New York City to get London-style "surveillance veil"
By Donald Melanson 
posted July 9th 2007 5:51PM
posted July 9th 2007 5:51PM
It looks like New York City will soon be seeing a slew of new ever-watchful eyes, as The New York Times reports that the city is set to get a London-style "surveillance veil" that would eventually consist of thousands of cameras monitoring vehicles and individuals alike. Dubbed the Lower Manhattan Security Initiative, the system will initially include more than 100 cameras that are expected to be in place by the end of this year, each of which will be able to read license plates and send out alerts is suspect vehicles are detected. That appears to just be the tip of the iceberg, however, with some 3,000 public and privately-owned cameras set to be put into service by the end of 2008, along with a series of pivoting gates that'll be installed at critical intersections, giving authorities the ability to block off traffic at the push of a button. From there it'll apparently grow even further, with the entire operation expected to be up and running by 2010. No word on head-mounted cams as of yet though.
Are we the people actually going to let this happen. We are the voice of this nation.
Despite being very pro civil liberties and very opposed to Bush's ideas of wiretapping and such, I don't actually have a problem with this. There are tons of private security cameras, people have cameras on cell phones, there are webcams and traffic cams. When you are in a public place in a city, there's an understanding that you don't have any right to expect privacy. If anyone else can carry a camera in public, then the police out to be able to also. However, I would have a problem with any deception tactics being taken to try to give people the impression they are not being watched when they are.
I find it a bit offensive that this would be compared to nazism. If you can be watched by a cop with his eyes, then why not remotely? I'd actually rather have a video tape than the eyewittness word of a cop if I was in trouble, but then again... there is a need for some degree of regulation to assure that cameras are not used unfairly. IE: edited video, using to zoom into windows of private residences...
That's the thing that scares me, Buzzo. It starts as cameras, then what? Minority Report? Stopping crimes before they happen?
There is no way to regulate what people do with the cameras. It's not that I don't trust the police, I just don't trust anyone. Jesus, did you see people's reaction to the Geek Squad debacle when they were copying porn off people's drives? Everyone was like "What? I'd do it too!"
People, as a whole, are stupid and untrustworthy. I don't want them video taping me all the time and not just looking in my windows, but recording it. There is no way to prevent it and no amount of oversight will convince me it won't happen.
-p-
And the Nazis reference was just playing the quote game.
Jeez! ...no love for the quote game! In comedy, there is usually a "straight man" and the "eccentric". Maybe we weren't eccentric enough?
"You measure a democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists."
Abbie Hoffman
YAY quote game!
Apparently, people think that protesting will do no good. I think we need to resort back to you never know until you try it.
Another reason not to go to New York City.
Of course since crime has been eliminated in England their methods should be brought here. /s
I can't speak for everyone but I am not expecting "privacy" in public. That would be a stupid arguement and/or comment on my part. I believe what most people are arguing is that this technology, in the hands of misguided leadership will cause more problems than it will solve. In our society, we have something called "civil liberties". Any interested parties can Google them. While I was serving in the military, we had something called CID...an internal affairs of sorts. They released approved and unapproved locations that you may visit (bars, gas stations, etc.). If you visited an unapproved location you were subject to UCMJ law. They would hang out at these locations to catch soldiers on purpose. They would also infiltrate units to catch people visiting location deemed unapproved by the government. If this is the direction that they're leading us to and society approves, this is a truly scary world. I believe that since I served in a combat unit and put my life on the line for civil liberties, I should expect the government to fulfil their end of the bargain and give me them. When those people that don't care about their civil liberties or freedoms put their life on the line for their country, they can tell those people that did that they don't know their ass from their mouth.
Hey bro - I have the most respect for your service. You are more honorable than me! But that does not make 2 + 2 = 5... and that does not make this an issue about civil liberties. No more liberties are violated than by a policeman walking down the street lookin around with his own two eyes, speech is no more chilled in public than by having a police presence at a rally (which is legal). It is "force multiplication" (a term you should be familiar with having served). If you are waving a fully automatic rifle in public, it does not matter (legally) if the cop on the street sees you, or if the cop monitoring in the operations center sees you. When you are in public, there is no reasonable expectation of privacy.
As I said above. It is not a legal issue; it is not about protected civil liberties. It is about right and wrong and your beliefs about what role the government should play. The government has the legal right to increase confiscatory taxes, and I believe it is wrong, but it is certainly not unconstitutional or a violation of civil liberties. Complain to your elected official, not to the courts.
Chris,
...and I believe that most of us understand your point of view (and the context of the law that allows it). I think a lot of us that are against it are arguing the future repercussions. A great example would be the occupying of a certain middle eastern country. While some believe it is necessary in the present, some may fear the long term effects and precedent it might set. ...imagine cameras on the light post by your house, by the fire hydrant and a drone flying above your house. While I'm not saying you are wrong, you did present your view in a derogatory manner. ...and it seems that before you speak to denounce peoples' stances, you should check how much they sacraficed to defend those opinions and stances. Respect for everyone's opinion means a better solution for all.
You really think this is for your protection?
You stupid stupid moron.
Remember everywhere you work and everywhere you shop has cameras.
the Omni-present government presses on even over our rights!
I find it amazing that people go on about "liberty". What about the liberty to feel safe? what about the liberty for people to have a chance at prosecuting the criminals that attack them?. Get off the paranoid Orwellian trip, and "look at clever me i can quote a historic person". Stop using this as an excuse to reinforce your American feeling of superiority too as many have.
He is another example; 2 years back a 15 year old girl in my town was walking home along the outskirts late at night. She got followed by a dangerous rapist, who dragged her into a bush. However, this was spotted by a camera operator and the cops where there in seconds. She was saved from being raped and murdered and he was prosecuted for this and another rape and attempted murder. Now, what about the liberty of this girl? He liberty was saved by the camera. Now if my liberty was brutally taken away from me because i was caught on camera walking home from a bar (which i dont think it was), then so be it. If it saved that one girls life then to me it's worth it. People need to be less selfish, and look at the greater good and start worrying about the things their government is doing thats really dangerous, like destabilising the world the way it doing right now.
If the girl was in our country (America) and carrying a gun and/or tazer and/or mace, she wouldn't have that problem...would she?
In a neighboring town (Chicago area) of mine, there was a rape/murder also. This took place in a very lighted and heavily monitored mall parking garage. Security never caught this and they were unable to make the face out (masked guy or something) enough to ever identify the person.
I, personally have had a police officer pull me out of my car and call five squad cars for parking in the wrong parking space. ...and I hope nobody has forgotten the Rodney King or countless other police brutality trials. Most recently a cop who beat a Polish woman in Chicago for refusing to serve him any more alcohol after he was completely intoxicated. Afterwards, the tape was released and SHE was harassed by police. The police themselves didn't arrest the offending officer for months! Trial is still pending...
...now imagine these same people with the ability to follow you around anywhere you go.
We don't live in the same world and your solution might not be right for us. The US has a VERY large population. If you go to downtown Chicago, imagine (I'm assuming you're from the UK) Picadilly Circus (in London) during a busy weekend and add a few more million people. ...now multiply that area by at least a thousand and there you have one small area of one of our cities.
Part of the success of the US has always been based on the formation of a society to escape an overreaching government. ...let's not mess that up now, shall we?
I would like to refer you to this story which is VERY recent.
http://www.myfoxchicago.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=3735415&version=9&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1
This is a private video system recorded by the restaurant. The video shows the on duty police officers being waved off after the off duty police beat people. One of the cops also grabbed the victim's cell phone and prevented any reports of the incident. Oh...during the TV report, they said the crooked cops would likely get off because it's hard to tell who started the fight without audio and eyewitnesses. When these people are sitting behind the cameras, who's to protect me? ...this is the world that I live in.
Endless, intrusive surveillance, yet another infringement on our rights by the gov't. Add it to the ever-growing list of violations:
They violate the 1st Amendment by opening mail, caging demonstrators and banning books like "America Deceived" from Amazon.
They violate the 2nd Amendment by confiscating guns during Katrina.
They violate the 4th Amendment by conducting warrant-less wiretaps.
They violate the 5th and 6th Amendment by suspending habeas corpus.
They violate the 8th Amendment by torturing.
They violate the entire Constitution by starting 2 illegal wars based on lies and on behalf of a foriegn gov't.
Support Dr. Ron Paul and end this madness.
Last link (unless Google Books caves to the gov't and drops the title):
http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/book_detail.asp?&isbn=0-595-38523-0
Even scarier than the government's over-reach of power over its own citizenry are the mindless "safety" citizidiots who are in favor of creating an Orwellian society.
To Chris:
You say, "Also, where I am at least, Washington, DC metroplex, there are multiple traffic cameras at almost every intersection."
Dear Chris, precedence doesn't equal justification.
Scary scary brainwashed Neo-Nazi Americans.
Sept. 11 was the thin edge of the wedge, if fact, to effect a gradual abdication of rights to privacy. Try to imagine this happening without the wide-spread paranoia and fear that 9-11 has produced. If we begin to put the events of that day in the back of our minds government psy-ops is ever ready to introduce another so-called terrorist alert to maintain the fear and paranoia and justify their ongoing agenda of total control of the country.
The UK cameras are used by the Masons to blackmail and rob citizens. High crime continueas under the cctvs. They always seem to fail at the worst time, ie on the 77 bombers bus and in all the carriages, at the railway platforms in Madrud nombings and at the check in counters in 911. Just a scam to keep you scared and big money for their buddies, who supply them. Check out http;//www.rense.com/general77/fulf.htm and find out whats going on on this rotten planet..
NYC...part of the original USA. sad to see what it's become...and still becoming. Yet, people think it's OK. What are they teaching in schools now-a-days? Or not teaching maybe!
I wonder how long upstate will put up with NYC before it cuts it off and let's it become it's own state?
Call your local representative and complain... Don't just let it happen you wimps.
Who or what company is going to get this "no-bid" contract to install all of these camaras? I'm sure I can guess!
Who cares what they do in Bloomingidiots Paradise! You couldn't pay me enough to live in that commie shithole of sewer.
Who's going to watch the moles in "Homeland" Security, the NSC, FBI and White House as they plan and give the execution orders for the next false flag terrorist attack...and all those to follow, both those that don't go off and those that do.
if we really want crime and all these geopolitical problems to cease we should be surveilling the police and the politicians ... think about it ... it isn't so much about weather there are surveillance cameras on the streets or not as it is about weather there is a balance of power between the citizenry and the government ... information is political power ... when they know everything you do and you know nothing of what they do you are living in a 1984 police state ... at least half the people in office are there for their own personal gain, not to serve progress ... it will not be possible that these cameras will not be used for political purposes ... increased surveillance is all about control of the lower classes by the upper, between which there is allways a state of repression and conflict ... i don't think we should authorise any more surveillance untill we know how much we are being surveilled now ... if it were all about crime control we would refer to the nsa cameras that watch the harbors to see who did or did not dump his wife in the bay, rather than waste several million on a long trial ...
I support having cameras watching us. And I also support having 666 stamped on our foreheads. Anyone who doesn't have 666 stamped on his forehead is a terrorist!