In a press release, the HD DVD Group is rallying the demoralized troops around the accomplishments made in 2007. Citing almost one million players in North America and a good (by HDM standards) library of titles, 2007 was a good year for the red camp. There's the requisite cherry picking of factoids, but the release does play to HD DVD's strengths of affordability and interactive features. We're glad to see HD DVD put on a brave face; and as we've said, HD DVD has been declared "dead" before. Maybe this is sign that team red has shaken off the cobwebs from this week's blows. The real test will be if HD DVD will be able to generate some more forward-looking optimism.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Chebwa @ Jan 7th 2008 11:16AM
C'mon, man. You can't still be holding out hope for these guys. They've been declared "dying" before. This is the first time they've actually been dead.
It's all over, people. Nothing more to see here.
David @ Jan 7th 2008 11:26AM
Please someone win already. I don't care who, I just want to see a clear winner!
kuromiko @ Jan 7th 2008 11:42AM
@Chebwa
Agreed. With the mass majority of the content going to Blu, theres no reason to assume HD-DVD will be going anywhere in the future. If you're going to announce anything, apologize for the consumer confusion and inconvenience you have caused and express your regret for not having merged the formats early in the game (not that that is only HD DVD's fault, mind you). It is time to move on to migrating from DVD up, not continuing a format war that isn't going anywhere.
SJT @ Jan 7th 2008 11:56AM
Apologize? Wouldn't there be a lot less people even into HDM if it were not for the reasonable costs associated with getting into HD DVD? I've always known I'd also eventually be getting a BD player, but if HD DVD had not existed many of us would have been forced to wait until late 2008 or early 2009 to be able to finally have a dedicated HD movie source for our displays. I think this is similar to why Toshiba believes their product was still the more customer-centric. If HD DVD ceased to exist today, do you expect there to be a surge in BD player sales? Overall, I think you would see less adoption of HDM more than anything, since so many who don't want to pay the higher prices will just have to wait for them to come down. I think HD DVD offered HDM now to a lot of ppl, rather than later. As I said before, I knew I would eventually get a BD player, but now I am forced to have nothing until players cost much less, and hopefully when they are full featured.
Chebwa @ Jan 7th 2008 12:05PM
"As I said before, I knew I would eventually get a BD player, but now I am forced to have nothing until players cost much less, and hopefully when they are full featured."
What the hell kind of a price point are you looking for when it comes to relatively new technology? The BDP7200 is $350. Or you could get an older PS3 model (20GB) on eBay for as low as $300. And nobody is forcing you to wait. You want new technology, you pay for it. That's how it is now and how it will continue to be. If you want it cheap, wait. Normal DVDs don't look THAT BAD, you know. Nobody is putting a gun to your head to invest immediately.
Thank God HD-DVD is dead, it was a pain in the ass to say out loud anyway.
SJT @ Jan 7th 2008 12:28PM
Ugh... you talk as if Blu-Ray should cost as much because it is state-of-the-art. They are BOTH relatively new technology. One became more affordable much faster. You only reiterated the fact that people have to pay more or wait.
chris fredette @ Jan 7th 2008 12:47PM
I have both players and I think HD-DVD is better. I even have a HD-A3 1080i and I think movies look better on my 56" 1080p TV than with, say, the PS3.
Unless you have both you can shut the hell up.
As far as I can tell the only people who like Blu-ray are people who own a PS3, and since I own one I can say it is a mediocre gaming platform(as compared to the other choices) and a OK Blu-ray player.
Personally I like convince/quality combination of the xbox downloads over both disc's. Physical media is so yesterday. If either format dies I wouldn't loose sleep but I think HD-DVD is the better all around product with out getting into details; which I could.
Chebwa @ Jan 7th 2008 12:51PM
"Unless you have both you can shut the hell up."
lol so unless we like throwing our money away, we need to keep our mouths shut
Got it.
David @ Jan 8th 2008 11:05PM
at 250$, you're getting a blu ray player running profile 0... no PiP, no web connectivity, etc.
wickedpheonix @ Jan 7th 2008 11:17AM
I like to think of it this way - Blu-Ray has been declared dead before, it's just a matter of making it happen again.
Flashpoint @ Jan 7th 2008 11:27AM
The only people who declared Blu-Ray dead are Anti-SONY, anti-Blu Ray, pro- Microsoft, Pro HDDVD, FANBOYS who weren't smart enough to predict that HDDVD was going to be the next "betamax" due to its
#1 smaller capactity
#2 lack of support (by more than Microsoft, NEC and Toshiba and a couple others)
#3 the fact PS3's would inevitably put BR players in more homes than 360's add on drive (which cost almost 48% of the PS3's msrp at its introduction)
HDDVD was dead on arrival. Once Warner, APPLE and SONY decided on Blue Ray, HDDVD was basically attacked, CHAINSAWED IN HALF and left for pigeon food.
matt @ Jan 7th 2008 12:20PM
@Flashpoint, you forgot a few:
#4 optional DRM
#5 finished spec
#6 cheaper to produce
#7 better image quality despite lower capacity
yeah, HD-DVD is sooooooo terrible. Outside of higher capacity what exactly makes BluRay better than HD-DVD?
Jason M @ Jan 7th 2008 12:29PM
Matt - HD-DVD technology DOES NOT have a better picture than Blu-ray. That's an ignorant statement. Some studios started using different codecs between the two at one point but that has nothing to do with the technology of the players.
your_boring@hotmail.com @ Jan 7th 2008 12:41PM
umm.. flashpoint
betamax actualy held more data than VHS
all the tv stations used betamax to store their recordings because its a better format
wickedpheonix @ Jan 7th 2008 1:23PM
@ flashpoint:
I love comments like yours - flaming fanboys where by the very nature of your comment it is obvious that you are, in fact, a fanboy.
1) Smaller capacity does not matter for films. It POTENTIALLY matters for games, where developers can put more content in a game, but not for movies. If you put yourself in the shoes of an ignorant consumer who walks into a store that features HD-DVD and Blu-Ray equally on the same display then they will see that there is no to virtually no difference between the formats in both audio and visual quality.
2) HD-DVD had a lot more support in the beginning when many of the studios had not gone Blu-Ray exclusive yet, namely, Fox and Warner. Toshiba had a very large retail prescence with its Qosmio PC's and the HD-DVD moniker was everywhere. It is only is recent weeks that such support has started to wane - meaning, it was impossible to see this back in the first days of the format war.
3) When the PS3 came out it sold EXTREMELY poorly - I can barely mention the large numbers of PS3's that were on eBay as a result of people wishing to make a quick profit. If anything, it looked like the PS3 would be a small factor in Blu-Ray penetration.
Don't forget that not everyone uses a PS3 to play Blu-Ray movies - there was a study a couple months ago that stated that nearly half of all PS3 owners didn't know that the PS3 was HD, let alone had a Blu-Ray drive - something not helped by the fact that (I don't remember exactly) most if not all PS3's do not include the necessary cables for an HD signal out of the box.
kthxbai.
JTM @ Jan 7th 2008 1:54PM
@wickedpheonix
You are wrong about capacity. The extra capacity means I get to watch all the extras in glorious 1080p vs the 480i that would fit on the HD-DVD.
wickedpheonix @ Jan 7th 2008 3:02PM
@ JTM
Well I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this then: very few special features are really worth it to me. Last time I had a movie that I liked the special features on was the complete Star Wars collection - for every other movie I really couldn't care less, and that means a bit considering the fact that I have the entire LOTR series extended editions among many others. In that case, I would rather the producers cram more special content in there because if there's more in there, then there's a greater possibility that there's going to be something that I actually like.
Furthermore, not all content will be benefited by 1080p - primary example will be unfinished footage (deleted scenes) that's included with the movie - the picture quality is usually crap either way.
aaron @ Jan 7th 2008 11:17AM
Go back to sleep HD DVD...a deep eternal sleep.
your_boring@hotmail.com @ Jan 7th 2008 12:49PM
i hate to remind you folks that the betamax - VHS format war went of for nearly a decade
im willing to bet that we will be talking about both formats same time next year... in a very similar fashion
as we did last year..
and the year before...
JTM @ Jan 7th 2008 1:57PM
your_boring@hotmail.com
That war also happened before The Web was created. Technology moves faster as time goes on and especially now that people are better informed about technology (by virtue of the web) there's no way this war will last a decade.
Jeremy @ Jan 7th 2008 11:20AM
I'm at the point I don't care who wins, just give me a definitive format so I can buy a player.
Chebwa @ Jan 7th 2008 2:32PM
Seriously dude... go get a Blu-Ray player.
Milachy @ Jan 7th 2008 11:21AM
The Dead Collector: Bring out yer dead.
[a man puts a body on the cart]
Large Man with Dead Body: Here's one.
The Dead Collector: That'll be ninepence.
Toshiba: I'm not dead.
The Dead Collector: What?
Large Man with Dead Body: Nothing. There's your ninepence.
Toshiba: I'm not dead.
The Dead Collector: 'Ere, he says he's not dead.
Large Man with Dead Body: Yes he is.
Toshiba: I'm not.
The Dead Collector: He isn't.
Large Man with Dead Body: Well, he will be soon, he's very ill.
Toshiba: I'm getting better.
Large Man with Dead Body: No you're not, you'll be stone dead in a moment.
The Dead Collector: Well, I can't take him like that. It's against regulations.
Toshiba: I don't want to go to 2008 CES.
Large Man with Dead Body: Oh, don't be such a baby.
The Dead Collector: I can't take him.
Toshiba: I feel fine.
Large Man with Dead Body: Oh, do me a favor.
The Dead Collector: I can't.
Large Man with Dead Body: Well, can you hang around for a couple of
minutes?He won't be long.
Jeff @ Jan 7th 2008 11:21AM
"We're glad to see HD DVD put on a brave face"
Why are some people happy to see this format war continue?
It's hypocritical. Most of the people who say they want the format war to end seem to mean they want it to end on their terms, ie. their chosen side wins. As soon as it becomes clear that the other guys have the upper hand, they want to prolong it as long as possible.
The war needs to end and for all intents and purposes, it has. All these press releases from the HD-DVD group remind me of what I see from DCC just before that format was killed. You can expect to see positive releases from the HD-DVD group until literally the day before they pull the plug, so I don't see this bit of PR as anything other than what it is: desperation.
The plug will be pulled sometime in 2008.
Steve @ Jan 7th 2008 12:38PM
"Toshiba: I don't want to go to 2008 CES.
Large Man with Dead Body: Oh, don't be such a baby."
Funniest post EVAR!
BigDave @ Jan 7th 2008 7:36PM
ROFL Damn, Thank you for this. That was great!!!
Let's make it clear. Everyone who thinks that HD-DVD still has a chance, after warner left, after the news media as a whole declared that a crushing blow, after they cancelled the HD-DVD press conference yesterday, after microsoft didn't say ANYTHING about hd-dvd in their own conference... Well guess what, You are an IDIOT if you still think there is a chance.
All the HDDVD guys bitch about a complete profile spec, but then they say they don't need the extra room of a bluray because they don't watch special features... WHICH IS THE ONLY THING YOU GAIN FROM THE 1.1 and 2.0 profiles!!
Or they complain that the PS3 player is useless because it doesn't have an IR remote? grow up, use the very nice BT remote. Anyone who has been on the sidelines waiting, go buy a PS3. You are guaranteed to have a great movie and gaming experience. It will be worth the money, and it won't be ditched by all sides on the format, now a sure thing...
your_boring@hotmail.com @ Jan 7th 2008 12:39PM
"The plug will be pulled sometime in 2008."
stop press :|
Andrew @ Jan 7th 2008 11:30AM
I still enjoy watching my HD-DVDs :)
warlock7 @ Jan 7th 2008 10:35PM
And I still like watching my LaserDiscs... :)
ericdano @ Jan 7th 2008 11:31AM
But we know the Blues were way cooler. They had Caboose, Church, and Tucker. Plus Tex. True, the Reds had Sarge, Simons 2.0, Donut and Grif. Plus, sorta, Lopez and Sister. But the Blues were way more funny.
riggs @ Jan 7th 2008 12:43PM
you win. perfect.
rv @ Jan 7th 2008 1:46PM
its a legitimate strategy!
Rob @ Jan 7th 2008 11:38AM
Without the support of Warner, or any additional major studio, Toshiba's HD-DVD is dead. Let's face it, what good is a player without content? Toshiba should step aside gracefully while they still have a positive image with their customers. Thank them for their support and invite them to join them with the winning format Blu-Ray. That's is. Cut the bs and attacks.
And to those that claim that once Blu-Ray takes over prices for media and players are going to go up without competition, they're being ignorant. HD has a bigger competition than HD-DVD, it has SD-DVD. And, as long as people don't upgrade to to HDTV, they won't go for HD content. Because you can't tell the difference on SD-TV sets. As a matter of fact, I've bought Blu-Ray movies cheaper than their SD-DVD versions. Also, some people are willing to settle with just upconverting their SD-DVDs.
Nate @ Jan 7th 2008 4:07PM
Both Paramount and Universal are still HD DVD Exclusive.
Rob @ Jan 7th 2008 4:42PM
Nate, so what? No offense, but Universal and Paramount haven't been bombarding us with titles at the level Disney, Sony/Columbia, and WB have. Sure they had good number with Bourne and Transformers. But that's it. Other than that, the one who's been laughing their way to the bank has been Warner because they made money from both formats.
If Toshiba continues the war under the impression that Universal and Paramount are going to keep the format alive, then they're idiots. The reality is that if WB had gone Red, then Blu would've been in a tight spot too. Granted not as bad as the one HD-DVD finds itself in right now. Nothing against HD-DVD and its followers. And although I'm a big Blu-Ray fan, and considered purple, I couldn't convince myself that it was ok to go ahead and spend over $200 on an additional player.
Nate @ Jan 7th 2008 9:02PM
I said this because the first paragraph of your fanboy rant was based on facts that are not true, that is all.
Rob.L. @ Jan 7th 2008 11:46AM
Is there a link to the press release?
Harrison @ Jan 7th 2008 11:53AM
While Warner Bros. has chosen Blu, there is still the issue of price-point for the average consumer. Let's face it: most people cannot afford to purchase a Blu-Ray player, even for the lowest price of around $400 USD (40GB Playstation 3). HD-DVD is far cheaper, and is backed by higher quality movie makers. Ask yourself what you would rather buy. Sony-backed mainstream crap (i.e. Ghost Rider and Fantastic 4 - pfft), or quality films (i.e. The Departed, Blade Runner) that are going high-def in favor of Microsoft. I own an HD-DVD player, and I am totally content with the movie selection. Blu-Ray features weak films without as many special features, and at a higher price. I don't think it will take long for Warner and the other major Blu-backing movie names to realize no one is buying their players.
In all, I'm just sorely disappointed at the lack of integrity shown by these major movie outfits to back the more consumer-friendly brand of next generation media.
*sigh*
SJT @ Jan 7th 2008 12:05PM
I agree. Warner claims it was helping the consumer out by doing this. It would have been okay if they had done this later one when costs were not such a big issue for people. It is terrible that they did it now, right after the holiday season of great HDM adoption. Warner's timing is almost indicative of wanting to cripple both HD DVD and Toshiba for all the other CE companies and studios, eliminating choice.
Joe @ Jan 7th 2008 12:15PM
"While Warner Bros. has chosen Blu, there is still the issue of price-point for the average consumer. Let's face it: most people cannot afford to purchase a Blu-Ray player, even for the lowest price of around $400 USD (40GB Playstation 3). HD-DVD is far cheaper, and is backed by higher quality movie makers."
You're forgetting that the price introduces perceived value. Consumers look and see HD-DVD selling for $200, and Blu-Ray selling for $400. They know the two are competing formats. They know that one will die, just like VHS vs. Beta. They hear "HD-DVD is dying!" and they look at the prices, and they believe it - why else would there be such a price difference? One must be obsolete.
Ignore the facts here - facts don't drive sales, marketing drives sales.
"Ask yourself what you would rather buy. Sony-backed mainstream crap (i.e. Ghost Rider and Fantastic 4 - pfft), or quality films (i.e. The Departed, Blade Runner) that are going high-def in favor of Microsoft."
Your argument really fell apart here. You just isolated yourself from everyone who doesn't love sci-fi.
And don't forget, Blu-Ray prices will come down. More titles will come to Blu-Ray (or HD-DVD if they do win this format war). It's extremely likely that one of these will replace DVDs. Of course, it's also extremely likely that the market will be much different when this generation is at the same maturity level that DVD is at right now.
Joe @ Jan 7th 2008 12:21PM
"Ignore the facts here - facts don't drive sales, marketing drives sales."
I should clarify that - People don't buy products based on facts, they buy based on emotion and perceived value which comes from marketing. It doesn't matter which format is technically superior, or has a better value (today).
rip @ Jan 7th 2008 3:29PM
Umm, just so you know, both Blade Runner and The Departed are available on Blu-Ray. And Transformers isn't mainstream crap? I suppose you could argue it was a 2 hour commercial for GM...
And Warner switched because of the consumer. The consumer bought more blu-ray discs. Twice as many. Warner is in the business of selling discs, not players. They went with the format that sells more discs.
What it means is that the cheapass people that bought that cheap HD-DVD player were too cheap or broke to buy movies for it. Not a market segment that a seller of movies is that interested in.
Ryan J. @ Jan 7th 2008 11:54AM
WAKE UP PEOPLE! The format war won't end (at the absolute earliest) until mid 2009. HD DVD has Dreamworks and Paramount under an exclusive content agreement until then (not to mention that Universal Studios only supports HD DVD). Yes, HD DVD will probably lose the war, but there will be A LOT of battles until that happens. If HD DVD continues to have exclusive content for much longer, combo players may become the market norm. If this war lasts too long, digital downloads may become the norm while the two disc camps keep squabbling. I support both formats, but won't buy many discs until this is resolved (thank you Blockbuster Online).
even @ Jan 7th 2008 11:59AM
I don't see why BOTH formats can't have support. Why not publish for both?
The only reason there's consumer confusion is because you have some studios on one side and some studios on the other side.
By Warner dropping support for one, you have a media company telling consumers what to do, instead of allowing the consumers to decide. HD DVD was gaining momentum. And HD DVD players are still the cheapest to be found on the market. And there are more stand alone HD DVD players out there than stand alone Blu-Ray players. It's only because of the PS3, that there Blu-Ray players in total.
Warner didn't do anyone any favors by forcing matters.
I'm unclear why people think Blu-Ray is so great, outside of the extra disc compacity-- which is great. Every title that has been available for both formats, seems to be better or offer more features in HD DVD.
Don @ Jan 7th 2008 12:32PM
This is probably the most cogent post since this "war" began. To answer your question, the reason is because each of the format creators wants to make a LOT of money. From their perspective, it doesn't make sense for a studio to produce movies in both formats because then their competitor is making money, too... money that they believe would otherwise go to them. But would it? I would argue "no" at the current price points. The demographic purchasing HD DVD is not the same as the demographic purchasing Blu Ray. The latter probably has more disposable income and considers themself an early adopter whereas the former is either an impulse buyer or a more cautious early adopter willing to invest wisely. It's unlikely that if Blu Ray emerges as the sole format, HD DVD users will suddenly flock to Blu Ray... not because they're among the legions of idiots on both sides who treat this as a video game, but simply because they've already invested $200 or so into HD DVD and will not do the same in Blu Ray until BD players are as affordable as HD DVD was. The irony is that if Blu Ray is the sole format, it's unlikely that it will EVER approach HD DVD's affordability, or at least not for several years, perhaps a decade or longer.
In the end, it's all about money, not marketing (as someone claimed). Blu Ray's pockets were deeper, and they were able to buy off more studios than HD DVD (which is a completely fair and valid strategy, don't get me wrong). Therefore, Blu Ray will quickly form a monopoly over HD disc media, and prices are unlikely to fall significantly.
SJT @ Jan 7th 2008 12:58PM
You two make a lot of sense. Completely agreed.
HedonismBot @ Jan 7th 2008 1:29PM
Some good points. I'd like to mention another couple of factors I don't think I've seen commented on too often.
1) I questioned the Blu camp not taking more early losses to push more players into the market, but I think this may have played into Blu's year-long dominance of disc sales. By not chasing HD-DVD down the price chart, they wound up with more users who had the excess cash to buy movies as opposed to renting. The content providers see a bigger chunk of cash from a sale than a rental.
2) I know that reputable sources reported that Universal/Dreamworks took $150 million for the 18-month exclusivity contract. I've looked around a bit, but haven't found any evidence of other payoffs on either side -- you said Blu-ray had the deeper pockets to buy off more studios, do you have any sources for that, or is it opinion?
Yes, I know that Sony outright owns a couple of the content providers so you could call that a buy-off, but to say that Microsoft and Toshiba don't have deep pockets is a bit of a stretch. Microsoft's market-cap is almost 325 billion dollars.
Finally, a lot has been said in this thread and others about relative picture quality. A few notes here... 1) in some early movies, Blu-Ray was using a crappier codec, but this has almost entirely ceased. The Highdefdigest reviews show the codecs used and new releases are typically using the same codec now.
2) Many review sites (such as highdefdigest) have gone on record saying that on a properly calibrated system, there is no perceptual quality difference between the two systems.
3) Studios that release both formats have no reason to take advantage of the extra 20GBs available on Blu-ray because to do so would require spending twice the money on compression and quality control. It's far less expensive to encode the movie once, and use the same on both formats. So you really can't make an accurate comparison.
I was on the fence, owning both formats, but in these comment-based opinion polls I'm falling Blu because I'm having trouble defending the statements of the HD-DVD backers.
rv @ Jan 7th 2008 1:51PM
If it continues to be very expensive and bandwith continues to increase, then digital download will jump in front of blu ray. Blu ray has won the format war. Now, can they win the distribution war? If they don't make their player affordable, there won't be a winner of the format war- both will have lost.
Don @ Jan 7th 2008 6:27PM
@ HedonismBot (great name)
You said, "but to say that Microsoft and Toshiba don't have deep pockets is a bit of a stretch. Microsoft's market-cap is almost 325 billion dollars." That's true, but MS and Toshiba haven't actually used their deep pockets from what I've seen, at least not in any definitive way. If you've got a nuclear option can't or won't use it, you basically don't have a nuclear option.
As for Sony buying off Warner, I admit I don't have a source at the moment, but A) it seems like I'd read it somewhere over the weekend and B) it's kind of obvious anyway. People made a big deal about HD DVD being cheaper to produce, an edge it quickly loses when the Blu Ray alliance is subsidizing Blu Ray production by writing checks to the studios so they can cement their market position.
That's what I'd do if I was Blu Ray, anyway. And I'd do the same thing as Warner if they came calling to me and HD DVD couldn't match their offer. Pretty simple, I think.
Snowdog @ Jan 7th 2008 12:04PM
HD-DVD has been obviously dead for a while, just Toshiba and assorted fanboys didn't get the message.
Even without this announcement, look at the CES hardware announcement from all the home electronics makers. Practically everyone is releasing a Blu Ray player. Is anyone other than Toshiba announcing HD-DVD.
In this case Toshiba is pulling a Betamax. One of the things that helped VHS succeed was winning more 3rd party manufactures to the hardware party. Toshiba hasn't done a very good job in this. They may have little choice but to drag this charade out till the bitter end, but any unbiased person could see the writing on the wall for some time.