CE-Oh no he didn't! Part XLII: BDA hints that 51GB HD DVD is a publicity stunt
By Darren Murph 
posted Sep 14th 2007 4:32PM
posted Sep 14th 2007 4:32PM
Not long after we got wind of Sony and Toshiba's latest cat-fight, along comes Frank Simonis, chairman of the Blu-ray Disc Association, to stir the ever-whirling pot even more. In a recent interview with Tech.co.uk, Mr. Simonis was said to have insinuated that "the HD DVD Group's BD-trumping 51GB disc announcement is purely a publicity stunt," and he actually noted that he was "not surprised at all." Additionally, he claimed that the HD DVD camp was "very much in a reactive mood," and added that he had "not heard anything about a production line for the odd format." Oh, and on the topic of whether existing HD DVD players would actually be able to read the newfangled discs should they actually appear, he frankly proclaimed that we "better ask them," as he "questions it very much."[Thanks, Dave J.]
I guess it makes sense. The math does not work out, and so far this "disc" is as credible and existent as the 8 layer Blurays with 200GB. Its a theoretical and practical possibility, but not even close to production.
Andy, so adding an extra layer on a HD-DVD is just as credible as adding 5 on a BD? Sounds like a bit of fanboyism to me. Sounds like the BD group are really sh*tt*ng their pants lately.
I'd be shitting myself if I had support from nearly every major corporation too.
The math DOES actually work out if 17GB layers are used, which is what the proposed 34 and 51 GB discs do. By changing the pitch a little bit, you can get that kind of capacity. It's currently unknown, but believed that a firmware update could allow current HDDVD owners with early players to watch the 17 GB layer discs.
Who cares if 51GB HD-DVD trumps BD... that's as far as HD-DVD goes... end of the line. Whilst BD will go way beyond, all the way to the finish line at 200GB. .|. HD-DVD .|. Toshiba
Actually, BD can't even manufacture 50GB discs. Due to manufacturing problems (pooling), which I'll bring up as many times as I have to until people get it, they can't even do a full 50GB. They're pretty much maxed out at 45GB--and most Blu-Ray discs are single layer...which are usually maxed at around 22GB for the same reason. But you think they're going to get to 200GB? Insiders claim yields for dual-layer Blu-Ray are still at only 50%! What do you think their yields would be like if they shot for another layer?
Honestly, if it ain't compatible with any of the HD-DVD players currently on the market 51GB HD-DVD is useless. Same as 200GB Blu-ray disks.
Also, I thought that the stance of the HD-DVD group was that the 50GB that current BD offers is pointless?
Well, a large portion of current BD movies are 50gb, with higher bitrate sound and video, so more space means less compression.
@Dave - So how do you explain the large number of movies on dual layer discs? Magic?
Nope--there's nothing magical about a 50% yield. It's just trial and error--split down the middle. Half of them fail. Half succeed. The yields are 50% for dual-layer according to insiders on avsforum. And, actually, those are Sony's yields. Other manufacturers are, reportedly, having less luck and are getting 10% yields for dual-layer. I'm not trying to add FUD here. Honestly, that's the word from insiders on avsforum. Go there and look for yourself.
why cant we all get along? if every company in the war just banded together to make a rediculously awesome format, everyone would be happy.
FFS in a few years we'll have 100TB Holo-Disks or something like that, so who cares anyway.
Yes, and then they wouldnt make as much money.
Are you really that naive?
We need to come up with an open format and boycott the rest.
That's how progress is made. As of now, my format of choice is copowi + Seagate-Maxtor.
Open letter to any one of HD-DVD or Blu-ray (whichever may listen first).
Die already.
Thank you.
I agree. Both formats suck.
I said only one should die. Damn read the freaking post, it's just a few words. Completely screwed up my neat open letter's purpose.
The capacity doesn't need to be bigger, since the quality is better with the current capacities, which is actually sort of sad when you think about the fact that Blu-Ray has higher capacities, yet still manages to lack in picture quality.
The video quality is the same and the disk quality is higher including audio quality on blu ray. Only thing that is lacking in Blu Ray is extras and price i know there working on one of the two. Blu Ray I am sure will be around for a long time to come even if it dose not win the video format war it will be the choice format for computer users.
I am just tired of the underhandedness from both camps.
I guess that by lacking, you mean the same as HD DVD, right? You do know they use the same codecs...The only real difference between the formats is blu-ray's superior tech specs, and the fact that the HD DVD standard requires lossless audio, whereas it's an option for BRD movies.
I just wish they'd work together for one format.
Oh, and video quality is not the same. I've seen BD v. HD-DVD, same movie, same LCD TV's, side-by-side and the quality difference was noticeable.
Same movie, eh? Considering neutral studios like Warner often encoded for HDDVD first and used *that very same* resultant encode for the Blu-ray version, I find that interesting. Care to identify the movie?
If you take the top HD movie review sites, you'll find that Blu-ray films on average lead in both PQ and SQ - As of August:
High Def Digest 219HD / 235BD
Home Theater Spot 208HD / 217BD
Home Theater Forum 76HD / 8BD
Upcoming Discs 143HD / 126BD
DVD Talk 256HD/268BD
HighDef HD DVD
PQ - 3.89
SQ - 3.64
HighDef Blu-ray
PQ - 3.97
SQ - 3.83
HTSpot HD DVD
PQ - 3.93
SQ - 3.84
HTSpot Blu-ray
PQ - 4.04
SQ - 4.25
DVDTalk HD DVD
PQ - 3.65
SQ - 3.49
DVDTalk Blu-ray
PQ - 3.68
SQ - 3.71
HTForum HD DVD
PQ - 3.92
SQ - 3.67
HTForum Blu-ray
PQ - 4.30
SQ - 4.07
UpDisc HD DVD
PQ - 4.00
SQ - 3.80
UpDisc Blu-ray
PQ - 4.04
SQ - 4.14
Totals HD DVD
PQ - 3.85
SQ - 3.67
Totals Blu-ray
PQ - 3.94
SQ - 3.96
Quote "Oh, and video quality is not the same. I've seen BD v. HD-DVD, same movie, same LCD TV's, side-by-side and the quality difference was noticeable."
The player would have determined the quality and I very much doubt that you have vision which would allow you to notice any difference.
I think that's FUD.
I've tested both formats via Toshiba player and PS3 (Planet Earth HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray) on the same Pioneer Plasma, and I don't buy the picture quality difference. Both looked fantastic, but on CLOSE inspection, VERY VERY minor difference (at different scenes) but none of this would be noticeable at regular viewing distances.
Check out the reviews
http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/trainingday.html
http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/rumorhasit.html
My process was much the same as this reviewers, with the difference being that there were 2 TV's, rather than switching back and forth.
So you're talking about Warner's 1st Blu-ray films encoded with MPEG-2. Back in 2006. Warner caught some flack for this, and they stopped doing it long ago, and not long after these films were out, so you may want to update your outdated stance. They pretty much use *one* encode for *both* HDDVD and Blu-ray now. Most Blu-ray films are now AVC or VC-1 encoded as well. There are studios using AVC codecs whose average bitrates exceed HDDVD's maximum bitrate. The PQ/MPEG-2 argument became worthless and wrong as of 2007.
The thing is, the 200gb disc was made, and it is just as credible as the 3 layer HDDVD. Until we see them mass produced and used in retail, boasting about is useless.
I really wish one of these formats would just die already. I'd like a HD movie player at some point, But I'm not going to buy one till this little war is over.
I say that each camp randomly pick a champion from their pool of executives, and they settle it in an alley with a knife fight, show it on PPV, and then the losing camp gets the proceeds and PROMISES to ditch their format.
I want the VHS camp to come back full force and join in the fray, just to really confuse things.
They can join the fray with HiFi VHS.
DVHS! The real HD format leader!
HD-VHS FTW!!!
No seriously, guys... D-VHS was the first pre-recorded HD format. Used MPEG2, up to 1080i...never caught on of course, but maybe it's time for a comeback! :)
Interestingly, HD on VHS tapes does exist and there is even more than one type. Aside from random access it's really pretty decent format. With D-VHS, tapes store between 25 and 50GB based on length (and you can use standard VHS tapes too). The format is for data storage and the codec choice is fairly agnostic. Every D-VHS machine supports MPEG2 and some are adding H.264 support now. With this in theory you can use the same encoded asset to publish your identically encoded film on HD-DVD, Blu-Ray, and D-VHS.
There is also another (obsolete) HD format for VHS called W-VHS that records a 1080i analog signal instead of storing an encoded bitstream.
When will this end? what will it take? Iam hoping that xmas07 is when we finally see either camp pull ahead of the other. i dont like this FANBOYISM STUFF.
Its not like either of them has better PQ.
lol dont you think it funny that the hd dvd new size is 51 gb 1 gig more than the blu ray.im sure they could have made it bigger but just to spite blu ray they went with one gig bigger lol
So will these discs fit in my iPhone????
If you smash the disc hard enough against the screen, it might. Try it tonight. Give me news on what happens tomorrow.
@Andy
"As of September 2007 40% of Blu-ray titles use the 50 GB disc and 60% use the 25 GB disc[52] while almost all HD DVD movies are in the 30 GB dual layer format.[53]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc
Wikipedia
Since when was that a trusted source for information.
Read it and weep, those who are viewing the world through "Blu-colored glasses"...
www.blu-raystats.com
www.hddvdstats.com
"Wikipedia. Since when was that a trusted source for information."
When, as in the linked article, references are supplied:
http://www.blu-raystats.com/index.php
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/releasedates_historical.html
No one even cares who wins anymore. Just let one of them die already. They are hurting all of us normal people out here with this stupid little "war." Not a lot of us non-rich people are going to buy into either (unless we have to...ps3) until we are sure its going to have all the content we want, none of this piecemeal stuff. Lets get one, use it for about 2-3 years and move on.
You do know there are a ton of movies, majority probably in BD that are dual layer correct? Your info is terribly wrong.
It is a stunt. The current players can't read them and the discs cost more to make. So the value of triple-layer HD-DVD is no higher than that of triple-layer (75GB) BluRay.
Neither matters for movie playback for the foreseeable future.
It's ironic the HD-DVD guys who dump on BluRay for having two standards (1.0 without BD and 2.0 with it) now trumpet a new disc that is incompatible with all current HD-DVD players.
How do you know it's incompatible? That's FUD. Compatibility is an unknown. What's interesting is that you would present a statement as fact that you have no knowledge of whatsoever. Doesn't that make you a liar?
It's not FUD. Do apply that word to everything?
As to what I'm saying making me a liar, that would only be true if I didn't believe what I said.
It isn't compatible, and I said so. I may be wrong, but I'm not a liar.
Why don't you wait around and find out if I'm wrong?
Both Formats are declining in sales so fanbois get over yourselves
http://www.dailytech.com/Sony+Inadvertedly+Reveals+Declining+BD+Sales/article8764.htm
That graph you cite is old and its data ends at 05/13/2007. As it turns out it wasn't even close to indicative of a trend (just a slump), as sales picked up for both HDDVD and Blu-ray films. What is consistent (from that period till today) is that Blu-ray titles are still outselling HDDVD titles comfortably at 2:1. Latest Nielsen/Videoscan figures:
Week Ended 9/09:
60/40 BD
Year-to-Date:
66/34 BD
Since Inception:
61/39 BD
1. 300 BD 100
2. 300 HD 70.92
3. Heroes HD 46.32
4. Blades of Glory HD 37.20
5. Casino Royale BD 34.09
6. Planet Earth BD 29.26
7. PotC DMC BD 28.58
8. Wild Hogs 25.68
9. PotC CBP 25.66
10. Planet Earth HD 25.17
Nope. Closer to 1.5:1 as of late. Last week it was even less. If it wasn't for the PS3, Blu-Ray would be dead. Luckily for Blu-Ray, Sony, quite wisely, elected to sell people a console for which few decent games exist. Your choices are watch a movie or do some more Folding@Home.
The week before that was 68/32 BD (things improved a bit for HD for the week thanks to Heroes and Blades). No one knows what the numbers are as "of late" till Nielsen puts them out.
As for the PS3 jab, save it for someone who gives a shit.
@hemmy
I'd imagine you give a shit since it's the only reason your format has any legs.
@Dave
No, I don't give a shit, but apparently being an HDDVD fanboy, you do. It would be like me saying the only reason HDDVD has any legs is because Toshiba are bleeding out the ass in subsidies and buying Hollywood support, not because the public overwhelmingly wants the format.
Leave the grade school AVS forum fanboy shit at the playground, thanks.
You sound pretty angry for a guy who doesn't give a shit. Meet you on the playground.
Dave, If you think that sounds angry, you've got comprehension problems. Enjoy the playground, you seem right at home there.
@Dave: You should stop auto-fellating with the "if this if that" argument. The simple fact is that Sony has the PS3. The PS3 is a mover of BD (wow, the format has legs because of a popular product that uses the format? Get the fuck out). Done. Move on.
@hemmy: No offense, but you fed his fuel. But more to the point, you bring up a good question. I wonder what Toshy and Sony's earnings reports are going to look like for FY 2007. The common BD-camp argument is that Toshiba is bleeding money in subsidies while Sony is raking it in because they actually have a healthy margin on the devices. I wonder if that's true and if the financials of the two companies reflect it (I guess it would be hard to get at with just their reports, though).
You got me, hemmy. I care. I like technology. That's why I'm posting to a fucking tech blog on a Friday night. Why the fuck are you doing it? You're not fooling anyone. You don't give a shit? Then why can't you shut the fuck up? I know I'm interested. What's messed up is you're not--and yet you can't STFU? Please.
Awww, poow little Dave sounds a wittle angwy, himsewf.
Christ-on-a-stick save us from these whining schoolgirl assbags.
"You don't give a shit? Then why can't you shut the fuck up? I know I'm interested. What's messed up is you're not"
Again with the comprehension problems. Obviously
I'm interested because I'm posting figures and correcting misinformation. When I say I don't give a shit, I'm talking about your flamebaiting PS3 garbage, shit - that much was *obvious* but it seems the mentally handicapped need to have it spelled out for them. If you'd like me to STFU, do so yourself. Oh man, so easy!
@MasterCKO:
None taken. I think we'll get a better grip on what role subsidies and moneyhatting played on either side after the end of this fiscal year.
"What is consistent (from that period till today) is that Blu-ray titles are still outselling HDDVD titles comfortably at 2:1"
Last two weeks according to Nielson:
56:44
60:40
Is that 2:1? YTD is 2:1--not "still". That implies currently. Currently, Blu-Ray is NOT outselling HD-DVD 2:1. See? That's a mistake. You are wrong. Perhaps you were unintentionally unclear--or maybe you just don't understand ratios.
For reference, here's the "misinformation" you were trying to correct:
"Closer to 1.5:1 as of late. Last week it was even less. If it wasn't for the PS3, Blu-Ray would be dead."
Where's the error?
For reference, here's the "misinformation" I was trying to correct:
"Both Formats are declining in sales so fanbois get over yourselves"
*Both* formats have picked up in sales since 05/13, the date of which the referenced graph ENDS. Cue the PS3 bitching.
And sorry, the word "still" fits well within the definition of YTD: "For the period starting January 1 of the current year and ending -TODAY-", but whatever, you wanna nitpick words to lessen the number's impact. I'll endeavor to be *clearer* and more accurate for those with chronic comprehension disabilities.
As of 08/12 Blu-ray outsold HDDVD 1.9:1 (66/34)
As of 08/19 Blu-ray outsold HDDVD 2.5:1 (71/29)
As of 08/26 Blu-ray outsold HDDVD 2.1:1 (68/32)
As of 09/02 Blu-ray outsold HDDVD 1.3:1 (56/44)
(I contributed here, Heroes kicks ass. What's this? I buy HDDVD too?! Can't be!)
As of 09/09 Blu-ray outsold HDDVD 1.5:1 (60/40)
And for the Year to Date
Blu-ray outsold HDDVD 1.94:1 (66/34)
Decimal points for greater accuracy just for you, champ.
"Blu-ray titles are still outselling HDDVD titles comfortably at 2:1."
Thanks for the updated info, hemmy. That information is actually useful. Of course, that makes the above statement erroneous. I read it a few times--and I'm pretty sure I'm right about that.
You made your point about the PS3 comment. In retrospect, I actually agree that it probably wasn't relevant. Of course, your reaction was way out of line.
Hey, you're free to be a dick--that's your right. That quote is wrong, though--and it's going to remain wrong. You don't have to be a man and admit it. That's fine. I think my "reading comprehension" problems are probably shared by others who speak English.
Just for the record. I am so f*cking sick of that word "fanboy."
Can we just drop it from the english lexicon already?
When it ceases to be a concept that is meaningful to English speakers, sure. Till then, no dice.
The english language evolves. IMO, that's part of why it still sucks so bad.
We need one that's designed from the ground up. Esperanto isn't it either. When we have it, you may have some influence on the way of things with sound logic. Right now, there's no one to complain to.
If you'd like to help with that, feel free to tell me. ethana2@gmail.com
Almost all of these comments are down right annoying.
I've got HD DVDs, if they don't win I'll buy a dual format player. Blu-Ray can do the same.
Stop whining so much.
In all honesty I'm an HD DVD supporter. I dont care for BD for my own reasons, mainly the fact that Sony seemed to force BD onto the masses and tend to make a lot of false claims however both camps are guilty of fudging the numbers.
What it boils down to is mass acceptance and PS3 fanboys which seem to be the primary force behind blu ray since stand alone players arent doing so hot wont cut it, nor will AV geeks buying into HD DVD. We here on these types of forms are a unique group of well nerds. This socalled war will be decided by the average Joe. You need working class acceptance.
Thats part of the reason I back HD DVD because of cost effectiveness. There is little separation between the two when it comes to raw specs. Audio and Video quality sways a small bit towards HD DVD even the most popular reviews on cross platform titles support this. Bottom line is the average working dad doesnt give a damn about how many gigs he can cram on a disc, hell he just wants to see stuff blow up on his new HDTV that he broke his back to get. The reality is the average consumer doesnt even know what a dual layer DVD is let alone dual layer BD or HD DVD. With cheaper hardware and equal and in some cases better quality HD DVD will most likely pick up the W. Sony tends to get too greedy with their homegrown intellectual properties. They start out full steam and then die.
Cheaper holiday hardware and improving studio support (Paramount & Dreamworks) I'd say HD DVD FTW in about a year and a half, hopefully for all the BD supporters (PS3 owners) maybe Sony will get some good games out in the future?
why cant it be that some people bought a ps3 as a blu-ray player after all it is a good and cheap blu-ray player and not just for games so if your talking blu-ray you have to look at it as the favorable affordable blu-ray player and not just a gaming machine. otherwise its like saying that hd-dvd only sells cause of one specific hd-dvd player.
Ugh. I am so sick and tired of this stupid Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD crap. Are these formats still around? I mean, I love hi-def - who doesn't? But as far as all this is concerned, who truly cares? (Very few, that's who). And when is all this going to die finally? Geez, listening to these two corporate groups is like listening to slam campaigns from politicians.
"They're lying!" "No! THEY'RE lying!"
"We sold more!" "No! WE sold more!"
"Ours is more popular!" "No! OURS is more popular!"
Shut up already! And grow up.
Joe Customer shrugs and buys more DVD blanks.