Tase me, baby: Taser responds to the UN, says tasers aren't torture
By Nilay Patel 
posted Nov 29th 2007 8:19AM
posted Nov 29th 2007 8:19AM
Looks like the Taser parties are back on -- Taser issued a terse rebuttal to the UN today, finding fault with its conclusion that being hit with a taser is equivalent to torture. Saying that the committee is "out of touch with the reality that confronts law enforcement officers every day worldwide," Taser also noted that the criteria used to define torture, "extreme pain," also rules out other common police implements like pepper spray and batons. Like some other reports we've seen, Taser says that since their products don't actually electrocute people, the main danger involved in being struck with a taser is an "unassisted fall," which seems to us like pretty much the only kind of fall there is -- but we're not getting in the middle of this one. Looks like this is going to be a long fight -- everybody got their popcorn?
My sister pisses me off too much; would this work?[/sarcasm]
I suggest that while there is debate on this issue that we cease using tasers and switch to something that we're sure is NOT torture.
Waterboarding.
Tasers are also great sex toys...
I mean self defense mechanisms.
Tasers arn't torture?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7116917.stm
"Tasers arn't torture?"
No. They aren't.
Tasers can be USED to torture by torturers. But so can water, and sand, and bamboo, and car batteries, and wire cutters, and syringes. Calling all taser-owners torturers is as ignorant and idiotic as calling all gun-owners murderers, though I guess I shouldn't expect much more from the UN.
Gee, this is a no-brainer here... get shot by a real gun and need some type of surgery or get tazed and wake up in the back of the cruiser. Too bad gang-bangers don't use these devices instead of guns, that way there'd be less kids lying dead in the streets regardless of what country you live in.
Police need some type of weapon to fight crime with, a taser isn't any more of a torture device than a screwdriver. It's simply a humane method of bringing down someone who deserves it without actually wounding them with a bullet or nightstick. Maybe they need to take out the people complaining about Tasers and give them the option of bullet or taser? That would solve the discussion then and there.
Tasers surely beat the alternative; a bullet in the head.
Taser > .45 Cal
@Josh L
"Tasers can be USED to torture by torturers. But so can water, and sand, and bamboo, and car batteries, and wire cutters, and syringes."
The problem with your analogy is that a Taser is designed for inflicting pain. It has no other uses. I don't disagree with your view point, I just think you analogy is flawed.
@wjousts: actually, tasers are not DESIGNED to inflict pain. they are designed to immobilize someone by taking away their motor skills via an electric shock. the pain is just a by-product.
@wjousts
"The problem with your analogy is that a Taser is designed for inflicting pain. It has no other uses. I don't disagree with your view point, I just think you analogy is flawed."
Are you serious? Do you honestly believe that the Taser is a weapon meant to harm people? The Taser is a device that is designed to disrupt muscle control in order to subdue a target. If you wanted to inflict pain, wouldn't you use something cheaper and more... painful, like a baton?
if we all had professional and honorable police officers there wouldn't be a problem, when you've got trigger happy thugs using them things get serious.
@shmengie: Okay, maybe designed isn't the right way to put it, but they inflict a lot of pain as part of their normal operation, which the others do not.
@Colorado: "Do you honestly believe that the Taser is a weapon meant to harm people?"
Did I say that? No I didn't. Inflicting pain and harming somebody are not the same thing. And for the record, most forms of torture are focused on causing pain, not necessarily harm. Because if you cause no lasting damage it's harder for the tortured to prove that it ever happened.
I think that wjousts is exactly right (i.e.: the analogy he commented on is somewhat flawed -- though I also agree with the intent of the original comment).
Anyway, @boing: you bring up what is essentially my view on the issue. They're great as another (usually) non-lethal tool to use for law enforcement, but I think that their overuse by cops who now have a cool toy to "take fools down" is becoming a problem.
Like the old Polish guy. I wasn't there, but it seems to me that there's no way that multiple relatively healthy, relatively young cops could have had so much of a problem subduing him that they absolutely needed to taser him.
I feel that the tensions are heightened because it's a relatively new thing for tasers' use to be so widespread. After a few years, it'll probably get better. Law enforcement agencies will get more used to them and implement stricter policies on when they can be used; the public will get used to them and won't get all sensationalist when seeing them used on people that actually need to be subdued in that fashion.
Psst engadget I think your RSS feed's broken...top story's showing up as "Optimus Maximus in minimus sub-$1000 configurations".
never mind...guess it was a temporary glitch with firefox or something...
I'm not sure how that article equates Tasers with torture.
I don't care what those guys at TASER say. I bet their ass wont like it if somebody taser them!
Which is probably why they don't break laws.
like that polish dude at the airport?
the cops took their sweet time to assess the situation (almost 45 seconds ;) )
I'm pretty sure that some of Taser's employees have been shocked by their own product. Based on many videos on the internet, there are many displays of volunteers trying them out. I don't doubt some employees have been tased so I would think twice about that statement.
I would gladly take an electric jolt from a taser than a 9mm hollow-point.
I didn't realize that you had to break a law to get taser?
Hold on a minuet... what law did Andrew Meyer break... oh yea... he broke the law that states "don't ask the police to taser you if you are doing nothing wrong except speaking your opinion at a University lecture hall."
actually, he was creating a public disturbance, and the cops were functioning as basically security guards and getting him out when he was screaming like an idiot child. And yes, when you do not comply with a reasonable order from a police officer, that IS breaking the law.
@John, they were not following their procedure; there is no way they should have Tasered him so quickly. Investigations are under way, but they have admitted as much, and it's obvious from the video.
*ahem* mi mi mi miiiiiiii
DONT TASE ME BRO!!!
thank you. *bows*
give me your address so i can taze you
I wonder what weapons the body guards of UN folks cary? Guns? Tasers?
nukes?
Anybody have any stats of injury/death from police force that does not involve tazers? Just from the stories I've heard from a friend who works as a guard at the county jail (and is not allowed to use a taser), it is not uncommon for an imate to get serverly injured or even die from guards having to use brute force.
I believe Tasers themselves aren't torture devices.
They become torture devices when the piece of crap who uses them starts deriving pleasure by tazing over and over. You've seen the videos of some moron cop tazing a person over and over. thats torture.
100% Agree.
Tasers are a better solution than projectile weapons that kill more likely.
But the problem is, that you will fire rather with a taser than with a gun. You will still think twice before using a fireweapon, but with a teaser you propably wont.
There should be an institution that checks if the use was acceptable or not, and if not the cop should be fired or teasered ^^.
Have a nice day.
No, it's an inexperienced police officer expecting a different result from what they're seeing. They were trained to expect a compliant suspect after getting tased, but the reality is a lot of people just keep on going. So they get tased again. What we need is better training for law enforcement, and braver men and women who are willing to talk to or wrestle the suspect before breaking out the taser.
Ok, so "extreme pain" is what makes it a torture device. So, what, are we gonna arm the police with happy loving puppies, complimentary beer for criminals, and super models with which to deploy blow-jobs?
Yeah, that'll stop crime...
ummm Will, Can you tell me what crime gets me the last punishment?
Just curious that's all.
:)
You're right. It'd be a really bad idea to give an outraged, out of control person a glass of water and some understanding words. Better Tase 'em, because it's so much better than shooting them.
@huh
huh?
teasers are not torture? So I will have one on my pocket just in case hehe
http://www.spymac.com/details/?2309609
Ok, no more tasers, we will just have cops go back to shooting everything that moves. People have to find a way to fucking complain about anything and everything.
I suppose that cops could just start shooting or beating everyone instead of trying to subdue them. Say you're in a busy (insert location) and the cop(s) are trying to restrain someone near you. Would you:
1. Have them open fire while you are close, taking a chance of killing/wounding you?
2. Using pepper spray, in which case might get you if you happen to be too close?
3. Use a device that looks like it hurts like hell, but only affects the target?
- of course the cops can miss with the taser, but the chances of you dying from a bullet are better than dying from a taser.
People have no idea what it's like to put your life second to the public. This is something a police officer does, or is suppose to. They are here to protect us. Sure, some of them are bastards and do dastardly things BUT not all of them.
You never know when someone might have a weapon, so you have to act accordingly. People need to get over their frail sensibilities and realize that if you're going to refuse to listen to police, you bet your a$$ you're going to be in trouble.
You're missing the point - Police officers are not required to sacrifice themselves for the public. They are around to maintain order, but their number one priority is (and should always be) staying alive and relatively safe. If a criminal comes towards a cop with a knife, it's not the cop's responsibility to try to grapple with the criminal to take the knife away, it's his duty to stop the criminal. Previously, the officer's only choice was to put a bullet in the person, now they can use a Taser, which will most likely not kill the person.
Police must have a way to incapacitate a dangerous individual - seems to me that a taser is a much safer (to everyone involved) way to do that than a gun. If UN has better alternatives they should let us know otherwise get back to being incompetent.
As others have pointed out, a cop is often more likely to use the Taser than to try and use more rational means, like talking (in the Vancouver airport case, they had multiply Tased the man within 30 seconds of arriving, and he wasn't even resisting. Watch the video, and imagine how many times this happens without video).
I have full respect for police (the decent ones), but the fact is television exaggerates their job. There are many police officers, and in reality they very, very rarely draw their gun. Policing is not even on the top ten of most dangerous jobs. Social workers face daily dangerous situations they have to defuse, probably more often than police.
Maybe it's time to bring back swords and spears. It would be in keeping with the general de-evolution of our species.
Tasering puts the possibility of harm on the guy causing that possibility. If cops have to fight a guy down he could hurt them or people around. If they tase he hopefully just drops.
Yes, they shouldn't be overused. However, many jurisdictions require cops to go through a taser training which includes being tased. I fully support that. Cops then know exactly what they're doing because it's been done to them.
taking down an unarmed guy with a taser should only be ok when he threatens other people BUT NOT THE COPS ! - they have been trained, they should be skilled, its their job, and besides .. if the suspect injures an officer / resists arrest there allready is a punishment for that.
Taser itself tells that is X26 is a danger when is stated : "the main danger involved in being struck with a taser is an unassisted fall..." to add to the 50 kV shock !
Taser refered to DST Lab to find pro arguments, but Taser ignored another DST Lab's report at
http://www.dstl.gov.uk/science_spot/shoot_to_stun.php
stating the opposite : We need to determine "The accuracy or discrimination of the weapons and their risk of affecting the two most vulnerable parts of the body, the skull and the chest – and especially the brain and heart.[...] In the case of tasers it was clear that, despite many years’ use in the USA, their effects were not really understood".
Here are the common alternitives that police have when dealing with someone that can't se subdued by hands alone:
Baton
OC spray
TASER
gun
If I were on the receiving end of said force, I would be saying "Taze me, bro!" Is it pleasant? Nope, I've done it. But after a 5 second burst, the pain is gone...this is not so with the other options. This is actually the real issue with a TASER, a police officer has to be trained to secure the aggressor while the initial burst is being applied. If they don't, the persons recovers, and continues to resist. This is what happens in the videos you see where someone receives multiple bursts, there is no reason that they couldn't have been cuffed during the inital burst, in most cases. If you don't touch the subject between the probes, you won't get shocked, so cuffing is relatively easy (most of the time...some people go as stiff as a board). Regardless, people have died after being on the receiving end of all the above options. All of the above options can be misused as a torture device. None of the above options are perfect. It would be a shame to eliminate the one device that has the potential to eliminate the others. As the one technological device on the list you can assume that if will follow Moore's Law and continue to improve, becoming more versitile, more efficient, and of course safer. I'm no Ray Kurzweil, but I think one day soon we will be looking back at the archaic time when cops had to hit people with sticks and spray chemicals in their face as the real barbarism, and the TASERs will be the humanitarians weapon of choice.
Yes, we've seen some devices on this very site where entire crowds can be immobilized. But it's just as likely to be a dystopian future, where no one can complain, everyone has to be the same, and nothing can change.
I think the UN is more concerned with Tasers potentiality as a torture device.
I do not think cops would use a gun and shoot bullets as a means of torture, while somebody could be tasered repeatedly as means of torture.
Also unlike guns, tasers could be used by cops more indiscriminately.
Of course you could always TRAIN THE POLICE PROPERLY. No, stupid of me, that would cost money.
How about reducing the threat to the police? How stupid of me, that would involve gun control and the Americans must be able to defend themselves against the redcoats.
Our Police (in the UK) are mainly unarmed and the number of fatalities at the hands of the UK police is a tiny fraction of the US record. Why? Many reasons, the 1st being the fact that very few people own firearms, secondly the police are trained to incapacitate people without resorting to (potentially) deadly force. but mainly you must have "policing by consent" if the populace feel the police are not out to help them (look at France now) then everybody suffers. Currently it looks like some American police are totally off the rails.
Hmm..
UK population as of 2005 = 60 million
UK land area = 94,526 sq. mi.
US population as of 2006 = 300 million
US land area = 3.79 million sq. mi.
"Our Police (in the UK) are mainly unarmed and the number of fatalities at the hands of the UK police is a tiny fraction of the US record."
Well DUH!
Dimplemonkey
60/300 = 1/5 = Far more than "a tiny fraction" - DUH!
the number of police killings in the US is far far more than 5 times the number in the UK.
Perhaps I should have expressly stated "per capita"
"the main danger involved in being struck with a taser is an "unassisted fall,"
I would take that over being tackled.
Tasers are for one thing... That mentally disturbed guy who has a knife and the cops don't want to kill him.
They are an invaluable tool in these types of standoff situations.
10 years ago, a mentally ill lady went into a shopping center, near where I live, wielding a knife and threatening to hurt herself and others. Police responded and tried to talk to her but they ended up having to kill her. Today, the use of a taser would give her a chance to live.
Unfortunately, they are being used as compliance devices. "Get on the ground or I will Tase you (bro)" and consequently lazy, scared, or pissed off cops will use them unnecessarily.
The latest incident in Utah is a great example of the way a taser can be misused. The cop was pissed off that he was being hassled by a young punk and instead of being a professional, he escalated the situation and used the taser.
Pepper sprays and billy clubs only smart a little when used by kinder and gentler police. Let them be in charge of the tasers.
Any device (taser) that uses the same technology of devices that are used to control livestock, such as cattle (cattle prod), are acceptable in my book.
Next up - whipping, roping, and branding!!!
"Taser says that since their products don't actually electrocute people, the main danger involved in being struck with a taser is an "unassisted fall," which seems to us like pretty much the only kind of fall there is"
Clearly, Engadget havent heard of Epic Fall
tasers are fun...dont tase me bro!!!!
I think we can all agree that when they are used properly, in other words to apply force that is not lethal in a situation where an officer or other security agent would typically be authorized and use lethal force, they are a good alternative. When they are used just because an officer doesn't want to attemp to physically restrain someone there is a problem... and thank you FSU or where ever Kerry was for 'Don't Tase Me Bro!' I think we should all agree he had that coming.
Thank you so much. That's exactly how I feel about it. Like 100% exact.
A great podcast www.2guys1brain.com is a couple of jailers that often discuss the use of the taser in the workplace. The only people get tased are the new inmates that have never seen one in action. All the current inmates that have seen one in use get a verbal warning and see the laser-sight and freeze in their tracks. http://2guys1brain.com/audio.php
This really has to stop. The Taser is a scapegoat, and the media is managing to do this completely successfully, clouding many layers of stupidity that do not deserve to exist, and which have no reason I can see to be concealed. I smell a pointless conspiracy of buearocratic thinking.
I don't know how hard this is to see, but it was clearly not the Taser that killed Robert Dziekanski, but the incompetent idiots dogpiling on him while he was subdued. You cannot sit on a person's neck while he is in that state! (What the hell purpose would that have anyway?! Scare him more? Scare him into not being scared?)
Those officers used a taser where they previously would have firmly confronted and handcuffed him, likely with very little, if any, struggle. He was reasonably cooperative until they drew the frighteningly gun-shaped weapon. To somebody in a situation such as Dziekanski's, that would be posed as an imminent threat, and it is completely understandable that he would panic. (Even moreso after being "shot").
The only people at fault here are the massive organizations who purchase Tasers, do not know how to use them in the first place, do not attempt to learn how to use them and hand them out like candy to officers in desperate need of very long vacations.
yep.
i suppose that most people would rather have a gun shot to the chest?
The taser is not a substitute for a gun. If an officer really believes a gun is needed and he has both a gun and a taser on him, he's going to use the gun.
A taser used in correct circumstances is a valid police tool. There should be no argument there.
If an officer is angry at someone and chooses to use pepper spray, a baton, or the taser because they think they can get away with it and inflict a bit of pain, that is abuse and may rise to the label "torture".
Do tasers leave marks like pepper spray or a baton? If someone reluctantly cooperates with an officer and the officer beats them up with a baton I would imagine the legal case of abuse-of-power would be easier to prove than if they used a taser. If that's true, then there is a higher mental barrier for an officer to use pepper spray or a baton than use a taser to inflict pain and frighten someone that has angered them.
Tasers suck... the police should just use bigger bullets to rid us of these criminals permanently.
Tasers < Tesla Coils
The true problem arising from tasers is that they are being used to immobilize just about anybody a police officer deems as should be immobilized.
That Polish man at the Canadian airport probably had his heart muscles immobilized too.
TASERS SHOULD ONLY BE USED IN LIFE THREATENING SITUATIONS AND NOT FOR CONVENIENCE.
you all seem to be missing the point, at least when it comes to cops. Guns have consequences. If miss used, said cop goes to jail. Even if the shooting was justified, there is always a review of the shooting. Tazers lower the threshold because they are viewed as "safe" alternatives in moderate stress scenarios. When that rare situation comes up, where the "bad guy" had an under lying heart condition, the result is the same as a gun. While the Utah driver was a jerk, and I would have Tazered him myself, there was no reason to actually use the Tazer. One of many reasons I am not a cop.
I'd like an estimate of how many criminals there would be if we took all the money spent on tasers, guns, and other ways to 'control' the populace, including police officer salaries and instead started considering it public wealth. Whether tasers are torture or not doesn't really concern me. What concerns me is that almost none of the money this country spends on law enforcement is being spent in the best possible way. I'd imagine just the DEA's funding would be enough to pay the drug dealers in this country a decent wage that would keep them from being drug dealers. The government was never meant to control so large a percentage of its people.
Tasers rule. All I can say is:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr9V1Cy-aqI
Best outright tasing of all time.
Pepper spray doesn't cause pain-- it causes discomfort up the wazoo. I guess you could say it stings, but it's not the same as being tased over and over.
Batons do cause pain, and as such should be used only when force is required. Most cops know this.
The problem with Tasers is that cops aren't always trained properly in the use of them, and are often of the mind that they can use them liberally because they're "non-fatal." It's this liberal usage that makes the Taser step from "non-lethal means of apprehension" to torture.
Tase me once, shame on me. Tase me twice (or more) shame on you.
I guess according to "Taser" using a cattle prod on a human would be OK too. This smacks of nazi style treatment of people practiced in the the late 30's & 40's. What's next?
I believe the Taser referred to (the x34?) has a camera that records whatever is shot, as well as leaving a cloud of confetti with the Tasers serial number. So there is actually a lot more evidence of a Tasering than a gunshot.
OTOH, I have seen a cop threaten to Taser a man who was having a diabetic seizure. Luckily, the rest of the bystanders and the paramedics turned on the asshole cop, and he didn't follow through.
Tasers don't tase people, cops do. So address the training of the cops. BTW, for the poster above, many police departments require an officer be tased before being certified to carry one.
The tasers should be colored white so they stand out against the black perpitrator
So now CNN reports that an Ohio officer tasered a pregnant woman in the neck...
Put aside whether the taser itself is a torture device or not.
The f'ing facts are that some officers are clearly not mentally competent to wield these devices responsibly.
In order to avoid the GREAT risk that some will abuse these devices, we need to recall ALL the tasers from ALL officers.
It's that simple.
You are 12 years old, you can't buy an alcoholic drink.
You are a cop who is supposed to serve and protect? No taser for you.
You can't train these retards so no need to bother.
If you get a boo boo in trying to subdue someone with your hands, get over it Sally, be a man, suck it up.
my 2 cents.
Well, for what it's worth in the Utah case it was a speed trap, so the driver was probably just totally confused why he was getting pulled over.
That said, when pulled over I usually behave. Or at least keep my hands far away from my pockets, lol.
The problem is that there do not seem to be any defined rules of engagement when it comes to using tasers. Looking at most UN and even Marine ROE's, the person must pose an imminent threat before Active response can be initiated. Nowadays it seems that whenever a cop doesn't understand what you are saying or does agree with what you are saying he has the right to shoot you with a taser. Moreover, rent-a-cops who graduate from fake cop schools should never be allowed to use tasers as the lack of education coupled with power trip issues could never lead to anything positive.
Of course Tasers are not torture. They are made by a US corporation and the US has its very own definition of torture. It's not something any American would do, especially if employed by the government.
What I find "funny" about the post is that is states it does not "actually" electrocute people. If the person died from the taser, then by definition they were electrocuted.
I personally would rather be "tortured" by a taser any day then hit with those batons or even tackled and hit to the ground by the police. Tasers don't scare me me. I was with hit with more voltage by a taser before, and although I almost lost bowel control, I found it almost as funny as my mother..... who supplied the voltage.
I think that since it is stated by the company, and perceived by many to be non-lethal, law enforcement agencies are using it a bit too liberally.
The real underlying question here that is causing these arguments is whether or not tasers are causing death. A lot more research has to be done to determine that, but it may be moot either way.
Even if they are causing death in 1% of 1% of the people tasered every day I would find that a preferable solution to a handgun which I would imagine has a much higher fatality rate.
So although it may not be a 100% non-lethal solution for law enforcement, it certainly is far better than anything else at the moment.
Hmm, I am breaking the law and resisting arrest. Not only resisting arrest but causing a threat to officers arresting me. Please, don't torture me with a taser...I want to be shot! That 45 will do just fine...
As far as the UN being out of touch with reality...who knew!?
Well at least you put 'ignorant' in your name, truth in advertising.
Don't be so silly everyone. The U.S. government defines torture as anything that causes organ failure. And considering the U.S. government is right...about everything, there is really no need for any discussion at all. It's actually a funny story. When outlawing torture in the middle east came around after Abu-Grahb or however you spell it, congress passed something trying to get rid of any torture at all. Bush was all for it. OH WAIT, except there was a signing statement on the side that said, of course I'm translating into comprehendable english, yeah sure. but I'm not actually going to follow the law. Ask Cheney and his absolutely obnoxious lawyer. or just watch frontline.
I think it's pretty easy to not die from a Taser:
Just don't get into a situation where the cop has to even consider tasing you and you'll be fine.
Yeah, getting tazed is torture, but shooting someone is just fine and dandy...
It's simple, taser are torture when in the hands of sadistic authoritarian figures and used to inflict pain, so yeah if cops have them they are torture.