Merry Christmas, American public! Reuters is reporting that
FBI is moving ahead with its plan to spend a billion US taxpayer dollars on what it calls the Next Generation Identification system, which it aims to make the largest biometrics cache in the world. Because really, what could possibly go wrong in letting the government collect records of everyone's faces, fingerprints, and palm patterns (what, no retinal scans?) and even collude with private employers to automatically collect and add all the biometric data amassed during potential employees' criminal background checks? Nothing, absolutely nothing. Obviously.
P.S. -The only other document on NGI we were able to immediately turn up appears to come from 2006, and it doesn't like the
same that Reuters is referring to. [Warning: PDF link]
posted December 22nd 2007 1:52PM
sounds like paranoia...
Self-sealing envelopes... always be one step ahead (I'm moving to Japan anyway).
Tony,
Good luck with moving to Japan, but if you are so concerned about living in a police state, then Japan is probably not the best choice.
I am not sure how familiar you are with Japanese police tactics, but there is reason why their confession rate is about 90%, and conviction rate is about 95%. But then being made to stand wet and in your underwear in an air-conditioned room is not really torture. :)
They won't just know your identity, they will have complete control of your identity. They also do not have to tell you what they are doing with that information. If they want to, they can sell your identity. They can subcontract the data acquisition to a civilian company. If that civilian company happens to 'lose' some data, it's not the government's fault. If data is falsified or mixed up accidentally with other data, say with a real criminal, you will not be able to prove the data is incorrect (2004 election). It's considered a government secret and you can't look at it. If you make a Freedom of Information Act request for your own data, you'll get it in about 25 years. You can't touch it any sooner than that. You might wait in prison for it.
@ Matt
It's not paranoia if they're watching you
@Matt, Don't worry, the government already knows your identity. That much is a given since you have a SSN and (theoretically) pay taxes. However, the government can't automatically identify you individually--doing so takes some amount of effort. Once they have a broad database of biometric facial scans and fingerprints, identifying you individually will be trivial. This means that all public spaces equipped with biometric cameras and banks and ATMs using biometric fingerprint scanners can be used to track your individual movements, both in real time or historically.
Should you care...I think so. Consider this for example, if you attended an anti-government protest and had a biometric image on record, the government would be able to automatically retrieve the personal data on everyone attending that protest, and recreate your actions before and after. And they do record and store those images. You can argue the constitutionality of the government recording those images, but they would probably pass...Things they could do include putting your name on a "No-fly" list prior to large political events, or blocking your employment in government jobs. What they will do with the information becomes a bit of a crap shoot based on the whims of the person or people controlling it. However, given the effort being put into automated data mining, the government sees value in having that information.
@Tony, Sadly, you'd be required to submit a biometric facial scan and fingerprint when arrived in Japan. Of course that's to stop terrorism, but that data is being made available to police agencies for domestic criminal cases...
@Matt: Sounds like you need to wake the f*ck up.
I'd bet my life that none og you chicken littles have actually lived in a society where "the government" (assuming there is such a thing) actually does makes people disappear. I love everyone brings up 1984 everytime something like this comes up, but most of you don't realise that such a world is already reality in many parts of the world, but you just happen to be ignorant about it because your lives are insulated from the rest of the world. You know the "real" world.
But there is no point in displaying such courage on the internet, as none of this will change anything for anyone. A rant here, a rant there, maybe some of you will email this story to someone friends. And then what? Yeah, just turn on your iPod and go back to doing your thing. I bet 99% of you will never even remember this story ever again. What's the point of fighting make-believe battles when you don't acknowledge the real war in front of you?
In any case, what I find amusing about these Sky is Falling stories is that most Westerners are exhibitionists. Anybody who wants to watch you is already watching you.
Besides, on somewhat of a tangent, but the best guarantee to the protection of your First Amendment rights is the Second Amendment. Once you invalidate the Second Amendment, how long do you think before some bureaucratic genius figures out that all other rights are similarly up for regulation?
Nice try though, everyone.
The American system of government is based off of, among others, John Locke's view of the Social Contract and the State of Nature. In it, society leaves the State of Nature and gives up some freedoms in order to gain security. In this case, society is giving up its freedom to not have its prints and other identifying image in a database (of which I'm not convinced is a freedom anyway....what's to stop someone acting on their own collecting prints and whatnot from trash etc) in order to gain the security of having an advanced tool to find criminals.
Personally, it seems to me this is an obviously fair trade. I lose a freedom that doesn't have much impact on my life in order to have another layer of security against crime.
I can't see where all the 1984 theories are coming from with this. Even the employer contributions, which are completely voluntary, aren't that threatening, even if they were required. There's a big stretch from having your fingerprints on record to having a telescreen in your room watching your every move. Furthermore, as the United States government is a government run by the people. Legislators in favor of an INGSOC based society would have a tough time being elected, especially considering that 218 Representatives and 50 Senators, along with a President would have to be in favor of it at one time. Plus, the Constitution enumerates several rights concerned with privacy (excluding privacy itself, which is arguable) that prevent most imaginable invasions of privacy.
Furthermore, as an immigrant, my prints, face, and soon my retinas will be in government databases already. It hasn't changed my life at all and I've never felt threated by the small red light of the scanner.
If you are going to quote Locke out of context, why don't you go ahead and mention the part where he defends the right - I believe he calls it a duty - to overthrow a government that oversteps its bounds. After all, he wrote his social contract theory to justify the Glorious Revolution.
Also, if you actually read Locke's Two Treatise on Government, you'll realize that the rights he says we give up are those that infringe upon the rights of others. In the State of Nature, we have complete autonomy... since I have the unfettered right to liberty, I could theoretically kill whoever I want. Locke says we create governments to limit that, because if I kill someone I violate their right to life. In Locke's hierarchy (life, liberty, property), your rights end where another's begin. Everything else is yours to keep - even if the government decides it wants to do otherwise.
It'd be neat, you know, if people actually thought before they spoke. Or wrote, in this case.
One more thing: your arguments about the constitution are null and void. What if a President (since the execute can operate in secret under the guise of the Clear and Present Danger Clause, in addition to the PATRIOT Act, NSA security letters, etc.) used this database to systematically hunt and jail dissidents? Or maybe just the key folks, at first.
You think you are safe in the US, read up a bit. The precedence set in Korematsu was upheld by the Supreme Court, which means that the government has the technical authority to round us up and place us in concentration camps, if it wants.
Woot. It's not Big Brother... we could always think Lenin, Saddam, Hitler, etc. Who needs a telescreen when we've got TiVo? No need to even think about the fiction.
ACLU?
OH WAIT! Nevermind, they support those crazy people.
I don't see the point in this from the FBI's perspective. Do murder weapons, burglarized homes, etc. typically only have the suspects fingerprints and palms on them? What about the cashier that touched the hammer before Mr. Smith bashed his wife over the head with it? Is she going to end up in prison because of the irrefutable proof that she was holding the weapon? It seems to me this would produce far too many false negative to be of any use. It gives the feds an easy way to not have to do any investigative legwork.
This isn't going to take more criminals off the street or make anybody easier to "catch," either. Look at the FBI's Most Wanted list. We _know_ who those people are and we still can't catch them. How is DNA/fingerprint analysis going to help with that? It's not.
Besides, what are we going to do with all these fun new criminals we catch anyway? Currently in California prisoners are only serving on average 10% of their sentences anyway due to overcrowding. Catch and Release?
I don't think it's appropriate for the government to collect biometric data on everyone in this country. It's completely counter-productive to crime fighting. Currently we collect biometric data on a person only after they've committed a crime. This makes sense because it keeps the list of possibilities low. If you're searching for one criminal is it easier to search among 500,000 entries or 300,000,000? It makes the crime/terrorism fighting process less efficient. This is an obvious fact, which is why this step is nothing but a tool to draw ALL Americans into scrutiny and surveillance.
If I haven't committed a crime yet, why does the FBI give a damn as to who I am? How does knowing the names, blood type, and eyecolor of Joe Schmoe help the FBI track down a terrorist. It makes no sense. Combine this with the "Prevention of Radical Homegrown Terrorism" act and you've got a government who can arrest you for THINKING differently than the status quo, and knows EVERYTHING about you. Feel safer now? If you do, then you're literally depending on the racism of your government to not target you with these expanded powers.
Furthermore, the FBI IS NOT DEVELOPING THIS SYSTEM. They are contracting the development of this database which means a corporation will actually be making it. This is a sure bet that something fishy is happening because corporations are less vulnerable to public scrutiny and litigation than a government agency. Do you really believe the FBI couldn't take on this project themselves?
This whole arrangement sounds like grade-A bullshit for frightened Americans to trade away more freedom for the illusion of security. Welcome to your new fascist police state.
So a corporation is making this massive database of crap? Well that helps things, they can't even account for weapons. They will think over half of America is criminal if that is the case it is in a private corporation and say, isn't that robbery of your personal property?
I already have an FBI file, nothing new here for me. That's not to say I approve of this at all. Or the FBI for that matter. "That government is best which governs least." The total tonnage of our government ought be quite revealing when held to that statement.
There are still places in this country that are not run by government, although everyday little pieces of them seep away. Sure, they are of course under some jurisdiction, but no agents of the government are ever there in any official role. The people that live in these places are the happiest people I've ever met. I don't mean cheery, perky, bubbly outgoing people, I mean people with real happiness in their hearts. The happiest times in my life have been spent in these places as well.
My argument is not necessarily that all our liberties will be lost, that 1984 will be upon us. I'm not fearful of totalitarian government disappearing people en masse. What I fear is that as our government grows and grows and reaches into every aspect and every inch of our lives and country we will all lose the chance to know the happiness that comes with true freedom, true self determination. That some of you have never, and may never know that is regrettable. I have and every fiber in me does not want to lose it. I pray my children, and their's and so on will have the chance to know it too.
Orwell might become the next Nostrodamus for how well this country is going.
Don't worry guys and girls. We'll all have access to all the info. Just as soon as some "intern" has his/her laptop with the entire database stolen out of his/her civic.
Besides, the FBI already has my fingerprints and DNA. Pretty sure they know what I look like, I'm not too worried.
Ugh. I am moving.
Help =(
this is easy to judge: it's plain and simply wrong to implement this system. I'm amazed that the american public can be this blind. Now our countries must have that awfull shit too.
For the sake of our childrens future, read some Noam Chomsky books and find out what your governtment is doing with your money. Its an absolute disaster.
Is it just a coincidence that this story hits engadget on the same day the gov't reveals J Edgar Hoover's plan to "detain" 12000 Americans during the Korean Conflict?
I have to agree with the poster who commented that the best defense of the First Amendment is the Second Amendment.
That pic reminds me of the commercial "that guy" made in that Futurama episode
(what, no retinal scans?)
Just be thankful they aren't thinking rectal scans! *
There has to be classes on debating such things...I swear there doesn't appears to be a happy medium between security and privacy. The two almost always seem to be mutually exclusive. Personally I'll take the chance of being blown up over the government being able to pinpoint someone in a heartbeat via camera. (You KNOW that such a system will eventually be tied to that.) The reason is simple. Its a hell of a lot easier to recover from a terrorist attack over the loss of freedoms in a country. Frankly its going to take a generation to repair this country. Bush, and understand this IS Bush's fault, has successfully turned many of the people in this country into paranoid psychopaths who believe anything the gov tells them.
I mean really....everyone remember the post 9.11.01 preparedness kit? lets hear it for duct tape! Or the security measures put in place at airports. Never mind the fact that such an act could never happen again now that passengers know that terrorists aren't going to move the plane to the center of a runway and demand something or they will kill everything. Its all or nothing now. And the minute a terrorists tries some shit they will be torn apart on a plane.
Those actions were designed to make you feel better because ever Bush knows that there isn't a damn thing he or anyone else can do to stop a terrorists. Its the placebo effect on a grand scale. Yet people still believe this shit en mass. Fools.
Paranoia or not, invasion of privacy or not... don't you just love America? >.>
Oh, any country outside the U.S. looking for a U.S. citizen, or U.S. refugee, that'd like to escape the country and can house me in a safehouse away from possible surveillance and monitoring by a government entity willing enough to control and invade every part of my life?
I live in California, will relocate soon.
Bah..Bah..Bahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I need bbbbBIG Govvvvvvvvvernment. Gotta keep up with my fellow sheeppppp.
It's so much safer! Come on folks. Surely you know that the US government has your best interests at heart.
Dam those pesky Terrorist's!!!Bah..Bah..Bahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.please excuse now while I go back to reality and snipe some NEWBIE on Halo III. Bahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh NOW I REALLY FEEL SAFE!
THANK YOU NWO!!
You are truly a worthless person.
Ladies and gents, let's think for a moment. This type of thing would be fantastic to help knab your local serial killer (like the guy who just shot and killed a couple in my neck of the woods- thanks Massachusetts for letting out a convicted murderer- Google Daniel Tavares). This will aid against current criminals and terrorists.
Think for a moment. Do you think that any law enforcement agency can just grab you and take a scan of your iris? No. How could they, anyway? There is not enough time, money or agents to do such a thing, let alone a desire from the people who work in Federal law enforcement. So have a little faith, people. I know you all would love to feel so important as to think someone is listening in on your telephone calls, but, really, don't flatter yourself. Federal law enforcement is busy trying to get the absolute worst criminals in our country. They could give a rat's ass about your or your porn collection.
Aside from that, remember a few things...
1. You have a Social Security Number (thanks FDR). Bitch all you want about privacy, but you have a number that the G has been tracking you with since the inception of the SSA. (By the way, so do your banks, cell phone companies and credit card issuers). You want privacy, start talking to your rep about scrapping that number.
2. If you get on the radar screen by committing heinous illegal acts, that is your problem. You should be tracked.
3. Most local, state and Federal agencies already get DNA samples from convicted felons, which is far more accurate that analyzing body movement or iris scans.
4. Don't put too much stock in the Federal government. They managed to miss the Soviet Union collapse and the 9-11 attacks.
You too are truly a worthless person.
The heinous act that put me on the radar was possessing some pot.
Larry, I stick by my original statement. I almost feel like it's a waste to go into greater detail. See I don't think you're worthless because I support the government. I'm not afraid of terrorists, but I'm not afraid of the government either. I'm certainly not afraid of you. But you will never accomplish a damn thing. Go call people sheep all you want, I'm certain it's just you trying to make yourself feel better. You may be trying to convince yourself you don't need, or maybe you don't want a government to run your life or keep you safe. If you have a need to attack others, you have no idea what it is to actually be free. You just want to pretend you're freer than others. And that's why you're worthless. Freedom isn't about freer than, it's a pure state. Oh and the sheep thing is way overdone.
YO BENT...I mean BRENT. Sorry I scared you quivering piece of waste. Go back to the fetal position and STFU!
Wow this is just of as good of an idea as RFID! Just for our government masters to send tazer bots around to patrol our everyday lives. People who love to hack computers, we have a challenge for you.
China is 10 steps ahead of us, for those who think it isn't likely to happen:
http://www.switched.com/2007/08/13/chinese-citizens-getting-tagged-watched/
That's the best source I could find on short notice, but I think Wired... or maybe even Engadget... did an article.
Ah, look we have another brainwashed twat of the current regime! "Brent" Get your facts straight.
WTF are you talking about? I have no support for any of this crap. You're the one apparently working off of no facts. I disliked the comment by the guy supporting this crap. I also disliked the sheep comment. I think it makes no point.
I will continue to live my life as I choose. I will never allow a government to run my life. I'm all for taking the whole thing apart. But I'm not going to sit around and wait for it to happen to be free. I'm not going to bitch and complain about it in hopes that it will miraculously change something.
So let me ask you, what have you done to promote freedom in this country? How free do you live your life? Or are you just another all talk no action guy?
I know it's sort of funny to joke about 1984 and stuff, but really, it's gone overboard.
They've been talking about a national finger print database for years. And really, it makes sense. There have been a number of murder investigations that could have benefited from this concept if it had been introduced earlier.
The fact that they are talking about a national database has nothing to do with some sort of Government control conspiracy idea. It just means that there won't be as many ridiculous jurisdictional issues.
I think sometimes people take the whole "OMG THE GOVERNMENT WILL CONTROL OUR LIVES!!" thing way too far. We're nowhere near that point and making that implication of a national finger print database only demonstrates an unfortunate alarmist attitude.
I'm curious as to what, exactly, most of you think a law enforcement agency does? Except, obviously, piss you off for taking your pot... The NGI program has ben gearing up for a while now, but really, if you did any homework at all, you'd know that there are several other major biometric/biographic databases already fully in use and effectively helping law enforcement both domestically and abroad in both the DOJ and DHS sectors.
I'm really at a loss to see how you truly feel that the just because the goverment has your fingerprints in a database somewhere that's more of an infringement on your rights than the fact that stores like Wal-mart and Target (and almost every other retail outlet) track everything you purchase, websites adjust ads to you specifically, and Amazon tells you what you want to buy.
Just so you understand, if a potential employer does a background check through one of these government systems, they are receiving back very limited information on you. Most law enforcement officials who do a check get back very limited data as well. It's not big brother as much as you want to believe it is, it's simply a check to see if you might be a criminal threat most of the time.
You want something more intrusive, how about the fact that potential employers--and I mean private sector--do a credit check on you automatically, which can pose far more of a threat to your personal liberties.
Another issue is the idea that America is a police state, or about to be because of this... Go to England, and then see how you feel. Cameras everywhere, and no public privacy whatsoever. Most of Europe is either like this or moving toward it. The US is still the most free and open place to live in the western world. And being able to bitch and moan about how it isn't is one of the greatest examples of what a good it is place to live.
There will always be examples of people who end up in lists and databases that probably don't fit the profile of what it was intended for. Still, I'll take the unfortunate addition of a kid who was thrown in jail just for getting a blowjob to the sex offenders list if it means that most of the other names on the list are sick bastards who deserved to be watched. Although, in reality, they aren't watched nearly as closely as they should be. And most of the population isn't watched either.
You are in the system from the day you're born with a SSN, but as someone rightly pointed out, we give away most of the truly personal data about ourselves on the internet for whatever reason. While you worry about law enforcement having your prints, Amazon and Wal-Mart already know far more about you than our government ever will.
We Need A Revolution Against This Corrupt Government!