Canadian cable providers locking out Vista Media Centers?

Nearly a month after Warner Bros. axed advanced screenings in Canada while tagging priacy as the scapegoat, now Canucks are facing another bout with DRM right inside their homes. According to a lengthy list of complaints over at TheGreenButton, it appears that some Canadian cable providers (Rogers and Shaw, namely) are seemingly throwing the broadcast flag onto a questionable amount of content. Essentially, users who are trying to record said programming via their own Windows Vista Media Center setup are receiving all sorts of errors and messages informing them that the material (even on basic cable) they are trying to record is laced with "restrictions set by the broadcaster and / or originator of the content." Interestingly, it seems that the blame here lies more with the cable companies and not some glitch within Vista, as more than a few customers have received responses from their providers suggesting that they ditch the whole PVR idea and instead rely on the company-provided DVR (at a cost, of course). So, dear Canadians, are any of you fighting this same battle?

[ScOObyDoo @ Jun 1st 2007 4:55PM]

Ironic, since the only CC box is Canadian made (ATI).

[bobdole @ Jun 1st 2007 11:15PM]

if you read this website more than once a year you'd realize amd now &heart; ati... so we can no longer call them a canadian company.

[Jonhimslf @ Jun 1st 2007 5:01PM]

"It appears that some Canadian cable providers (Rogers and Shaw, namely)" Maybe it's just my southern Ontario ignorance, but are there any other cable providers in Canada that aren't owned by Rogers? It's not like the US where we have several major cable providers, I always thought there was Rogers or Satellite?

[Paul @ Jun 18th 2007 12:55AM]

Yes, there is Shaw. It is owned by Shaw. So yes it's your "Ontario is the centre of the universe" ignorance :) In the West from BC to Manitoba is Shaw.

[Jon @ Jun 1st 2007 5:13PM]

Jonhimslf

Us Canucks have a number of small time providers over cable as well in the west there is Shaw, which is not owned by Rogers. Here in Vancouver there are local companies that supply cable that have no affiliation with Shaw or Rogers.

As for the story...not surprising at all. Shaw is slimey that way. We had a blue screen with the shaw logo on our TV for nearly a day last year for most american networks and shaw's reply was there was something wrong with the source that Komo, Kiro and King were all out. I called a friend who lived across town and his cable was fine. They never did take responsibility but freely offered a rebate after much complaining.

[dom @ Jun 1st 2007 5:34PM]

Videotron has a stronghold on Quebec, and there's also Cogeco Cable that does business in Quebec and Ontario (2nd cable provider in importance in these 2 provinces). There are also some small local providers.

[Kurt MacD @ Jun 2nd 2007 12:03AM]

If you're wondering, up in the "peninsula" of ontario, (think, toronto area, but more like kincardine/tiverton area if anyone knows where that is) we have cable that was simply called "kincardine cable", we get quite a few channels 2-73 something and then a few hundred if you get digital cable.

[rawr @ Jun 1st 2007 10:46PM]

Cogeco, Mountain Cablevision and The Source are 3 different companies in Hamilton alone...

[Matt R @ Jun 2nd 2007 3:25AM]

It's not just Vista, MCE2k5 is has the same problem. From the times my friends and I have called Shaw, they've always insisted that it was something from the feed they were using (as it happens on random things, like really old episodes of Friends). Generally, a complaint to the CRTC is really the only thing you can do, as complaining to the lvl 1 tech support guy is not going to get anywhere.

[Mark G @ Jun 1st 2007 5:11PM]

Yup, I am avid Vista Media Center User and cancelled a Bell Expressvu Sub because of the protected content flags. Thanksfully I have a small local cable company that hasn't resorted to inserting flags yet. I know a lot of you yanks bitch about the FCC but at least it offers you some protection. Our equivalent, the CRTC is joke. They won't take any action over this.

[bobdole @ Jun 1st 2007 11:12PM]

(re: komo, kiro and king): what's ironic is those are all washington stations iirc... if you were to have unplugged your digital cable and plugged in a largish antenna, you'd have received those channels fine.

[Jonathan Mackin @ Jun 2nd 2007 10:06PM]

True enough...I wish I didn't live in a townhouse, I could throw up a large antenna otherwise and get the HD broadcasts of those channels. Someday though.

CTV HD and CBC HD come in fine with small rabbit ears...can't wait for more channels and maybe some repeaters for the Washington channels.

[psxp @ Jun 1st 2007 5:18PM]

Canadian companies are just as greedy and farked up as US companies. I hate Robbers (rogers) - I noticed the Broadcast flag embedded in a recording of Greys At.

[soulless2000 @ Jun 1st 2007 5:30PM]

Sounds like a class action suit waiting to happen.

[cm @ Jun 1st 2007 5:33PM]

I've seen the same thing in the US on adelphia (now comcast), although 90% of the time it happens with HBO. I'm pretty sure its a media center bug and nothing more. Deleting my drm directory would help, but the problem always seemed to come back. It also seems to be more of a problem with 3rd party decoders. If you search the green button they point to at least one patch in waiting that is supposed to address this. Apparently, the spec says that they need to put recording restrictions on broadcasts with a certain flag set, but they are supposed to let you watch them live. Ironically, I've seen the problem much more with mce2005 than i have with vista.

[Andre @ Jun 1st 2007 5:42PM]

Whoa, that's a really good reason for me not to get Vista MCE. I've got Shaw and really have no alternitive.

Bastards.

[-ardcore Canadian @ Jun 1st 2007 5:59PM]

Well I have Eastlink they are the provider in Nova Scotia, Canada... as far as I can tell they don't use any broadcast flags (c5 I think it is called) because I can use firewire from my HD Box (Motorola 6200 box) directly into my computer and I can record in HD Goodness... mind you our provider out here makes HD look like moderatly good SD... but that is another argument for another time! :)

George

[Sid @ Jun 1st 2007 6:17PM]

If you can't record then download it through bit torrent, Shaw's all for this.

http://www.shaw.ca/en-ca/CustomerCare/InternetSupport/Residential/Sharing/BitTorrent.htm

[Evan @ Jun 1st 2007 6:23PM]

Unfortunately, most Canadians have no legal alternative to our heavy-handed cable and satellite providers. Apple's iTunes does not offer tv show downloads in Canada. Microsoft's XBox 360 does not offer movie downloads in Canada. IPTV services are still available in only a few parts of the country. What are we to do?

[What do we do? We are driven to download videos illegally from the U.S. and buy imported bootleg DVDs, that's what!]

[XGM @ Jun 1st 2007 6:29PM]

Well more stupidity, last week was Pandora.com closing to the world and now this. Well then with the money i save from cutting cable i can upgrade my internet connection. Hello free music and TV anytime

[[e-mail] @ Jun 1st 2007 7:02PM]

"If you can't record then download it through bit torrent, Shaw's all for this.

http://www.shaw.ca/en-ca/CustomerCare/InternetSupport/Residential/Sharing/BitTorrent.htm"

OMG........ I realize it's to trick people into using less bandwidth to save Shaw money but still, that is funny.

[Syrrys @ Jun 4th 2007 12:41PM]

Wow. I'm actually shocked. Not even one of those "security" recommendations has anything to do with security. I guess I shouldn't be surprised... capitalizing on the ignorance of others is far too common.

[RandyG @ Jun 1st 2007 7:10PM]

It's really lame... analog CGMS-A is what we are talking about it, and it's being spewed over 1/2 the channels (anything worth watching) here in Canada. It makes Media Center useless as a PVR. FCC in USA has a $15K fine for putting CGMS-A on NON "video on demand" or "Pay per View" content, and an online complaint form to make it easy. CRTC in Canada says "CGMS-A? huh?"
Since there is NO LAWS, or RULES, or even ACKNOWLEDGEMENT of existence of such things as broadcast flags by any Canadian authority, the door is wide open for outfits like Shaw, Rogers, and Bell to abuse it, to weed out the competition and sell more $800 PVRs.
-
It is MICROSOFT'S responsiblity to not enable these DRM restrictions on media centers that are sold in countries where such DRM restrictions are not recognized by law.
-
Microsoft is selling something to Canadians which does NOT do as it advertises, record TV, because of restrictions which are only enforced in the USA.

[Randomness @ Jun 1st 2007 10:13PM]

It must be because they want to sell more PVR's, and not piracy, because the average home user wanting to record the ep of House MD they missed is not the one making the torrents.

There's not going to be a market for these media center pc's in Canada anymore if the cable providers do this. If a special version is released for canada that doesn't recognize the flag, well it won't be exclusive to canada for long.

[hams @ Jun 1st 2007 8:44PM]

If the problem is the broadcast flag, then the suggestion of switching to the cable companies provided DVR makes no sense because it too would not be able to record those shows.

kevin

[kballs @ Jun 1st 2007 9:06PM]

The cable companies' DVRs ignore all the CGMS flags because they're "authorized" (translation, they can do stuff that 3rd party boxes can't do, otherwise you might not be willing to rent the box).

[Brandon @ Jun 1st 2007 9:20PM]

I'm on rogers and this is happening to me frequently, however all I do is change the channel then change back and it's fine. As long as I can watch Colbert I'm happy.

[Mr. TiVo @ Jun 1st 2007 9:25PM]

Hmmm, haven't seen this on my TiVo. I believe that TiVo dosen't recognize broadcast flags. I have Shaw SD. Any other Canuck TiVo owners seen this?

[Mesonto @ Jun 1st 2007 10:19PM]

How about moving to Linux plus one of the many DVR programs (aka remakes of Windows Media). Anyone give this alternative a try?

[bobdole @ Jun 1st 2007 11:16PM]

amd ♥ ati

[Peter @ Jun 1st 2007 11:15PM]

Another Canadian TiVo user who hasn't seen this.

[Brandson @ Jun 1st 2007 11:55PM]

As far as I know, no Canadian cable companies support cable cards at all and have no plans to so Vista was preventing this guy from recording regular analog cable. It sounds more like another Vista software bug than a deliberate action by the cableco to block recording.

[T Watcher @ Jun 2nd 2007 2:42AM]

I use Shaw and have no problem watching anything, I use PCLinuxOS, lovely 3d just like Vista, plays media of all sorts, runs like a charm on a p3 with 500 megs of ram and it is easier to use than win 98. Say good bye to over priced software and come and join the revolution, go Linux, especially PCLinuxOS

[johnf76 @ Jun 2nd 2007 10:46AM]

DRM is built right into Vista (it's why I'm switching to Linux as an alternative). There's a great article by Peter Gutmann (Dept Computer Science University of Aukland)...Here's a quote: "Windows Vista includes an extensive reworking of core OS elements in order to provide content protection for so-called "premium content". This incurs significant costs in terms of system performance, system stability, technical support overhead, and hardware and software cost." and here's the link to his paper: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html

[whathefah? @ Jun 5th 2007 12:46PM]

Peter Gutmann's article has been widely debunked as pure FUD, you gain NO credibility by linking to it.

[Iain @ Jun 2nd 2007 2:45PM]

And you to can ask the CRTC why the hell they are not dealing with this crap from Rogers and Shaw with the lovely governemtn issue CRTC internet complaints system!

http://support.crtc.gc.ca/CRTCSubmissionMU/forms/main.aspx?lang=e

Iggy

[marcus @ Jun 2nd 2007 4:07PM]

I am canceling my cable for this very reason. for those who are interested - there is a lively discussion of this problem happening here:

http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/thread/190596.aspx

[Diddle @ Jun 2nd 2007 9:11PM]

I'm a Canuck Tivo user as well and I've had no problems. I wish I had a dual tuner box, but hey, I'm still rockin' my 31" 1989 Sony Trinitron so I'm not really concerned yet. ;)

[GoSensGo @ Jun 2nd 2007 7:01PM]

umm, there has to be a way to decode the single to avoid the message; or even hack the signal. there has to be a loop hole in this bull shit! i have soo many hours of T.V recorded with WMC 2005 edition, i'm planing to switch to vista but...Fcuk that now!

[Gyp Joe @ Jun 4th 2007 10:40AM]

I am using a shaw PVR that I purchased - I got tired of its crappy interface and reliability issues so I connected it to Vista MC via firewire.

It there is content protection, it has still allowed me to record the show in SD but it doesn't happen very often.

I tried to purchase another PVR from E-bay (which shaw said I could do) but then they refused to connect it to their network.

So now they basically have a monopoly on digital cable and stb's.

Truly evil...

Hopefully MS's implementation of IPTV will save us all and cut-out the middleman for good...

Vista with HD rocks btw...

[Syrrys @ Jun 4th 2007 12:41PM]

"Hopefully MS's implementation of IPTV will save us all and cut-out the middleman for good..."

Wait-a-sec... MS is going to save us from content protection restrictions? They've been one of the first enablers of this technology as far as I can tell. They would rather cut out the cable cos, sure... but only to yolk us more firmly to their own DRM cart.

unless you are somehow talking about a different MS? :P

[Gyp Joe @ Jun 4th 2007 1:00PM]

Ok try to follow along here: MS doesn't decide to protect content, they abide by the rules so they can actually offer content...

They sell software, not content...

And yes, their IPTV will be restricted up the ying-yang but at least they will be following hollywierds rules instead of making up their own like the cable co's...

If you don't like it, steal your content like everyone else...

[BR Admins @ Jun 5th 2007 4:29PM]

Someone is doing something- www.boycottrogers.com is a site where we're hoping to draw attention to Rogers' dedication to going against network neutrality. They shape bittorrent traffic, throttle encrypted traffic, and now are preventing people who want to tape their shows on their computers from doing so.

Cancel your account- show them you mean business. And don't do it silently- tell the world at www.boycottrogers.com

BR Admins

[CN @ Jun 5th 2007 7:55PM]

bwahaaha! "whathefah" aka Microsoft astroturfer or shill, no, Gutmann's article and thoughts have been upheld, esp. as companies like Creative face increased costs as MS disallows previous features. Vista's DRM increases costs to consumers and companies both. The cost analysis (no, don't reply with "Vista doesn't stop you from playing pirated MP3s1!!!!") shows that consumers lose in the long run as competition and Microsoft partners alike are forced to comply with the monopoly's insistence on DRM. Key and program revocation in the Vista MCE EULA, anyone?

It was only "criticized" by MS bloggers, and yet Mr. Gutmann replied to all of these comments factually. Something you have yet to do,

[GI Joe @ Jun 19th 2007 1:02AM]

This must be getting worse. I had it happen a couple times in the past, but more recently I noticed that less and less of my scheduled recordings are actually recording. I really like the Vista interface and don't really want to go back to MCE but I have a PVR to record my shows, not just the ones that Shaw says I can.

[prosonik @ Jul 15th 2007 6:30PM]

*cough* Mythtv *cough* Seriously. I am actually a fan of Vista/MCE. But people, the linux crowd has been touting this for years. For people that think Appletv or Xbox Live is the answer.. The tech that shaw/rogers etc are using is developed by the the companies, that your touting as the alternative. I do think the consumers should be kicking down the cable companies doors on this one. Could you imagine if your VCR stopped working, because the cable companies didn't like it? I'm so sick of paying 50-100 a month for content only to be told how/when I'm allowed to use it. I would pay $100 dollars a month, if Shaw would let me view what a want (HD Content), when i want it (PVR), with what software i want to use (Linux/Apple/Win).. I'm still shocked that Canadians are locked out of hd content if a)we don't live in an area that has HD OTA or b)We don't want to rent/buy a 500 dollar+ receiver. I'm a huge fan of bittorrent/democracy player until this mess gets solved. The record companies learned first, i think the cable companies are next up.

[Markus @ Aug 20th 2007 4:54PM]

My RCA Scenium PVR stopped downloading television schedules over Rogers cable in November 2004, just about the time Rogers began offering its own PVR-capable cable boxes.

For all you do Rogers, I hate you.