Toronto to add photo surveillance to public transit vehicles

We never thought adding an absurd amount of surveillance cameras to a city (or its public transportation system) would become fashionable, but it seems like Toronto is the next big locale ready to hop on the Big Brother bandwagon. Reportedly, plans are already underway to "ensure every person using Toronto's transit system will be photographed as of next June," which means that some 12,000 cameras will have to be installed on "every [Toronto Transit Commission] bus, streetcar, subway car and at each station." Of course, it's noted that the images acquired will only be used as "crime-busting tools," and the entire system is expected to cost a cool $18 million. Good news for employees / police stationed at the transit system's command center, though -- you'll be able to "view live video or hear audio from any of the security cameras installed on subway cars." Now that's quality entertainment.

[Via The Raw Feed]

[Ellianth @ Oct 23rd 2007 9:56AM]

Many of the toronto transit drivers have the: My daddy owns the TTC attitude. So they get attacked every now and then. Now they feel unsafe and they get cameras :p. I wouldn't want to feel unsafe at work either, so good for them.

[JD @ Oct 23rd 2007 10:38AM]

I live in England so I know a thing or two about CCTV cameras, Guys n Girls just go here and read this site for a few days and you will learn everything you will need to see why they want to watch us ALL THE TIME.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/

[Eric @ Oct 23rd 2007 11:20AM]

Alex Jones will save us all! Vote for Ron Paul!
/puke

[jroc @ Oct 23rd 2007 11:35AM]

JD is right, I don't see why freedom is so bad eric. Big brother is being implemented and it is very obvious I sure as hell dont want cameras in my face.
infowars is also a great site.

[Chad @ Oct 23rd 2007 10:05AM]

As a Toronto transit rider, I don't yet know how I feel about this news. While, I wouldn't do anything illegal do get caught for, I have seen technology like this be used for unlawful purposes. God only knows how poor their current technology is, they only just implemented digital voice readings of transit stops, and not even on all of the cars/trains. I do worry about hackers using this, or possible terrorists (Ok, I watch too much 24). But we did have a terrorist bust in the GTA last year where 12 men were arrested for planning on blowing up the financial district. Imagine they had access to our transit surveillance, the possibilities are scary.

[dj-kenpo @ Oct 23rd 2007 1:13PM]

people always get a little paranoid about cameras pointed at them. I know yours are for different reasons, but as far as I'm concered, if there's 80 people packe don a train with me, they can see me alot more than 1 camera can.

as for terrorists in toronto, lets not go all paranoid k? I don't think you need to worry about toronto being attacked, except from the south ;)

[phrozunsun @ Oct 24th 2007 8:15AM]

I'm not paranoid. But I'm angry they always piss and moan about being broke, raise fares and then they install 18 million dollars worth of cameras.

Instead of raising fares, maybe the starting rate for moody subway conductors shouldn't be $26/hr.....

[Jason @ Oct 23rd 2007 10:15AM]

T. should talk to London about just how many crimes those CCTV cameras solve. So far they have not increased the crime solving rate at ALL.

[Magallanes @ Oct 23rd 2007 11:22AM]

Those camera controls are important to keep the "statu quo", specially since who approve it are guys from the elite caste.

[georges @ Oct 23rd 2007 10:17AM]

Wow, way to go Toronto. We already have a bankrupt transit system! So, let's spend $18 million on a system I haven't heard anyone asking for... not to mention how over budget it will end up!

Forget paying for better bus coverage, fixing infrastructure, naw, forget that.

[dj-kenpo @ Oct 23rd 2007 1:16PM]

ahha, ok. 3 comments in this thread I'm done.
but before that..

funny you bring this up. they're worried about security, presumably people hurting people.
but with the aging vehcils, most likely it's more a matter of vehicles failing, killing/hurting people.

awww the sillyness. but I couldn't run it any better I'm sure.

[jim bean @ Oct 23rd 2007 10:17AM]

they already tried that chow on City TV. It was called train 48 or something. It was awful. Also I've never felt unsafe on the TTC and ride it at all hours.

18 Million on the TTC could be better spent on badly needed utilitarian upgrades. TTC's infrastructure is decrepit compared to any other major city in the world. Com'on Toronto, be Centre of the Universe and get some frickin' Oyster cards or something!

[dj-kenpo @ Oct 23rd 2007 1:14PM]

or new subway lines. queen needs a line

[DonYorke @ Oct 23rd 2007 10:22AM]

/Yay to wasting more tax payers money

I live in Toronto and know the troubles of the Toronto Transit Commision (TTC). This idea to install CCTV is a wash. The transit system here is broke so where they will find the money to construct and maintain this it is a mystery. What usually happens with the TTC is, projects start and fail midway through when the money runs dry, all while raising fares and forgeting to reduce them when them when they have not accomplished nothing.

So engadget readers, look for the fire sale of theese cameras on craigslist in 6 months tops.

[aron @ Oct 23rd 2007 12:45PM]

Yet as a city, we were stupid enough to vote for a guy who was a former commissioner of the TTC to be our MAYOR. No wonder our city is going down the drain. And the TTC is possibly one of the worse transit systems of major cities. We need to privatize the TTC and start developing some of that real estate to pull in some real cash. Higher taxes and fair hikes ain't gonna work. The way it is now, I prefer the drudgery of driving and getting stuck on the DVP, in the comfort of my own car, with a large double double, than getting stuck on the TTC, packed like a sardine, getting yelled at by bus drivers, while facing constant delays.

[Penguin Warlord @ Oct 23rd 2007 4:37PM]

@aron

Forgive me if I'm worng but you have the distinct odor of a Conservative and your points are misleading and incorrect. While I do agree that this is a crappy waste of money I have to point out that our Mayor is doing a very good job and the real problem is 3 things.

1: Mike Harris bankrupted Toronto and left us with an underfunded TTC.

2: The federal government does not provide nearly enough funding for the TTC. The TTC is the most federally underfunded transit system in the world.

3: City councillors won't pass new taxes that will help the TTC out. If you truly believe in equality than you shouldn't be afraid of taxes. Sure they take your money but you end up getting it back in city services, healthcare, education and transportation. Most of the TTC's money comes from taxes.

And how can you complain about TTC fares but think that it would be cheaper if it was privatized. Honestly that's incredibly stupid. You're giving public transportation to a greedy corporation who has literally no competition. They'll be able to charge whatever they want. So think twice before you open you're mouth because the TTC still does a great job, they just need more money.

[aron @ Oct 23rd 2007 10:45PM]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTR

I smelly a funky right winger. Read that before you mouth off too.

[aron @ Oct 23rd 2007 10:49PM]

So many typos :) I meant to say I smell like a right winger? Pathetic when I reply my own post.

[Wonderkid @ Oct 23rd 2007 10:38AM]

Having lived in London for 7 years, and been the victim of crime 3 times and of course read about hundreds of other crimes, believe me, CCTV does nothing. Just as young criminals wear an ASBO with pride, so what better than to appear in a CCTV image on TV - hooded. Just another gang initiation technique. The cameras are there to monitor your average joe who the authorities may want to keep an eye on. To reduce crime the solution has always been to populate public places with policemen who can physically chase and apprehend the criminal - and provide the public a sense of security and comfort. Just another step towards a technologically cold dystopia. What's really sad is no one can do anything about it, yet.

[Mingo-Jones @ Oct 23rd 2007 10:43AM]

In Toronto? C'mon! Toronto isn't like NYC. What a waste of taxpayer's money. Seeing how packed the subways are during rush hours I can't see these CCTVs being useful. It just shows the how incompetent the TTC is!

[Mark @ Oct 23rd 2007 10:49AM]

So that's where the increase in ticket price are going.

[onin @ Oct 23rd 2007 10:53AM]

I was on a TTC bus with like 8 dome cameras on it.

[I.D.M @ Oct 24th 2007 5:31PM]

According to Toronto mayor David Miller, the TTC is so broke the brand new Sheppard line might need to be closed, but they have the budget for ineffective CCTV? Why not just post a few police patrols in each station?

[potato @ Oct 23rd 2007 11:18AM]

Where was the public consultation for it, and why did I have to hear this from Engadget instead of Metro, 24, or heck, one of the major papers?

What a colossal waste of $18M, it's a damned crime considering the poor shape our transit is in, to waste money on senseless things like this, not to mention the privacy concerns.

It's been proven time and time again that ubiquitous surveillance doesn't lower crime rates. I wasn't under the impression that crime was even a significant problem on the TTC!

[amitagarwal @ Oct 23rd 2007 11:18AM]

It's no wonder fares keep going up!

[gork @ Oct 23rd 2007 11:22AM]

So What? We've had camera's on COTA(Central Ohio Transit Authority) buses for quite some time now. Chicago's CTA trains have them too. NOT NEWS.

[Markus @ Oct 23rd 2007 1:17PM]

"12,000 cameras will have to be installed on "every [Toronto Transit Commission] bus, streetcar, subway car and at each station."

Twelve thousand cameras is news.

[gork @ Oct 23rd 2007 2:10PM]

Not hardly.....

EACH Cota bus has at least 3 cameras....one that points forward, 2 that are inside and cover every aspect of the interior of the bus. When you add buses, rail cars, and stations....the number adds up quick. 12,000 may seem like alot, but probably isn't. You got to remember, they probably want to cover every station from as many angles as possible. I have seen anywhere from 5-10 camera's in each station in at least 3 different cities(Chicago, Miami and Washington, DC). Trust me.....12,000 cameras is a drop in the bucket considering they probably aren't even that great of a camera anyway.

[bmck @ Oct 24th 2007 9:46AM]

Philadelphia's subway could use 18million

[Deuz Augustine @ Oct 23rd 2007 11:56AM]

As someone who hasn't lived in Toronto for a while, it seems like a good idea to me ... of course, when I get back and it's the condition some of you above are stating, I might reconsider.

[Justin @ Oct 23rd 2007 1:04PM]

I got news for you, and this isnt it. The ttc has had cameras on a number of the more dangerous bus routes for some time. Even some that I wouldnt consider sketchy at all, like the 42 Cummer bus, granted they probably dont work due to the vanalization but the cameras are there.

[Wes @ Oct 23rd 2007 12:35PM]

They probably could have saved money if they used those fake cameras that look like they're recording. Maybe then they could avoid the fare hikes.

[K-Canuck @ Oct 23rd 2007 12:45PM]

As yet another Torontonian, I agree that this is a total waste of $18 million. I'm not against the system, if it helps against crime (but who's to say it will?), but with a system such as the TTC in such dire need of other overhauls, our $ is better spent elsewhere. I still can't believe that a city this size (equal in size to Berlin) has a measely TWO (and 3/4) subway lines. THAT'S IT! All major cities have dozens of subway lines. It's no wonder it takes an hour to get anywhere in Toronto. Add to that the aging streetcar system that gets stuck in traffic and then has to resort to short-turning each time, and it's no wonder that the populous that take the TTC each day are grumpy.

I will say one thing; recently they introduced an automatic stop announcement system in all the transport (on a trial basis), which closely resembles the better systems of other cities. That, at least, is a step in the right direction.

[Jen @ Oct 23rd 2007 1:19PM]

York Region Transit, the transit system that serves York Region which is directly north of the city, has installed CCTV cameras on all of their rapid transit VIVA buses as well as at some stops that were being vandalized. I don't think that this is a bad thing, especially later at night. There is only ever one driver on the bus, and as a precautionary measure, the cameras work great. Since their installation at the stops, I haven't once seen any vandalism there. Clearly, they are doing their job.

[Sam J @ Oct 23rd 2007 1:25PM]

I think it's a great idea. May stop people thinking of commiting a crime on a subway system I take every work day. As for privacy - hey - you're in public - it's fair game.

[Tom @ Oct 23rd 2007 1:32PM]

All Transperth trains, train stations, and busses have had CCTV for years. CCTV helped solved a rape case at the Maddington train station, a murder at Gosnells train station, and numerous violent acts on the trains. These cases were made highly public, and the role of CCTV was mentioned a lot in the media. This has had a positive impact. Sure, putting more police/transit guards on train services is even better, but CCTV helps.

For one thing, CCTV helps scope out the train from the driver's area, and from the transit guard station, as all cameras are a live feed. This allows the transit guards to know exactly which trains to board if there is antisocial behaviour etc.

[James Cameron @ Oct 23rd 2007 1:39PM]

What a waste of money. The camera is not going to stop the crime. They'll wait until the person is out of site from the camera and commit their act. Even if the camera hill help in solving the crime but it's already after the fact.

Most of the crimes aren't even committed on the transits. What a freaking joke TO. The camera are there probably just to protect the drivers. It's a cover up to say it's there to protect the commuters but it's actually there for the drivers.

[T @ Oct 23rd 2007 1:40PM]

FYI: bus drivers get paid 60k per year. How many of those can we afford?

[tiuk @ Oct 23rd 2007 1:41PM]

Yikes, this is getting to be a bit close to home.

[Tarandon @ Oct 23rd 2007 2:14PM]

But are they Solar Powered so as to remain Carbon Neutral? That's the real question.

[hp540 @ Oct 23rd 2007 2:16PM]

Another Torontonian chipping in...I just have to say the TTC is crap. And 18 million for cameras is an idiotic waste because knowing how inefficiently the TTC utilizes resources, the project will either go significantly over-budget or it will be canceled part way through.

Having recently spent some time in Hong Kong and riding their MTR daily (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTR), coming back to Toronto and riding the TTC feels like going 30 years back in time.

Come on guys...paper tickets? paper transfers? tokens? Flat fares meaning you're charged the same whether you travel one station or ten? Bus lines that are never on time, a pitiful subway extension, etc etc etc. I think the list goes on and on. If there's something that should be privatized, it's the TTC - cut out the fat and inefficiency. There's a massive plot of prime real-estate on top of Eglinton Station that has been stagnating.

[richard Wager @ Oct 23rd 2007 4:18PM]

I live in London where Big Brother is in full effect and as others have said cctv does little to help stop day to day crime.My average day in the city is something like this.
The moment i leave my flat for work in the morning there are two cctv cameras watching.Then i catch the bus to the tube station,The buses all have cctv both in side watching passengers and outside watching traffic.This is scary part though Oystercards (the travel card you have to use in London if you want the cheapest fairs)
as soon i use the card my identity location and time of travel are registered.Next i enter the tube station where i'am greeted by many more cctv cameras in the entrance and again i have to use my Oyster and all my details are logged with Big Brother again.Walk down to the platform with yet more cctv and then on to the tube train with has cameras in every carriage.Then when i reach my destination its the same again, tube station, bus cctv watching our every move, the oyster card registering our id.At any point in my day i walk past so many cameras its mind blowing.Do i have anything to hide or worry about?no but this is just the start
2+2= ??????

[Laurence @ Oct 23rd 2007 3:22PM]

Some comments in here echo the utter stupidity of Torontonians in their belief of how bad the TTC is.
First, $18-million is pennies in a billion dollar budget. All you saying that the money should go to building subways are obviously from a different planet, as a kilometre of subway costs $250-million.. so if you want to build 100 metres of subway so be it.
I'm not 100% for the CCTV system either, but the privacy laws that are in place in Canada, and the fact that in-vehicle cameras will only be able to be accessed by the police if there was a crime committed, I'm not too worried. And this is not new news, it's been for awhile, as one poster mentioned. This was primarily in response to the shooting on a 35 Jane bus a couple years back where a stray bullet hit a 7-year old girl. As for CCTV in the stations, the current system is ridiculously outdated, even systems like Edmonton and Calgary are more advanced than Toronto's. The sheer fact that the TTC is a much older and much larger system means that it'll cost more -- and a good chunk of it is coming from the Federal government for enhancing security on our public transit systems. Station CCTV can also be used to monitor service conditions and respond to other emergencies faster to help improve service.
And you can't really compare the TTC to the MTR in Hong Kong. Their system opened in 1978, Toronto opened in 1954. That's a huge 25 year gap in technology. Nor can you compare it to a lot of European cities. For a system that operates in a very auto-dominated culture that is North America, the TTC is above and beyond many systems, but that doesn't mean there isn't room to improve. But until the day that the funding formula improves for operations (i.e. most of the so-called 'pretty' systems in North America receives a huge chunk of their funding from government, whereas the TTC receives the lowest government subsidy on the continent), it's going to be hard to be the best run and prettiest system in the world.

And for you smart-card geeks: why spend $200-million (the cost to retrofit the TTC with smart cards) to replace a system (tokens, magnetic passes, tickets) that works fine? I really haven't ever heard someone say they're not gonna take the subway because they don't use smart cards.....

-- sorry for the total digression from typical engadget conversation

[Chris.L @ Oct 23rd 2007 4:15PM]

yup, this is really becoming common...

I'm photographed at least 20 times a day on the subway alone, and with th 30 or so cameras at my school, I can hardly go anywhere without being photographed in there.

In the buses here, theres a message that says that the bus may have a camera, but its impossible to tell which do and which don't because the ones that do, have the camera mountained like the one on the bus in "Speed", right behind the mirror locate next to the front door.

[Dahk @ Oct 23rd 2007 4:23PM]

Can't they at least spend $100 to change the ringtone of the frickin' subway system.

[Penguin Warlord @ Oct 23rd 2007 4:42PM]

It is a big deal in Toronto where the TTC is scrambling for money to keep all the bus and streetcar routes open. And Toronto doesn't have the same kind of crime as the US. I have personally never felt unsafe on the TTC and I've ridden it at pretty much every time of day. This is huge waste of money.

[Dan B. @ Oct 23rd 2007 6:28PM]

Sure, it'll help with crime -- to the extent that footage will help minimize their fiscal liability.

How much per year does TTC spend on liability insurance premiums, attorney and administration fees, and claim or judgment payouts related to personal injury claims or other lawsuits based on events occurring on (or because of) their property?

I'm certain it's NOT in excess of $18 million per year, but I'm guessing that number relates to a cost savings over the lifetime of the first system-wide install vs. what they'd pay in claims for that same period of time.

[dalmond @ Oct 23rd 2007 11:08PM]

This is all part of the conservative Feds transit plans. they are footing the bill for this though the TTC has called for more security.

[Stephen @ Oct 24th 2007 6:28PM]

Regarding your reference to the London Oyster system, we do indeed have our own version, called Presto:

http://www.prestocard.ca/

It's running trials right now, to iron bugs out, but by 2010 will be accepted on TTC (some stations) and GO transit systems, as well as transit systems in Brampton, Burlington, Durham Region, Hamilton, Mississauga, Oakville and York Region.

Wikipedia also has an entry on it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presto_card

[Life Insurance Toronto @ Nov 5th 2007 6:53AM]

I think it's not a bad idea at all. Subway systems are still a magnet for crime and this way it will drop by a lot. I don't think you have to worry about your privacy either, there's just way too much information to process and I'm sure the employees will be overwhelmed enough to pay attention to someone in particular if there's no need.

Lorne Marr,
www.lsminsurance.ca