As we told you in
March, the technology-bucking drivers of New York City have put their collective foot down and said "no" to GPS systems in city taxis. The New York Taxi Workers Alliance, a non-unionized group with more than 8,400 members, claims it will call for its drivers to strike if city leaders don't retract plans to install GPS units in 13,000 cabs. No new information
there, but recently the NYTWA announced that September would be its target month for the walkouts, putting a very real timetable on what would be a crippling move for the city.
If you'll recall, the touchscreen devices would allow passengers to pay by credit card, check the news, and map their taxi's location. The systems would also track pickup and drop-off points (information taxi drivers already report), but cabbies fear their employers will use the information to
keep tabs on their whereabouts. The NYTWA plans to specify the date and length of the strike next month, so you'll know more when we do.
posted Jul 26th 2007 2:30PM
so....people will have to walk. or take the subway. Is that really so bad?
I wonder if this will work. I know I can afford to walk. But I don't know if a cabbie can afford to go unpaid for an extended period of time.....
And what might happen if a taxi driver takes a scenic route?
Cabbies also fear passengers will be able to see that the driver is taking them on a profit-padding drive.
Completely agree. Unless I'm in the Cash Cab and they are paying ME to ride, I would love GPS in taxis to know the shortest route and additional info. Obviously this practice of misleading passangers to get a quick buck is prevalent enough that all cabbies would STRIKE? Seriously, there must be a taxi mafia.
The shortest way isn't always the fastest in the city.
The fees are structured such that the cab drivers have *far* more to gain by getting a lot of small fares than by one large one. In short, they want to get you in and out of their cab as quickly as possible, they have no financial incentive to take you on the scenic route.
@craig
True, the short route may not be the fastest but as someone who travels for work I've found it's imperative to figure out routes on your own. Cabbies will screw you over if they know you're from out of town. It's that simple.
I do believe this is the real truth.
What difference does it make if their employers keep tabs on them? They're supposed to be working and driving around picking people up anyway.
If they're not doing their job then it's no wonder why you can never find a taxi.
I say fire all of the drivers and hire new ones.
Collectivism sucks!
What a bunch of crybabies!!! The only reason a driver has to not want the GPS is because they are spending a lot of free time being lazy instead of doing their job! If they don't like it then they need to go work somewhere else. I know there are plenty of people who would be willing to drive a cab with the GPS system installed.
Except that if they don't pick up people, they don't get paid... Taxi drivers don't get paid by the hour. They get paid by the mile only when they have a paying passenger.
I dont know if its still the same, but cab owners (more appropriatly medialion owners) "rent" out their cabs for 12 hour periods at a flat rate. What you do with your cab is up to you...you just need to pay your daily rent and anything above is yours to keep. The way its set up, the system actually penalizes lazyness since they have to meet a bare minimum threshold (the rental fee) and can keep everything above it.
I can somewhat understand that, but at the same time, when you drive that cab then you are working for that company. Lets say you are working for sears, not directly but maybe making adjustments to the fire alarm or doing electrical work. They have cameras that watch what you are doing but is it a big deal? Nor really. And all this system does is track where the cab is and when you have a fare. It makes no changes to how many people you have ot pick up. The rules are still the same in that case. Either way you keep any profit, and at the same time it gives the passenger something to do while waiting to arrive at their destination.
Question: Are an NYC Taxis considered a company own vehicle? Some? All? None? Individually owned? Medallion?
They are medallion nased, but last I heard they cost more than a house to get. So the medallions are normally bought by a larger company.
Unioninzed scumbags. Fighting any kind of technology that benefits the consumer and makes their job any less corrupt.
"The New York Taxi Workers Alliance, a non-unionized group with more than 8,400 members..."
RTFD
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck... they are organizing a walkout as a means of "collectively bargaining" their way out of mandatory GPS units. Even if they do not fit the official definition of a union, they sure as hell are acting like one and talking like one.
a gps service doesn't send location info out. If the employer wanted to spy there would have to be some kind of local transmitter and local reciever. or a data logger so they can check where they went at the end of the day.
Normally the "if you've got nothing to hide, what are you worried about?" argument is bullshit.
But in the case of the employer knowing whats happening with their vehicles, and passengers being able to see proper routes... If you've got nothing to hide, what are you worried about.
"a gps service doesn't send location info out. If the employer wanted to spy there would have to be some kind of local transmitter and local reciever. or a data logger so they can check where they went at the end of the day."
---Then how do police catch people they are looking for via their cell phones?
"Normally the "if you've got nothing to hide, what are you worried about?" argument is bullshit."
---Who said anything about hiding something? That is the oldest, lamest argument out there. It is about your RIGHTS! Go read the 1st 10 amendments in the US constitution, then EXERCISE IT!
"But in the case of the employer knowing whats happening with their vehicles, and passengers being able to see proper routes... If you've got nothing to hide, what are you worried about."
---That statement makes no sense. The employer’s dose not know what happen to their vehicle??? Don't they have to go back to the garage at some point in time? Somebody's got to know something!
"Passangers being able to see proper routes..."
---You my friend have NEVER been in a NYC cab. NYC taxi drivers, most of them know every street in Manhattan and MOST of the traffic at almost time of the day at any location!
"If you've got nothing to hide, what are you worried about."
--- I've got nothing to hide. However I don't want anybody know where I am at whenever he/she/they deemed for THEIR reasons necessary.
I am worried not about the technology, but about other people plan/could use it for THERE own personal use. If I want to get tag I’ll get tag VOLUENTAIRY. Don’t compel me to do it!
After all of the taxi driver get tag, and public transportation, the very last voluentairy/mandatory thing is citizens cars. Dont worry... congress will just simply pass a bill and everybody will say yea we need this. Too bad rush hour congestion won't go away afterwards!
"Then how do police catch people they are looking for via their cell phones?"
--Thats done with local equipment. installed in the local cell network, interfacing with software in the phone. PAIRED WITH gps.
"Who said anything about hiding something? That is the oldest, lamest argument out there. It is about your RIGHTS! Go read the 1st 10 amendments in the US constitution, then EXERCISE IT!"
-- I have read them. Your employers ability to make sure you're doing your job wasn't mentioned.
"That statement makes no sense. The employer’s dose not know what happen to their vehicle??? Don't they have to go back to the garage at some point in time? Somebody's got to know something!"
--Yes, because back at the garage, all the cabs magically start to talk and tell the bosses about all the off the meter cab rides that happened.
"You my friend have NEVER been in a NYC cab. NYC taxi drivers, most of them know every street in Manhattan and MOST of the traffic at almost time of the day at any location!"
-- and know the best ways to drag it out.
"I've got nothing to hide. However I don't want anybody know where I am at whenever he/she/they deemed for THEIR reasons necessary.
I am worried not about the technology, but about other people plan/could use it for THERE own personal use. If I want to get tag I’ll get tag VOLUENTAIRY. Don’t compel me to do it!"
-- we're not talking about you, we're talking about people... at work.
@Xzavier: They can find people's cell phones because cell phones are connected to cells, and the location of each cell is known.
I was in the mid-east recently, and the cabs have a GPS tracking system which is linked to the police. Specifically to limit speeding. The unit, mounted on the dash in front of the passenger, would automatically notify police if the cab was speeding for a certain distance, and then send him a ticket. Unfortunately, there was a workaround... the cabbie would cycle through the 3 or 4 modes on the box, one of which reset the tracking, and it would not send the report. To do this, the cabbie would have to lean across the front seats over to the passenger side and constantly cycle the box. All the while speeding along at over 100mph. Uncomfortable to watch as a passenger...
I'd side with the Taxi's on this one. The purpose of the technology is just to feed advertizements/useless info to the passenger and location info to the bosses.
The actual Taxi Cab cant take advantage of the GPS/Mapping as it doesn't actually give the driver any turn by turn directions. Also, the city will not be paying for the install fee for the cab (cab driver pays it) as well as the transaction fee's for the credit machines (cab driver pays it).
So all in all its a lose-lose for the driver.
As to the Unionized comment.. read the article:
" The New York Taxi Workers Alliance, a non-unionized group with more than 8,400 members"
right. useless. because ease of payment, news, and location info is just that.
I tend to agree that's it's a burden for the drivers. It's the same if you're working some place and they tell you, you need to all buy $xxx of equipment of you can't work.
I just wished the driver themselves had the GPS. That's what I like about car service anywhere, they're informed. In the UK, they sign up for a live operator GPS who recommends the best route based upon current traffic conditions. You sorta see it here with cab drivers talking to their buddies non-stop.
... I think it's funny that they are actually saying they're worried about their employers using it to see where they are. Wake up! Most people's bosses know where they are whenever they're at work. I honestly see no credible reason for them to strike.
I can't believe that anyone hasn't talked about the hot girl in the picture yet!
http://mybeautifulkatamari.com
Wasn't the recent fare hike supposed to be in "exchange" for the driver's agreement to install these units?
First of all most of these drivers are either part of a garage or own a medallion.The cost of implementing a system of this size will be passed onto the drivers not the city.The cost of installing the system alone is 6 grand and they're responsible for maintenance.If any part of the system is left broken , they will be ticketed for it.So basically you can go to a cab and break the screen and you wouldn't be liable for it.Remember people the target audience for people that ride cabs are people that can afford them.Just because one can ride a cab and you can not its not they're problem its yours.With rising gas costs they pay the same price as you at the pump.These people are self employed , they have nothing to hide.
Exactly. This is the point Engadget and other sites often fail to mention. The major issue is not the fact that they'll have GPS installed. It's that they're being forced to PAY FOR IT! These systems are expensive and cabbies don't tend to have the wide profit margins to pay for them.
I've got to agree with the drivers on this one, particularly after assimilating the prior comments. The employer I recently retired from was well on the road to being able to track the exact location of each employee in the building via their employee badges. The NY cab drivers have every right to take a few minutes (or an hour or so) to take care of personal business, if needed, and to try to lie about it to their dispatchers. The planned GPS equipment is like electronic shackles on hard-working men and women who want merely to have some control over their movements and not be treated as 18th-Century slaves.
They can't track you once your badge accidentally falls into the microwave oven...
They just want to strike because playing NES/SNES ROM's are not part of the feature set of the unit
It's time to welcome the autonomous cab self-guided by GPS.
I don't see this as a gps issue. I think it is more paying electronically via credit card. Cabbies are already very reluctant to take charge. The credit card fee, and then having to report taxes on tip income.
A money issue is going to trump a freetime issue.
Yes, god forbid we implement something to prevent cabbies from breaking tax evasion laws.
@t325: Who cares if the cabbie isn't declaring income? It isn't my job to police tax laws for "The Man"; and frankly, it isn't like we don't pay enough in taxes in NYC.
My fear is that FULLY accounting for taxes and credit-card charges plus the cost of these terminals is going to cause fare rate-hikes. Avoiding fare rate-hikes would cause the people unhappy to earn the living at a cab to leave because of reduced take home pay; and people less motivated to earn that diminished earnings to take the cab out.
Given the choice of screwing the government (tax authorities and taxi commission) and banks (credit card charges) over, and getting a decent cabbie getting me from A to B at a reduced fare; I'd take the latter.
I have decided to strike against riding in a cab until they install GPS. I have monthly MetroPasses anyways. My options are Subway, Buses, etc.
Don't worry, you're in a Johnny Cab!
Should make the Cash Cab easier to spot.
I don't think most of the posters understand the issue. Drivers and passengers conspire against the ridiculous official system for leaving city limits (double the meter or whatever it is) by agreeing to flat rate pricing. The driver can run the meter and report a lesser amount to the owner.
With GPS, the owner knows the taxi was outside city limits, so the driver and passenger can not conspire any more. You, the consumer, are the loser.
It's not really the GPS that's the problem, it's a symptom of a problem with an antiquated system for establishing fares. Now I'm sure someone will post "just get rid of the system," which is like saying "just get rid of the New York City government," easier said than done.
I remember a couple of years ago when the Cabbies of NYC did strike, the Mayor of the time went on camera saying it was the best thing that ever happened to the city. I've been to the city alot, and have never used a cab, who wants to pay 15 bucks for a ride that would cost you $2 by subway if you're willing to walk a few blocks at most.
i just wish some of them would get their own GPS system for their cab. last time i went to NYC, only ONE driver actually knew where the f they were going . . . one even dropped us off in the middle of nowhere because he didn't know how to get to McCarren Park! i had to use the GPS on my phone to direct one of them, and that at 4am after getting out of the club. i understand that the NYC-imposed GPS is expensive . . . but why can't they just get one of those nav units that's on Woot every once in awhile? =)
These drivers do not have the same benefits as you and i , they have to pay out of their own pockets for health insurance and benefits.They're self employed and if the city really wanted to implement the system , they should cover the costs of installations and maintenance.
Self-employed health insurance is tax deductible - a benefit you and I do not have.
i think the real question is:
has anyone here actually tried to use a GPS in the city?
i have a fairly new garmin nuvi 350 and tried to use it in the city only to have NONE of the usual 6 satellites connect. It also recently happened on a limo ride from the city, the driver was using a GPS, then halfway to the tunnel he lost the signal and had no idea where he was going and had to stop and ask for directions.
what the hell is the point of having GPS in the taxis if they're not going to work (more than) half the time?
I've used GPS all over the country and all over europe. Worked fine. A decent GPS system will have your route written out in turn by turn instructions too, so even if you lose sat connections you can use it like normal written directions (common on tomtom and garmin).
yes, but i'm not refering to the world, i am referring to in NYC, where this is occuring.
written directions are great, but have you ever LITERALLY driven in NYC? written directions are no help. you can not be fiddling with a GPS, you need to be focused on the road and the traffic cutting around your lost ass.
So, this has now piqued my curiosity. Why would a cabbie have a problem with their companies knowing where they are? Wouldn't that actually be a good thing to help streamline the process?
SG
Maybe the system will come with air fresheners...
I'll ride that white chick like a taxi and I'll remember to tip to boot!
Let them strike. I'm sure there's 8,400 people in New York looking for jobs. I'll respond to a few points made in comments I read.
Keeping tabs on the cabbies: Who cares if your boss knows you're driving a passenger to the local hot dog shop? What would you be doing within the acceptable boundaries of your job that you would mind your boss knowing about? Plenty of other companies have systems to know where their employees go. It's simply a way to keep employees as productive as possible.
Providing passengers with location and route information: Sure, maybe the shortest route isn't always the fastest, but some people would prefer a better price over a faster trip and for some it may be the opposite. The driver could simply ask if they wanted the fastest route or the cheapest route as suggested by the system, knowing that if they choose the fastest route it may cost a little more. That seems completely reasonable.
Information: Sure information given to passengers may be padded with advertisements, but what isn't these days? We as consumers have found ways to ingnore random ads and gleen the content we want from what's actually presented to us. You may learn something you had no idea about whether you're a tourist or if you've lived there your whole life.
GPS not providing turn by turn: If you're a cab driver pretty much anywhere you'd better not ever need directions from a GPS unit to get where you're going in the city.
I don't see this system being anything but a convenience for passengers and the drivers going on strike because their company wants to provide their customers with better service is ridiculous.
I can't be bothered to look this particular one up, but many so-called non-unions are actually... unions. A few differences, but same idea.
I'm going to go a bit off topic here. Personally, I'm with those that hate unions. Certainly there are some honest hard-working people in unions. But there are far too many lazy and unscrupulous bums that are virtually untouchable because they're protected by their union. And the propaganda they spew to get what they want... ugh...
Consider some of the poor products and services we get out of unionized industries/companies. And they want raises? Unions are good for "the little guy," indiscriminate of his/her individual work ethic and skills. Make no mistake; unions are terrible for economic development.
True on most unions. The one I'm in is a writer's union at a TV staiton. Our union isn't strong, and they're basically taking advantage of that by giving us the work of other unions... while those lazy scums do nothing. So for the most part, I'm with you on the hating the union part. If I'm gonna get screwed over, why am I paying dues?
As for one of those other unions at our station... they raised bloody hell when the suggestion that GPS units be installed in our live trucks. These morons who are supposed to be engineers and understand technology thought the station wanted them to track their movements (because these truck guys are KNOWN to take the trucks on personal errands)... The units the stations wanted to install were off the shelf Garmins... ONLY because it was taking a while to figure out the exact live shot locations. Station wanted it so these guys would have an easier time of getting to shoots. But these idiots thought they were gonna be tracked... by something that can't transmit. Idiots.
newsguy, that's exactly it! The workers that are actually skilled, honest and hard working get held back by the idiots. I'm all for giving power to the people and protecting their rights. But come on... people need to be accountable for their own actions or else why would they care?
The story about the truck drivers is hilarious. I'm sure these jokers are deserving of a raise. :P
I'm going to counter-strike, by organizing an effort to not ride in any of the NYC cabs that aren't equipped with card readers & GPS units.
The majority of the population of the state of Texas will be participating with me.
Also, most of us won't be riding in cabs WITH the units. But that's more a function of location than protest.
F' those cabbies! I'm sure there are plenty of out of work people that would drive a cab with a gps.
SO hire new "american" cab drivers.
in LA I have been in several cabs that have GPS so what is the big deal...unless if course they want to continue screwing over tourists. I say install them! Their arguments sound very hallow.
And in other corners of the world (Quebec) cabbies have been fighting to get GPS in their taxis for years:
http://www.thegpsinsider.com/2007/07/25/quebec-gives-green-light-to-gps-navigation-units/
The cabbies won't like the agencies tracking them as they drive by and not pick up blacks or latinos in town to rush to the lil ol white ladies who live on the Upper East Side.
Um, the article says that it tracks pickup and dropoff points, not how the Taxi got there.
Seriously, I think this whole argument has come about because people don’t understand the technology, i.e. People don’t realise that GPS systems RECEIVE information, they don’t send it.
I can imagine that if the route the taxi driver took to get from point a to point b was transmitted back (obviously using existing transmission tech) as well as the pickup and dropoff points, the amount of information could overwhelm the current system, that and you’d need someone checking all the routes to find dodgy cabbies and then they could be taking longer routes for legit reasons (traffic jams, closed roads, etc) so the amount of man hours you’d have to put in would be huge.
I've already been in a cab with one of these screens.
Why can't this system only be on when the cabbie starts the meter? That will make the tracking of cabbie when they're not working a non-issue.
Why don't they let customers decide if they want to ride in a cab with GPS. The cabs with this feature will have some distinguishing characteristics, like a special sticker or marking. Kinda like how the light on the hood of the car lets people know if it's in service or not.
This reminds me of something I read years ago.
"Say, Jim,” said the friend of the taxi-cab driver, standing in front of the vehicle, “there’s a purse lying on the floor of your car.”
The cab driver looked carefully around and then whispered: “Sometimes when business is bad I put it there and leave the door open. It’s empty, but you have no idea how many people will jump in for a short drive when they see it.”
That's funny... smart business too... As for the rest of the conversation, I agree that the cabbies shouldn't have to pay for the system, but I also feel that that should be the base for their complaints. Complaining about being tracked is just an excuse. In the end I support the GPS systems 100%. Being someone who frequents other countries (I'm currently posting from Prague, in the Czech Replublic) I'm constantly being taken advantage of because I don't know the country I'm in and a cabby can easily take the long route with me, and they often do...(especially in Prague) Having a GPS would easily allow me to see what is really happening. So I say Mr "non" union folks, base your strike off the price and have the city foot the bill - but one way or another GPS is coming, get used to it.
I could never grasp how anyone would want that job to begin with. People always suspecting your scamming them, pushy assholes who dont tip yet expect limo style service, criminals looking to stick a gun to your head etc. Much like the job of a convenience store clerk, the negatives far outweigh the ridiculously low wages/pay that is offered. Its no wonder that 90% of the people who take the job have come from even worse situations in their own countries so they can deal with it.
I'm astonished by some of the comments here ... just seeing the degree of ignorance, and insensitivity, regarding the livelihoods of NYC taxi drivers.
First of all, drivers take home a pretty meager share of the fare - 30 to 40% - once they're done paying leasing fees (yes, most drivers lease their cars), gas, tolls, etc. Second, they don't have health benefits or paid vacation! Finally, being a taxi driver is actually one of the most dangerous professions in America, and several NYC cabbies are currently in comas having been assaulted in misguided acts of xenophobia and/or racism.
GPS isn't the end-all-be-all issue of the NYTWA's work - it's just sort of the straw that broke the camel's back, and it's where they're drawing the line right now. It's insulting, it's threatening to their livelihood, and it's being implemented despite a press conference and an advance strike warning from the drivers - in other words, they told the city this was wrong, they've offered compromises, but the city is just not willing to negotiate.
It's important for New Yorkers to recognize that cabbies are part of what makes this city function, and they deserve respect and some show of support from the rest of us. The generalizations people are making in this comments thread about dishonest, reckless drivers extorting money from tourists is just insulting.