We've been waiting and waiting, and after months of speculation, a hardware
revision, a couple
limited editions, and even a new
SKU, it looks like
Microsoft is finally shipping "
Falcon"-equipped
Xbox 360s with 65nm CPUs. According to the eagle-eyed posters in the official Xbox forums, Halo edition 360s from lot #734 appear to be the first machines with the
new chips, and the time-honored method of peeking
inside the case with a flashlight should confirm you have the latest and greatest once you get your baby home. Check the read links for tons more info (and a fun little flamewar).
[Image from user JWSpeed in the Xbox forums]
Read -- Original thread with pics of the new chipset
Read -- What to look for to see if you've got a 65nm 360
posted Sep 28th 2007 7:49PM
wOOt wOOt!
Is anyone else tired of this w00t and pwnage talk?
somewhat, but i'm more annoyed by the "but does it play doom" and "will it blend"
yea, but we STILL haven't found ANYTHING that can play doom while blending...
WhO CaReS?
The 'will it blend' question is very valid. Can this blend? No. Code signing. So I won't buy it. Other reasons why something wouldn't be able to blend include lack of MMU (GBA, DS) or lack of 3d acceleration.
No the real question is will the blender play Doom while its blending the 360. If so then woot. IF not then :-(
if (blender == plays doom)
{
console.write('woot');
}
else
{
console.write(':(');
break;
}
if (blender == blending 360)
{
Int32 devidebyzero = 1 / 0;
//Oh shi-----
}
else
{
console.write('not so woot');
}
What's this about pwning at Doom blending?
Haxors!
Do customers know which model they are getting? If not, that sounds a little dishonest...
You're totally right, but I seriously doubt Microsoft is going to publicly blacklist older revisions of the 360 just for the benefit of their customers. The new bundled 360's scheduled to come out soon will probably take advantage of the new 65nm. Probably best to wait for them...
how the hell is it dishonest? all electoric devices go thru hidden updates to the hardware to make the process of making them faster and cheaper.ps2 had alot of revisions done under the hood,so did the orginal xbox. the ps3s are losing the emotion engine and they arent going to tell you it is that dishonest too?
Ant, its dishonest because there are known flaws with existing hardware (Heat, RROD, Noisy drives, Disc scratching, disc read errors, the list goes on) hence the admittance by MS and 3 year warranty extension to cope. Besides the obvious of making it right the first time, to this day you still have to be treated like "Forrest Gump" when you buy one. Buying an Xbox 360 shouldn't be "like a box of chocolates". YOU SHOULD KNOW WHAT YOU'RE GONNA GET! So MS do us PS2 fence sitters all a favor, print in BIG BOLD HYPE type letters on the new boxes "NOW WITH NEW & IMPROVED COOLER 65NM CHIPSET"!
I don't know what you're complaining about. You want an xbox 360 - they're all both xbox 360s. They play the same games, they have the same promised functionality, and they each deliver it. They make small revisions all the time to the hardware to try and make it cheaper to produce, better, etc. In this case, one is superior, but not in a functionality changing fashion. Marketing such changes wouldn't screw over MS, but screw over retailers who would suddenly have two products priced the same but one that no one would buy and they'd be stuck with dead stock. Sure, I'd want to get the most bang for my buck too, but this isn't some vendetta MS is waging against you.
Did someone say an Xbox of chocolates?
So does this go for all of the Halo 3 Edition 360s or how are we supposed to tell by the box if it is or is not a Falcon chipset?
Unfortunately there is no way to tell if your console is 65nm before you open the box.
And no, this is not all Halo 3 consoles. I would suggest you get a lot 0734 or higher to get 65nm.
Oh great, now I can wait another 3 months for newest hardware... at this rate I won't get an Xbox 360 until the Xbox 720 comes out.
Wouldn't be nice if they just got it right the first time
you're an idiot Jonathan. all hardware goes through revisions, from the SNES to the PS2 and now the 360. its been out for 2 years, for God's sake. its about time they made some hardware changes.
I talked to an EB Games and they said that they will keep the new Falcon boxes separate from the older ones so when people come in and ask for the newer ones they will get them.
I like this approach, sure beats having people return units because it doesn't have the right processor.
Not everyone will do this, I am sure different stores will have different policies.
- Roger
- Roger.
Roger, What will they do with the old ones then?
Probably sell them to the consumers who don't know any better.
Haha Suckers :P
Exactly. They want to keep the separate for the people who ask for it. If you do not ask for it, then you will get the old ones.
- Roger
So how big is the difference in real life between old and new version anyway?
In terms of performance the will barely be any difference. The main point of the new CPU is that it's more energy efficient than the old one and develops less heat i.e hence less overheating issues.
> [...] hence less overheating issues.
And hence less problems with cheap production lines located _______ (fill in your favorite outsourcing destination).
Often companies start producing units at "home" - only then do outsourcing when production cycle is completely "debugged" and verified to be reliable in other environments. M$ jumped to production outsourcing right away. And the quality problems were to expect.
I still recall that it tool Apple instead of planned 6 months whole 18 month before brining their Chinese plants up to level of quality Apple have demanded. And alas! there were more problems with Cupertino's' new Mac OS X than with Chinese made iBooks/PowerBooks.
So will it still over heat if I look at it funny?
Thanks to everyone for your beta testing of this product, I'll go pick one up now, cheers!
Hmmm, they got rid of the watercooled copper heatpipe? I would have preferred it stayed, but if they feel confident these 65nm CPUs will stay cool enough.....
If I could run my own OS on there, I would care, too. As it stands, you don't even /own/ the hardware in the first place.
There is no watercooling in the heatpipe - they use a gel that looks like vaseline that doesn't move - it is just insanely excellent at moving heat. it is the same heatpipes I have seen in (Apple) laptops and desktops for years. I got a demo of it's abilities a few years back, and it is wicked stuff. they probably jsut moved it to somewhere else, unless the new chips didn't need it.
-Javbw
So if I were to send my xbox in would I be able to get one of these back? :P
Doubt it, your likely to get a refurbished unit someone else sent in for repair.
You guys are such a retards. Lock ups and red rings are caused by overheating of the graphics chip not the CPU. If the GPU got the same die shrink then perhaps it may be worth going with Falcon version.
Your the idiot here. 65nm CPU means cooler ambient temps inside the 360... which means cooler GPU temps. Don't be so fast to call people idiots when you yourself do not know what you are talking about.
He doesn't need details, just a basic grasp of thermodynamics. Come back when you know what "thermodynamics" means.
Wow Steve (Jobs), for someone so good at marketing and speaking in public you really suck when it comes to subterfuge against Microsoft...
Indeed. The 360 problems are twofold.
1/ GPU tempreture, and indequate heatsink.
2/ Lack of airflow inside the case.
A shrunk CPU is not going to fix these 2 problems. We have no evidence todate, that 65nm are any more reliable than 90nm units.
Microsoft are not going 65nm CPU for reliability, they are doing it to reduce manufacturing costs.
If you read the xbox360 thread, the CPU is the only thing to get new size right now but some posters are saying that a new GPU is not far behind. Maybe the entire board will be 65nm by the end of the year...thats what I'm waiting for or el cheapo ps3.
Hey Guys,
Can you view the Xbox lot # just by looking at the box?
Yes. On the side of the box there is a white sticker with lot number and team information.
When the day comes where I can definitively look at the xbox packaging and KNOW without a doubt that I'm purchasing a 65nm chip with fixed heat sinks, then THAT will be the day I FINALLY buy an XBOX360. Way to get your act somewhat together Microsoft.
Yeah took them long enough. I'm waiting also.
Or just move to Europe where (1) sold Xboxes do not have such pandemic problems and (2) where you as consumer can return any defective good to shop within 2 years after buying.
I think people are reading the pics wrong... if you look at it the shape of the CPU has changed a bit and may be a bit smaller but if it was a direct shrink from 90nm to 65nm you would easily see the ~25% shrink. I think this is a simple CPU revision. Companies do revisions all the time and they can shrink the die size and reduce temp but this is not a process change.
I wouldn't expect the heat spreader to ever get smaller. The die may get smaller, but the heat spreader won't.
Also, not shrinking the actual heat spreader allows for greater heat dissipation, which means an even great efficiency.
I was not referring to the heatsink, simply the die itself. there is no heatspreader on these CPUs, that is the exposed die in the pictures. Heatspreaders are metal and generally cover the resistors as well as the die. The pictures clearly show an exposed die just like Intel uses in laptop CPUs.
All process shrinks (such as the much discussed 90nm to 65nm) are accompanied by an appropriate % die shrink unless you add more cache or CPU functionality. As this is a console, neither apply. I just don't see the 25% shrink I would expect to see. Hence they have reorganized the die to make it more efficient not changed the process.
I sent my 360 in for repair a few weeks ago. When it returns will it have the new chip?
I highly doubt it. MS probably has tons of old boards to use first.
No, it will have a bodged up heatsink, that may make it last a little while longer, before it fails again.
Sorry, you have been fleeced by Microsoft.
Thanks for the help.
Can anyone tell me what the Mfr Date for systems that are from Lot 0734 and higher? I threw out the box and I don't see the Lot# anywhere on my 360. My Mfr Date is 7-10-07
Thanks in advance.
Mine is 8-something-07 and is lot 732. :(
-Taylor
In the pic of the GPU, the gold thing the printing is on is the back of the actual chip die.
If the chip were 65nm instead of 90nm, the chip itself (the gold part) would be half the size of the old 90nm die.
And it doesn't appear to be.
So this doesn't appear to be the 65nm GPU.
BTW, to those making the 25% error above, when you make the feature size 28% smaller, you make a feature (transistor) 28% less wide AND 28% less long, so the transistor is 0.72*0.72, or 0.5 (50%) as large.
"If the chip were 65nm instead of 90nm, the chip itself (the gold part) would be half the size of the old 90nm die."
Uhm... Are you sure it is not packaging?
Chip die is *NEVER* exposed to outside. But some types of packaging are made to fit size of die. (AMD CPUs: packaging matches die size pretty closely; Intel CPUs: packaging is just tin box so you never know how big die really is - unless you destroy packaging.)
Also, note that packaging is first line which diverts heat from die - it can't be small. Also, IBM recently introed new cheap method for more efficient cooling of die which leads packaging being slightly larger....
Well, as hell I know what's going on. One thing for sure: you can't tell what technology CPU uses just by looking at it. You have to read what's written on front/back of CPU.
You're wrong.
The top (contact/neutralized) side of the die is never exposed.
When you see a shiny back light this, you're seeing the die itself.
http://support.intel.com/design/mobile/datashts/29851706.pdf
Page 98:
"Exposed die enables more efficient heat dissipation"
In FCBGA, the chip is upside-down, and the shiny surface is the back of the die (chip) itself.
Blown and injected.
Yes Blown and injected.
I'm performing my sixth replacement right now. I have had nothing but bad luck and months of downtime. There's been some real bad feelings had by many
people towards Microsoft because they're experiencing having to go through the repair process multiple times without so much as a WORKING Xbox 360 (which
could easily be a $1,000+ investment) -- meanwhile certain members of the press get LOANER Xbox 360 ELITE units while there's is being repaired?
Sigh, and there's nothing that you can do about it because of the way the company distances itself from the face of repairs.
In Canada, the repair process involves 100% refurb replacements. They check two things: (a) did we get the 360? and (b) is it broken is some capacity?
After these conditions are met, they give you a newly 'fixed' 360. Problem solved?
Too bad it's a refurb, and the unit you just returned is going to be saved up, shipped out en-masse to America and 'fixed', returned to Canada and shipped to
another innocent victim.
Oops -- another problem: your XB Live purchased content won't properly work (trial games, no in game content for Oblivion, Saints Row, Dead Rising), and
you're either required to jump through MORE hoops to get the ability to take your console wherever you choose to play -- not just limited by where your magic
airwaves [Wi-Fi] can reach) thanks to the changed console serial number.
I've had the RRS team deal with my case twice (once Canadian, once American) and the only benefit to both is that THEY SPEAK FLUENT ENGLISH! Over the course
of my 6 repairs I've probably spent 7 hours on the phone with 888-4MY-Xbox, 5 hours of which were on hold, and spent approximately 6 months of my purchased
Xbox Live! time FORCEABLY OFFLINE due to the hardware problems. The solution is staring myself in the face each time I call and have done all the
troubleshooting steps AHEAD of time.
The most recent return to me could not open the DVD unit. If I removed the faceplate and depressed an internal mechanism I could force the tray to eject,
and also close when you'd push eject on a hardware/software level, whenever you tried to eject the tray with the eject button or the remote, or the
dashboard, the tray would move a millimeter and then CLICK! it's either caught or locked.
THIS WAS THAT HARD TO CHECK FOR BEFORE IT WAS SHIPPED OUT? It's fairly basic functionality of a DVD-based console.
I've heard nightmares of people with more problems than myself but I have had enough of the excuses and I'm fed up with their lack of concern that I've been
out of a product for 6 months [estimate based on one month per repair cycle] since November 22, 2005.
I would be happy if they'd tried to ease my frustrations at all -- I'm not asking for the Halo 3 console but it'd be nice to have a HDDVD player for my
troubles or if they accidentally slipped up and sent back an elite that worked, I wouldn't complain..
But I can't even imagine how deep this problem goes.
I have no recourse, I have no console and I have spent way too much money on the 360 -- I could probably get a PS3 for all the stuff I could trade in -- Hiro
fight stick, FF racing wheel, countless games, GH2, extra guitar, 4x white controller, 2x black controller, the camera, the 360 Wireless adapter, I had
prepaid for XBL until 2009.. The list goes on and I have been given nothing but hard times and hoops to jump through with the repair process.
With respects to my claim against the console that wouldn't open recently -- I was referred to the American RRS team -- who ignored the suggested time for
calling (or else 4MY-XBOX didn't indicate the time to call even though they asked me).
I told them to call 5PM-MIDNIGHT eastern standard time.
They called twice (I have call display and it shows up) before 3PM, leaving two messages.
The first he left a number and a reference number.
I called back a non 4MYXBOX number and entered the long code for my reference and his not-as-long extension.
HE'S ON THE PHONE. It sounds like some other guy's voice. Whatever. I leave my NUMBER AND A POLITE MESSAGE AND INFORM HIM I NEED TO BE CALLED BETWEEN 5PM
AND MIDNIGHT EASTERN STANDARD TIME.
The second time he calls (two-three days later, before 3PM as previously mentioned) he tells me he's tried to make contact 5x (like I said, his number showed
up on call display -- twice. Not five times.) and that he's going to go ahead and terminate the case.
I call back before 5PM on that same day, and he's already terminated the case, and even though I can get through the secret fort-knox of a phone system they
have to let me in (extension, case number matching employee who extension you put in).
He told me I had to contact 4MY-Xbox for support.
I just about took a dump in my pants.
I paid money for this?
I think if anyone's eligible to start a proper negligence lawsuit to get our money refunded it's people in the repair pool who have had 5 or more replacement
consoles -- and there's more than us out there who are treating their system with kid gloves and are still being F'd in the A.
A lonely, polite and disgruntled Canuck,
Matt
could you let me know where "cloud cuckoo land" is in europe? that mystical country where you can return your defective goods to the store within 2 years. in england, you can certainly physically return your knackered xbox 360 to the shop and ask for a refund / repair / exchange, but don't be surprised when they laugh you off the premises.
fuck.... 732... :(
-Taylor
@lp12spg, well Sweden is even better than "cloud cuckoo land". Here we have the right to return faulty products within 3 years (provided the product wasn't damaged by you, through accident or whatever).
It used to be 2 years here also, but they upped it to 3 years April 1, 2005.
There has to be a reason why MS has done this quietly and on the version of the 360 which is going to get the least attention... I suppose they're doing their good old "the consumer are testers" method, which has been seen on the 360 wireless headset, the 360 Wireless controler PC adapter and other various 360 peripherals.
So I wouldn't errupt into a blaze of fanfares and victory poses just yet, your units may be more unstable and more prone to RRoD than the 90nm CPU units... Time will soon tell...
Xbox360 Working Edition.
LOL.. I can't believe Microsoft made fools of 11 million people.
you're right Mak, I've had a 360 since launch, i've been able to enjoy games like halo3, gears of war, oblivion, pgr3 and a ton of others with no problems whatsoever, damn, what a fool I am. And if my shit breaks down Microsoft will fix it for free? man, fleeced again, that bill gates is out to get me i know it
You know, the XBox was at 90nm when everyone else was moving to 65nm. Now, the Xbox is getting 65nm just when the 45nm processors are due to arrive.
Anyone else feel like the XBox 360 is just gets hand-me-downs?
-Roger
I just own a 360 to go on live with cam and mic to get 14yr old girls to moan and strip on cam who needs a better processor? They need a vibration function fefe accessory controller to get me to cough up more $$
hi... ummm, i dont know if any of you didnt realize this, but usually when you put something like an xbox 360 in a cramped enviroment i.e. an Entertainment Center, which is usually constricted, not very well ventilatted and in some cases very dusty, you system doesnt last that long. Now i know that even if a person were to put it out in the open with a nyoko fan on the back of it and a fan blowing cool air over top, while blowing away dust, that it would probably still crap out on you, but i am willing to bet that by doing that, your system will probably last at least twice to three times as long as they usually do.
If you are so concerned about the chipset or cpu then just buy a nice gaming PC or build one--you'll know exactly what's inside and you'll be able to play Directx 10 games on Vista...
Are the falcon chips ready for the premium yet? because im gonna buy a xbox 360 so i wanna know if i can go to eb games and ask for the premium xbox 360 with the falcon chip
I got a 65-NM chip in mine :-) It also has teh HDMI port.... oh and it's shiny. (+Halo 3 is awesome)