Steorn redux: more mad "scientists" tout free energy gadget
By Conrad Quilty-Harper 
posted September 16th 2007 4:56PM
posted September 16th 2007 4:56PM
[Thanks, Alan]
posted September 16th 2007 4:56PM
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secret catalyst...like duh!
Actually, if it wasn't for the mention of a catalyst and chemical stuff, the idea of using electricity to generate heat, where more heat comes out than electricity put in, is perfectly valid. This is what heat pumps do. An example of which is a normal household refrigerator.
These aren't breaking the laws of thermodynamics, since electricity (or mechanical work created from electricity) is a higher 'quality' of energy than heat, so a perfect device would require zero input energy to move the heat. In reality, most heat pumps can move 3 to 4 times as much heat as electricity put in. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump
But the idea in the article still sounds bogus ;-)
Just thought I'd correct folks on the laws of thermodynamics.
Exactly. This sensational journalism (not Engadget, the people who originally posted the idea) is getting to be rather infuriating. It's like the recent story about burning seawater for fuel: It seems as though the inventor had come up with a means of more efficientlly seperating water into hydrogen, and for some reason, various news sites took this to mean that you could burn seawater for fuel, making the inventor look like a crackpot making scientifically laughable claims which they never made.
From my guess (based on the comments in here in particular), this is vaguely like a heat pump? In which case, no, there is no free energy, and, sadly, is entirely magic-free. It's just a more efficient means of heating water, right?
And, as someone mentioned, heat engines can seem to get more energy out than is input, because they simply move heat from a hot reservoir to a cold or vice-versa. Supplied with a large enough reservoir (say, Earth), there's no reason to say you can't put a certian amount of energy into something (say, the water which is to be heated) whilst inputting less energy. However, there is still a fundamental limit to this: The Carnot efficiency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnot_cycle).
I need to check my physics textbook again to make sure I did the calculation right, but it seems that you can move heat from a cold reservoir at 298.15K (25 degrees celsius, about room temperature) to a hot reservoir at 373.15K (100 degrees celsius, boiling water) at an efficiency of ~0.25 (carnot efficiency for those temperatures). According to my calculations, this device is theoretically possible.
Any physics students/graduates out there which can check I did it right please (and correct me if I didn't)?
efficiency = 1 - T(hot)/T(cold) = 1 - (100+273.15) (boiling hot water) / (25+273.15) (room temperature)
WTF is right.
I wish I had one of these that had the same effect with money...
$1 + Secret Catalyst = $1,000,000... or $2... or something...
Re-freaking-tarded.
Contrary to popular belief, engadget writers have the lowest form of intelligence known to man.
Its not "free energy" if the energy is derived from a previously unknown source. At one point it was against science to even suggest this Earth wasn't the center of the Universe. You could be put in a mental institute for saying the world was round and not flat. And now we have pig-headed engadget editors saying they shouldn't have to tell us that "free energy" and anything that looks like "free energy" is impossible.
Go stuff it.
i agree with you on that;
the editors have a horrible attitude about it too
their ignorant skepticism is so repulsive
i would really like to see everyones faces when such theories are proven right or functional,
having a positive attitude wont hurt, at least if you're educated you'd know so
Unfortunately, no matter how much you think Engadget writers are too cocky for their own good they are right about this being a scam. There are natural laws that cannot be broken by the simple heating of a catalyst.
This scam has far more substance than Steorn. At least Ecotwat presented us with a pretty illustrated drawing of their device. Steorn never managed this with 14 million euros behind them.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Definitly, though, not defending this highly unlikely product! but perhaps, we need to test it first.
Shock absorber that heats water?...that goes against more than one law in my book.
free energy?
Wow, for every good point there is a completely equal counter point. This is impressive. So this is what happens when you put so many thought provoking people together...Engadget has the smartest readers:)
12 inch miracle (ooh err)!
Never a secret for a patented invention:
US2005236376 - Energy generation
WO0025320 - Energy generation
US6290836 - Electrodes
WO9846349 - Fracture cell apparatus
That's not a free energy machine, that's a flux capacitor he's holding!
This is what i need
The "scientist" who signed off on this, Jim Lyons, is a super "woowoo". He subscribes to such nonsense as crop circles, dowsing, energy healing, "synchronicity" and all manner of paranormal bull poop. He's about as credible as the guy in Nigeria who has 25 million dollars to share with you. You can read more about this jerk in a response I wrote on Free Energy Tracker's blog here:
http://tinyurl.com/2r4yl7 where you will find links in support of my remarks (scroll down a few responses to get to it).
"Guess what, I shouldn't have to tell you that at one time you'd be thrown in jail or a mental hospital for suggesting the world was round. And guess what, there will come a time where people understand the mechanics that make "free energy" devices a possibility, and a practicality."
Translation: Once upon a time, someone said that something was impossible and was later proven wrong, so THIS thing which people are saying is impossible WILL eventually be proven possible.
This is your basic logical fallacy at work.
Doesn't that also logically mean "Because something is possible, everything is possible"? That DOES sound rather like a fallacy to me.
Yes, Panq, you've put your finger right on the problem with that logical error.
Breaking News - secret catalyst turns out to be a form of oil made from snakes, scientific community reels in disbelief
The most interesting thing in the article is the mention of the University of York, who appear to have VERIFIED the process. I would have thought Engadget would have picked up on this, since Steorn has not yet achieved the same, and yet had gained many posts from this and other sites.
When will we be reading the Engadget interview with the company's boss?
PS - Iove the Daily Mail reader comments :"the government will just raise the cost of energy". Yeah, screw the laws of physis, DOWN WITH NEW LABOUR! Of course, a Tory government would know what to do with an unlimited source of free energy - fire illegal immigrants out of a cannon maybe?
I think they made an error while calculating the energy in the hot water; when they did they were like "ZOMG O_O!!!!!!1!!1!1!one one two! FREE ENERGY!!!! :O!!!" member kiddies... carry the one....
"The device seems to break the fundamental physical law that energy cannot be created from nothing - but researchers believe it taps into a previously unrecognised source of energy, stored at a sub-atomic level within the hydrogen atoms in water."
This is exactly what a Hydrogen fuel cell does (release sub-atomic, i.e. electron-based energy in the hydrogen). This is ridiculous, it also implies that the "Potash" is used up in the reaction, which makes it purely a chemical reaction and still dependant on a barely-renewable fuel source (potash can be mined or produced from wood ash). No problems are solved, may as well get a woodstove.
it's funny you should say with so much confidence that perpetual energy is impossible.... due to current theory (The term perpetual motion, taken literally, refers to movement that goes on forever. This is possible in the current theoretical understanding of physics as in Newton's First Law of Motion.) the idea in itself is by all imaginings something that is perfectly possible to achieve, though maybe not by such ludicrous means... PLUS! its ok to be hopeful isnt it? anything imaginable should be possible, otherwise we wouldn't have achievd some of the things that have been accomplished to date! keep an open mind engadget!!!! :P
Sure are a lot of sockpuppets in this thread.
Maybe the early remarks about free blogger energy were just proven valid. ;)
in all fairness, the pretentiousness was a little bit of a poke at the ppl on these threads who presume to know everything. i can quite happily say that i nicked all of my information from wiki (and other sources), but still, it makes you wonder what is really possible... anything? the map is by no means the territory...
The now Defunct company Mettallic Power was in a joint venture with Marconi Power(now Emerson Network Power). They had developed a fuel cell using potash and zinc in a reactor to develop power.
This system unfortunately did not shatter the laws of physics. The Zinc was oxidized in the reaction; however, the reaction was kept in a closed system. This allowed the system the reform the zinc when commercial power was made available.
I imagine this product is also relying in some sort of chemical reaction to release heat. Clearly not free energy.
It wasn't until recently (relatively speaking) that man realized the world was not flat. Wars were fought over whether or not zero was a number or not. My point is, that just because you don't think a free energy device is possible, doesn't make a hill of beans of difference scientifically speaking on whether or not it's possible. And just because someone says the laws of physics are xyz... that doesn't mean they are xyz... just that someone says they are this. Hunan understanding is constantly changing. So get over yourself.
"It wasn't until recently (relatively speaking) that man realized the world was not flat."
De4pends. Do you take a few thousand years to be recently or not ? Because the first circumference calculation are about from 2nd century BC. "people used to believe the word is flat" is a myth when you are speaking about thinker or philosopher after that age (the "scientific" of those epoch)
Man kinds existence is but a blink of an eye when considering the life of the universe, so when I say relatively speaking, I mean do for the last few thousand years. It baffles me that we, as a human race, and as diggers, believe we are even close to understanding it all. My 4th grade teacher told me that if you can think it up, it's possible. You can choose to believe that or not. But if you were somehow able to zap back a thousand years and explain the world we live in today to a tent maker, he's probably laugh at you... much like this digger does at the mere mention of a free energy device. Now consider what you would do when someone from a thousand years in the future zaps to our time, today, and tries to explain life then. Would you laugh? If we are on the verge of conceding the possibility of practical time travel today, which is a hot hot topic in modern physics, what would someone from a thousand years in the future offer us today which we would be unable to conceive.
I think my forth grade teacher, Mr. Fred Bartleson, had it right.
This blog site seems to take a childish pleasure in poking fun at the efforts of those who dare to ask, 'what if ?'. However, I can assure readers that the EcoWatts device (I am its inventor) does not contravene or discard the laws of physics, as the energy is NOT obtained "for nothing". The device exploits the phenomenon of the sub-ground state of the hydrogen complex in its reaction site. The energy is replaced (in accordance with the known laws) by gradual recovery of the reaction product to its normal n=1 condition through natural irradiation over time. The energy is not *free*; it is on long term loan.
Whilst I have had my differences with EcoWatts over administrative matters, their science is flawless.
Christopher Eccles
So what would happen if it brakes?... Get a new one because we have no idea how it works?