Leopard better than Vista? Clearly the old idiot has never really used Leopard. The latter is at best just like Vista, problems with software, drivers and hardware. Like Vista it has a lot of flash for no good reason. Leopard steals from Vista that stole from OSX. As for the computer the Dell is vastly superior as the customer can easily gain access for upgrades of RAM, Hard Drive, Optical drive. It's also a better design than the new iMac which looks like it came from Dell last century. Strange how Apple's design all looks the same and that design now looks like bad Wintel designs of the late 90's. Mossberg is one of the biggest Apple fools out there. Him an Pogue make a cluster f**K of hype for the worst consumers electronics company in the world. Anyone who really uses Apple products know they break, OSX is a slug and customer care is a joke. The Apple stores are the Gap of our new Century. The same look all year round.
Given that I use Leopard and Vista every single day, I have to say Leopard is far better than Vista. Leopard does have plenty of bugs or annoyances, but Vista has a ton more.
The XPS One is quite nice, but I'd have to go with the iMac over it. And you can upgrade the RAM and HDD in the iMac quite easily.
You won't find anyone in their right mind not agreeing with the fact that Mossberg is a fool. It is important to know what he thinks, because, inexplicably, his opinion is important to the great masses, but it must be taken in every "review" that he writes, that he is a complete and utter idiot.
Ah, but you forget, Apple made Leopard. NO MATTER WHAT, anything by Apple is better than anything Microsoft made. Apparently, that is some kind of rule on the internet. Apple can overcharge for their products, make them out of cheaper products, and continuously screw over its customers, but it's still better.
Wow, that all sounds so good. I wonder why I'm not using a Mac?
@ David We are on engadget so I probably shouldn't bother, but I can't help myself. Reading some random person on the internet say "they both have bugs but vista has way more. I use both everyday" is silly. You haven't given context or details of your statement. Most Vista bugs I run into are Driver related. They exist way more than I'd like but on a machine with good Vista drivers, I see very few 'bugs'. Perhaps you mean more conceptual design flaws? I don't know. But seriously, you don't seem like a troll, so try to be a leader and raise the quality level of engadet posts. Details, details, details. I can easily say Leopard has way more bugs than Vista. But that statement is vague and provides so little to the conversation that it wouldn't be worth posting.
And my response has nothing to do with which OS I prefer (because I’m not overly thrilled with either’s GUI or speed)
@ Dragod: Why is it impossible for you to accept the possibility that Leopard might be better than Vista? How is Apple overcharging for Leopard when 1) it comes on all Macs for free, 2) it's not serialized, 3) it's cheaper than Vista, and feature-wise it's comparable to Vista Ultimate because there's only one version of Leopard, not 6. Unless you're counting Leopard Server, which is only a bit more expensive than Vista Ultimate, and it serves unlimited clients.
How is Apple continuously screwing its customers over? It sounds like you're just talking out of your ass.
Getting away from OS wars, the hardware on the iMac is superior for the person who is looking for the cheapest an all-in-one, and doesn't need a TV tuner.
It's not a comparison of the same price points, but a comparison of the cheapest possible. The iMac comes out to the best deal because it has dedicated graphics for the lowest end model. The bigger HDD in the Gateway is overkill most of the time, and 1GB RAM costs ~$40.
If you upgraded the RAM on the iMac and bought a copy of Vista Premium (OEM), it would still be a better deal than the Ones.
The OSX is not only complicated, and there is approximately 1000000000x less software available for it than for the PC, the OSX 10.5, for fact has issues and it is fashion, and nothing else. In 10 years, apple will be known as company that used to produce software. Oh wait, even today, apple is a big mp3 player producer, that used to make software nobody uses with a market share that is a joke.
As someone who uses both Leopard and Vista, I find Leopard the less-frustrating of the two. HOWEVER, this isn't to say that Vista is unusable.
Gaming, media stuff, Vista handles it great. I haven't even had many driver issues, and most of those have been quickly cleared up. But I find that Vista's performance (especially on network file operations, and indeed on some network operations in general) seems absymally slow compared to even XP on the same machine.
But running Windows Update... it should not take 7+ minutes of searching to determine if there are any applicable updates, when XP can perform the check in about a minute. It should not take a third again as long to copy a file between two local drives as it does on XP. Things like that. Nothing deal-breaking, but enough to periodically frustrate and annoy me.
This isn't to say Leopard's perfect either, just that I find Leopard's imperfections are generally less-intrusive to me, at least in my personal style of computing. Everyone uses computers slightly differently, however, so the quirks of one operating system may be a great deal more annoying to one person than another.
"Leopard better than Vista? Clearly the old idiot has never really used Leopard. The latter is at best just like Vista, problems with software, drivers and hardware."
I've not used Vista and have no plan to use Vista, but only a few days ago did I use Leopard because I've heard almost nothing but praise towards it. I can't say the same about Vista, which is why I will never use it other than when I pass by a laptop in some computer store, give into my nerdy temptations and have a short play with it. So what if they both have bugs? From what I know, Vista has had big bugs for almost a year with no significant update to address them, and Leopard's second major OS update is already being seeded to developers just months after release. To be honest, it seems like Leopard is going to be working perfectly before Vista is.
"Like Vista it has a lot of flash for no good reason."
Maybe in terms of the dock (which can be turned off in the terminal or altered with apps like Candybar) and menu bar at the top (which actually lets you show more of your desktop background off). Apart from that, I beg to differ. The "Flash" Leopard offers takes commercial OSes nearer to those you see in sci-fi films. Core Animation lets you have beautiful transitional elements in your apps, which is something you won't get in Vista. Even if not all Leopard apps take advantage of Core Animation, it's there so in several years time, the developers can build backwards compatible apps that use core animation without worrying that their beautiful app won't be beautiful in a version of OSX from several years back.
"Leopard steals from Vista that stole from OSX."
Leopard is OSX, dummy :P
"As for the computer the Dell is vastly superior as the customer can easily gain access for upgrades of RAM, Hard Drive, Optical drive. It's also a better design than the new iMac which looks like it came from Dell last century."
I can easily gain access to upgrade the RAM or HDD in my iMac (RAM more so). All I do is lay it down and turn a screw. Not exactly difficult. The HDD is more difficult since you have to take the screen off, but for myself, I ordered my iMac with a 500GB hard drive, so no worries there. There was even the option for 1TB and it's not like External Hard Drives are unheard of. Any non-techy person could easily get one of those instead. It's probably not like they've got anything better to put into their FireWire 800 socket.
"Strange how Apple's design all looks the same and that design now looks like bad Wintel designs of the late 90's."
I don't know which part of the 90s you're thinking about...
"Mossberg is one of the biggest Apple fools out there. Him an Pogue make a cluster f**K of hype for the worst consumers electronics company in the world."
I can see you aren't referring to Apple, there. They aren't the best but they certainly aren't the worst :P
"Anyone who really uses Apple products know they break,"
Yes. They do. My Mighty Mouse's scroll ball got all clogged up... then I got a new one for free from Apple. My replacement is starting to get all cloggy too and I could easily ring up Apple care to get a new one... but since they'll probably have an update in January, may as well wait until then.
"OSX is a slug"
Compared to what? Certainly not Windows :P
"and customer care is a joke."
Maybe in America, but when I called Apple care UK, they were friendly, quick and reliable.
"The Apple stores are the Gap of our new Century. The same look all year round."
Uhhh because most stores are constantly changing? My local PC World hasn't had an interior redesign since... well.. they haven't. Nor have my local Argos, Currys, Comet, etc. which all sell consumer and pro electronics too. Apple stores are the same principal, yet they look so much better than these clunky big warehouses that house PCs.
@pro7: What software? Office suite: MS Office, iWork, NeoOffice Web browsers: Safari, Firefox, Opera Movies: iMovie, FCE, FCP, Premiere Photos: iPhoto, Aperture, Lightroom Music playback: iTunes, VLC, etc. Music authoring: GarageBand, Audacity Chat: iChat, Adium
I really can't think of any software that the Mac OS doesn't have or doesn't have an equivalent for.
More complicated is a matter of what a person is used to using. Everyone has a preference.
P.S. - Macs aren't built for gaming, period. They aren't targeting that relatively small market.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
peternj @ Dec 27th 2007 11:44AM
Leopard better than Vista? Clearly the old idiot has never really used Leopard. The latter is at best just like Vista, problems with software, drivers and hardware. Like Vista it has a lot of flash for no good reason. Leopard steals from Vista that stole from OSX.
As for the computer the Dell is vastly superior as the customer can easily gain access for upgrades of RAM, Hard Drive, Optical drive. It's also a better design than the new iMac which looks like it came from Dell last century.
Strange how Apple's design all looks the same and that design now looks like bad Wintel designs of the late 90's.
Mossberg is one of the biggest Apple fools out there. Him an Pogue make a cluster f**K of hype for the worst consumers electronics company in the world. Anyone who really uses Apple products know they break, OSX is a slug and customer care is a joke. The Apple stores are the Gap of our new Century. The same look all year round.
David @ Dec 27th 2007 12:10PM
Given that I use Leopard and Vista every single day, I have to say Leopard is far better than Vista. Leopard does have plenty of bugs or annoyances, but Vista has a ton more.
The XPS One is quite nice, but I'd have to go with the iMac over it. And you can upgrade the RAM and HDD in the iMac quite easily.
mingistech @ Dec 27th 2007 12:25PM
David is right.... I upgraded my 24 inch iMac to a 1TB drive and 4GB of RAM. No problems at all.... just a few screws.
Funny how a few years ago I had to spend 3 times as much for a pro machine and now the iMac has the balls for 3d video compositing.
Joey Geraci @ Dec 27th 2007 12:43PM
You won't find anyone in their right mind not agreeing with the fact that Mossberg is a fool. It is important to know what he thinks, because, inexplicably, his opinion is important to the great masses, but it must be taken in every "review" that he writes, that he is a complete and utter idiot.
Bob @ Dec 27th 2007 12:58PM
Didn't take long for Engadget's biggest Apple hater to chime in...
roole @ Dec 27th 2007 1:00PM
@Joey: Instead of a an epithet-laden rant, could you please be specific and back up why you think that person is a 'fool,' 'idiot,' etc?
I.e., advance the conversation?
Dylan K @ Dec 27th 2007 1:02PM
Since you guys have so many problems with Vista, maybe you'd like to lend me some of them so I can experience it, because I never have.
Dragod @ Dec 27th 2007 1:03PM
Ah, but you forget, Apple made Leopard. NO MATTER WHAT, anything by Apple is better than anything Microsoft made. Apparently, that is some kind of rule on the internet. Apple can overcharge for their products, make them out of cheaper products, and continuously screw over its customers, but it's still better.
Wow, that all sounds so good. I wonder why I'm not using a Mac?
Jesus @ Dec 27th 2007 1:20PM
@ David
We are on engadget so I probably shouldn't bother, but I can't help myself. Reading some random person on the internet say "they both have bugs but vista has way more. I use both everyday" is silly. You haven't given context or details of your statement. Most Vista bugs I run into are Driver related. They exist way more than I'd like but on a machine with good Vista drivers, I see very few 'bugs'. Perhaps you mean more conceptual design flaws? I don't know. But seriously, you don't seem like a troll, so try to be a leader and raise the quality level of engadet posts. Details, details, details. I can easily say Leopard has way more bugs than Vista. But that statement is vague and provides so little to the conversation that it wouldn't be worth posting.
And my response has nothing to do with which OS I prefer (because I’m not overly thrilled with either’s GUI or speed)
Ethan @ Dec 27th 2007 1:27PM
Some of us prefer Vista.
Zak @ Dec 27th 2007 1:29PM
@ Dragod: Why is it impossible for you to accept the possibility that Leopard might be better than Vista? How is Apple overcharging for Leopard when 1) it comes on all Macs for free, 2) it's not serialized, 3) it's cheaper than Vista, and feature-wise it's comparable to Vista Ultimate because there's only one version of Leopard, not 6. Unless you're counting Leopard Server, which is only a bit more expensive than Vista Ultimate, and it serves unlimited clients.
How is Apple continuously screwing its customers over? It sounds like you're just talking out of your ass.
perfectionist @ Dec 27th 2007 1:57PM
Getting away from OS wars, the hardware on the iMac is superior for the person who is looking for the cheapest an all-in-one, and doesn't need a TV tuner.
Let's compare the lowest-end models.
$1200 iMac
- 20" LCD display
- 2.0GHz C2D with 4MB L2 cache
- 1GB RAM
- 250GB HDD
- 128MB VRAM (ATI Radeon HD2400XT)
$1300 Gateway One
- 19" LCD display
- 1.5GHz C2D with 2MB L2 cache
- 2GB RAM
- 320GB HDD
- Integrated graphics
$1400 Dell XPS One
- 20" LCD display
- 2.2GHz C2D with 2MB L2 cache
- 2GB RAM
- 250GB HDD
- Integrated graphics
It's not a comparison of the same price points, but a comparison of the cheapest possible. The iMac comes out to the best deal because it has dedicated graphics for the lowest end model. The bigger HDD in the Gateway is overkill most of the time, and 1GB RAM costs ~$40.
If you upgraded the RAM on the iMac and bought a copy of Vista Premium (OEM), it would still be a better deal than the Ones.
Pro7 @ Dec 27th 2007 2:33PM
The OSX is not only complicated, and there is approximately 1000000000x less software available for it than for the PC, the OSX 10.5, for fact has issues and it is fashion, and nothing else. In 10 years, apple will be known as company that used to produce software. Oh wait, even today, apple is a big mp3 player producer, that used to make software nobody uses with a market share that is a joke.
Sparks @ Dec 27th 2007 2:57PM
As someone who uses both Leopard and Vista, I find Leopard the less-frustrating of the two. HOWEVER, this isn't to say that Vista is unusable.
Gaming, media stuff, Vista handles it great. I haven't even had many driver issues, and most of those have been quickly cleared up. But I find that Vista's performance (especially on network file operations, and indeed on some network operations in general) seems absymally slow compared to even XP on the same machine.
But running Windows Update... it should not take 7+ minutes of searching to determine if there are any applicable updates, when XP can perform the check in about a minute. It should not take a third again as long to copy a file between two local drives as it does on XP. Things like that. Nothing deal-breaking, but enough to periodically frustrate and annoy me.
This isn't to say Leopard's perfect either, just that I find Leopard's imperfections are generally less-intrusive to me, at least in my personal style of computing. Everyone uses computers slightly differently, however, so the quirks of one operating system may be a great deal more annoying to one person than another.
So, YMMV.
blaktornado @ Dec 27th 2007 5:29PM
"Leopard better than Vista? Clearly the old idiot has never really used Leopard. The latter is at best just like Vista, problems with software, drivers and hardware."
I've not used Vista and have no plan to use Vista, but only a few days ago did I use Leopard because I've heard almost nothing but praise towards it. I can't say the same about Vista, which is why I will never use it other than when I pass by a laptop in some computer store, give into my nerdy temptations and have a short play with it. So what if they both have bugs? From what I know, Vista has had big bugs for almost a year with no significant update to address them, and Leopard's second major OS update is already being seeded to developers just months after release. To be honest, it seems like Leopard is going to be working perfectly before Vista is.
"Like Vista it has a lot of flash for no good reason."
Maybe in terms of the dock (which can be turned off in the terminal or altered with apps like Candybar) and menu bar at the top (which actually lets you show more of your desktop background off). Apart from that, I beg to differ. The "Flash" Leopard offers takes commercial OSes nearer to those you see in sci-fi films. Core Animation lets you have beautiful transitional elements in your apps, which is something you won't get in Vista. Even if not all Leopard apps take advantage of Core Animation, it's there so in several years time, the developers can build backwards compatible apps that use core animation without worrying that their beautiful app won't be beautiful in a version of OSX from several years back.
"Leopard steals from Vista that stole from OSX."
Leopard is OSX, dummy :P
"As for the computer the Dell is vastly superior as the customer can easily gain access for upgrades of RAM, Hard Drive, Optical drive. It's also a better design than the new iMac which looks like it came from Dell last century."
I can easily gain access to upgrade the RAM or HDD in my iMac (RAM more so). All I do is lay it down and turn a screw. Not exactly difficult. The HDD is more difficult since you have to take the screen off, but for myself, I ordered my iMac with a 500GB hard drive, so no worries there. There was even the option for 1TB and it's not like External Hard Drives are unheard of. Any non-techy person could easily get one of those instead. It's probably not like they've got anything better to put into their FireWire 800 socket.
"Strange how Apple's design all looks the same and that design now looks like bad Wintel designs of the late 90's."
I don't know which part of the 90s you're thinking about...
"Mossberg is one of the biggest Apple fools out there. Him an Pogue make a cluster f**K of hype for the worst consumers electronics company in the world."
I can see you aren't referring to Apple, there. They aren't the best but they certainly aren't the worst :P
"Anyone who really uses Apple products know they break,"
Yes. They do. My Mighty Mouse's scroll ball got all clogged up... then I got a new one for free from Apple. My replacement is starting to get all cloggy too and I could easily ring up Apple care to get a new one... but since they'll probably have an update in January, may as well wait until then.
"OSX is a slug"
Compared to what? Certainly not Windows :P
"and customer care is a joke."
Maybe in America, but when I called Apple care UK, they were friendly, quick and reliable.
"The Apple stores are the Gap of our new Century. The same look all year round."
Uhhh because most stores are constantly changing? My local PC World hasn't had an interior redesign since... well.. they haven't. Nor have my local Argos, Currys, Comet, etc. which all sell consumer and pro electronics too. Apple stores are the same principal, yet they look so much better than these clunky big warehouses that house PCs.
perfectionist @ Dec 27th 2007 4:17PM
@pro7:
What software?
Office suite: MS Office, iWork, NeoOffice
Web browsers: Safari, Firefox, Opera
Movies: iMovie, FCE, FCP, Premiere
Photos: iPhoto, Aperture, Lightroom
Music playback: iTunes, VLC, etc.
Music authoring: GarageBand, Audacity
Chat: iChat, Adium
I really can't think of any software that the Mac OS doesn't have or doesn't have an equivalent for.
More complicated is a matter of what a person is used to using. Everyone has a preference.
P.S. - Macs aren't built for gaming, period. They aren't targeting that relatively small market.