Upcoming FireWire spec revs things up to 3.2Gbps
By Paul Miller 
posted December 15th 2007 10:02AM
posted December 15th 2007 10:02AM
USB 3.0 really threw down this September with a theoretical max throughput of 4Gbps, but it looks like FireWire isn't going down without a fight. The latest and greatest FireWire version, dubbed "S3200" by those creatives up in marketing, uses the same ports and cables as FireWire 800, but boosts speeds to 3.2Gbps, which should make it pretty competitive with USB in the real world -- though actual real-life speeds will probably depend on who's adding up the bits. According to the 1394 Trade Association: "The S3200 standard will sustain the position of IEEE 1394 as the absolute performance leader," but we hear they're biased. They are claiming that where current FireWire 800 hard drives can move 90MB per second, S3200 should be able to do 400MB. Speed concerns aside, the power delivery, peer to peer architecture, and handy networking capabilities of 1394 mean that FireWire should hopefully be around for a long time to come.[Via Slashdot]
@Greg...get your terminology right first then you'll earn the right to be smug.
http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?langid=100&navid=15&itemid=4781&action=news_details
Console and DAW as One
Unlike other solutions, which attempt to piece together independently developed components, ICON was purpose-built by Digidesign to extend and deepen the powerful capabilities of its Pro Tools|HD workstations. With direct control of the mix engine from the worksurface, ICON goes beyond mere integration — the console and DAW truly act as one.
Just an example but visit any major pro audio gear retailer and get enlightened. btw Digidesign's HD-based DAWs DO rely on the host's CPUs, be it Mac OS or Windows, but I believe you're mixed up over the difference between PCI-based processing and standalone systems.
In high end PT systems the "core" system relies on BOTH a CPU host, and a PCI card 'bay' utilizes SATA or SCSI for data throughput and processing on outboard cards (HD1, HD2 rather than the host), that interfaces with Audio I/O; and the control surface proper (i.e. ICON console, Control 8, etc.) is simply a 'fader pack' work surface, that has nothing to do with audio I/O or throughput connected via ethernet or USB) but integrates as the SIMULTANEOUS controller for the system; thus an integrated system.
While it is fact, the near-zero latency in these systems are possible because audio flows down protocols other than firewire/usb and key audio processing is not host reliant, these systems are NOT standalone, as you absolutely require a host to run the app itself.
Chris makes a valid point, in that the 'industry' - professional audio - uses BOTH host-based and core-based systems, just for different applications (remote portable audio on a laptop, where I can record professional sound on the go on bus power; try that with your mx2424).
http://www.silentway.com/tips/equip/io.php
...because the industry is moving away from host-based DAWs...now that's a LOL
So Greg, when are you selling your reel-to-reel?
Apple is NOT largely responsible for the use of USB, unless you can use the same logic that Sony Walkmans are largely responsible for the mass use of iPods. It was the PC world which embraced USB as a low cost alternative to firewire. It was the USB world which took peripherals out of the stone age and made the USB ubiquitous. It was Apple which had to scramble to include usb so it's customer base could take advantage of the sheer breadth of peripherals available on the PC side. Oh, by the way, IIRC Intel invented USB.
Also iPods were a failure until they dropped firewire and adopted USB.
And Apple was the first company to dump legacy ports with the original iMac and go USB only (before using FireWire!).
@crescentdavid I'm afraid you've got it quite wrong:
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/power/library/pa-spec7.html
"The original "bondi blue" iMac was the first computer to offer USB ports without offering "legacy" ports. That's right -- no serial ports, no ADB. This changes the network effects. Before the iMac showed up, there were many millions of PC users who had no USB ports and perhaps a couple of million who had a USB port and also legacy ports. The biggest market in 1998 was in serial and parallel ports (or joystick ports, PS/2 ports, and so on) -- there was no reason to target the USB market. That would just restrict your audience.
The iMac presented a ready-made market of users who chose the Mac line for its graphics capability. In turn, the iMac offered a captive audience of users who would buy a USB peripheral but would not buy any other kind of peripheral. These users provided a market for USB peripherals that wasn't facing competition from other port choices. The result was a flood of USB devices in white-and-blue plastic. This was a crucial turning point that created a reason (tied to a proven system choice) to prefer USB to non-USB ports.
Once adoption was foist onto this substantial segment of users, the technical merits of the technology won out easily. USB's technical superiority (for most peripherals) to the conglomeration of a half-dozen different port types was unambiguous."
excellent
I liek teh fierwier.
"USB 3.0 really threw down this September with a theoretical max throughput of 4Gbps"
Who cares. USB 3 probably isn't going to really show its ugly face for at least 2 years. Mean time Firewire 800 is here now, and kicks USB's ass in every sense. Expensive as shit but its here.
Sorry but USB for anything other then low bandwidth devices sucks my right ass cheek HARD. The minute external drives started to get above 50GB and we started moving multi GB files around via removable storage USB became a massive bottleneck.
And eSATA current generation and next generation kick/will kick firewire's ass. As I mentioned above there are hundreds of eSATA products on the market today - newegg.com sells over 300 eSATA products today all offering MUCH more bandwidth than firewire 800:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Description=esata&x=0&y=0
eSATA offers the same performance as internal hardware save for very expensive enterprise class interfaces.
One thing that concerns me about USB 3.0 is that they seem to be going with a hybrid electrical/optical cable.
The electrical is there for power, and for backward compatibility with USB 1 and 2, and the optical is there for the high transfer speed of 3.0.
It seems very risky to me for a consumer cable. I don't think there is that much precendent for an optical cable being plugged in/removed as much as this, let alone a hybrid cable.
And, if firewire can do it with purely electrical, USB 3.0 should be able to do it.
Even firewire 400 kicks USB2's ass, apart from adoption :/
Aren't eSATA limited to short cable length? Anyone know?
Yes eSATA has short lengths but for the most part high-end external drives are the only thing I could see using/needing all that bandwidth. Firewire, USB, new high speed wireless standards won't ever match internal speeds like eSATA but don't really need as much and/or you can setup a network if you need something really long distance. Anyhow the point is Firewire hasn't been king in bandwidth since eSATA came on the scene.
Why does everyone think only about storage when usb/firewire is mentioned? What about a cool Firewire monitor that you can daisychain multiple screens with just one cable? That would be cool.
Torvalds?
Stallman?
Cohen?
DeRaadt?
Design us a hardware networking protocol, and make it scale... please. I'd so use it.
Ummmm...First, yes Apple DID indeed start the USB revolution with the launch of their first iMac line. USB was around before that, but there were hardly even a handful of periphs implementing it. Within 1 month of the iMac launch there were over 100 new USB products launched. This was not a coincidence. The iMac was, at the time, the best selling computer in history. Apple gave the users only one choice...USB. And the market reacted appropriately. If you don't believe me PC fanbois, look on the back of your PC and I can guarantee that you are probably still using a friggin archaic PS/2 port for you mouse and keyboard. Even with the adoption of USB like gangbusters, the PC world has still to this day drug their collective feets. Just recently you can find PCs without legacy ports. Not bad, considering they're about 10 years late to the real party.
As far as FW and USB goes. I for one prefer FW. Why? The same reason all of the top music, film and high data users like it. It's real-world faster. The "theoretical" maximum of USB 2.0 is a joke. In real world tests, FW400 beats USB 2.0 in most transfer tests. Also, USB is considered a "dumb" technology, needing the CPU to oversee every step of the data transfer. This is why most camcorders, automobiles and pro-line equipment run with FW.
I also hear alot about the "high cost and fees" associated with FW. The cost 5 years ago was $5.00US per port. Yes this is more expensive than the $0.00US that Intel charges, but adding $10 to the cost of a PC is nothing. It CAN be corrected for to give the end-user a better experience.
Just a little correct info to calm the storm.
Apple was not first with USB at the time were selling about 3% of PCs with about a 5% userbase. They did not drive much since they were a much small niche than they are now.
PCs had legacy free at about the same time as the iMac but did not start becoming popular until around 2001/2002 but you just don't know what you are talking about. Here is a mainstream aftermarket motherboard review I dug up from early 2002: http://techreport.com/articles.x/3590/1
Here is the more innovation that didn't come from Apple:
GUI - Xerox's idea, not Apple's
64-bit PCs - Alpha PC running NT was first in 1992 and again later in 1997, not Apple ten years later
DAP - MPMan was first in 1997, not Apple in late 2001
HDD DAP - Compaq spinoff Remote Solutions was first in late 1999, not Apple in late 2001
Mini HDD DAPs - Creative, iRiver, Rio all had products on the market at least 6 months before the iPod Mini was announced
MP3 broadcasting - Nullsoft in 1998, not Apple in 2004
Konfabulator - Konfabulator in 2003, not Apple Dashboard in 2005
Watson-like functionality added Sherlock and on and on..
Think different, think again fool!
Sorry but you were clearly clueless you said:
"Just recently you can find PCs without legacy ports. Not bad, considering they're about 10 years late to the real party."
2001 PC OEMs started releasing legacy free PCs about 3 years after the iMac came out. About a year later you could buy an aftermarket legacy free PC motherboard if you liked to upgrade.
There was no significant advantage for computer users that have legacy free PCs and that why adoption was slow.
This isn't even considering USB was out for 4 years before the iMac was even released - I had two generations of PCs before the iMac had USB. Their minute 3% marketshare did not drive USB adoption in anything but the small 5% Mac niche back then. Small hardware niches do not drive the market.
Yes, I agree with you on your point, but the mainstream computer manufacturers in the PC area did not come with USB as a sole interface until just recently. Yes, you could purchase a motherboard and DIY, but Compaq, Dell, HP, IBM, e-machines, toshiba, gateway, Sony, Packard Bell, etc. did not do this. You have also forgotten that USB, even though you could get it on your DIY PC, didn't function properly until two generations of Windows came out afterwards. Windows 95 promised plug and play like the Mac, but the term on the Windows PC quickly coined the phrase Plug and Pray, because most of the time it didn't work. So, yes, you could have USB on your machine, but there were next to no periphs as stated before until the iMac came out. Also, the few periphs out there worked about as well on the Windows platform as they did on the Linux platform at the time....hardly ever, if at all.
First, son, you obviously don't have a friggin clue about what you're talking about. I quote one of the MANY articles regarding USB and the iMac...
"The original iMac was the first Macintosh computer to include a USB port. In fact, USB was the only peripheral interface built into the original iMac; Apple dropped previous ports such as the Apple Desktop Bus and SCSI in favor of the newer interface. Although USB was invented by Intel and was also available on PCs at the time, the iMac’s popularity and sole dependence on USB helped popularize the interface among third party peripheral makers, as evidenced by the many early USB peripherals that were made of translucent colored plastic to match the color schemes of the original iMac."
Take a look ANYWHERE and you can see this. Scanners, mice, keyboards ALL started flowing out after the iMac was announced. Actually, go do some homework for a change and look at the number of USB periphs announced at Macworld and in the few weeks right after. Then look at the total number in the months after macworld and then during all of the years that the PC used it. The numbers will astound even a high school drop out like yourself.
As far as the innovations that didn't come from Apple....there never was any mention of this in the article, or my post. Grow the F*ck up.
So next time, think, or better yet read before opening your mouth.
Congrats, you've just proven that you know nothing about this topic, and all further retorts will be thought of in the same vein.