Nokia and Apple to clash over touchscreen cellphone patents?

So by now you've heard about a little multi-touch device called the iPhone right? And you're well aware that Nokia is set to deliver their new S60 Touch Interface and likely a few new touch-screen devices sometime in 2008. Well, according to Richard Windsor, a London-based analyst with Nomura, Nokia could see "delays or holdups" in its smartphone strategy if Apple decides to unleash its army of lawyers in defense of its over 200 iPhone-related patent filings. (Note: that's "filings" not patents granted for intellectual property.) According to Mr. Windsor, "I think Apple will likely view Nokia as infringing on its user interface patents." Having said that, he further speculates that Apple and Nokia will likely end up in a settlement by 2009 in order to avoid a lengthy Qualcomm vs. Nokia battle in the courts. Of course, in a system whereby laggards and leaders attempt to gain or maintain competitive advantage through lawsuits and lobbyists rather than the innovations of their own engineers, anything goes. And yeah, we know there are a lot of ifs in there. Still, don't forget that Apple failed to defend the "look and feel" of its Mac OS in court against Microsoft back in the Windows 2.0 days, and Nokia's been making touchscreen devices for years, not months like Apple. So, lesson learned or big trouble in little Espoo, what say you? We're guessing the latter if that demonstration device (on the right) is ever released.

[MickeyMoo @ Nov 28th 2007 6:52AM]

The ultimate irony would be if the Nokia, the Meizu, and the iPhone all rolled off the same subcontract assembly line.

[Lasse @ Nov 28th 2007 6:56AM]

Apple might have 200 patents on touch UI. BUT Nokia is a heavy on all other mobile phones patents. So most likely Apple is breaking some of Nokias, and then they will not try bully Nokia for breaking some of theirs. As this would make Nokia go after Apple for the once they have broken in the already launched iPhone...

[sr @ Nov 28th 2007 7:05AM]

Possibly, but Nokia does not subcontract their higher-end phones. The entire N-series officially sold in the US market is still made in Finland.

[MickeyMoo @ Nov 28th 2007 8:36AM]

Wow - i had no idea, that's great that they support their own economy, maybe we'll.... nah who am I kidding.

[pscs @ Nov 30th 2007 10:01AM]

err, instead of using the $$$$ to hire lawyers, file patents and sue each other, how 'bout just lower the price of the iPhone???

[wasabi @ Nov 28th 2007 6:55AM]

meh whatever, the iphone is so overrated

[Brad @ Nov 28th 2007 2:11PM]

Yeah, and so are Apple's Patent Lawyers, but that doesn't mean it won't happen. Really, if Apple fears that it will be a competing product, they'll sue to hold it up or make it cost more.

Think Different.

[Matthew Hilario @ Dec 5th 2007 7:18PM]

replied to what you said about the roaming charges..incase you forget.

http://www.engadget.com/2007/12/05/continental-airlines-trialing-cellphone-boarding-passes/1#c9147851

[teel @ Nov 28th 2007 7:02AM]

I highly doubt Nokia is going to release something that just a first public concept device of a new technology as it is. Yeah, it is pretty iPhone, but I'm sure the actual products will be more Nokia. No doubt Apple will try to get its share of this and probably will get some too :)

[Ike Turner @ Nov 28th 2007 7:03AM]

I hate them "anal lyst"..

[Joe @ Nov 28th 2007 7:04AM]

Verizon`s soon-to-be open network with new phones likely to come from Nokia that will run on their best network , spells trouble for both Apple AND Android. Apple and Google just got sucker-punched ;)

[sr @ Nov 28th 2007 7:06AM]

Try more like 4-5 years before verizon switches to LTE.

[yoshi @ Nov 28th 2007 8:02AM]

Apple may have been sucker-punched - depending on the terms of their contract with ATT, but Google should be just fine. There's no reason why phones using their new OS can't work with Verizon.

[Anthony @ Nov 28th 2007 9:34AM]

AT&T has exclusive U.S. rights to the GSM iPhone. Don't think Apple is smart enough to leave itself a CMDA out...when Verizon opens their network I suspect we'll see a lot of new cdma devices, one of which could be a cdma iPhone.

[macona @ Nov 28th 2007 12:38PM]

Verizons open network still does not negate the fact that Verizon sucks ass.

[SuperPrime @ Nov 28th 2007 7:16AM]

Nokia
Revenue €41.121 billion (2006)[1]
Operating income €5.488 billion (2006)
Net income €4.306 billion (2006)

Apple
Revenue US$24.01 billion (TTM FY 2007)[1]
Operating income US$4.41 billion (TTM FY 2007)
Net income US$3.50 billion (TTM FY 2007)

Not likely Apple will have any say in what Nokia does.

[lassi @ Nov 28th 2007 7:26AM]

well, nokia has a shitload of patents for patent warring if apple wants to go that route.


besides, nokia has had touchscreen devices before... and licensed tech from others for the haptic stuff etc.

[Rk @ Nov 29th 2007 7:17PM]

Let's convert into the same currency next time, eh?

[Pdexter @ Nov 28th 2007 10:14AM]

Nokia is doing 3x better now than ever and those 2007 profits will probally be crazy as its profit and phones sold has been amazing in every quarter this year(yes i'am a share holder =)).
That said maybe with out Apple, Google and so on we might have seen example Nokia to take it easy as there just isnt really a competition for Nokia as now or after Moto went down for now at least.

[randy @ Nov 28th 2007 2:07PM]

Numbers mean nothing, it's the law that prevails.

http://www.nissan.com/Digest/The_Story.php

[tcardone05 @ Nov 28th 2007 7:07PM]

What world are you living in?

[sur5 @ Nov 28th 2007 7:26AM]

Let's not forget here that Apple is paying Nokia for the use of some of its patents...for use in their iPhone.

[Ponts @ Nov 28th 2007 7:39AM]

"...and Nokia's been making touchscreen devices for years, not months like Apple."

What devices?

[armand @ Nov 28th 2007 7:45AM]

Apple did touchscreen devices with way before Nokia : The Newton message pad had a touchscreen and could do hand writing recognition..

[Bazza @ Nov 28th 2007 7:51AM]

Do some simple google research both of you. Knowledge is power, if used wisely.

[Rich @ Nov 28th 2007 7:54AM]

@Ponts
Nokia developed a touch UI called S90 a long time ago. The only device released using it was the Nokia 7710. I'd imagine Symbian (a company they have a 49% stake in) own quite a few UI patents relating to the Psion PDA UI too.

[Argot @ Nov 28th 2007 8:55AM]

You should all check out Jeff Han and educate yourself about the origin of the touchscreen:

http://cs.nyu.edu/~jhan/

[Brad @ Nov 28th 2007 2:19PM]

Jeff Han did not invent the touchscreen. He invented a particular type of multi-touch interface, one which is fundamentally different from the one used in the iPhone and the Multitouch Touchpads on the Macbook Pros.

Jeff Han used Frustrated Total Internal Reflection, a method by which Infrared Light is bounced off of fingertips towards a camera running "blob" recognition software. Touchscreens have been around for decades. Apple didn't "invent" them (even though they built a device that used them) and Nokia didn't invent the PDA interface. Neither of them has the "moral" high ground here. It'll all come down to who has carefully written patents. And that's hard to say, since none of us (at least none of the commenters) are patent lawyers.

Wait and see.

[deslock @ Nov 28th 2007 7:47AM]

It's plausible that there will be some sort of patent conflict and settlement, but at this point any talk about possible infringement is just speculation. So put down the torches and wait and see how it plays out before getting uppity.

Personally, I think the iPhone's most important feature is one that no one talks about: its capacitance touchscreen. It's durable and very responsive to finger input... I won't go back to pressure-sensitive screens after using it.

However, while that's innovative in that it's never been used in a phone (AFAIK), I doubt it's patentable (though the way Apple determines intended tap points probably is). Same goes for visual voice mail. The iPhone's interface and web browser are also vastly superior to existing phones', but I'm sure Nokia can come out with something comparable (or at least almost as good) without outright ripping off Apple. And Nokia's competing devices will undoubtable include a GPS, voice/video recording, MMS, and other features that the iPhone lacks. With Android coming out and HTC working on some interesting enhancements to the WM interface, next year ought to be exciting for gadget geeks.

[Carbonize @ Nov 28th 2007 8:14AM]

Can't say I've seen anything particularly amazing in the iPhones UI. I mean fine the flicking is a new way of navigating but the UI just reminds me of lots of existing UIs.

As to the web browser Nokia will more than likely go with Opera which, in my opinion and experience, is far superior to Safari. Not as good as Firefox though.

BTW the O2 adverts here in the UK sell the iPhone by saying you don't get watered down version of the internet. Does that mean the iPhone can handle Flash, Java, Quicktime, Real etc?

[Rk @ Nov 28th 2007 8:26AM]

As far as I'm aware the iPhone handles Quicktime fine but these components of which you speak are not imperative to running a full version of the internet. Basically it's not wap and it's not 'mobile' sites. I never thought of plug-ins as making the internet less watered down.

[MickeyMoo @ Nov 28th 2007 8:42AM]

RK - try turning all your plugins off and surfing for a week and lets us know if you hold the same opinion when you're done. ;-)

(it's a million times better than WAP - but it'd be great if Apple supported a more open architecture on their mobile browsers. I know - security - but still....)

[mattg @ Nov 28th 2007 12:02PM]

@ "As far as I'm aware the iPhone handles Quicktime fine but these components of which you speak are not imperative to running a full version of the internet." -RK // actually, the lack of support for those features was a big concern of mine agaainst the apple wifi portables (vs. Archos).

BUT, what im wondering is regarding the '200 patent filings' note, how many were approved? how many were turned down as derivative? ultimately, how many were used under license from other companies?

i ask because it goes a long way to the 'innovativeness' of apple, as well as the flashback to jobs keynote truncation where his slide says there are "200+ patents for new innovations in iPhone"

[Fark @ Nov 28th 2007 8:42AM]

I don't see why people think Nokia and Apple are going to get into some nasty patent arguments ala Qualcomm and Broadcom. Both have worked well in the past- Nokia phones sync very well with iSync, and Nokia uses Safari in their phones.

And @Carbonize: I take it you actually haven't used an iPhone. (And who still uses RealPlayer?)

[Magallanes @ Nov 28th 2007 9:39AM]

Realplayer came by default in latest nokia cellphone.

[tmnag @ Nov 28th 2007 9:04AM]

Um, the individual analyst is London-based, not the gigantic Japanese investment bank. I would have expected the name to tip you off.

[riggs @ Nov 28th 2007 9:19AM]

sony sues them both in the end.

[Pdexter @ Nov 28th 2007 10:13AM]

Ricker indeed theres a lot of ifs and i still dont get this Apple vs Nokia thing(for real). Their portfolios(Apple phone portfolio=iphone)dont meet. I got ipod touch and Nokia's E90 and they sit happily on my desk.
Maybe because they are so different people get fired up so easily?

[Pdexter @ Nov 28th 2007 10:22AM]

And this comment does not belong here ^^

[riggs @ Nov 28th 2007 9:19AM]

just cause.

[Christian @ Nov 28th 2007 10:08AM]

Touchy Touchy (I couldn't resist)!

This is a battle Apple would ultimately loose, because we all know their patent request won't likely hold up after thorough scrutiny considering touchscreen devices have been around for so long, and ultimately both companies are going to end up paying some other patent holder. If apple decided to take action it would likely be more geared towards keeping the S60 and a couple of other competing devices out of the market until the 3G iPhone hits the market creating a level playing field to compete with the S60. Let's not forget that M$ is rolling out their new touch interface next year also along with Googles Touch api that was mentioned for Android. Nokia is all about making affordable phones and while the S60 will come at a premium, it isn't hard to imagine that the Apple method of spoon feeding iPhone features will come to an immediate end once you've got 3 competitors offering the same touch interface with 10 times the added features in devices that look as good and in some cases (S60) better than the iPhone. Apple needs time to set up a world wide launch for the 3G iPhone in the 4th Quarter of 2008. The last thing they want to see is a well known company with an established user base get their hands on a device that undercuts the iPhone's price while offering more features all while looking even more stylish. Today Apple sells the iPhone as a status device, but it's hard to sell image when there's a prettier and easier to acquire girl sitting in the same room.

[Karl Viklund @ Nov 28th 2007 10:17AM]

Apple should protect their patents.

[naio @ Nov 28th 2007 8:47PM]

Crapple is a shitty company.

[Constable Odo @ Nov 28th 2007 11:18AM]

What's the big deal even if Nokia had invented the touch interface. Just because it's the first, it don't mean it's the best. A caveman might have invented the wheel, but it darn sure wasn't a Goodyear racing tire. So, whatever company put out a touchscreen first, Apple's touchscreen is probably better and will probably sell more touchscreen devices than any other handset maker. All companies most likely step on other companies' patents. When the dust settles we'll see who's on top.

[D @ Nov 28th 2007 11:37AM]

Nah dont think so Nokia has sold its N95 1 million) only in uk(and of course way more globally) and if Nokia makes okish TS with good price it will probally sell way more than iphone just because it's Nokia.

Aye it dosent matter who have invented TS and iphone might not be the best phone out there, but it has the best TS for sure.

[balabok @ Nov 29th 2007 6:42AM]

@Constable Odo> You are obviously walking in the funk of the reality distortion field.

[aalqadaffi @ Nov 28th 2007 12:35PM]

Nokia pwns all.

[PB @ Nov 28th 2007 11:52AM]

Umm Hi. How about everyone stop suing each other over touchscreen patents, names, etc.???? It's an amazing concept; who really cares who developed it first. Maybe these companies should join together, bounce ideas around, and come out with a truly kick-ass product?

[Ireland @ Nov 28th 2007 1:38PM]

Keep dreaming.

[helio9000 @ Nov 28th 2007 12:00PM]

First of all the 200 patents thing was always a bit of a joke. For instance, the squeeze and pinch interaction has been around in multitiouch almost as long as apple the company has existed. However, some of their patents are probably quite solid since they come from not stuff Apple developed so much as purchased when the swiped up Fingerworks.

What I don't get about any of it though is that from everything I've read the company that makes the iPhone touchscreen is the one holding the cards and patent-wise a lot of the heardware tech actually comes from them. In fact, according to this article they are the only company in the world that can make the iPhone touchscreen. And guess what - Nokia is their other major customer!

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_16/b4030061.htm?campaign_id=yhoo