French government bans BlackBerrys: fears US and UK spying

Put down those freedom fries son, there's a xenophobic firestorm abrewin'. According to France's venerable Le Monde newspaper, French government officials have been banned from using the uber popular BlackBerry devices for fears of foreign spying. Specifically, the issue has to do with the fact that RIM's servers reside in the US and the UK. In other words, they fear US and UK spies. We kid you not. Of course, RIM responded with the usual assurances of security going so far as to say that even the US National Security Agency couldn't view the content of any Blackberry communicated data. Hell, its networks have even been cleared by the UK government and NATO for sending sensitive data. This is not going to be pretty.

[Thanks, Rahul]

[DutchGuy @ Jun 20th 2007 8:35AM]

As a (non-French) European I apologize for the retarded behavior of the French. But can we expect anything else from the people who refuse to use "bytes" and use "octets" instead?

[Jack @ Jun 20th 2007 8:51AM]

It annoys me when people post moronics comments such as those above. Obviously, either you don't follow the news at all or you just don't like the French for some reason. Now, considering the NSA (via AT&T and friends) spy on US citizens without even bothering to hide it's tracks, what could the US and it's longtime lackey the UK possibly have to gain from syping on French government officials? Information on Airbus contracts? On nuclear power plant contracts? Nah, must be Jerry Lewis. Yeah, that's way more likely. Get a life.

[Jason @ Jun 20th 2007 8:37AM]

Don't RIM's NOC's reside in Canada?

[Frankenstein Black @ Jun 20th 2007 11:53AM]

Yes...

[fred @ Jun 20th 2007 8:40AM]

O.....M......G The French really never cease to amaze me. I bet it's true though, we're probably all about spying on them, and trying to figure out the deal with why they like Jerry Lewis so much. That and trying to pinpoint all the mimes for surgical airstrikes.

[The Thinker @ Jun 20th 2007 8:42AM]

After we are done having a good laugh at the expense of the French, lets remember that the Bush administration thinks its appropriate to monitor all electronic communications without a warrant. Then lets remember how the government and any other entity gets our personal information from the likes of Google and Yahoo with a simple subpoena.

The French are being smart.

[svicente @ Jun 20th 2007 9:44AM]

Couldn't agree more. I think it's perfectly understandable and only naive people would think otherwise.

Spies will spy on everything and we just had a few years ago the Echelon scandal.

[derek @ Jun 20th 2007 12:54PM]

if your not doing anything wrong, you shouldn't be worrying

[andy @ Jun 20th 2007 2:01PM]

Lying makes you worse than whoever you're trying to disparage.

The warrantless wiretapping was only endorsed by the justice deptartment for INTERNATIONAL COMMUNICATIONS. I'm not sure, but I beleive that leaves a significant portion of "all electronic communications" on the table. For example, all transactions within the United States would not be included in INTERNATIONAL COMMUNICATIONS, would it?


Being dishonest does not make you clever or smart. It makes you a dishonest person.

[Cal @ Jun 20th 2007 9:00PM]

Both the UK and the USA are big on surveillance now. I don't know specifics on the situation in the UK, but I think they have reason to be hesitant to passing their sensitive bits through the USA.

[Tim @ Jun 20th 2007 8:43AM]

Then let them eat cake! oh, no wait, that doesn't fit..

[Bender @ Jun 20th 2007 8:43AM]

I am surprised that French is the only GVT to ban this, after all it is a bit understandable for a government to be worried of having critical data and communication taking care of by a company with server in a different company, it is like if the NSA, CIA or FBI decided tomorrow to host their mail server in Russia or Spain.

[Jason @ Jun 20th 2007 8:48AM]

The plural of spy is spies, not spys.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/spy

[BobTurbo @ Jun 20th 2007 8:59AM]

They will need to ban Windows and OS X also.

[timatl @ Jun 20th 2007 9:35AM]

this is true.

[Emre Aydinceren @ Jun 20th 2007 1:14PM]

Not really, Blackberry is runs a relay network service that goes to through their corporate data center. That's why couple of weeks ago whole Blackberry services were down.

Exchange belongs to each organization, your internal communication stays in your org, it doesn't go through a central data center.

[BobTurbo @ Jun 20th 2007 11:41PM]

No, but the computer.. the operating system... that all the data is on... is owned by American corporations. All that data can be sent through the operating system without anyone knowing.

[French dude @ Jun 20th 2007 9:05AM]

Ah good old French bashing (including mimes).
It's getting a bit tired that each time France takes a decision (especially if it's to distant itself from an American company), it has to be seen as a joke. RIM might say thir servers are secure but it might well be marketing. Were they to say they're not, RIM wouldn't do any business anymore.
Are we gonna take a Yankee companies word for it?

Naaa....

[Dan @ Jun 20th 2007 10:18AM]

Sorry bud, but RIM is a Canadian company.

[nintendo fanboy hater @ Jun 20th 2007 9:08AM]

because ya know the French are that worthy a spying target.

[DorianGray @ Jun 20th 2007 9:12AM]

Crap. I am *all about* French-bashing: but what can I say? Good call on their part.

Good of them to stand their ground. Like they have all thru history...

zing!

[Thomas Fitzgerald @ Jun 20th 2007 9:24AM]

The way Engadget have protrayed this article is misleading. The Goverment have only banned the use of Blackberrys for Government Officials, not the general population.

[Flying? @ Jun 20th 2007 9:27AM]

What is wrong with you ... of course it's understandable that a government don't want its sensitives data likely to be monitored by a foreign country ... this ban doesn't affect the civil population.

How stupid it is from you to manage to do some french bashing out of it. Sensitives manufacturers like nuclear powerplant builder, airplanes industry, military industry are most of the time backed up by their government ...

[Niviche @ Jun 20th 2007 9:29AM]

You're missing an important part of the information here: there is no ban of Blackberry in France, it has only been banned from ministeries, the two house of parliament, and the presidential palace. Blackberries are still totally legal everywhere else, which is basically everywhere.
Sources:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6221146.stm
http://www.liberation.fr/actualite/instantanes/histoiredujour/262358.FR.php?rss=true

Moreover, I agreed with Bender on this: the Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Eric Schmidt of this world probably don't send over sensitive data or information through uncrypted blackberries, it's probably a good thing to warn non-technology-inclined policy-makers about this.

[Mickey Jones @ Jun 20th 2007 9:33AM]

Why would anyone want to spy on the French? I assume they mean military spying and not stealing all their best recipes.

[noisia @ Jun 20th 2007 9:36AM]

thats the revenge for deleting the french fries out of the menu of the capitol/congress(?) refectory. HA!

[Sam Smoot @ Jun 20th 2007 9:44AM]

Wasn't there a post here not too long ago about the FBI using supposedly "Off" cell-phones to bust some organized crime?

And you're really trying to frame this French-bashing as unreasonable paranoia when it's a short leap to believe that the CIA might also be able to monitor data communications or cameras on the very same devices?

What makes Blackberry services any more spy-proof than any other cell phone? Would the Mafioso's have been safe if they would have used Pearls instead?

Is there any editorial integrity at all here? *Click* (RSS Unsubscribe) Maybe I should just stick to Wired or some publication that's held to _some_ sort of standard. Maybe even has an ombudsman or two.

[Frank Black @ Jun 20th 2007 9:45AM]

Those French! Everyone knows that U.S. corporations and the U.S. government always tell the truth and never, never, never (jamais, jamais, jamais) would do anything that wasn't honorable or Christ-like. I mean, that would be like torturing prisoners (only commies do that) or making up stuff to start a war, or even blowing up your own ship to start a war! Hehe... right.

[lance @ Jun 20th 2007 9:52AM]

Aren't RIM's servers in Canada? Wasn't that their defense in the patent case?

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/01/24/business/berry.php

[Sub @ Jun 20th 2007 9:59AM]

I am very surprised to see how engadget is framing this article. It really shows once more how engadget is manipulating news, or simplifying content. After all this website is almost acting like this administration has been.. caricaturing to the point of stupidity anything that does not fit to their standard of thinking.

[Chuckles McGee @ Jun 20th 2007 10:02AM]

Ho-ho! Now zee Americans vill never steal our baguettes!

[Mike @ Jun 20th 2007 10:14AM]

Of course the US and British government cleared it for sending sensitive data, they're not going to worry too much about spying on themselves! Its whether OUR data is safe from their prying eyes that is the worry. If there wasn't a trend of the US doing this sort of thing, it would be easy to dismiss this as silly paranoia. if they were doing this in 2001 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1357264.stm then I wonder how far its gone by now. BTW, I'm not french ;)

[John Stracke @ Jun 20th 2007 10:29AM]

"Of course the US and British government cleared it for sending sensitive data, they're not going to worry too much about spying on themselves!" -- But they could have room to worry about someone bribing RIM for access to the data.

[narowmind @ Jun 20th 2007 10:25AM]

The RIM blackberry supports end to end encryption of mail messages using PGP, like most email applications. If the damn frogs were so worried that we were snooping they would use the tools already available to stop boeing from stealing their airbus email. Of course the real news here is that the french are pissed to be dependent on yet more infrastructure that isn't french. If they cant figure out how to deploy PKI then they deserve what they get.

[sdsdv10 @ Jun 20th 2007 10:31AM]

Would moving the servers to Montreal make everyone happy?

[ecobore @ Jun 20th 2007 10:33AM]

yeah, comeon guys, I think you should post the TRUTH here rather than some tabloid type sensationalism... Banning these from Gvmt ministries is not such a big deal - frankly they should not be used for ANY 'sensitive' information. There is no surety that the servers are secure and if gvmt policy and contract details start filtering their insecure way around the world before being issued it could be hugely embarrasing. I read your headline and as I live in France I was pretty shocked, but basically the ban is there for a reason and is very limited. If you read about the Echelon spying network (mentioned in the previous post,) the paranoia is not really paranoia at all! It is pretty sensible! I quote "The Echelon operation is based at Fort Meade in Maryland, America, and at the UK's spy centre, GCHQ in Cheltenham. It remained a shadowy system until an ex-director of the American CIA told French newspaper Le Figaro that it was being used to track electronic messages sent by European companies."

[leftbrain @ Jun 20th 2007 10:35AM]

Of course blackberry isn't the only one. In fact someone has to think about the way british/american coalition behaves. Europeans are not americans and also are not willing to. There is too much anglo-saxonism in the world. As an individual, I have no way to avoid being scanned... But I hope european governments have... i'd pay a special tax for that... even if our american friends would peemptively bomb data centers in Europe. American security paranoia is a pain in the ass...

[Grey Acumen @ Jun 20th 2007 10:46AM]

Sounds to me like the French government is doing something it shouldn't be doing and is now going "Oh snap, we could get caught pretty damn easily, time to cover our asses!"

[noza @ Jun 20th 2007 1:57PM]

Yah, like blowing up Canadian ships in New Zealand harbours?

[ct @ Jun 20th 2007 10:57AM]

I do believe its actually illegal to store sensitive data on foreign servers in some Euro countries. I am doing some work for a Swiss company at the moment. We were looking at a certain CRM solution that stores its data on U.S. servers and it was nixed due to the fact the data would live overseas. There are lots of 'information acts' in Europe initiated after WWII to keep a bit of a handle on things after that whack affair.

Lemme tell y'all - if Rimm was a Frog company and George Bush's missives and stupid jokes were streaming through a data center somewhere on the outskirts of Lyon, Sean Hannity would stain his tighty whities.

Also, last time I looked, France was still one of the world's most powerful economies, nuclear nation, leader in the EC, etc. You enlightened cats who say things like 'duuuuhhhh, who would want to spy on France?' surely never leave your basements in suburban Little Rock.

Here's my cheek. Bitch slap it.

[V @ Jun 20th 2007 11:24AM]

here is a link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_with_nuclear_weapons

france a major nuclear force, ha! russia and the u.s. thats it! frances economy is based on tourism, they do not have good ideas anymore(remember napoleon, he was the last good idea, allies have been cleaning up their bad ideas since), so they dont have a 'think' economy, who the hell would care what they have on a pda. my advice for them is to paint the eiffel tower another color so the world cares to speak of them and care they still exist

[ct @ Jun 20th 2007 11:45AM]

Thanks for your enlightened view! I'll bite.

Take these companies: http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/global500/2006/countries/F.html

- AXA: world's biggest insurer
- Carrefour: Biggest retailer
- Two of the world's biggest banks
- Huge defense (air liquide, Dassault)
- Vivendi Universal
- Meetic - biggest Internet startup in Europe

I dunno.. they seem to be 'thinkin'' to me.

[Androse Rosewood @ Jun 20th 2007 11:07AM]

Wow, Engadget is falling low these days.

1. The spying the gov is afraid of is economic of course: multi-billion euro A-380 contracts and such. A huge amount of ressources of spying ressources are spent on industrial spying these days.
2. The concern is legitimate: the data is transiting (unencrypted I guess) by a private company's servers, outside of french juristiction.
3. About "being cleared by NATO"… do you really thing that a national army (of any country part of NATO) would trust a canadian private company for the sensitive communications of it's generals? Of course not.

What a silly post.

[V @ Jun 20th 2007 11:09AM]

what would the french have to offer in the intelligence world? nothing. without allies half of them would be speaking another language, their military is barely existent. what information at government level isn't already on the table for the world to examine?
the french need to accept they are a non-entity on the world stage, this spying story must just be a ploy to remind the world they still exist, and to boost the tourism dollar

[Big Mike @ Jun 20th 2007 11:12AM]

Unless you guys are all drug dealers, spies yourself, or a sex offender who the hell cares....

Monitor my email and my 1800 contacts receipts... woopdi do

Just when i thought the French got some sense knocked into them (electing sarkovsky) they go ahead and do some dumb shit like this....

[brutha @ Jun 20th 2007 11:20AM]

we need to spy on them. after all they welcomed the Nazi's

[Frenchdude @ Jun 20th 2007 11:44AM]

Real smart!

For those who didn't get it, the gvt fears that economical - and to a lesser extent political - information get in the wild.

[blueboy @ Jun 20th 2007 11:22AM]

The French concerns are legit. In fact, I think its pretty stupid the way blackberry has there system arranged. A company or government can't guarantee the security of there information if the data lies outside of of it's own institution much less country. The truth is, if anyone want's to collect information on any company or government assuming most of them use blackberry's they can skip breaking into the institution and find a way to tap into RIM's secure servers. Just because RIM says there secure doesn't mean the security is unbreakable and it's pretty naive for anyone to believe otherwise.

[mathew @ Jun 20th 2007 11:28AM]

I'd just like to add that it's not about RIM handing over data to the NSA. They don't have to. Look up the details of the ECHELON system, described in an EU government report. When the e-mail flows from a French Blackberry device to RIM's servers, it goes across the US and Canadian network infrastructure. That automatically puts it within reach of ECHELON.

http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/04/07/1246259

[Dimitar Vesselinov @ Jun 20th 2007 11:37AM]

Industrial espionage
"Industrial espionage or corporate espionage is espionage conducted for commercial purposes instead of national security purposes.

The term is distinct from legal and ethical activities such as examining corporate publications, websites, patent filings, and the like to determine the activities of a corporation (this is normally referred to as competitive intelligence). Instead, it describes unethical or illegal activities such as theft of trade secrets, bribery, blackmail, technological surveillance and even occasional violence. As well as spying on commercial organizations, governments can also be targets of commercial espionage—for example, to determine the terms of a tender for a government contract so that another tenderer can underbid.

Industrial espionage is most commonly associated with technology-heavy industries, particularly the computer and automobile sectors."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_espionage