"In theory, at least, a consumer could install a copy of Windows Vista without a product key, refuse to activate the system for 30 days, and then purchase a perfectly legal license at a discount using Microsoft’s online offer."
If anyone's used a crippled copy of windows, you'll know how awesome a job M$ did at protecting their interests. The computer's nearly unusable.
At first it pissed me off. I was working for a client who paid full price to a guy who assured him the copies of XP were legal. Now he had an office-full of machines that barely connected to the internet, and who couldn't access the domain.
Should he have known better? Probably. But the bulletproof part of the whole thing was that when you install WGA, you DO agree to the terms and conditons . . .
There was a lawsuit about this, wasn't there? If they're citing "customer feedback", then they must've won the suit.
Stealing is stealing. A lot of work goes into making a song, a lot of work goes into making an OS. You steal music, you're a thief. You steal an OS, you're a thief. It's the same thing.
It kinda is. DRM crippling an OS is just as bad as buying your music and not being able to use it on another brand player.
I havent bought or installed Vista just because a few of my friends had problems with WGA bothering them every time they messed with their machine.
New stick of RAM, WGA. New video card, WGA.
I know alot of that has been fixed, but the assurance that its disabled for SP1 really shows me that Im doing the right thing waiting for SP1 before I buy it. It will be alot more stable and will work alot better.
Heck, I wouldnt have gotten XP pre-SP1 if it wasnt for ME being so unstable, but in this case, I have XP, and Im fine. I can wait till they work all the bugs out or even for the next gen of Windows operating system.
Hold on.. it's MICROSOFT'S fault that your client bought copies of XP from someone and they turned out to be illegal? It's Microsoft's fault for not letting you use software you didn't pay THEM for - just because you paid someone else for it?
Your client was robbed by a pirate. Put the blame where it belongs.
I was pissed at how crippled the computers were, but I quickly understood MS's point of view. And I actually think it was a good thing. It did it's job. The guy went out and bought new copies of XP for all the computers.
I think the move of backing down is silly. The WGA thing was working. I'm running WGA on my computer, and I have no problems because it's not a pirated version of the OS.
Stealing an OS is not the same as stealing music. Huge, huge amounts of money are poured into R&D for an operating system. Selling an operating system is also the only way that MS makes money on it - there's no concert tours for Windows. Stealing music is wrong, yes, but then you have situations like where Trent Reznor's out there telling his fans to fuck the label and steal all they can. The software and music industries have completely different models, so any analogy you draw between them will be inherently flawed.
I am a law-abiding person who's been hobbled by MS's defective protection system (WGA) more than once. I agree that Microsoft has every right (and even a responsibility) to protect their interests. Theoretically that protects me, the well-healed consumer, who actually purchased their products. The problem is that their method (WGA) backfired. The point they concede isn't to encourage piracy (which this may do) but that MS has no right whatever to erroneously disable even a SINGLE LEGITIMATE SYSTEM. So if you feel your interests are being violated, perhaps you would prefer a nice WGA failure--trust me, you wouldn't!
I'm a computer engineer and my only recourse was to turn to the dark side to find (an illegit) workaround. Thus WGA's fault resulted in a loyal and legitimate user (me) exploring the universe of technical impropriety to regain critical functionality--and get on with my WORK! Curiously the problem later went away; I assume it had to do with Windows' automatic updates.
Now exploring a REAL solution...MS could PERMANENTLY safeguard their software by selling their OSs as proprietary HARDWARE solutions including matched processors, a pre-installed OS kernel (as static FIRMWARE on encrypted ROM and a matched ROM to hold the encryption key), multiple EEPROMs (at least one each for the 1) latest SP and 2) static system configuration data) and RAM for more dynamic system configuration information like GUI modifications. They might even explore a coprocessor to manage all their fun stuff! I've heard the complaints about a ROM resident system. Yes, the config EEPROM would need to be flashed to be updated--but the upside outweighs the inconveniences--instant-on systems, very low virus susceptabilities, VASTLY improved stability, etc.!
It would be possible to have such a system reflash the config EEPROM from a bank of "exception (config) RAM," but only 1) as a physically switched option (turn a key, flip a dip switch, whatever), and 2) as a function that would only run after a lengthy virus analysis of proposed updates. This would avoid the VAST MAJORITY of viral uptakes by systems. Such reflashing represents the only time viruses could "infect" OSs sufficient to disable them!
All of this hardware & firmware would EXPRESSLY service the OS and should be PART OF THE MOTHER BOARD! User resources would either live in another area on the mother board or on one or more daughter cards. This way installed USER RESOURCES would remain available to the user--forever! Such a solution would mean a significant redesign of the PC. But imagine, a nearly-instant-on machine that should work as well the 1000th time you power it up as it did the first time it powered up perfectly.
For now, everyone knows that Windows (whether it's 1, 2, 3.x, 95, CE, ME, 98, NT, 2000, XP, Vista in the home, pro, server flavors with 32 or 64 bits) represent a massive (and bloated) work-in-progress. Come on Microsoft, streamline it, convert it to hardware. Also, consider undoing all that WASTEFUL system integration that places HUGE resource demands on the systems of users who don't need/want/understand your various bells and whistles. Instead, make those bells and whistles (like the Pro and Server functions) optional HARDWARE accesories! If approached the right way, you will have ONE perfect primary system (at this point that MUST be a 64-bit OS) on EVERY new motherboard. Then rapidly reconfigurable hardware would add (or subtract!) functionality ALONG WITH THE NECESSARY OVERHEAD to support it...every time!
If MS won't solve this, we'll see ever more customers fleeing to something that lets them get their work done, like LINUX! For now, removing WGA's kill switch is a move in the right direction. Way to go MS!
1) I don't have a computer science degree but I do know 1 thing: the hackers will hack it anyways. It's some computer security rule, that no matter how well you secure your network/software, there will be some way to hack it.
2) Nobody is going to buy pieces of hardware that come with an OS, because then those of us who are DIY system builders will end up with about 20 copies of the OS that we don't need, or, it will limit our choices for computer hardware in our builds and that is completely unacceptable.
1+2b) Apple has been doing this for years with OS X by requiring any and all installs of OS X to see a TPM (Trusted Platform Module) that was fused to the mobo (that only Apple manufactures) to make sure that OS X is only installed on machines that Apple has made. Guess what? That's been hacked - people can run OS X on laptops that have similar specs to Macs but are instead made by, say, Sony: the Sony UX.
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"In theory, at least, a consumer could install a copy of Windows Vista without a product key, refuse to activate the system for 30 days, and then purchase a perfectly legal license at a discount using Microsoft’s online offer."
Who said crime doesn't pay?
I know. I'm somewhat baffled by this.
If anyone's used a crippled copy of windows, you'll know how awesome a job M$ did at protecting their interests. The computer's nearly unusable.
At first it pissed me off. I was working for a client who paid full price to a guy who assured him the copies of XP were legal. Now he had an office-full of machines that barely connected to the internet, and who couldn't access the domain.
Should he have known better? Probably. But the bulletproof part of the whole thing was that when you install WGA, you DO agree to the terms and conditons . . .
There was a lawsuit about this, wasn't there? If they're citing "customer feedback", then they must've won the suit.
So I wonder why they're backing down.
@ Ryan
Love the cleverness of using a '$' instead of an 'S'. Your originality amazes even me.
/sarcasm
Here, here.
I've done the right thing and gone out to buy a legal product and to see someone get away with pirating a copy is pretty disheartening.
I don't it's the same as music with its DRM - this is an OS.
@ Nubaeus:
Why would you say something like that? You're an idiot.
@ shaliron:
Stealing is stealing. A lot of work goes into making a song, a lot of work goes into making an OS. You steal music, you're a thief. You steal an OS, you're a thief. It's the same thing.
It's not stealing. It's copyright infringement.
Cite one case where someone has been convicted, or even charged with theft.
@Nubaeus
would you prefer the name a lot of us love to hate:
Microsoft(R)
@shaliron
It kinda is. DRM crippling an OS is just as bad as buying your music and not being able to use it on another brand player.
I havent bought or installed Vista just because a few of my friends had problems with WGA bothering them every time they messed with their machine.
New stick of RAM, WGA. New video card, WGA.
I know alot of that has been fixed, but the assurance that its disabled for SP1 really shows me that Im doing the right thing waiting for SP1 before I buy it. It will be alot more stable and will work alot better.
Heck, I wouldnt have gotten XP pre-SP1 if it wasnt for ME being so unstable, but in this case, I have XP, and Im fine. I can wait till they work all the bugs out or even for the next gen of Windows operating system.
M$!!! WHOAW EDGY!
seriously, it was lame the first time, and its lame now.
@Ryan
Hold on.. it's MICROSOFT'S fault that your client bought copies of XP from someone and they turned out to be illegal? It's Microsoft's fault for not letting you use software you didn't pay THEM for - just because you paid someone else for it?
Your client was robbed by a pirate. Put the blame where it belongs.
@ Jeff, I never said it was MS's fault.
I was pissed at how crippled the computers were, but I quickly understood MS's point of view. And I actually think it was a good thing. It did it's job. The guy went out and bought new copies of XP for all the computers.
I think the move of backing down is silly. The WGA thing was working. I'm running WGA on my computer, and I have no problems because it's not a pirated version of the OS.
Stealing an OS is not the same as stealing music. Huge, huge amounts of money are poured into R&D for an operating system. Selling an operating system is also the only way that MS makes money on it - there's no concert tours for Windows. Stealing music is wrong, yes, but then you have situations like where Trent Reznor's out there telling his fans to fuck the label and steal all they can. The software and music industries have completely different models, so any analogy you draw between them will be inherently flawed.
O ye of limited vision...
I am a law-abiding person who's been hobbled by MS's defective protection system (WGA) more than once. I agree that Microsoft has every right (and even a responsibility) to protect their interests. Theoretically that protects me, the well-healed consumer, who actually purchased their products. The problem is that their method (WGA) backfired. The point they concede isn't to encourage piracy (which this may do) but that MS has no right whatever to erroneously disable even a SINGLE LEGITIMATE SYSTEM. So if you feel your interests are being violated, perhaps you would prefer a nice WGA failure--trust me, you wouldn't!
I'm a computer engineer and my only recourse was to turn to the dark side to find (an illegit) workaround. Thus WGA's fault resulted in a loyal and legitimate user (me) exploring the universe of technical impropriety to regain critical functionality--and get on with my WORK! Curiously the problem later went away; I assume it had to do with Windows' automatic updates.
Now exploring a REAL solution...MS could PERMANENTLY safeguard their software by selling their OSs as proprietary HARDWARE solutions including matched processors, a pre-installed OS kernel (as static FIRMWARE on encrypted ROM and a matched ROM to hold the encryption key), multiple EEPROMs (at least one each for the 1) latest SP and 2) static system configuration data) and RAM for more dynamic system configuration information like GUI modifications. They might even explore a coprocessor to manage all their fun stuff! I've heard the complaints about a ROM resident system. Yes, the config EEPROM would need to be flashed to be updated--but the upside outweighs the inconveniences--instant-on systems, very low virus susceptabilities, VASTLY improved stability, etc.!
It would be possible to have such a system reflash the config EEPROM from a bank of "exception (config) RAM," but only 1) as a physically switched option (turn a key, flip a dip switch, whatever), and 2) as a function that would only run after a lengthy virus analysis of proposed updates. This would avoid the VAST MAJORITY of viral uptakes by systems. Such reflashing represents the only time viruses could "infect" OSs sufficient to disable them!
All of this hardware & firmware would EXPRESSLY service the OS and should be PART OF THE MOTHER BOARD! User resources would either live in another area on the mother board or on one or more daughter cards. This way installed USER RESOURCES would remain available to the user--forever! Such a solution would mean a significant redesign of the PC. But imagine, a nearly-instant-on machine that should work as well the 1000th time you power it up as it did the first time it powered up perfectly.
For now, everyone knows that Windows (whether it's 1, 2, 3.x, 95, CE, ME, 98, NT, 2000, XP, Vista in the home, pro, server flavors with 32 or 64 bits) represent a massive (and bloated) work-in-progress. Come on Microsoft, streamline it, convert it to hardware. Also, consider undoing all that WASTEFUL system integration that places HUGE resource demands on the systems of users who don't need/want/understand your various bells and whistles. Instead, make those bells and whistles (like the Pro and Server functions) optional HARDWARE accesories! If approached the right way, you will have ONE perfect primary system (at this point that MUST be a 64-bit OS) on EVERY new motherboard. Then rapidly reconfigurable hardware would add (or subtract!) functionality ALONG WITH THE NECESSARY OVERHEAD to support it...every time!
If MS won't solve this, we'll see ever more customers fleeing to something that lets them get their work done, like LINUX! For now, removing WGA's kill switch is a move in the right direction. Way to go MS!
@spock:
1) I don't have a computer science degree but I do know 1 thing: the hackers will hack it anyways. It's some computer security rule, that no matter how well you secure your network/software, there will be some way to hack it.
2) Nobody is going to buy pieces of hardware that come with an OS, because then those of us who are DIY system builders will end up with about 20 copies of the OS that we don't need, or, it will limit our choices for computer hardware in our builds and that is completely unacceptable.
1+2b) Apple has been doing this for years with OS X by requiring any and all installs of OS X to see a TPM (Trusted Platform Module) that was fused to the mobo (that only Apple manufactures) to make sure that OS X is only installed on machines that Apple has made. Guess what? That's been hacked - people can run OS X on laptops that have similar specs to Macs but are instead made by, say, Sony: the Sony UX.