Woz raps on Apple for lower ideals, locked iPhone, less innovative UI

Joining a growing crowd of people to complain about the general lack of openness in the iPhone is none other than Steve Wozniak, co-founder of the company. Woz has a reputation for being critical of the company he helped create, although no-one would argue that his views are unreasonable: in an interview he calls into question Apple's treatment of the iPhone as an appliance, and not as a computer platform designed to allow users to install their own apps at will ("I'm really for the unlockers, the rebels trying to make it free.") He also took a dig at Leopard, saying that OSes aren't what sell computers these days, and that OS updates today are nothing more than slow improvements, rather than a procession towards a UI that works "for someone who knows nothing about the computer." Personally, we think these are fair viewpoints: as much as we may hate to say it, a lot of new technology these days requires a compromise. Isn't it about time compromise took a back seat?

[Thanks, Jame]

[Spencer Slezak @ Oct 30th 2007 12:05AM]

Go Woz!

[paul34 @ Oct 30th 2007 12:10AM]

Woz ftw!

[Jeff @ Oct 30th 2007 12:26AM]

Does this mean that Engadget, and the fanboys are going to start attacking Woz now?

I mean he did say not so nice things about Apple.

[Chad @ Oct 30th 2007 8:50AM]

Is is just me or did anyone else think that wa Chuck Norris at first glance?

[JAmerican @ Oct 30th 2007 2:35PM]

He signed my laptop :P

http://www.jamerican.net/?p=49

and its the only one on ebay...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=330182059155&Category=14909&_trksid=p3907.m29

[Trace The Hedgehog @ Oct 30th 2007 7:00PM]

Woz is my hero =3

[John @ Oct 30th 2007 12:07AM]

His comment about OSes is why I'm holding off upgrading anything until Windows 7... superficial changes indeed. While I don't think that non-computer illiterate friendly OSes are necessarily the best route, all recent OS updates seem to just be prettier, 'cooler'.

[Vexorg @ Oct 30th 2007 2:24AM]

"Computing these days is a race between programmers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the universe, striving to build bigger and better idiots. So far, the universe is winning."

-Rich Cook

[Vanillacide @ Oct 30th 2007 9:27AM]

RE: "rather than a procession towards a UI that works "for someone who knows nothing about the computer.""

Doesn't this comment show that Woz is out of touch?

The amount of people who know nothing about computers was a huge percentage of the population in the 1970s when Apple was founded, and Woz mattered, but these days many people are either in a demographic that has grown up with them or are older people who use them every day at work and became familiar that way. Ergo, there number of people "who knows nothing about the computer" is practically zero ... at least in the first world.

[Geir E @ Oct 30th 2007 6:04AM]

To make a major change in how operative systems works would affect probably every application running on it. And that is not done in a heartbeat. One got to accept the fact that from the 80s to the 90s the change in possibilities were extreme - but now the new possibilities in every generation isn't that huge.

But the small changes are more important. Like backup with time machine. Could it be any easier for the typical mom and dad to keep the digital photos safe? I bet most families does not have backups. Just that small addition to a operative system is an huge improvement in the usage of a computer.

[Don @ Oct 30th 2007 6:29PM]

I've had this for my Windows machine for 5 years. It's called "GoBack". I guess Apple took a "Time Machine" back a few years, saw what Windows developers were doing then, and came back to the future to "innovate".

[redfish @ Oct 31st 2007 2:24AM]

"The amount of people who know nothing about computers was a huge percentage of the population in the 1970s when Apple was founded, and Woz mattered, but these days many people are either in a demographic that has grown up with them or are older people who use them every day at work and became familiar that way. Ergo, there number of people "who knows nothing about the computer" is practically zero ... at least in the first world."

This may in fact be Woz's point : he may in fact be saying 'its stupid to expect updates to make the OS easier, because we're as easy as it needs to be, and this is why the OS doesn't sell computers anymore'

Why are people interpreting it the other way? Do they know about some context I don't

[JAmerican @ Oct 30th 2007 12:11AM]

This is because he came to RIT and someone asked him if Apple should hire George Hotz for hacking the iPhone.

JAmerican

[Darryl @ Oct 30th 2007 12:12AM]

He speaks the truth.

There is no passion left in Apple, the rebel that took on a monopolisitic giant....

Today its too focused on market share and stock holders to care about the consumer and the ideals and passions it once stood for.

This is why I have lost faith in the company I once loved.

I'm with ya' Woz.

[LordFarkward @ Oct 30th 2007 12:26AM]

"Today its too focused on market share and stock holders to care about the consumer and the ideals and passions it once stood for."

i can't say i agree completely: i'm a shareholder myself, and the recent unfold of events have started to make me wonder if i should hold the stock for any longer.

i too once believed the love apple has generated from the consumers, and could see why it could sustain such a loyal bunch within its realms. this is exactly why i believed in apple's future and bought apple shares even though i myself don't like any of their products (don't like ipod's sound quality, am too used to 'winblows', need a 3.5G phone etc). this belief that i used to have have rewarded me handsomely, but i must admit that my belief is now slowly fading...

[Zadillo @ Oct 30th 2007 12:34AM]

I think that seems like a bit of a broad generalization though. Certainly Apple hasn't been perfect lately, but to say that they only care about marketshare and stockholders, and not the consumer, doesn't seem to really be fair. A lot of what they do, especially in terms of UI design and device design, is still about creating consumer-friendly devices. The iPhone and iPod Touch do show that Apple still has a passion for creating truly new platforms and devices and ways of interacting with things (and you'll note that Woz praises these things in the interview above).

So no, Apple isn't perfect, but I don't buy the idea that they've lost all of their passion or don't still care about creating new platforms and products.

[Zadillo @ Oct 30th 2007 12:36AM]

And in all seriousness, which Apple are you comparing this too exactly? What passion and ideals did Apple as a corporation really represent for large chunks of the 80's and 90's? If you're talking about the Apple of the 70's, yes, it's true that Apple is no longer that company, but I don't think that means that what it is now is inherently worse.

[Quix @ Oct 30th 2007 1:24AM]

"There is no passion left in Apple, the rebel that took on a monopolisitic giant...." - Darryl

While I agree that Apple has been heading down dark and ill-chosen paths as of late (closed iPhone, lame AppleTV, lack of gaming-capable consumer Macs, etc.), I can't agree that the company lacks passion. The iPod, the iPhone, the iMac, Leopard - these are beautiful products that ooze passion and obsession with detail.

Sure, Apple did make some questionable (lame) UI decisions with Leopard, but still...Apple is currently putting out the best products in its history.

Passionate? Definitely. Becoming drunk and arrogant from the success? Sadly, yes.

That said, I'll take a reckless, pompous genius (Apple) over a devious, unimaginative weasel (Microsoft) any day.

[Alejandro @ Oct 30th 2007 1:48AM]

-------
"Today its too focused on market share and stock holders to care about the consumer and the ideals and passions it once stood for."

i can't say i agree completely: i'm a shareholder myself, and the recent unfold of events have started to make me wonder if i should hold the stock for any longer.
-------

Hey Lord Farquad...

You're wondering if you should hold the stock for any longer? You wonder if they're only thinking about shareholders and profits? Take a look at the value of the stock you hold. If Apple have a good holiday season (you know they will) the value of your stock will have nearly quadrupled in around 2 years. Not many companies are delivering that bang for the buck (especially at the "entrance price" from 2 years ago).

Now, I've never been a fanboy. Guess I came close to being one, but little by little they have found a way to displease me with every launch. So... must not be consumers they're so focused on. It's Wall Street... can't say I blame them, but that's just the way it is.

Cheers,
A

[LordFarkward @ Oct 30th 2007 2:16AM]

hi alejandro

i totally agree with the xmas season - with new ipods (more like touch, the classics are 'meh' and the nano's are fat), iphone, new imacs (with leopard), 1Q08 is going to ROCK.

don't worry, i said i'm 'starting to wonder' if i should unload, i originally intended to hold till end of 2008, but now i'm just 'wondering' if i should unload earlier than that ;)

[Philometalist @ Oct 30th 2007 12:15AM]

Absolutely. Rock On Woz!

[a ham sandwich @ Oct 30th 2007 12:15AM]

come on engadget! based on the title i thought woz actually rapped! you ruined my hopes!!! lol :P

that woulda been AWESOME!

[Craig @ Oct 30th 2007 12:16AM]

you know, i'm glad apple has such a small portion of the OS market share. apple has really shown its true colors with the release of the latest ipods... locking out features, locking out third-party accessories, basically anything it can do to exploit the ipod's position in the market

[Zadillo @ Oct 30th 2007 12:25AM]

To be fair, reading the interview, he still has a fair amount of praise for the iPhone as well as what Apple is doing overall (he basically says Apple is well positioned for new types of devices, moving away from the monolithic desktop PC, etc.).

[ericdano @ Oct 30th 2007 12:36AM]

Woz, go away. Really. Go away. You have done nothing other than play with Kathy lately. I know you are sad that your Segway polo thing is over, but find another hobby. I know, maybe exercise. Drop some pounds. Maybe walk a little rather than using the Segway.

Oh, and STFU while you are at it.

[umm....hello??? @ Oct 30th 2007 12:48AM]

you're a frickin' moron. Woz offered a insightful analysis, and all you can do is slam what his personal life and provide nothing relevant to this post? do us all a favor and take your own advice: STFU.

[Jeff @ Oct 30th 2007 12:56AM]

Woz should be the one running Apple. He is humble, kind, generous, likable, a true geek of the old school.

The kind that Apple fanboys are too full of themselves to ever be. He doesn't live through a logo.

I swear I would love to get him, Gates, and Shuttleworth around a table and listen to them talk.

[Alejandro @ Oct 30th 2007 1:54AM]

-----
Woz should be the one running Apple. He is humble, kind, generous, likable, a true geek of the old school.

The kind that Apple fanboys are too full of themselves to ever be. He doesn't live through a logo.

I swear I would love to get him, Gates, and Shuttleworth around a table and listen to them talk.
-----

@Jeff:

You need to get real!! Woz running the company? That would be a sight... he would be EATEN ALIVE in this world. I'm a dreamer, but in this day and age, an idealistic utopian like Woz running a company is not going to go far. I'm not saying that's cool, or that I like it, but it's the plain truth!

As much as I dislike most of what Apple has come out with in the past couple of years (except maybe for iWork), it has been successful... as opposed to the utopia years. We all know how THAT went.

It's a dog eat dog world... and Woz simply would NEVER attract the level of investment that Jobs has. He wouldn't even LIKE running the company.. he's said so on a number of occasions himself.

Cheers,
alejandro

[Andrew Horn @ Oct 30th 2007 12:39AM]

I feel like people like apple when it was there own little secret (not from other techies, but from you're avearage windows user), and now that everyone and they're mom knows a thing or two about the mac, and with the success of the iPod and iPhone, people feel like it lost some of the cool factor. The larger apple gets, the more people will start to find flaw with it. I feel like sometimes people don't realize that it's not their right to an unlocked iPhone.
As an example, I wouldn't say the latest OS is any more superficial than the last one, it has some useful functions and a lot of things I don't need. Just like Tiger. Anyways I just don't see his point in that respect.


Anyways, it's pretty clear that it's becoming trendy not to like Apple in the tech-blog world. Apple is still trendy as frick in the real world though. . . most i talk to on campus resent their windows decision/are two uninformed about computers to realize what they have. I'm ranting. . .

[Jeff @ Oct 30th 2007 12:56AM]

So people who use Windows are uninformed, which is the Mac dickwads way of saying they are stupid.

And you wonder why people cant stand Apple. Its users are some of the biggest a*holes, and as far as i've seen, they aren't as smart or creative as they would like to think of themselves as being.

[Andrew Horn @ Oct 30th 2007 1:06AM]

Ouch. . .
ok well I would have to say you misinterpreted my comment. Let me rephrase. There are plenty of people out there who are very happy with their windows decision. Even so, there are MANY people that I talk to that are unhappy with they're windows decision. Now, excluding those that consciously chose mac/consciously chose windows, there is a large number of uninformed people on here that wouldn't know the diff. between a mac or pc. So, as a dickwad, I would like to point out that a LARGE portion of this campus has macs. A very very large portion, and I will reiterate, they are trendy as all hell here.

[tits @ Oct 30th 2007 1:22AM]

hehe... you drunk! Reality is mac users generaly know a lot less about computer than the average pc user. im not talking about secretaries here... Mac users just start noticing what is a videocard... come on! how much do you see mac users building there own systems? how much do you see mac network, server and render farms? niet! kaputt! only Pixar had one in the past because its Steve jobs company... And in my field, computer animation and graphic design, im sorry to tell this, but its pretty rare a mac user can animate a camera correctly, junior they are. Mac is the easy way. Easy way is sometime good, no doubt, all praise to that, but I am more trusting people who got it the hard way. Windows is ugly but software compatibility and performance vs price is the key to success.

[Andrew Horn @ Oct 30th 2007 10:23AM]

So yeah. . . I know nothing about computers. Thats not sarcasm at all, I literally know very little about the innards of a comp. Me and the other 80% of america. So, I'm not sure how easy is a bad thing for most. Anyways it's a frugal argument. I don't know why I'm bothering haha. Perhaps sober I would feel otherwise ;)

[pepper @ Oct 30th 2007 1:42AM]

i dont personally know that many people with mac products(mac books, ipod), maybe five. but EVERY one of them wish they would have went with something else. on my campus absolutely none of the software needed for the program i'm in works with a mac, a girl in my program found that out the hard way. i think they have nice products but as a part time gamer i dont see me buying a mac as the games arent there for them. i wouldent buy an iphone as my phone works just fine and wouldent have a need for most the fancy little features built in. and windows has been pretty good to me including vista as everything i had for xp also worked for vista other than nero 7 but got that taken care of shortly after launch.

i'd agree with the other guy that every hardcore mac guy i've met has been an asshole, and almost everyone who's comments i read online backs that up.

[John Doe @ Oct 30th 2007 8:23AM]

yes... "tits"

Perhaps some of us don't run server and render farms, or play lots of video games on our computers. Perhaps some of us want "laptops". Perhaps we want said "laptops" to "work".

sincerely,
a "dickwad"

[facebookfake @ Oct 30th 2007 12:42AM]

Apple is just like any other company. And anyone who ever thought otherwise was kidding themselves. They did do a good job spreading their "rebel" persona for awhile there, but it was just an add campaign.

And please don't accuse me of being a "windows fanboy." I have no allegiances when it comes to operating systems. Whatever company is going to produce a stable, flexible OS for a reasonable amount of money, I'm going to buy from them. Or I'll jump on the linux boat.

[Shawn @ Oct 30th 2007 12:56AM]

Yeah, well when you jump on the linux boat (in forever), even microsoft will leave you decades behind.

Woz, rock on dude! He represents what every Apple consumer wants in Apple!

[huh @ Oct 30th 2007 1:06AM]

@Shawn; "people who don't base their products on Unix are bound to reinvent the wheel."

It's been fun watching user data on Windows migrate from the program directory (!!!!) to Documents & Settings to Users. Other than that, things haven't changed very much for the end user, they've just moved things around and added extra steps.

[manimal @ Oct 30th 2007 3:40AM]

@Shawn - its funny you seem to think windows will leave linux in the dust.. just comparing ubuntu to vista, I'd have to say feature wise and usability wise, you fanboys are the ones going to be left in the dust. do I need to suggest a proper multi-user system? I have yet to see one from M$ that can do what linux could years ago.. even os/2 warp could handle that.....now who's decades behind?

[manimal @ Oct 30th 2007 4:01AM]

correction, os/2 couldn't either.. but linux.. hah.. decades behind my ass..

[Jason White @ Oct 30th 2007 1:03AM]

GO WOZ!! Someone needs to "rap" on apple. This whole "no cash or apple dollars" for an iphone is just crazy. Somebody needs to get slapped for that one. Now as far as the less innovative UI, I think apple can iron some wrinkles out of leopard, but all in all its a great improvement to me. Tiger was awesome, but I think once leopard is out for about a month or 2, after apple has pushed 1-2 updates, I think it will be better.

[rwba03194 @ Oct 30th 2007 1:17AM]

Perhaps I am too much of an Academic per se, but being someone very involved in the field of academia I somewhat wish Engadget and other blogs would at least footnote if not quote their citations. Not that I don't believe that the blogs that I read such as Engadget don't research their quotes before posting them but I think that some academic rigor in the way that they post, similar to the kind of rigor we have to follow in academia would be appreciated. Engadget is an exemplary source of news and other sites should be equally careful over what they post but it wouldn't hurt a source like Engadget to take the lead in referencing where they are getting their quotes from.

[Jamoses @ Oct 30th 2007 1:17AM]

I'm no fanboy and perhaps I'm also not a purist so forgive me for saying that I don't care how locked down the iPhone is, it is a game changing device and I applaud apple for having the creativity to release it at all and not allowing it to get watered down by the wireless carriers (it really could have been just another moto ROKR phone with an apple logo on it if AT&T had their way). They might not be the benevolent company Woz wants but there does come a point of diminishing returns when you are creating spectacular niche products to solve mankinds computing needs that nobody has access to like the apple of old. Compromise is a good thing. Now we have a situation where more people have access to better technology. No its not the BEST thing or the most advanced feature rich thing out there but its the best that the market will bear as a mass appeal device. Maybe they are not the BEST products but at least they are still creative and innovative compared to what exists in the market presently. If apple ceased to innovate, I'd have more sympathy for those who call apple a heartless corporate machine, but I still see innovation and I don't see the same thought going into 99% of the other crap on the market today.

[Reid B. @ Oct 30th 2007 1:18AM]

Go Woz! Apple has become big brother, corporate greed and crappy products all in one swell foop. Hell, they can't even get iTunes right anymore. The constant problems with the iPhone and the new iPods are unexcusable. Apple is all about the money. It is no longer producing the computers and products for the rest of us. Jobs need to ignore the whorebois and start listening to real consumers.

[helio9000 @ Oct 30th 2007 1:20AM]

The iPhone is a breakthrough currently stifled by not being more open
- we'll see how much that changes when the SDK comes out. I'm hoping
for the best.

But on the larger point of the OS situation there doesn't seem to be much magic happening. There is very little in any OS today that wasn't in a forward thinking GUI book in some form by 1990 and in general OS dev has moved with almost excruciating caution compared to the advances in hardware. It isn't that it is bad but it is disappointing that the basic concepts are just being refined and that no one has really blown the box open.

Most of all it is a shame that topics like this often lapse into useless fanboism because ultimately, it would be better for all of us if not just Apple, but MS and linux and maybe a couple of garaged up Jobs and Wozs in, I don't know, Bangalore or wherever were pushing harder.

[Brad @ Oct 30th 2007 1:20AM]

Don't get me wrong — I love Woz as much as the next fanboy — but he's kind of contradicting himself here. He disagrees about the iPhone being an appliance, and then takes a dig at Leopard being an incremental improvement.

Here's the thing: the iPhone IS a handheld computer, and its precisely its appliance-like nature that keeps the average user unaware that. The average user considers an iPhone a souped-up iPod, and not a tiny Mac running a specialized version of OS X.

Yes, there are annoying business decisions made around the iPhone, but technologically speaking, it's the very UI revolution that he seems to be pining for.

[Dinraj Pradeep @ Oct 30th 2007 1:43AM]

Bigger fonts and glossy icons is NOT a UI revolution.

[Brad @ Oct 30th 2007 11:26AM]

I'm sorry: what does Vista have to do with this?

[Zorque @ Oct 30th 2007 1:43AM]

I always thought OS X was designed for both new and experienced users, and that was one of the reasons given for the one-button mouse (so as not to confuse older and less-experienced users). It's always been pretty easy and intuitive to me.

[facebookfake @ Oct 30th 2007 1:57AM]

Dear God I hate that one-button mouse. The only time I ever have to use a mac is in a video editing lab (I'm not sure why because I don't think Final Cut is all that impressive either) and the one-button mouse is completely useless. Ctrl click my ass.