Warner's Noonan denies Blu-ray exclusive, which is nice

Freeze gopher! That Warner Brothers rumor which seemingly pre-dates the availability of both Blu-ray and HD DVD gear has returned. A week after Warner was to dirty HD DVDs swimming pool with their exclusive Blu-ray doodie, Jim Noonan (Noonan!), Warner Bros. Senior Vice President and General Manager, returns with this peach of a response, "We have made no decision to change our present policy which is to produce in both HD DVD and Blu-ray." And that's all she wrote.

[Scott G. @ Dec 13th 2007 4:28AM]

Someone please make this "battle" stop! It's going on with no end in sight.

[Dustin Frazier @ Dec 13th 2007 4:31AM]

Well, someday the sun will explode.

[Billy Fiul @ Dec 13th 2007 4:56AM]

There is no need for a war. Why can't they both just get along, with each format occupying 50% of the market? Or maybe HD-DVD occupying 47.7% of the market and Blu 52.2&, based on the number of titles available.

[L @ Dec 13th 2007 5:00AM]

Because supporting multiple formats costs more to produce and thus, more for the customer.

One of that darn formats should just die already. I don't care which, but I want a STANDARD - and pronto!

[pigfister @ Dec 13th 2007 5:23AM]

competition is good but would you want the leading lobbyist for the MPAA (sony) having control over the hardware and software with their continued track record of anti consumer DRM lockin's, payola scandals and global price fixing?

THE MPAA ARE: SONY, UNIVERSAL, WARNER GROUP, DISNEY, PARAMOUNT, FOX.

THE RIAA SOUNDEXCHANGE ARE: SONY, UNIVERSAL, WARNER GROUP, EMI.

[DrXym @ Dec 13th 2007 6:05AM]

Hopefully WB switching over will make it stop.

[Wwhat @ Dec 13th 2007 8:06AM]

Both standards should die and be replaced by something sensible.

[Wwhat @ Dec 13th 2007 8:13AM]

Sony isn't a 'lobbyist' for the MPAA, they are the (one of the 6) employers of the MPAA.
Why can't people get that stuff right?
I quote wikipedia:
The Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA), originally called the Motion Picture Producers and Distributors Association of America, is a cartel based in the United States which was formed to advance the interests of movie studios. Its members consist of the "big six" major Hollywood studios:
Buena Vista Pictures Distribution (The Walt Disney Company)
Sony Pictures
Paramount Pictures (Viacom—which bought DreamWorks in February 2006)
20th Century Fox (News Corporation)
Universal Studios (NBC Universal)
Warner Bros. (Time Warner)

[pigfister @ Dec 13th 2007 12:02PM]

sony is the leading lobbyist for more DRM and is pushing for even more draconian laws to, apparently stop pirating!

i think it has more to do with 1 person 1 licence and the average house can then generate 4x the revenue it currently does.

this can be seen with the psn release of warhawk which is locked to 1 account so all family members have to purchase their own copy to play on their account and then is the second goal, destroy the second hand market because warhawk is none transferable so who actually owns it?

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071002-sony-bmgs-chief-anti-piracy-lawyer-copying-music-you-own-is-stealing.html

via link FTA: "It's my personal belief that Sony BMG is half the size now as it was in 2000," she said, thanks to piracy. In Pariser's view, "when people steal, when they take music without compensation, we are harmed."

Pariser has a very broad definition of "stealing." When questioned by Richard Gabriel, lead counsel for the record labels, Pariser suggested that what millions of music fans do is actually theft. The dirty deed? Ripping your own CDs or downloading songs you already own.

Gabriel asked if it was wrong for consumers to make copies of music which they have purchased, even just one copy. Pariser replied, "When an individual makes a copy of a song for himself, I suppose we can say he stole a song." Making "a copy" of a purchased song is just "a nice way of saying 'steals just one copy'," she said.

[eagles4life @ Dec 13th 2007 4:04PM]

is engadget HD-DVD fanboys? if you look through their other posts their all about HD-DVD winning the war some how.

[Fruition @ Dec 13th 2007 4:40AM]

Ah yes, the format war is alive and well.

[Garst @ Dec 13th 2007 4:49AM]

So, Jim is a girl?

[Lee Richards @ Dec 13th 2007 4:58AM]

It would be foolish of them to make any conflicting statement until the deal (should a deal actually be in the offing) is signed.

[Jeff @ Dec 13th 2007 7:43AM]

Kind of a non-denial. "We have made no decision"... that stands until a decision is officially made. And that could come today for all we know.

My guess is they've made no decision until they announce a decision. Which will come next month at whatever that show is that's coming up.

[Jeebus @ Dec 13th 2007 1:14PM]

Exactly. Sounds like they are fishing for a cash payout from either side.

[Dave @ Dec 13th 2007 8:18AM]

This rumor is as old as dirt. There is another rumor, just as old and just as alive, that Warner is switching to HD DVD. I don't know why that rumor never seems to surface on this site--but there it is. How many times does Warner have to deny exclusivity to one side or another before we can finally put it all to rest?

[andy @ Dec 13th 2007 9:00AM]

Apparently, the correct answer to your rhetorical questions is always:

"Another."

[w @ Dec 13th 2007 10:06AM]

just let americans, japanese or whatever, spend their money and decide who wins.


honestly, i dont think there's much stress in most eu countries about this "format war".


for now i'm fine with my dvd's, thanks.

[The Pepto Pimp @ Dec 13th 2007 10:25AM]

I don't understand how you guys can whine about wanted a standardized format and refusing to buy until this format war is settled.

I'm assuming you are the same people who bought those special HDTVs that ONLY display 1080i and do nothing with 720p?

You guys are ridiculous. I promise you that whatever format "wins" this war, that delivery medium will be obsolete a few years later.

[Jeebus @ Dec 13th 2007 1:17PM]

Not likely. Firstly, it's unlikely to see another 1080 format. The next format will be 2160 or higher, and that won't be for another 20 years.
Then there's download left, and that won't happen either for a variety of reasons. A primary factor (for me) would be that I can't sell the movie if I don't like it. You can already download games, and I hate not being able to sell a bad game.

[primetime4 @ Dec 13th 2007 10:55AM]

When can we get Moesha 2nd season on Blu-Ray?

[Pingmeister @ Dec 13th 2007 11:02AM]

The sad part is that rumors like this really DO make dingbats like me take a "wait and see" attitude.

I have an extensive movie collection and just purchased an HD TV with the hopes of starting an HD movie collection.

Tempted to go HD-DVD just because of my distaste for Sony's incessant attempts to create their own standards.

[R.D. @ Dec 13th 2007 11:41AM]

Don't blame this format war on Sony. It's probably more Microsoft's fault than anyone. They demanded that HDi be the language used to program Blu-ray instead of the open standard Java. They also demanded that Blu-rays were allowed to be copied to PCs. When the Blu-ray members voted against these two demands, the deal to merge the formats fell through and the format war began.

From Wikipedia: "At the end of June 2005, Sun announced that the Blu-ray Association had chosen the Java-based BD-J interactivity layer instead of Microsoft's HDi. This was based on a BDA board vote favouring BD-J 10 to 4".

So, there was a vote 10 to 4. Microsoft lost and started a format war. So, who really is trying to force their own standards?

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_disc

[Jason @ Dec 13th 2007 1:27PM]

Wow. Gotta love looking at things from one side.

Warner and other studios have let slip comments about how hard it is to program for BD-J with a well documented example of MS showing Disney how they could replace 230 lines of BD-J code with about 10 lines of code for HDi.

More DRM and more copy protection are not the answer. Fox held up release of 20+ titles to wait for BD+ and guess what the result was? Many 1st generation players couldn't play the discs at all, and other, compatible players (like the PS3) could sit and choke on a disc for 4-5 minutes before loading it.

You call that a good thing?

All MS cares about is that HDi and VC1 enjoy some success in the video space and that the discs can be backed up for playback through Windows Media Center. And somehow we are supposed to believe that this is all BAD and yet Sony/Disney/Fox with their draconian DRM and inability to get their profile 1.1 players/software ready a year after lunch is GOOD?

Geezus!

HD DVD offers backwards compatibility with DVD, and will soon do this WITHOUT combo discs through the use of triple layer hybrid discs that combine a 4.5GB SD-DVD layer with a DL 30GB on the single side of a disc, so that all of you whiners can have your label art.

When triple layer HD 51GB movies get released that offer the same throughput as BD then what are the BD apologists going to use as their next claim to greatness? The expensive hard coat that MUST be put on a BD because the slightest scratch would destroy the data? Vaporware quad layer 100GB discs that probably won't materialize ever?

Are you really ready to chuck DVD out the window even though it's the most successful media format EVER?

Sony and other CEs are just licking their chops at the thought of convincing millions of consumers that they must replace every DVD device in their lives with a BD device. At least HD DVD has a more realistic approach to this.

I hope Warner sees the improving player marketshare of HD DVD decks (1M to 3M at the end of this year which is up from the 500K to 2.2M earlier this year) and the fact that most BD decks are game consoles and kicks BD overpriced DRM loving ass to the curb.

[stephenbratz2 @ Dec 13th 2007 2:44PM]

Since when has Java been more of a standard than HTML, XML, CSS, SMIL, and JavaScript? HDi is just a combination of these technologies, you know, the technologies that make the web page that you are viewing right now, the standards that your web browser supports?

Microsoft demanding that managed copy be available is bad? What about Disney and Fox demanding regions, is that not bad?

The BDA voted for Java. The DVD Forum voted for HDi. If DVD Forum is evil for not voting for Java, then BDA is evil for refusing to vote for HDi. And what about those 4 groups on BDA that voted against Java?

I think you should stop using Sony, Michael Bay, Blu-Ray.com, etc. as your source of all that is true and right in the world.

[Jake @ Dec 13th 2007 12:39PM]

I'm still certain Warner is going Blu-exclusive in 2008. They had to make a PR statement to ease tension from the HD DVD camp.

[Clayton @ Dec 13th 2007 3:27PM]

The tripple layered "multi-format" discs were given up on. Now Toshiba is pushing for the other tripple layered discs that Jason mentioned. No, that will not make HD DVD any better. It's the bandwidth that's the problem. HD DVD peaks out at 30mbps, Blu-Ray at 50. Yes, that makes a huge difference. No, 51gb discs will not correct it. And yes, chances are you wont be able to play these discs on current HD DVD players even after a firmware upgrade. Unfortunately, that means that HD DVD is just as incomplete as Blu-Ray is. At least with Blu-Ray, you get a working 1080p player that can output 7.1 sound. And no, the PS3 doesn't take 4-5 minutes to load a disc. But my HD-A1 does... Actually the longest I've timed my PS3 is 13 seconds. Quite the difference there.

As for the person that hates Sony for this war, I'd personally be a little bit more pissed off at Toshiba with their fake numbers and lies. Here's some lovely ones I've seen: K-Mart going HD DVD exclusive (which Toshiba should be sued for), Transformers selling 190k, HD DVD having a larger attach rate (how lovely is it that you wont includ the PS3 for standalone sales but you will for attach rates, convient if you ask me).

This format war is stupid and rediculous in my opinion. At first it brought people's attention to these two formats, and also caused lower prices (which, unfortunately, for Toshiba killed any chance of HD DVD being made by anyone other than them). As for the WB rumors. If they actually look at the numbers, they will go with Blu-Ray. That's if they actually want to switch sides. Right now, all of it is wishful thinking by both sides. One side hopes for a cheap, and by cheap I mean low and slimey, payoff from Toshiba or Microsoft to WB, and the other hopes that WB will use common sense. But again, it's all just rumors and hopes at this point. My suggestion is wait and see and don't start spreading FUD and rumors.

[stephenbratz2 @ Dec 13th 2007 4:39PM]

Mind showing me the proof that 51GB disks will not play on existing players? I have not read anything official (like a press release from the DVD form) that says that they will, or will not play on existing players. But you apparently you have special knowledge that the rest of the world does not know, and we would appreciate you settling the debate once and for all.

[Clayton @ Dec 13th 2007 5:29PM]

Wether they play or not is not the point (though, I am betting they wont play. I can't imagine a player being able to go from reading 2 15gb layers to 3 17gb ones without any hiccups, let alone there already being hiccups for layer changes on some movies on HD DVD). The problem is the bitrate/bandwidth still wont improve and will still be the same exact stuff we've seen already.

[stephenbratz2 @ Dec 13th 2007 6:32PM]

Clayton, provide proof. Claiming that you do not see any way it could work does not tell me anything. What are your qualification? Are you involved in designing and building blue lasers and the drives that they fit in? I am not, therefore I cannot say one way or the other. But you must know better than the engineers at Toshiba and those involved with the the 51GB spec to say that it will not work, perhaps you should contact the DVD forum and fill them in on the specifics so they can stop developing the spec.

As for data rate, there were specs posted a while ago on AVSForum (from Toshiba, in PDF) for all the available players. The drives are all rated at 2X speed, meaning they could feed out the data at faster than what is required for the spec. Now the decoders may not be able to keep up - I do not know. But with your engineering qualifications, perhaps you can tell us. But the datarate argument is the latest one to be used by BD supporters, all before it have been proven wrong.

One was that the 360 add-on would not work because USB does not provide enough bandwith. We have seen that one be proven wrong.

Another argument was that BD was better because of disk size. But when 51GB was announced, we have people saying things that may not be true (like drives not supporting 51GB) and therefore will not beat BD.

We hear over and over that extras (commentary, deleted scenes, etc.) are not important. If not, then why is the BDA adding additional profiles?

There were arguments that TrueHD audio is not on HD disks (which there are), but not all the BD disks do either.

Now we are on the data bandwith argument. Remember, the bandwith issue is transferring data from the disk to the decoder. But when we are using advanced codecs such as VC-1 and AVC, the amount of data that needs to be passed from the disk to the decoder is less, so you do not need higher bandwith. If you are using less efficient codecs, such as MPEG-2, then yes you do need the extra bandwith. But if you can use a better codec and send more data, then the bandwith argument is yet another white elephant put forth by the Blu-ray supporters.


We have HD players now that can use the audio and video codecs, and transfer that data without any missing information from. Does HD have enough bandwith to send uncompressed audio and video to the display? No. But when you

[Clayton @ Dec 13th 2007 6:49PM]

It's actually pretty simple. Right now, the HD-A1 has audio drop outs and freezes up sometimes on layer changes. Now, imagine a player that wasn't designed for 3 layers now having to read 2gb more per layer and switch 2 times during the movie. Back when Toshiba first thought about doing tripple layered discs (back then they were going to be 45gb discs) an engineer was interviewed and he said that he doubted they'd be playable on current players. If you would like a link for that, I could gladly find one (it'd probably be just as easy for you to find it yourself).

I realize you're trying to bait me and try to insult my intelligence by being rude and arrogant, but don't worry, I have no time for you. People can read my previous posts for my thoughts/facts on things.

[mike @ Dec 13th 2007 5:50PM]

isnt this an OOLLLLLLDDDDD comment in reply to comments made at a blu-ray exhibition a month+ ago

[stephenbratz2 @ Dec 13th 2007 8:10PM]

I am not trying to insult your intelligence - you could say the opposite is happening here, that you are trying to insult others by saying that you know for certian that 51GB is not possible, etc. All I asked for is some sort of proof that this is true. I even stated that I do not know, if you are so knowledgeable about the subject, I wish to be educated. If you can do so, then I will happily concede. I am not trying to bait you, you are making claims that are not well-founded, and rather than people being scared away from what you wrote, I am trying to say that your claims are not proven. And the "I have no time for you" is an indication of being rude.

Does an A1 have drop outs, possible (there have been some people saying so). I have an A2, a 360 addon, a PS3, and a BDP-301. The hardware in an A2 and A1 are very similar. They use the same bandwith, same HD DVD format standards. I have had no problems with my A2, 360 (and no problems with my BD players either, for the record), and I have not heard similar problems from others. If there is a problem with drop-outs, then it would be specific to the A1, not the format. Finally, changing layers is not a problem with bandwith. The laser needs to refocus on a different layer. A change in layers would starve the data pipeline to the decoder. The process of read data -> refocus -> start reading again would cause a drop in data being read from the disk and sent to the decoder, meaning that there would be much less data than what is possible with the current HD spec.

If you were to read the specs on the drives used in HD players, you would see that they are actually designed for triple layer. There was a comment by somebody from Toshiba that they did have problems with the 3rd layer, but by changing the focus of the laser **through software** (e.g. firmware) to focus for 17GB/layer, the 3rd layer could be read just fine.

[R.D. @ Dec 14th 2007 1:52AM]

Hi Jason, I'm a programmer and have never complained about the lines of code required to program something. The number of lines is not the issue and you know that. The BDA voted against HDi because BDJ is free. No one has to pay to use it. That's not the case with HDi.

Sure. Initially, there may be better libraries in HDi, but long term, BDJ will have more flexibility and lower cost. Microsoft pushes for it to attempt to capture $$$/disc. It didn't happen for BRD, so they support HD-DVD.

As for DRM, I don't have a problem with what the BDA is trying to accomplish. At least it one case (Fox) it brings and extra studio on board. Content providers have a right to protect their IP. If they don't have it, they won't release HDM. Sony, as a movie studio, knows this and they started a format friendly studio. Sorry to all the pirates!

[mattgreene @ Dec 14th 2007 5:27AM]

@Jason

So Blu Ray sucks b/c early players (except for the single most popular one) can't play BDJ enabled discs but HD-DVD rocks even though these magic 51gb discs wont be playable by any stand alone player on the market. Please explain why.

[nephersir7 @ Dec 14th 2007 5:13PM]

Original DVD FTW !!! seriously.