Yeah, about that Nokia iPhone -- they were trying to demo touchscreen Symbian S60

So yeah, we talked to Nokia today about that iPhone knockoff of theirs. Turns out they totally neglected to mention that they were trying to show off the iPhone-esque software, not the iPhone-esque hardware. The concept they were driving at is they want to take Symbian S60 into the wonderful world of touchscreen, and that kind of input system they demoed could show up on any form factor device. Why they decided to show off said S60 touchscreen software on a total ripoff of the iPhone (and not, say, on some mockup N-series device) is a little less clear, but it certainly made for some hilarious fodder this morning. Seriously though, don't forget to check the video, you can almost hear the soothing sounds of the iPhone ad mandolin playing.

[Johan S @ Aug 29th 2007 5:31PM]

Duh. There was no way they would have been so blatant.

http://www.engadget.com/2007/08/29/nokias-iphone-no-seriously/comments/7003120/

[artman1033 @ Aug 29th 2007 7:49PM]

What is it? Is it an actual Iphone with Nokia software? Or is it a possible prototype with a fake display? I don't get it.

[Adam @ Aug 29th 2007 5:38PM]

Engadget come on. In four sentences you used "knockoff", "total ripoff", and "iPhone-esque" twice. Since when did you become such fanboys. It isn't some unimaginably unique phone design. Its basically just a screen. Competition is good, trust me.

[L @ Aug 29th 2007 6:15PM]

I actually think that Engadget is quite alright - take a look at Gizmodo to get a little perspective :D

[Neeko @ Aug 29th 2007 5:41PM]

HONESTLY WHO CARES ABOUT THIS COPY KNOCKOFF STORY. How about we all take a second and JUST THINK and focus on that beautiful piece of hardware we got to see, with the clean OS..HELLO ENGADGET can u focus on ur job and forget about writing stories for CLICKS..

i wanna kno what hardware that is.

[Josh @ Aug 29th 2007 7:07PM]

@ AdamY

Apple (and those who support them) are really in no position whatever to be calling anybody else ripoff artists.

Also, your ad homonem attacks don't lend credibility to your argument and really just make you look like a douche and a fanboy.

[AdamY @ Aug 29th 2007 8:11PM]

@ Josh

Man, there's nothing like the irony of telling someone to lay off the ad hominem attacks or risk looking like a douchebag...

As I say in posts below, I'm not entirely sure why Konfabulator and Watson didn't litigate against Apple, but I would have firmly supported their cause of action, if they tried one.

In this case, however, Nokia appears to be clearly attempting to profit off ideas developed, marketed, and sold by Apple, Inc. That's, to my mind, pretty bad form.

I don't know how that's fan-boy-ism, but if it makes me sound like a fanboy of IP, and protecting IP then so be it.

I'm an IP Fanboi.

[AKBlade13 @ Aug 29th 2007 5:42PM]

Man...people need to learn that it's not cool calling something a blantat ripoff without putting the right context of it can be very misleading.

AKBlade13

[AdamY @ Aug 29th 2007 6:07PM]

Yeah, because it's a much less blatant rip-off to just copy Apple's look and feel of their OS and related software than to rip off their hardware too.

IP theft is IP theft. Rationalize it however you want to.

I, personally, hope Apple releases the hounds on Nokia if this thing ever makes it to the states. Otherwise they sure wasted lot of money on those lawyers filing patents then.

[L @ Aug 29th 2007 6:30PM]

AdamY, ZOMG! They use fingers to scroll through pictures! And it uses an accelerometer!!!11!1eleven

Stone 'em! Burn 'em! Kill 'em all...

*yawn*

[AdamY @ Aug 29th 2007 6:58PM]

@ L

No, just sue them for stealing when/if they ship a product like that over here.

I know making slushies at the local 7-11 for a living doesn't really endear you to wanting to have your ideas (IP) protected, but people that have to work and create for a living don't appreciate it when someone else can take their idea and appropriate for their own ends without paying for it.

*yawn*

[fraggle_rocker @ Aug 29th 2007 7:17PM]

You are missing the point adamY, apple cant sue, they were not the first to the market with a touch screen phone, and they do not own touch screen technology.

They simply used an available technology in one of their devices. It would be like them taking Toshiba to court for having an LCD on its laptop..

So dont worry, the little IP in the iPhone product ie the software is protected. So you can sleep easier tonight.

Meanwhile, creative losses sleep over apples blatant rip off of their IP..

Grow up..

I cant even think of one hardware feature of the iPhone that could even remotely be classed as apples intellectual property, the most unique feature of the iPhone is its tilt sensors, Other than that, been there done that..

[AdamY @ Aug 29th 2007 8:05PM]

@ fraggle_rocker

It's not a matter of having a touchscreen patented.

It's a matter of having their UI, a finger-based multi-touch system, and more to the point, photo applications that uses accelerometers to sense the orientation the phone is held at, and allowing a finger swipe to move to the next photo in the sequence.

These are *patents* held by Apple, and if Nokia releases a device in the United States that incorporates these interface elements, they *ARE* (note, a descriptive term, not a normative one, not should be) liable for patent infringement.

It is clearly, wholly, and amazingly a violation of United States patent laws. I'm not familiar with international patent laws, but here in the US, it's IP theft. I think it's okay for companies to litigate other companies that appropriate their IP for their own gain without paying the appropriate licensing fees. If Apple is caught ripping off another's IP, they should be held liable (I'm unsure why Konfabulator and Watson weren't able to litigate, but I feel like they should've made Apple pay applicable licensing fees).

I'm sorry you can't think of what's patented on the iPhone, but regardless Apple *HAS* 200+ patents on it.

I'm not entirely sure why I need to "Grow Up..." as I feel like I've laid out a fairly mature point of view. Yeah, okay, I responded to the other poster in a manner consistent with how he approached me, but I don't know that I've warranted the simple cast off that my beliefs are somehow, immature, and by proxy unwise.

Sorry, I just think people that make things should have protection from people blatantly ripping them off. I rooted for RIM against NTP, and in this case I'll root for Apple against Nokia if they try and sell this in the US.

[Steven @ Aug 29th 2007 8:50PM]

I dont know if it is a separate patent for phones, but the idea of having a picture flip according to screen orientation with an accelerometer was on canon cameras way before the iPhone. My sd700IS does it.

[LEXX911 @ Aug 29th 2007 8:51PM]

@ AdamY

Your fanboyism already been patent by someone else already on here. So if you don't stop this fanboyism I think that person will be sueing your @ss off.

[SymbiX @ Aug 29th 2007 5:54PM]

I said this in the other post as well, they have said when they discontinued series90, that series60 will be further developed for touch screen phones, this is obviously it.

[sr1329 @ Aug 29th 2007 6:51PM]

Yeah, it's been planned for a long time. This is not some reaction to the iPhone.

[DickHardknocks @ Aug 29th 2007 5:56PM]

ENGADGET

Please refrain from using "Iphone -esque"

It not only sounds stupid but as the Iphone is a ripoff of the LG PRADA, it is misleading.

[Phil Perman @ Aug 29th 2007 5:57PM]

I personally think it has just as much in common with the N800 as it does with the iPhone. Not a knockoff, just an evolution of an existing design.

I guess thats a problem with apple products, their designs are so plain and simple it gets pretty hard to avoid your products resembling them.

[Donny @ Aug 29th 2007 5:59PM]

WAS ABOUT TIME. C'mon engadget you can do better than that. Thats just plain flame bate if nothing else.

Thought thank you for posting this at least.

[Knockoff @ Aug 29th 2007 6:04PM]

This utterly meaningless threat just sucked all the post away from the real stars N95 8 gig, xpress music phones and N81

[chilko @ Aug 29th 2007 6:07PM]

what about that - balda has won a contract for 6-8 millions touch screens, like those they make for iphone, from an unnamed, but very big company. is that nokia?
:)

http://www.cellular-news.com/story/25657.php

[Lotzosushi @ Aug 29th 2007 6:07PM]

Oh jeez, people calm down... It's an iPhone look-alike and you all know it. All minus the silver rim and the menu button from what we can see so far. =]

[Lotzosushi @ Aug 29th 2007 6:12PM]

I'm sure you ALL thought it was another iPhone article from the picture until you noticed "Nokia" in the headlines or on the phone itself.

[Anthony @ Aug 29th 2007 6:11PM]

The sad part about the video isn't that the phone is very similar to the iPhone. To me it's that the video is totally generated- it doesn't look even remotely like her fingers (or gigantic fingernails) are touching a screen.

I love my N95. It has buttons. Many buttons.

[sr1329 @ Aug 29th 2007 7:03PM]

You can bet anything that when S60 with touch interface comes out it will also have a slide-out keypad. Imagine your N95 with touch as an optional interface. I can imagine mine.

[danhogman @ Aug 29th 2007 6:20PM]

You just paid for the iPhone, right?

[desmond @ Aug 29th 2007 6:20PM]

Wow. Seriously, why are people such haters around. I have been reading engadgets for a while and I truely don't understand why so many people just blindly in love, or blindly hate apple/microsoft. For me as a consumer, I think as long as all the company keep on making good product, and I found one i enjoy, then I will buy and use it.

As for this phone, from top to bottom to the ui design, it does feels like an iPhone. however, if nokia can make a better version, then what the heck, that's good for us right? why all that bashing and hating for apple/nokia/engadgets?

[Anto @ Aug 29th 2007 6:26PM]

Who need iPhone-esque when we've got the real thing, gimmie an iPhone ANY day.

[paul34 @ Aug 29th 2007 6:26PM]

So, basically anything that has a primarily screen-based input is a total iPhone knockoff, right?

So I guess all those PDAs that came out before the iPhone were iPhone knockoffs anyway. Dell, dude, you've got a call from Apple's lawyers! "You ripped off our concept before we even came up with it!"

[Shaaheen @ Aug 29th 2007 7:02PM]

No, any clone is a rip-off.

[Scoops @ Aug 29th 2007 6:27PM]

If you're demoing software, why would you spend bucks to create a super fancy fake shell?

The fact that the iPhone is designed in the simplest fashion possible shouldn't mean that Nokia has to make a super fancy plastic shell for their demo. That would just be stupid.

[L @ Aug 29th 2007 6:38PM]

Exactly what I thought...

[luidabruin @ Aug 29th 2007 6:30PM]

why are you RSSing and reading engadget then?
if you are getting your tech news from 10 year old shit writers, what does that make you? a shit reader?

keep up the good work Engadget!

[3rdsun @ Aug 29th 2007 6:33PM]

I thought Nokia dont make touch screen devices. "Touch screens are for geeks."

[sr1329 @ Aug 29th 2007 6:42PM]

Who cares? Nokia's S60 OS runs on 54% of the world's smartphones, do you think a couple of Apple fanboys are going to change that?

[sean @ Aug 29th 2007 7:27PM]

"hey!!! that phone that flips open with a screen on the top inside and numbers on the bottom inside looks just like the one we made. And look at that circular navigation control in the middle... you ripped us off!!!"

[Ali @ Aug 29th 2007 7:59PM]

I have to admit Iphone choice of networks is very shit. But still it is a piece of awesome tech just the "network" was a bad choice.

I hope Nokia release this alternative here in UK on other Operators mostly T-mobile since I use it most. I heard they're going for Vodafone exclusive when they release it in UK fuck that.

[BrettB @ Aug 29th 2007 8:01PM]

Personally, I feel like the patent system here in the US is a little out of control and out of touch. I know Apple filed for several patents for the iPhone, but I don't know of any being granted. And I have to agree with a previous poster here, there is very little, if anything, deserving of a patent here. They took existing technology, put it in an attractive package, and marketed it VERY well. Even if Nokia releases a knock-off, there's nothing illegal or wrong with a knock-off. After all, the most popular DAP out there (Apple's iPod) is a pretty blatant knock-off. If Nokia can release a superior touch screen phone at a more reasonable price than Apple, by all means, let's have it.

[greg @ Aug 29th 2007 8:26PM]

The hardware of the iphone is very very simple- since when does a very plain rectangular square belong to apple? Ive never heard such nonsense in my life. This patent thign is gettign silly.

[webon @ Aug 29th 2007 9:12PM]

C’mon guys I don’t understand why everybody is so upset, Engadget is the only real online magazine, what they say is law. If they say this is a rip off of the iPhone (even tho I thought it was jus a wide screen new phone), then it is a rip-off. And if they continue saying every phone that comes up with a nice big touch screen is iPhonesk then I will never ever ever, ever, say or even dare to think its cool because it is an iPhone-esque-iPhone knockoff-rip-off, like the HTC touch, those ripoff bastards!!! Damn them, damn them to the iphone hell well they shall burn in the fire pit of jobs!!!!
I also heard LG is coming out with a total ripoff of the iPhone together with Prada, imagine that! They are teaming up on us Steve, use your super powers!!!!

[Irwin @ Aug 29th 2007 9:15PM]

i ment, sad as in the fanboyism towards the iphone..sry if my comment was misleading..
jeez

[Michael @ Aug 29th 2007 9:58PM]

I really hope more hardware manufacturers copy the iPhone. Please, on handheld devices especially, let's put all the buttons in the software. Touchscreen has come far enough that it's possible - and it makes for a better experience. More iPhone ripoffs!!!

[C @ Aug 29th 2007 10:02PM]

Can someone clear this up for me: Is that an actual Nokia product? or just some videos displaying the concepts of the new Symbian OS?

Also I'd just like to clear a few things up:

1. iPhone can't be a clone of Prada, for the simple reason that Apple has been researching on the idea of finger gesturing (and thus a full touchscreen) way back in 2002 when they acquired Fingerworks (the company taht came up with the original gesturings). I very much doubt that LG was even contemplating its Prada phone for that long without leaking any info.

2. Apple holds no patent on touchscreen - they only have extensive patents on their own Multi-touch system through its very own research and acquisition of Fingerworks.

3. Since the Nokia violates no patents -I'm ok with it beig released. But the design (the way to interact w/ OS, the transition graphics, the presentation of the Ads...etc) is just

LAME

[C @ Aug 29th 2007 10:04PM]

Can anyone clear this up for me: Is taht an iPhone w/ the Symbian OS on it? Or is it simply a whooly-owned and actual nokia product (albeit in research)?

O and for the record -
1. Apple owns the patent to the Multi-touch system. Not the whole touch screen. So no patent infringment there.

2. iPhone is not based on the LG Prada - I very much doubt Apple knew the Prada exists when they developed their iPhone 2 or 3 years ago. For God's sake, Apple acquired the Fingerworks company (the one who really invented the fingering gestures) way back in 2002! Also, Prada and iPhone come out in the space of a month - do you possibly think that Apple can copy a product AND develop the OS in such a short time?

3. Seeing there's no patent infringments, Nokia is entitled to release the product - but the design is just LAME. As long as Nokia doesn't do their own Multi-touch then I'm ok with this.

But once again - the design (transition graphics, way to interact w/ OS) is just PATHETIC.

[Rich @ Aug 29th 2007 10:05PM]

Well, I am not going to waste time reading this. There is nothing controversial about this article. I think the controversy is surrounding the hardware and the claim that they were just trying to show off the software. Let's just seperate the facts from the opinions. Besides, how many of you are using a Microsoft OS while claiming that Nokia ripped off Apple? If I remember correctly, the new Vista is an almost exact duplicate of MAC and on top of that, Microsoft still hasn't gotten the hint. Apparently, neither has Nokia. If, and only if, you are going to "rip-off" another company, at least make your product better. I personally (pardon my hipocracy) think that Nokia's "unveiling" is an attempt to hold the market at bay due to the recent crack in the IPhone coding. They may claim one thing, but it just looks like they are trying to cash in because a teenager and his team broke the code. So, lets see which phones get to market first? The newly cracked IPhone or the Nokia version.

This is gonna be fun.

[invincible @ Aug 29th 2007 10:36PM]

The problem with patents is that technology moves so fast these days that by the time a patent expires, the actual product would have already been obsolete for years.

With software it's even worse because what might be a great idea one day soon becomes a common element in all programs. Back when Adobe and Macromedia were separate companies, Adobe sued Macromedia for using tabs in their UI.

Patents don't exist to promote innovation. They exist only to protect profits for whoever came up with an idea first, and prevent further improvements on that idea.

Today's technological environment means that if some didn't develop a certain concept, someone else would get around to it anyway. Seriously, do you think Apple is going to have a monopoly on multi-touch interfaces? Competition is good for us as consumers (once you put away religious brand loyalty and make a decision based on a product's merits), and even good for the companies making the products as they try to gain an edge over their competitors.

[Ryan Block @ Aug 30th 2007 12:00AM]

This has been a pretty interesting comment thread. Basically a bunch of people are upset because we called this non-device an iPhone knockoff. Why they're upset, I don't know: it's absolutely a complete rip of the iPhone, and Nokia admitted it to the press. ("If there is something good in the world then we copy with pride.") And I think that's fine! I think the knockoff scene is amazing -- a smart company can take all the good things about a popular device and make it even better. I'd really love it if they could take the iPhone's lead and improve it in ways Apple hasn't. I'd absolutely buy one.

But the point of this post wasn't even about that at all. The point was that we called Nokia because they showed this demo with very little context; we learned that they neglected to mention the demo WASN'T even about the hardware -- this isn't a device that's being announced or even necessarily being developed. They were showing what they envisioned future S60 touchscreen software to be like. And this software could run on any future touchscreen S60 device. Nokia (confusingly) chose to show the demo running on device that happens to look uncannily like an iPhone, and their software is very reminiscent of Apple's picture viewer, hence the commentary.

P.S. -Complaining about how the iPhone is a ripoff of the Prada falls on deaf ears. It's not -- but even if it was, you HEARD IT ON ENGADGET FIRST, REMEMBER? http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/11/iphone-and-lg-ke850-separated-at-birth/