you differently.

However, you're missing the GIANT issue here.. people are whining because they're being banned from Xbox LIVE - a managed, private network that Microsoft has every right to dictate how people connect.
Microsoft isn't sending SWAT teams to your house to recover your tainted box, they're simply denying you access to their network. Fair is fair - you wanna hang out in someone else's house, you play by their rules.

[austin @ May 31st 2007 9:54AM]

Tat is the first instance. Tit is the retaliation.

Thus, hackers' tit--in response to--Microsoft's tat.

[tristanfey @ May 31st 2007 1:25PM]

True but if MS responds to this, then the roles are reversed and then this becomes the tat and MS' next move the tit.

[Binkles @ May 31st 2007 1:59PM]

actually, engadget got this one right. //austin's definition is correct, but the application is off. The tat refer's to the first move, technically made by the first modders. The mods therefore are the tat part. Unless Microsoft responds to the hack AND THEN does something ELSE to get a response from the modders it will remain that the tats are the mods and the tits are Microsoft's responses (and lets be honest, when's the last time Microsoft was truely preemptive on something, security flaws generally are "pointed out to them" in one way or another). So, though I don't know if engadget understood the whole reasoning behind it, they got this one right.

[screwthisplace @ May 31st 2007 10:12AM]

Legally binding? I don't seem to remember signing anything.

[Paul @ May 31st 2007 9:58AM]

i already flashed mine and im not banned! fuck everyone who supports bans!!

[wraith808 @ May 31st 2007 11:22AM]

You agreed to it when you signed up for the service. RIF.

[ThrustinJ @ May 31st 2007 10:14AM]

Wow, don't people have enough things to hack that doesn't affect other people? Sure you might want a bigger harddrive or quieter DVD drive, but this just goes to support all the a44holes out there that glitch/cheat in multiplayer games.

That is why Microsoft doesn't want people to mod/hack. It's because you affect other people when you do it.

[crucial @ May 31st 2007 10:22AM]

This doesn't allow any cheating or glitching. It only lets people play backups not run unsigned code.

[duckhunt @ May 31st 2007 10:17AM]

Buck Rogers?

[CowboyGA @ May 31st 2007 10:20AM]

Screwthisplace,
You don't have to sign anything to agree to it. You agreed to it when you purchased the item. If you don't want to agree to the MS's terms, then don't get MS's product. Pretty simple, eh?

Furthermore, while it's fun to hear about hacking systems, it all falls apart when hackers run unauthorized codes in Live games; that's when all the cussing 13 year olds are cheating and the games become pointless and frustrating.

If you want to hack the system, great, I love back-up copies myself. Just don't pretend to be dumb enough to think it's your right, and whatever you do, keep the hacking offline only.

Ban the Live cheaters before they become a bigger problem.

[John Doe @ May 31st 2007 11:35AM]

That's retarded. How the hell do you know what you are agreeing to if you can't read it. Yep I also agree to strip naked, stand on my head, on the first full moon of every month. But I didn't know that because the fucking agreement was in the box which was locked up in a case at Target.
I swear to god you people are fucking lemmings. Is it any wonder why this country is circling the drain.
Frankly I don't give a shit what the EULA tells me to do. I plunked down the money. I'll do whatever I damn well please with the hardware I purchased and if that means I want to turn it into a fish tank, or mod the thing I will do just that. If I was inclined to do that which I'm not since I don't even own a 360.
EULA are pretty much the spawn of Satan. The only reason to have one is to protect profits. I'm still waiting for the day I have to crack the seal on a shrink wrapped EULA on a book, promising not to lend the book out to anyone or I'll be charged with a felony by the FBI.

[akijikan @ May 31st 2007 1:07PM]

They can't place limitations one what you're allowed to do with the hardware But they can restrict access to their networks and servies based on the TOS.

Also the mods people are running allow the play of back up copies, not the running of unsigned code.

[Steve @ May 31st 2007 10:33AM]

Crucial,

That maybe so, but as was already said, there's no surefire way to tell what a user is doing with whatever hack(s) they've implemented in their system. All Microsoft can do is point out that you've hacked the system, and ban you for it (as allowed for in the EULA). I'm all for bigger HDDs and backup copies, too, but if there's no way to tell the difference between that hack and hacks that allow players to cheat in games, or otherwise disrupt other gamers' experience online, then all they can do is ban EVERYONE who hacks (again, as per the EULA) instead of letting the real scum get away with their crap just so that the more harmless hackers don't get the ban-hammer.

[hydrogen_wv @ May 31st 2007 10:27AM]

I don't know exactly how Live works, but wouldn't it be possible to give users the option to block hacked consoles from their games in some manner? That way if you want to have a nice fair game, its possible. If you want to have a glitchfest, that's possible too... AND no one gets banned!

I hate cheaters, but modding does not necessarilly mean cheating. I think that once I buy a product I should be allow to do whatever I want to it as long as I don't try to profit from any of the changes.

Oh, and btw, you don't have to sign something for it to be legally binding... They say.. "By clicking agree/using this product/etc.. you agree to the following terms" Or some such.. This is just as legally binding as throwing your john hancock down on a piece of paper, as far as i know.

Heck, even some loans for colleges can be 'signed' online without providing your signature... and I guarantee those are legally binding... a company isnt gonna loan you thousands of dollars with no way to guarantee they will get it back.

[Nando @ May 31st 2007 10:28AM]

LOL! "Microshat," "Asspple," "Engreatget." :D

[Rick K. @ May 31st 2007 10:29AM]

To all those of you who say this allows cheating, do your homework. The DVD firmware hacks ONLY allow you to run backups, and the backups have to be perfect. You cannot run unsigned code or modify the game files in anyway or the game will not play.

All the DVD firmware does is make the Xbox think that there is Xbox 360 media in the drive, when it really is DVD-R media or otherwise. The security sectors, PFI, video sectors, etc on the disk all must match exactly to what was on the initial disk (this is how Microsoft started finding modified firmware, by checking these portions of the disk, the new firmware release wont even allow backups to boot if these sectors aren't exact 1-to-1 duplicates of the original which is why Microsoft can no longer check *they hope*), therefore there is no way to cheat with a modified firmware.

I agree that if you mod the box, Xbox Live ToS says if they catch you you're out, and thats fair because its their service, but at least educate yourself on what the firmware does before griping about how it allows you to "cheat" on live.

[Mike10010100 @ May 31st 2007 10:30AM]

What we have here is a classic case of modders vs. cheaters.

Microsoft should be able to come out with a way to scan for unusual signs of hard drive expansion and realize that, duh, it's not cheating, and that when they detect firmware that helps cheating, they should ban.

And i'm sure i'm going to run into a lot of backlash for all of this, so let me summarize my comment for those that want to burn me right now.

Modders = good
Cheaters = bad

[Steve G. @ May 31st 2007 10:53AM]

Are you dense? In your own words and I quote "there's no way to tell the difference between that hack and hacks that allow players to cheat in games, or otherwise disrupt other gamers' experience online"

Um, yeah there is. The games have to be a 1:1 backup. There can't be anything out of place or the game doesn't run. That being said, if you're running a modded console playing an exact backup of the game you're golden.

If you're running a modded console playing a copy of a game and the copy has extra (or incorrect) code in it then the game doesn't play there by stopping cheaters.

That's the long and short of it.

[Steve @ May 31st 2007 11:01AM]

I'm not dense at all. In fact, let me point out to you that leading into the quote that you gleaned from my post, I wrote "but if." I don't claim to know how Microsoft checks for modding, nor do I claim to know how in-depth their checks go. I simply said that, IF they can only detect that a console is modded (in the most generic sense) and thus can't determine what specific mod/mods has/have been implemented, then the only recourse they have is to ban any and all detected mods, no matter how harmless.

And as I indicated before, I'm all for the harmless mods that simply improve your system. From the simple stuff like added padding to silence the DVD drive (or replacing it with a quieter drive) to things like increasing the HDD space or enabling the use of backup disks, all that is a-ok in my personal book. My book isn't Microsoft's book, though, and they made it clear that if they detect a mod, you can be banned from Live. That doesn't leave much room for argument.

[BooDaddy @ May 31st 2007 10:38AM]

I think your missing something. Sure you can buy the console and do whatever the heck you want with it. Mod it up!!! BUT, when you connect it to servers that microsoft owns, theres where the problem lies. You dont get banned from your Xbox. You get banned from the Live service.... Whats the problem? Microsoft isnt telling you its wrong to mod the hardware you own.... their telling you that they dont allow modded hardware on their servers/network.

Sure there are modders out there that like to get more storage, or use better DVD drives, but the fact is, there are FAR more people that use modding to cheat.

I totally support the bans.

So, MS isnt stopping you at all from modding the console you own. They arent even telling you NOT to do. They are however protecting the millions of folks that like to log onto Live and enjoy a fair game with other players.

Ever been playing a Ranked game in Halo 2 when some jerkoff starts using his cheats??? I dont pay 49.99 a year to deal with that.
BAN THOSE JERKS!

[Ian @ May 31st 2007 11:09AM]

Right, not RIGHT NOW you can't run anything but a 1:1, but what happens if next week someone has a firmware that does let you do that? Then what? They are trying to be pro-active in this to keep it under wraps before theres a hack out that is so widespread and they end up having to ban people AFTER legitimately playing people are already discouraged and quit.
You're connecting to a server that YOU DO NOT OWN. Therefore, they can do whatever they want in not letting you on. Its kinda like leaving your door unlocked because your friends come over and you just have them come in. Well its all well and good till someone starts coming over when you're not home and eating your food and messing up your house so that your other friends end up not wanting to come over because your house is filthy and smelly. MS is locking the door before that happens and only letting in people that are playing by the rules.

In short, they are nipping it in the bud before it can have a chance to ruin other people's experience.

[Sameer Surampalli @ May 31st 2007 11:05AM]

This pisses me off. I got my first Xbox banned because I modded it. Not all of us care to use cheats... Cheats piss me off, especially when people use them on Live.

I have a 360 now, but I'm not taking a chance modding it.

[Zeus the God @ May 31st 2007 12:40PM]

You're retarded.

You bought the product, yes, but that doesn't mean you get to use the product in a situation in which there are other people (online gaming) that you can take advantage of.

Also, you know what you are agreeing to because it says so when you first plug in your Xbox 360, when you sign up for live, or whenever you get a new feature to sign up for.

Modding your Xbox is illegal ONLINE. If you want to mod your Xbox, fine, just don't be crying about it when you get banned from LIVE. Remember, the Xbox is yours, but Xbox LIVE isn't.

[Dragod @ May 31st 2007 12:55PM]

Wow. don't you know that when sign up for Xbox Live it gives you the Terms and Conditions and asks you to accept them. And you did, or you wouldn't have Xbox Live. As soon as you accepted that you agreed that you wouldn't hack/mod. As soon as you hack or mod, all you can do is wait for the banhammer to fall.

[p-diddy @ May 31st 2007 3:47PM]

>> OMGWTFBBQ!? That's dumb. They can't blah blah blah...

Read Pro CD v. Zeidenberg.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=7th&navby=docket&no=961139

Shrinkwrap licenses are enforceable contracts, and you agreed to it. 0wned.

-p-

[aStopperBy @ Jun 1st 2007 2:33AM]

The reason why America is so great is because we recognize something called a PATENT. You don't like what Microsoft does? Spend $400 and make your own games and console.

[chris @ May 31st 2007 12:10PM]

here's the most important question ... where can i buy one of these?

[Robbzilla @ May 31st 2007 12:21PM]

Support? Don't support? Who cares? This is a futile attempt by MS, just like the 50 ROM Revisions on the PSP. The company in question will spend tons of money and time coming up with new ways to keep people on the straight and narrow, and it'll last for about a week until some bored teenager cracks the system. And then the company will have to start all over again to gain another week, if they're lucky! Look at the PSP, Microsoft! You're waging a losing battle! Put the money you're wasting into better content or drop the price of some of your games and up the quality. Make the games worth it to the consumer and most won't go through the hassle of pirating. You also have to accept the fact that some will. Doesn't mean you've necessarily lost a sale becuase some will always copy what they wouldn't buy.

[Dragod @ May 31st 2007 1:01PM]

If MicroSoft allowed backups to be burned, what's to stop those two kids down the street who love to play games together from copying their games and giving it to each other? Suddenly, Microsoft lost hundreds of Dollars. They're not only cheating Microsoft, but the developers and every person involved in making and marketing that game.

I'm sure Microsoft doesn't mind you having a Backup copy of a game, but they have no way to say "Yeah, he's keeping that as a backup." as opposed to "That game was never purchased, they only copied it from their friend."

It's best that people just stay away from hacking and modding. You won't lose your Live capabilities and you won't ruin anyone's Live experience.

[LJKelley @ May 31st 2007 1:19PM]

First of all, There is both a EULA for the Xbox 360 and then there is another Agreement when you sign up for Live. If you don't agree to EULA on a peice of software or hardware you are told to return it to the store (obviously within a few days of purchase) for a full refund.

Second, alot of us remember the Original Xbox and the Cheating on Live that came as a result of Modding. Yes I did have my Xbox modded for the XBMC and other kewl features. I did not expect (or try) to use it on Live. You can do whatever you want to your Xbox or 360 but do not expect Microsoft to allow you on live. You do not have a God given right to live.

Third. If the 'Backup' you are claiming is indeed a backup then Microsoft will see your Crackdown on maybe 1 or 2 consoles at the sametime for that serial code. However, I think if they see 10,000 360s playing the same serial that they are smart enough to realize its piracy. Its ILLEGAL. If you wish to change that, please talk to Congress not Microsoft.

[akijikan @ May 31st 2007 1:54PM]

change what? legalize piracy? of course not. That is not my intention. I can't speak to the intention of other people using modded firmware though.

[don shellings @ May 31st 2007 1:20PM]

i hope everyone who mods their console gets caught and thrown off of Live service, and i hope in the future they find a way to stop modding and burning of games altogether. it hurts the industry and dilutes gaming in general. good job microsoft for leading the pack. hopefully others will follow.

[namgorf @ May 31st 2007 1:25PM]

the xbox wont boot unsigned code, so you can not cheat with. the firmware just allows the xbox to boot specially crafted backup games. no hacking.

[Tommo @ May 31st 2007 1:26PM]

Funny. Robin Williams once did a sketch about Microsoft and Bill Gates, I believe he said something along the lines of (as Bill Gates)...

"At the moment, we have Information Technology. Soon, we'll have Total Information Technology... or T1T! Any while you're sucking at the T1T - we've got you by the motherboard!"

Nice.

[akijikan @ May 31st 2007 1:58PM]

lolwut?

[JSM @ May 31st 2007 2:14PM]

Wow, this thread must have cost the MS PR dept a fortune, all this astro-turf. On the outside chance that these are really xbox fanboys and not on the MS payroll - children, the click wrap license has as much binding legal authority as an oral promise - very very little, and IAAL. At best, it protects them from suits from people who paid for a product that included access to the Live service who are subsequently cut off. You are legally obligated to nothing with "click to continue" licenses and that is not going to change without an act of congress, and in particular one that supersedes state laws in most states. Than again, MS is not contractually obligated to provide you with xbox live, and could discontinue service tomorrow without being obligated to xbox purchasers in any way, so the current situation of tit for tat will continue.

[SuperChuck @ May 31st 2007 2:28PM]

The one "gotcha" that microsoft could be caught in is anti-competition. For example, if a DIY hard drive upgrade results in banning, there is a very strong argument that this represents an anti-competitive act. In principle, it's the same as your car's manufacturer voiding your warranty because you had someone else perform an oil change.

Personally, I think a lot of the DRM stuff is slowing progress. Companies are so concerned about people stealing that they keep getting in the way of those who are trying to move forward. I would be a very happy camper if I could rip all my games to a central server and play them from there, or download them. If I could do that, I would consider buying a second 360 so I could play in another room. Instead, I am tied to an optical disc.

[pmow @ May 31st 2007 4:52PM]

Microsoft doesn't stop you from modding your 360. The software will simply not work, and they are under no obligations to support it. (The EULA for the Xbox is for the software. There are no EULAs for hardware.)

And yes, when it comes to software, auto manufacturers use encryption that can only be bought from them...hence the $150 alternator, and the $600 computer.

[SuperChuck @ May 31st 2007 5:07PM]

it's true that they can't be responsible for a mod which causes software to stop working. However, if their software specifically checks that the hardware is Microsoft-branded, that borders on anti-competitive practices.

As far as your car goes, you can absolutely get third party parts. Tuners routinely install replacement software to get more control over the engine. Of course, if you blow up your engine, you're going to have a hard time convincing them it's warranty work.

[Josh @ May 31st 2007 2:38PM]

Not everything on a game disc is signed or encrypted. And you don't have to modify code to modify a game.

Textures, for example, could be made transparent on your copy of a disc so that you can see the player lurking behind a wall.

Hacks like this that allow burned discs to play also allow modifications like this to be made to those discs.