Merry Christmas, American public! Reuters is reporting that
FBI is moving ahead with its plan to spend a billion US taxpayer dollars on what it calls the Next Generation Identification system, which it aims to make the largest biometrics cache in the world. Because really, what could possibly go wrong in letting the government collect records of everyone's faces, fingerprints, and palm patterns (what, no retinal scans?) and even collude with private employers to automatically collect and add all the biometric data amassed during potential employees' criminal background checks? Nothing, absolutely nothing. Obviously.
P.S. -The only other document on NGI we were able to immediately turn up appears to come from 2006, and it doesn't like the
same that Reuters is referring to. [Warning: PDF link]
posted Dec 22nd 2007 at 1:52PM
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Luis @ Dec 22nd 2007 2:02PM
I for one welcome our new FBI led government masters....
Oh wait, I DON'T.
monkfishbandana @ Dec 22nd 2007 2:15PM
I can't see what's wrong with this. Surely giving away a small portion of your privacy will be benificial in the long run when the police try to find criminals easily and cheaply.
I can see where everyone is coming from with the whole 'I ain't givin' no nothin' to the man!' argument, but it can't be all that bad. Can it?
L @ Dec 22nd 2007 2:17PM
You read 1984 already, yes? Maybe watched V For Vendetta?
If not - add that as a top priority entry in your to-do list.
Ryan Block @ Dec 22nd 2007 2:25PM
monk, there's a little saying that goes: "Any society that would give up liberty to gain security will deserve neither and lose both."
Matt @ Dec 22nd 2007 2:25PM
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
monkfishbandana @ Dec 22nd 2007 2:27PM
@ L
Wait...I have seen V for Vendetta...
I DON'T WANT THAT AT ALL!!
...except his mask.
Luis @ Dec 22nd 2007 2:35PM
My fellow posters are correct. Give an inch, loose the whole enchilada (just made that up).
Point is, when you least expect it, this power you are allowing the government to have for supposed good, can and WILL be turned against the innocent one day.
Maybe not today, maybe not THIS administration. But do you know who will be runing things in 10 years? 20? 50!? Don't just think of yourself either, think of the next generations that will have to live with our choices and with what we let happen today.
Power corrupts... Government by definition is power.
BigD145 @ Dec 22nd 2007 2:39PM
@Ryan
Benjamin Franklin. A smart and important man in history.
Ryan Block @ Dec 22nd 2007 2:47PM
BigD145, Franklin is actually commonly mis-attributed that quote, IIRC. But the quote is no less cogent.
Alex Padilla @ Dec 22nd 2007 2:47PM
@ Luis
No, government by definition is an elected group of officials set in place to regulate the masses in an orderly manner (and thus our federation is born). I'm not calling you ignorant, but I'm just saying that only ignorant people would think the government has power over its citizens. The citizens give the government its power; essentially, we LEND it to them. The government has no rights, it only has a job: to ensure ours.
Luis @ Dec 22nd 2007 3:17PM
@Alex Padilla: You do realize that you are describing the IDEAL Of Government? The reality of government can be quite different.
Did you not read my next comment down? The problem does not necessarily today's Government, which for the most part resembles what you described. Notice I say FOR THE MOST PART. It is not perfect, as power always corrupts if one is not vigilent. Once a tool for control is given, no matter how many good intentions are behind it, you can never take it away.
If decades down the road things happen and we end up under not so great leaders, who is to stop them from using these powerfull tools against the innocent? Think about it. You can expound the definitions of IDEAL government all day, but ideals are nothing if they are not backed by honest and good MEN.
Brent @ Dec 22nd 2007 3:37PM
Ryan's right about the quote. It's long been one of my favorites, both for itself and the history surrounding it.
The original quote is "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." and was probably written by Richard Jackson. Franklin published but did not write the book it first appeared in. There are a dozen variants on the quote now, all certainly wrongly attributed to Franklin.
Alex Padilla @ Dec 22nd 2007 3:38PM
@ Luis
Oh, I understand what you're saying, and you're partly right. The thing is, even in today's government, there are checks and balances to ensure our rights are preserved. A little bit of public outcry never did anyone harm (ie the fallen-through sale of all East Coast ports to Dubai Ports World). However, it is our duty as citizens to stay informed of the balance of power in the nation. We have a lot more than normally assumed.
loci @ Dec 22nd 2007 3:58PM
"You read 1984 already, yes? Maybe watched V For Vendetta?
If not - add that as a top priority entry in your to-do list."
yeah...and after watching 'i am legend'...cures for cancer can f*ck right off too
Matt @ Dec 22nd 2007 5:07PM
There is some support to the idea that the freedom quote was written by Franklin, but he wrote it in the Pennsylvanian Assembly in a response to the governor.
yoshi @ Dec 22nd 2007 8:36PM
When you say, "I'm not calling you ignorant", you are, in fact, calling them ignorant. You're just putting a little smiley on it.
Will @ Dec 22nd 2007 2:03PM
So are they going to be launching an FBI competitor to HotOrNot, or just criticizing people's facial hair from afar?
*Makes mental note to insist on wearing Groucho Marx noseglasses for next driver's license photo*
ashakydd @ Dec 22nd 2007 2:47PM
I think I'll pimp out the fake side burns and 70 gay porn mustache the enxt time I hit the DMV.
vince @ Dec 22nd 2007 9:02PM
Sadly, those beards (fake or not) won't be at all useful if they record a proper biometric facial scan of you.
Cash @ Dec 22nd 2007 2:03PM
Anyone else wonder if people in the UK think American media pretentious whenever they report anything about the UK or it's government? That's basically how I feel anytime I see a story from Reuters about the US.
Don't worry boys, the brain ninjas won't be coming for you in the middle of the night.
Kurt @ Dec 22nd 2007 2:09PM
They'll be coming for you in the middle of the day.
BigD145 @ Dec 22nd 2007 2:20PM
For those times when the FBI needs to make you disappear and replace you with a body double?
Ed @ Dec 22nd 2007 2:32PM
I think this is a great idea. I don't think it goes far enough. Retinal scans should be included, and they should start tagging all new citizens (new borns and sworn in immigrants).
Backlin @ Dec 22nd 2007 6:20PM
You better be sarcastic. This combined with Radio Frequency Identification (or triangulation theories or GPS tags in each person) will encourage security for giving up our rights.
The time of retaliation is nigh.
Mobius_1 @ Dec 23rd 2007 3:14AM
Next they will chip everyone's brains and we will all become robots to serve one master in the quest for universal domination (ok maybe i went a bit too far but you get the idea)
Ian k @ Dec 23rd 2007 9:55AM
I,think you sir are a lunatic.
Here's the bottom line,america is finely facing up to the fact that we aren't you immune to having a government,And what happened is a couple of fucking dumb ass's decide hey im slowly gonna gain complete control of the american people and monitor every single goddamn aspect of there lives....I mean lets think,How many government orgs. there are now good god man ,But its the people like you sir,The followers who are gonna screw us all over who are gonna screw are kids and there kids and theres kids over,and with this kinda thought how can you sleep at night...hell do you think you need this ,Do you still need someone to hold your hand while you go to the bathroom
Luis @ Dec 22nd 2007 2:37PM
Wow.. umm, bet you would gladly join the ranks of the "enforncers" when the sh!t hits the fan ey? tisk tisk
FordGTGuy @ Dec 22nd 2007 2:39PM
The United States is still a democracy and the only people above the Government are the People. The Constitution still stands and is the oldest Constitution still used. If you think your rights are being taken away from you then make a big deal out of it. However if this helps find criminals, including rapists and murderers, and keep them off the streets and away from people there not supposed to be around then fine.
Remember in America your innocent until proven guilty not the other way around. So if your a criminal then you have whats coming to you but if your innocent you have nothing to worry about.
Also the advantage of a better system that will help keep innocent men and women out of prison would be nice. Nothing is worst then finding out someone has been in prison for 60 years for something he never committed because some lady picked him from a lineup, happened in Hampton Roads, Virginia.
BigD145 @ Dec 22nd 2007 3:17PM
That's why most people in prison are there for nonviolent crimes, except CEO's and elected officials. They get to complete their terms and serve vastly shortened sentences with little to no fine. That's why all the "guilty until we decide to let them go while not apologizing" prisoners are not kept on the North American continent.
Tell me how you prove your innocence in a case where you are deemed unpatriotic (charged with sedition). By the by, your judge and the jury of your peers are all cold war vets.
It is far too easy to abuse this database.
Seung-Hwan @ Dec 22nd 2007 3:25PM
Learn how to speak English.
crescentdavid @ Dec 22nd 2007 3:33PM
After seeing the Justice department act as a wall to protect this "president" from being brought up on charges of breaking the law (witness the pathetic history of Gonzales and the current refusal by Mukasey of allowing congress to investigate CIA shenanigans), coupled with bush's refusal to recognize the Geneva Convention, FISA or Habeas Corpus and you have to be a cool-aid drinker to hold that viewpoint.
The Purveyor of Justice @ Dec 24th 2007 6:50PM
@ fordgtguy
Sorry, Bush suspended habeas corpus a long time ago, along with a half a million other things in the patriot act; guess what that means... your guilty until proven innocent, not the other way around.
And no, we don't have the constitution, that was thrown out the window a long time ago. Try going to court and defending your position with the constitution. Whether they abide by it, is at their own discretion.
Jared @ Dec 24th 2007 11:25PM
@ FordGTGuy:
the only problem with your otherwise correct assertion is this- Remember: (as all the neo-cons and their sycophants will tell you) 9/11 changed everything. It even changes the meaning of this "Constitution" which you so highly speak of and of which our current president has been infamously quoted as saying "is just a god-damned piece of paper!"
You, my friend, could be picked up tomorrow, by any law enforcement agency and taken anywhere in the world without anyone knowing when, why or how you've gone. They don't have to charge you with a crime, show you the evidence against you and can hold you (indefinitely) as an "enemy combatant" without even having to give a definition for that label with which you are being held under.
All this because of the Patriot Act, an Executive Branch that is drunk on power and out of control, AND a Democratic party-led Congress that is too neutered to do anything about it.
If you're not scared and pissed off, you have NOT been paying attention.
X Budd @ Dec 22nd 2007 2:44PM
Off topic a bit, but anyone know what movie that image is from?
I feel like I've seen it, and now its bugging me!
Kizorblade @ Dec 22nd 2007 2:51PM
1984 I believe, never seen the movie. But the book is excellent and definitely worth a read.
And watch V For Vendetta while you're at it, they've got the same topic
Miguel @ Dec 22nd 2007 2:54PM
It's from the Richard Burton version of 1984, and even if you haven't seen the movie, you have seen the picture before. Engadget uses it every time they want to make a pretentious post about our loss of liberty to the government (read: OMG, the United States of America is Big Brother!).
I'm all for maintaining my personal liberty, but posts like these...just read over them, it amounts ot little more than fear-mongering idiocy. Otherwise, fantastic blog.
Dolemite @ Dec 22nd 2007 2:54PM
That means its working.
Randavance @ Dec 22nd 2007 2:46PM
I'm going to go out and buy a nice pair of leather gloves.
Kizorblade @ Dec 22nd 2007 2:52PM
Can't sorry. It's been taken away, so has the good milk, cheese, chocolate, nearly everything.
Oh, and the city has been renamed to Airstrip 1.
FordGTGuy @ Dec 22nd 2007 3:02PM
@Luis
"Government by definition is power."
This is completely wrong in every aspect. If you wanted to look at it as an analogy the government is the gun and the people are the bullets in that without the people a government is just an empty useless gun.
Government by definition is a foundation of balance that tries to make order of chaos. If we had no government then we would have no balance in the world.
Actual Definition of Government:
the political direction and control exercised over the actions of the members, citizens, or inhabitants of communities, societies, and states; direction of the affairs of a state, community, etc.; political administration: Government is necessary to the existence of civilized society.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/government
In a perfect world there would be no reason to have governments but as we all know this world isn't perfect.
Matt @ Dec 22nd 2007 3:14PM
ouch, everyone in here just got pwned!!!
Luis @ Dec 22nd 2007 3:39PM
Okie dokie, let's talk about a PERFECT WORLD then shall we? In a perfect world we would not need Government? Ok, valid point. But then, by that definition this is NOT a perfect world as we DO need government. Furthering this logic, since this is NOT a perfect world, it would stand to reason that no Governments can ever be perfect either. They can be founded on wonderful ideals and come close to perfection maybe, but as of yet perfection eludes us.
Our government is based on wonderful ideals, but a Government is only as good as the people we put into power. The people can make mistakes and the people in power can make mistakes. And sometimes the people in power don't always have the best interests of the people in mind. Sometimes people can be elected with agendas that are very different from the IDEALS we hold dear.
What you are not seeing is the big picture. You have a very narrow view of "what is" and "what can be" The truth is that without constant vigilence, an unchecked government can turn bad pretty quickly. Can you really not see this? Will you still live in a rose colored glasses world were perfection and ideals written on paper can stand forever without constant supervision from we the people?
Corruption does not happen over night. It happens slowly, when the watchfull eye of the masses sleep. It happens everytime little liberties are lost, every time a little less privacy is allowed (for the good of the people they say). It happens ever so slowly as to not be felt by anyone. And one day years later, decades even, you look back and you realize it has all been lost. And you guessed it, we the people did it by ALLOWING it to happen unchecked.
Ed @ Dec 22nd 2007 8:29PM
@Luis - It's not decades. It really can be a few years. Very Few. People like FordGTGuy need to do a lot of thinking and research into World War II Germany.
The German people were not evil. They were decent, hard working, moral people. They had traditions, values, and an ordered society. How did it go from there to a book-burning, oppressive, genocidal country hell bent on world domination and ethnic cleansing?
I don't think the average German would have condoned or freely participated with much of what went on during that time period. Some of them in power even tried to stop it. They failed and were killed. For most it was a time of confusion, fear, and capitulation.
Put that time frame into perspective. Hitler came to power in 1933. Poland was not invaded till 1939. It was all over in 1945.
12 years. That's it. From relative peace, to a veritable shitstorm of confusion, pain, fear, chaos, death and misery, to the destruction and division of Germany. All in 12 years.
It's only been 6 years since 9-11. How many liberties have we given up since then? With the looming recession, maybe even another depression, what kind of stress and fear mongering will we be subject too?
Every SINGLE time and idea like this FBI database occurs, even in its smallest measurement, it must be fought tooth and nail, like our lives depended on it that SECOND.
Period.
I would never vote for something like this. As an employer I would not comply with any rules, I would fake whatever documentation and fingerprints were sent, etc. Basically, I would perform whatever acts of civil disobedience that were necessary to ensure that the veracity and effectiveness of a program like this would lead to its demise.
As an employee, I would never consent to this. Ever. I did not even take a drug test at my last job. I refused. I told them why I refused. For the record, I do not take drugs, drink, or smoke and I was hired by the company anyways.
@FordGTGuy - You are ignorant and/or naive. I don't say that to be confrontational or disprectful. Ignorance, in of itself, is not an indication of character. It merely indicates that you lack the experience or knowledge of something. I do know people like you, and I have many friends just like you. Sometimes you frustrate the hell out of me.
You are ignorant of the facts and history that have brought as a people to the crossroads we find ourselves at now. You are certainly naive if you beleive that the people, who make up this government now, are benign or have our best interests at heart.
INNOCENCE is not ARMOR. It will not save you from becoming a victim. I say this time and time again as an example, "The Jew's innocence did not save them from the concentration camps and the gas chambers".
Our greatest protection as a society will always be:
1) Numbers. It is hard to enforce your will against greater numbers, when your ideas, policies, and beliefs are unpopular. Although it is MUCH easier to do if 2,3, and 4 are missing.
2) Privacy. For many, as a part of our culture, it is considered rude, immoral, and/or illegal to pry into the private affairs of another citizen or thier interactions with other citizens.
3) Anonymity. Not to be confused with Privacy. Anonymity allows a citizens actions to performed anonymously and without fear of being judged based on those actions. We find this operating at most fundemental levels of our society now. From voting to secret ballots during deliberations by a Jury. Research into social choice theory, which is part of Game Theory.
4) The 2nd Amendment. An armed society is one that is protected from the government. It is hard to force your will on another when you have a gun pointed in your face. I don't particulary like guns, but I like the idea of people having enough of them to make goverment afraid of taking actions like the Nazis, or ruling junta in Burma. The Nazis enacted gun laws in 1938. Many people feel that the success of the Final Solution was, in part, due to the fact that ordinary citizens were unarmed.
Finally, sometimes the most logical solutions based on advanced technology will not, and cannot apply to human beings. It is perfectly logical to assume that 100% of all crimes would be solved, if 100% of crimes involving forensic evidence could be used to identify people in a 100% complete biometric database. Logic alone would dictate the immediate funding, construction, and use of such a system.
Only a perfect society, in which all people have the best interests of others at heart could afford the monitoring of everyone, everywhere, all the time. Of course, then why would there be crime or the FBI?
Watch the movie Gattaca and tell me if you really think that is a perfect society or not.
Haxxy @ Dec 22nd 2007 2:57PM
As long as they're collecting the info from all of us anyway, they might as well start building credit card information into fingerprints and such.
Det. @ Dec 22nd 2007 3:02PM
...In other news, thousands of job openings have been announced in an anticipation for the upcoming telescreen project...
AlexNC @ Dec 22nd 2007 3:06PM
Our rights are going to continue to be infringed upon until a person that obides by the Constitution is back in office. Until then, this will continue to happen slowly until we are all carbon copies of each other because of the constricts of the laws. Speak to loud, you are shut up ... sounds far fetched? but I guarantee you, it is not far off. See Ron Paul if you have not yet learned about him. He is running for president of the US and he is strictly against programs like this.
Dolemite @ Dec 22nd 2007 4:03PM
Yeah, vote for Ron Paul, the guy who will protect the constitution....for Neo-Nazis....
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php/ron-paul-revolution-live-blimpvision-388512p326.html
Ron Paul Revolution - Blimp in Elizabeth City, Rally in Wash., D.C. - Page 326 - Stormfront White Nationalist Community
http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=63682
Ron Paul Lies About Lack Of Involvement With White Nationalists - Vanguard News Network Forum (Another White Nationalist site)
Not only do they donate money to him, they vote for him in internet poll, and even attend his rallies.
Ron Paul supporters (so far): anti-semites, white nationalists, "9/11 was an Inside Job" nutcases...
And of course the Mullahs...
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=35498§ionid=3510203
Press TV
And their loyal foot soldiers...
muslimsvoteronpaul. com/
Ron Paul 2008 › Muslims Vote Ron Paul!
(Feel free to add to the list)
packetsniffer @ Dec 22nd 2007 3:11PM
I don't like this thing either, but you guys at least need to be truthful in your reporting:
"AT AN EMPLOYER'S REQUEST, the FBI will also retain the fingerprints of employees who have undergone criminal background checks, the paper said."
Matt @ Dec 22nd 2007 3:15PM
I am confused on how our Govt. knowing our identity is a sacrifice of our rights...
Det. @ Dec 22nd 2007 3:21PM
imagine writing an anonymous angry letter to the government. Now imagine the government using your DNA to identify that you were the one that licked the seal. Then imagine power hungry politicians/corporate overlords using that information to make your life a living hell.