If you're looking to gain respect for your gear as a serious business-class tool, there's no better way than to infiltrate those Big Four accounting firms still using Lotus Notes. According to a piece carried by the
Associated Press, Lotus Notes eMail is coming to Apple's iPhone and iPod touch. We kid you not. The announcement is expected as early as Sunday the 20th, the day IBM's annual Lotusphere conference kicks off in Orlando. The software is free for those with existing licenses which means IT is going to have a hell of a time keeping it out of users' hands. If true, the application would presumably be the first official, third-party app developed with Apple's new
iPhone SDK. IBM is also expected to announce their free Lotus Symphony flavor of OpenOffice for the Mac at the same time. An IBM spokesman seemingly confirmed the announcements by saying that Apple and IBM have, "a lot in common. We're going to cross-pollinate." Let's just hope they manage to untangle that jumbled Notes UI for finger-friendly navigation during the mating ritual, eh?
[Via
MacRumors]
posted Jan 17th 2008 7:33AM
I've been working with MS and Lotus products since '90. I've hired/fired and trained many admin/dev's on both platforms. I believe this comes down to a fundamental philosophy - MS assumes the end users are dumb. You can see this in the easy to use UI that it creates for users and will usually give a pretty icon for the user to hit. IBM/Lotus assumes the end users will be smart. You can see this by apps that have function over look and feel. Same goes for the admins. MS wants to cater to the 'power user', so the installs are easy and quick. Config options are there, but not required. (very smart move in order to increase adoption rates) IBM/Lotus expects the admin to be an engineer. Development, well Notes has made it really easy for 'Joe the Accountant' to crank out an application in a few minutes. Double edged sword, in my opinion. Now we end up with a ton of poorly written apps. But, you can also be a highly trained programmer and crank out some incredible apps in Notes using almost any language you prefer to program in.
I can't wait until Google offers and enterprise Messaging and Collaboration environment that is worthy. The analyst firms are saying that the MS and Lotus will be battling for 2nd place with in the next few years.
I recently visited Lotusphere08 to evaluate the coming version 8.01 of Lotus Notes and guess what - it still sucks! The improvements over previous releases literally just go skin deep...
For those interested in 8 and 8.01 I reviewed them on dooyoo.com
@usability-first. If dooyoo.com is your idea of great usability, I am glad you had nothing to do with Lotus Notes/Domino usability development - what a worthless, unfriendly interface.
What the hell is that XP screen capture ?
looks like a nice photochop job. I suspect the real UI will look closer to Google's Grand Prix project on iPhone.
The screen cap is wishful thinking - we'd all love to see an iPhone that connects to Exchange, if only to stop the whining in IT when we tell a fanboy where to stick his "Fun phone" (QFT - Steve Jobs).
As for the other bits...
"If true, the application would presumably be the first official, third-party app developed with Apple's new iPhone SDK. "
http://www.apple.com/webapps/
Actually, I think there may be a few preceeding it. Now if someone would PLEASE build me an ActiveSync connector?
Thanks
Its called Outlook Web Access... Has nothing to do with XP. They are probably running OWA inside safari (if that is possible).
*Phew* Thank Jebus we just moved away from Notes!
I am a software architect for IBM and I am already using Lotus Notes on my iPhone. It's available to anyone who wants it. Here's what you do:
1. Sign up for an email account on gmail.
2. Go into Lotus Notes and create a new rule to forward all email to your new gmail account.
3. Go into your gmail account and configure the "reply to" to be your lotus notes email account (note, gmail will send a confirmation email to your lotus notes account which you have to confirm)
4. Set up the new gmail account on your iphone.
5. Profit
Please god tell me you were joking about being an IBM software engineer... although it does explain the "why" of Lotus Chokes.
Just wait until your IT department finds out your bypassing security for convenience, you'll soon have plenty of time to play with your iphone while looking for a new job.
My company still uses Lotus Notes. However, unless there's also a version of Lotus Mobile Connect included, the iPhone will have no way to VPN across the firewall for access. I'm sure this is the same for everyone.
Dammit, dammit, dammit! I wanted an iPhone so bad but ended up getting a Blackberry Curve on T-Mobile last week because it supports my companies Notes over BES. Oh well.
I just wonder what our Notes team would have to do on the back end to support this. How would this thing connect to our Notes servers without VPN?
Some companies have their webmail deployed in the DMZ so that home-based users can connect without a VPN client.
You are probably still within a 14-day period where you can return your phone. I'd give that a try and see what happens in February. Worst is you just buy it again in February (unless you got a deal that will not be there).
Lotus Notes sucks, thats really all their is to it.
So does your spelling.
He typed it on this iPhone.
Lotus is so 90's...yuck!
nothin' better than a few extra fingers while mating...
seriously though, this is a good start. get exchange/push and availability in canada and i'd be on board, even without an sd card slot
My last company switched to the latest version of Lotus Notes. It was horrible. It's basically a large web application hosted inside of a browser control. It's slow and down right ugly. Outlook has more features and is more user friendly.
That's actually incorrect; you're using the iNotes client, which is only one of the clients available for Notes (there's also the old client, available up to v7, and the new client based on Eclipse RCP from v8 on for Windows, v7 for Linux).
Outlook is, in my view, far worse than Notes (even though I've never been a big fan of Notes). At least Notes is pretty secure...
For straight email, Outlook and Exchange is prettier. For actual business use with security and databases Notes is the only way to go. Show me a way to make Outlook/Exchange do half that stuff you can do in a NotesDB and I'll be a convert.
I love how people think running a large business with Exchange, a public folder here or there, and a file server is a reasonable way to keep track of things.
Oh come on. Lotus Notes has to be one of the worst pieces of software ever written. Notes is a dinosaur and it deserves to be left to die. Outlook by comparison is extremely easy to use, scalable and HTTP via RPC access is a killer feature if you're using Exchange.
I would have to agree with Jakem. Notes is a pretty bad app, as far as aesthetics goes and user friendliness. It does get the job done though, it is secure and reliable. I just wish they would jump into at least the 90's as far as user friendliness and usability.
Here we go again, why is it that whenever Slashdot or Engadget does an article about Notes the haters come out in full force.
I wholeheartedly agree with Andrew Pollack and Jeff, Notes has a lot more going for it than just the mail, and the newest release it very good. Everyone loves to bash Notes because of it's historically square client base, but give it a chance and take a look at the latest version, you will be pleasantly surprised.
Also, the simple fact that it is so easy to develop applications for Notes exposes a lot of users to poorly developed Notes apps done by inexperienced developers. It's hard to get people to separate the actual product from the applications done badly.
Lotus Notes' security and mobility are unmatched by anything else in the market and that is the reason so many large companies use it, but try telling that to the haters!
WOW, next time you use Photoshop, use you're own reflection at least. It's not hard.
Notes is a Proprietary application platform that just happens to have a Mail/Calendaring module.
You can't compare Domino Applications, which are stuck in a silo'd hell with thinly veiled interopable abilities. The thing is a pig, and just try and integrate it in a large environment. Even IBM has problems integrating their own platforms with Notes which is why it's the red headed stepchild of their applications.
Notes had it's chance, but it really hasn't matured outside of it's island to fit into the current world. It is said to be the platform Admins love, and end users hate for a reason.
MS Exchange is a Collaboration platform, not something trying to be everything. It is like comparing apples to oranges.
Also, this iPhone mentions mail, but what about calendaring integration?
Oh and Notes 8 was such a let down. I had to uninstall the thing and go back to Notes 7 because it crashed all the time :(
I just want my Outlook back :)
Exchange is a collaboration platform? ROTFLMAO. Aside from being prone to crashes that cause the entire system to be unavailable for hours on end, its not much more than a shared file tool when it comes to collaboration. Sharepoint? bah! They had to just TAKE BACK one version of it that was so unusable, they didn't CHARGE people to go from it to the next one. NOTHING is backward compatible, it ONLY runs on Windows (show me a good Linux outlook collaboration client, please, for integration with sharepoint) and the licensing model is hell.
To make matters worse, if you build an outlook/sharepoint/activedirectory/office/sql server environment, Microsoft OWNS your I.T. budget. If you want to upgrade ANY of those pieces you must upgrade ALL of them.
I know one company who went with Exchange over Notes but was worried that MS would make them buy new server operating systems so they got a promise that it would not require a new OS version to upgrade. Technically, that was sort of true. It turned out that it DID require a 64 bit operating system to upgrade though, so they were forced to buy new HARDWARE and thus a NEW COPY OF THE SAME OPERATING SYSTEM.
I'm not entirely an IBM Fanboy here. I hate Websphere and Portal -- pretty much anything J2EE related sets my teeth on edge as usually wasteful of budget and processing power -- My OS preference is Linux for servers and XP for desktop (I know, I'm the only one left who doesn't like Mac OSX -- though now with Parallels and the iPhone which I hate myself for having to admit is light years ahead of every other phone I've tested) I may have to join the borg nation of macboys).
I write code for Asterisk on Linux, I write client side software in vs.NET that integrates with Domino using Web Services (that makes a REALLY compelling design environment, by the way). I write in Java, C, C++, C#, VB, VB.net, bash shell scripting (if you don't think that's a language, go read a book), and if forced a little bit of perl.
It is sufficient then, to say I know more than just Domino and Notes. Yet I pick Domino as a platform for what it does, because I can build things that work, are secure, are stable, and are flexible in about 1/10th the time and budget as I can in any other platform.
I also prefer Domino because it is OPEN to STANDARDS INTEGRATION. I'm not talking about Microsoft's style of open-ness (embrace and extend to co-opt the marketplace), I'm talking about fully support standards. To wit: LDAP, IMAP, POP2, POP3, SMTP, SNMP, XML, HTTP, SSL, NNTP, Java (sort of a standard), Javascript (also sort of a standard), Web Services (SOAP/XML+HTTP+WSDL), MIME, SMIME, x.509, vcards, COM (a semi-standard of Microsoft's), Active-X (a semi-standard of Microsoft's), CORBA, CSS, and probably a dozen others I'm forgetting for now.
JefTeck, where do you get all that from
I have been programming lotus notes for 7 years. I know it inside out.
I have find out that many companies just deploy LN and only use the Mail/Calendar.
I have used notes since 4.5, and i never understood people complaining about the interface, as it is the same as the outlook client. In fact, more or less all mail apps look the same.
Lotus Notes is the first and best collaboration platform. You can do ANY type of application with it.
What you can do in notes takes 10 times or more in other platforms.
Management is fast and easy.
And having the "data" folder separate from the "application" folder, is a bliss.
When we have to move our notes deploy from Windows 2003 server to Linux, we just copied the data folder over the new install, and that was it.
Lets try it with exchange.
Exchange is a poor excuse of a bug riden, virus proone mail application.
I use the Lotus System at work, and the single largest frustration I have with the system is the fact that I have to enter all my calendar entries twice. Once into Lotus, and once into my iPhone. Calendar integration would be more helpful to me than e-mail. The ToDo functions would also be nice.
No, please. Not Notes!!! Is the worse ever sold software (and I'm still wondering why so many public administrations keep using it!).
I'm not going to waste 20 bucks for the update, but I could do, if IBM promise me to not release an iPhone/IPT version of Notes! :D
Lotus Notes is way more then just an email client, and outlook is not a better client, i give you at times it may look better, but the two are just two different products, and for of you people who say notes sucks you don't know what pain is, till your exchange sever starts acting up, Notes opens up a whole world of possibilities when it comes the delivery of rich business content over the web, and through the notes clients, It Never ceases to amazing me when people complain about Lotus Notes without knowing what it is capable of.
Despite the fact my company still uses notes (ver 6.5) and it sucks, this is good news. Hopefully our IT staff will support this, but I doubt it.
Your consulting employer won't abandon Notes ;)
I'm with you! Lotus Notes 6.5 stuck behind citrix, or a barely usable web client.
The database structure of notes and how you can interlink mail, calendars, teams and things like that is quite nifty and I always liked it for that reason.
Trouble is the bloody interface .... never got out of the darkages, always insisted on using proprietry styles and templates and the most annoying thing was keyboard shortcuts.
F5 screen locks Notes. ... WTF ? .... So there I am, looking at a filtered view, press F5 like you would in any normal window to refresh it .... locked out, need to enter password again. I know that stuff like that has been brought to the attention of the designers / developers for years pleading for convergence towards the general accepted UI workings of the modern age ... and they blankly ignore it year in year out.
Notes/CC mail was actually around before windows and had the F5 set as lock prior to the release of windows and they just haven't changed it.
"F5 = Refresh" is such a misconcepction. Go ahead, open Word and press F5. What do you get? Oh, Find and Replace. Now try it in Excel. Oh, it's Goto. The truth is it's different in every Microsoft application. The only two where it is the same are Internet Explorer and Windows Explorer. F5 is absolutely, positively **NOT** a standard for refresh in Microsoft applications. Do some research.
The stupidity I hear repeated about Notes is almost funny. Here are some things you probably DON'T know:
1. Notes is on version 8. Comparing it with the last one you used in 2004 is just plain stupid.
2. Notes is now built to run within Eclipse, opening the full UI capabilities of that tool to Notes developers. It is now WAY more graphically capable than Exchange/outlook etc.
3. Notes -- the full client -- fully supports LINUX desktops and MAC desktops (though Mac support is still playing catchup, it should achieve full parity this year).
4. Domino -- the server for Notes -- is fully supported on Linux, AIX, Win2k3, and OS/400 (iSeries).
5. Programability wise, you can write notes & domino application using its proprietary languages as always - but also in Java, C, & C++. You can hook its functionality from vs.NET, COM, ODBC, and Web Services, and you can import and export both data and design elements in xml (the dtd is called DXL).
I know, personally, a financial firm of 15000 people where they use Notes with hundreds of applications, and require only a dozen people to support, manage, and design apps for that environment. They need over 300 support people to managed their locked down xp desktop environment with office.
Bashing a product based on what it was like 10 years ago as a way to look like you know what you're doing, just makes you look like your I.T. experience is closer to the level of "brother-in-law who knows computers" or at best "Geek Squad" head goon or entry level support tech a podunk products corporation where all the decisions are made so far above your head you don't even get to hear the reasons.
"Still Using Notes" my butt. You're talking about a product still growing is market, and holding more than 50% of the world wide market (and just under 50% of the U.S. market) for Enterprise (not home geek) messaging.
Want to stop Notes dead in it's tracks? Try to integrate it into Directory services with business partners :) Directory Assistance is a joke, and even IBM has admitted it will not work until maybe "Domino Next" (notes 10?). Ntoes is great for centralized controlled environments, but horrible in any distributed envirionment.
Their solution? Sync passwords via client side tools....That's craptastic.
So will the Notes client have remote wipe of the devices? How are they going to secure it if the iPhone is stolen? Does the iPhone even have a password?
@JefTek -
I'd had clients using Domino servers that authenticate and control access via users and groups entirely stored in Active Directory through the built in LDAP support in Lotus Notes & Domino for more than 4 years.
What is coming in the next major release (which will be called 8.5 or 9.0 in all liklihood) is clearly better. Of course, that's what SHOULD happen. When something goes through a major release cycle (which for Domino and Notes is about 18 months) it should GET BETTER. Microsoft could learn from that, yes?
The design environment is undergoing radical overhaul in the current cycle -- to be live-demoed in 3 days by the way. The Notes Domino revision cycle usually alternates, with every other year focused on major updates to either the client side or the server side. That works fine in the Domino/Notes world, since the product is 100% backward compatible all the way to versions from 1991. You can upgrade some clients but not all to use a new feature. You can upgrade a server and not clients or a client and not server. It doesn't matter. Use what makes sense.
Andrew your comments on Notes are refreshing to see, Notes has such a long history it's hard for people to believe that such an "old" product has done an excellent job of keeping up with the times, and still innovate.
Notes is best.
Outlook? Don't run a business on software you can get at Walmart.
So they're selling Windows Server and Exchange Server at Walmart now?
Notes 8 may be better, however my company is 1.5 versions behind and we constantly have issues with our notes servers. Perhaps in my case it is the implementation that stinks
Yeah, IT implementation makes a huge difference on user acceptance of a product. I've seen shops where they're still using Notes 4.x mail templates on a 6.5.x server! No wonder users might criticize Notes!
shouldn't that read notes suite?
Outstanding comments, it goes to show how many of you are just plain ignorant to what Lotus Notes is, what it does and how it dominates the collaboration industry. Don't spew misinformation about Notes, we are talking about Notes 8.x not Notes 6 or 7, it's a completely different ball game.
"Big four accounting firms" serious? Are you really that stupid? Man, whoever wrote this article is smoking from the wrong pipe. Do some research on where Notes is being used.
As to Notes on the iPhone. Yes, its coming, it will be announced and officially shown soon. Symphony and Notes client are coming to the mac as well.
To the comments regarding ability to wipe the device remotely, etc, please, step away from the ledge. Its a software package, not a device management solution. If you install it, you can't magically go to your Domino server and pull your mail from work. You can't just somehow leap through the magical Internet and land on your corporate server. C'mon, are you for real?
Notes 8 which features the rich client platform was released on Linux and Windows at the same time. Mac support is with Notes 8.01. Notes 8 brings Activities, Sametime, RSS feeds, and a flexible platform to integrate your eclipse framework apps into it. It's a lot more than email.
Coke uses it
The UN uses it
The Bank of NY uses it
Kroger uses it
Raytheon uses it
Gap uses it
GM uses it
State Farm uses it
Protective Life Insurance uses it
Epson uses it
just to name a few...
@B - right on and a lot more that i'm sure you've worked on too ;-)
ExxonMobil uses it.
It's interface is historically ugly and has a learning curve, but it really does make Outlook/Exchange look like a play thing when it comes to enterprise use. For Billy Bob's Shipping Supply Co, you wouldn't see the benefits.
PWC uses it....
Apple doesn't use Notes or Outlook, and they seem to do just fine.
(AAPL)
@Andrew,
It works fine in smaller controlled environments, but it breaks down due to how they attempt to resolve users. It is depdendent on unique usernames, and uses a concept of directory hunting (Guessing) to attempt to find the correct user. This works ok in a small environment, but when you attempt to integrate across environments you do not control (Business parts, Acquisitions, etc) it fails.
I'm talking enterprise 250k+ users environments, where it doesn't scale very well.
It gets even worse with Websphere and Sametime integration. The whole integration philosophy is flawed, and IBM will admit to this and will attempt to sell you their other products (TDI and TIM which also have their issues) to try and solve their integration issues.
I think Notes 8 has promise, but it's a bit too little too late because it is a radical change for shops, and at that time it should be considered if Notes is the right path to be on. I see Notes shops who have investing in Domino technology continuing to be stuck down that path.
A major problem is also the proliferation of easy to build apps that have duplicate functions in an enterprise. In that way Notes apps are like silo'd bastions of specific information, and not very usable otuside of their core population.
Just solve their identity integration issues across all their products, and it would make my world so much easier. When you have meeting after meeting with IBM engineers and they still can't fix their products after years of working with them, you get jaded.
Maybe I've worked in large environments which are "Special" and every other notes world is a happy place, but based on the feedback out there I doubt it.
I work in a hospital that uses notes. Not the best looking UI I must admit but the thing is rock solid. Oh, and there 6,600 employees. From the user side it just works. But then I am still using Lotus 123 v1.o on my PC junior. :P
@JefTek :
You said: "it breaks down due to how they attempt to resolve users. It is depdendent on unique usernames, and uses a concept of directory hunting (Guessing) to attempt to find the correct user. This works ok in a small environment, but when you attempt to integrate across environments you do not control (Business parts, Acquisitions, etc) it fails"
Sort of - It uses LDAP, a standard poorly supported by Active Directory. So much so that to make it better, they're building in NATIVE support for Active Directory to get around MICROSOFT's limitations. Even still, if you're really good with LDAP you can fully modify every aspect of how Domino uses LDAP to sync with AD including what fields to compare for uniqueness. As I recall, AD uses different (nonstandard) ldap ports for different kinds of lookups. It even handles that.
You also said: "A major problem is also the proliferation of easy to build apps that have duplicate functions in an enterprise. In that way Notes apps are like silo'd bastions of specific information, and not very usable otuside of their core population."
To which I would reply: So, a major problem is that its easy and cheap to build quick solutions. Some problem to have. Futher, since ALL of the data and design elements in a Notes application are FULLY AVAILBLE AND OPEN in XML and COM, the only reason anything in Notes is silo'ed is that there isn't anything from Microsoft capable of DOING what it DOES. You can export the data, but then what will you do with it? You'd have to re-build that functionality provided by the easily created Notes application using visual studio. It can be done, but you need GOOD (expensive) programmers and plenty of time to build it from scratch then bring the data over.
Now, try doing something with some sharepoint data outside of a Microsoft environment and let me know how that goes.
As far as Notes 8.0 being a radical step - that's an understatement. Its entirely running (if you want it to) within ECLIPSE as a plug-in, and the entire UI is wide open. Even with all that change, it remains 100% backward compatible with versions 7.5x, 7.x, 6.5x, 6.x, 5.x, 4.6x, 4.x, 3.3x, 3.x, and 2.x going back to 1991. Yep, you can OPEN any of those easily built and widely proliferated apps created in 1991 or later using the very latest Notes client in seconds. I have a few.
What you've seen so far in 8.0 doesn't show you what Eclipse GIVES You yet. First they had to make it work. What you'll see demo'd on Sunday and all of next week will show you WHY eclipse. You'll see the entire user interface for Designing and USING applications getting major enhancements from IBM -- and you're starting to see the ISV community releasing UI tools that have full control to do absolutely anything to it.
What's new in Exchange/Outlook? What happened to their Database driven file storage system? What value does Vista bring over XP/Pro for users (other than the MPAA)? WHY does anyone upgrade to the new Outlook? OH, because they HAVE TO. If they want to upgrade EITHER office, or Windows Servers, or SQL, or Sharepoint they're FORCED to upgrade ALL of them.
What if (gasp) you have users who prefer to run Mac's or Linux desktops -- or admins who want to run Linux servers? Better not go Microsoft for ANYTHING then.
IBM uses it and they have over 350K+ employees.
@Jeftek,
Not sure what part of Sametime integration you can't make work but it seems to work perfectly fine across a dozen of my clients and I connect to all of them with it.
Domino scales as high as you want, try using a Mainframe, Z series or iSeries.
iSeries, AS/400, is the 2nd most used Server(or so I am told by my Lotus contact) after windows.
Daimler and Chrysler merged their systems together and that was made the process simpler for them at the time.
Notes is just a client, if you like Outlook, so use it, with Domino as your server. Prefer a different Webmail or UI, use it, it will still work with Domino.
The beauty of the Domino server lies in the following benefits to the end users and admins:
1) If your mail box is corrupted, ONLY you are down, you don't bring the other users on your mailbox down with you waiting for a restore or a database fixup.
2) Clustering. Up to 6 servers of ANY type hardware or Operating System, as long as Domino is running.
3) Domino does not force you to change your entire software infrastructure just to get the new version loaded. See http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa996719.aspx
I do not have to update my OS to run Domino R8 as one MUST do to Windows 2003 64 bit so you can run Exchange 2007.
4) Hardware is not an issue for Domino. You don't have to upgrade, of course you may want to do so. I have Pentium2 servers running Domino R8 perfectly fine. I don't have to buy 64bit hardware to update my messaging server, a la Exchange 2007 (again see http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa996719.aspx).
5) Domino integrates to almost ANY Operating system, not just Windows.
If you don't like the way Notes looks, that is just aesthetics, I think Saab makes ugly cars, but I don't rail aginst their performance or benefits which is why some poeple use it, just because I don't find it attractive.
Andrew Pollack can I just say thank you! Refreshing to see someone in IT who actually knows something still. Alot comments in this thread about Notes and its inability to match Exchange. That is just laughable. All the above mentioned reasons are pretty spot on. I ask people who have actually used exchange, domino, outlook and the notes client to give a comparison. I am willing to bet 90% and above prefer Notes, including the client.
To build on what Andrew Pollack said another major factor going on right now with Notes is the cost. This is really the motivating factor for alot of companies to switch. Alot of times Microsoft is willing to throw in Exchange CAL's for free just to "fence you in." This usually occurs with companies who have EA/Select agreements. The company I work for just went through this process. We ending us staying with Notes (for other reasons) but we were very very close to switching, based mainly on cost.
sgossard34
The difference here is that Exchange integrates up and out with 3rd party support for it's collaboration services. I can buy a product today and I can be pretty damn sure it will integrate into Exchange and Active Directory.
Notes integrates really only up the IBM stack, and even then has issues. A common complaint is that Sametime/Websphere/Domino are never synchronized in their releases and suffer integration problems because of this.
If you step too far away from IBM, you start finding all the dark corners of being locked into Notes.
I guess in my mind, I don't like the IBM Lockin. I find it funny that even though you don't install Symphony, Notes 8 still tries to get you to use it in the sandbox.
I guess we all have our experiences, which leads us to different opinions.
@JefTek :
You said: "The difference here is that Exchange integrates up and out with 3rd party support for it's collaboration services. I can buy a product today and I can be pretty damn sure it will integrate into Exchange and Active Directory.
Notes integrates really only up the IBM stack, and even then has issues. A common complaint is that Sametime/Websphere/Domino are never synchronized in their releases and suffer integration problems because of this."
To which I have to ask "What the heck are you smoking?" You can fully integrate with the Notes/Domino stack using: LDAP, IMAP, POP2, POP3, SMTP, SNMP, XML, HTTP, SSL, NNTP, Java (sort of a standard), Javascript (also sort of a standard), Web Services (SOAP/XML+HTTP+WSDL), MIME, SMIME, x.509, vcards, COM, RSS, -- and now JSF as well.
Oh, and by integrate I mean you can import/export data manually or programatically, call an object model locally or remotely in the foreground or background, make your own object model for access to specific data -- and do all of that with a full range of access controls. On top of all that, any of the options you choose will continue to to work in ALL FUTURE VERSIONS FOREVER -- as has been the case since 1991. Sure, new kinds of integration have been added along the way, but ALL of the old ones still work, and still work with the same calls in the same way. Your integration doesn't break when you upgrade the server.
Again, I say try that with Exchange/Outlook/sharepoint/vs.net. Hell, it took me hours to transition simple applications from vs.net 2003 to vs.net 2005. It took me 5 minutes to upgrade my Domino server and SOME (only those who needed it) notes clients from version 7.x to 8.0 -- a WAY bigger upgrade. And I had way less problems on the Notes/Domino upgrade.
My question about remote wipe is more of a question to the security of the iPhone platform than for Notes itself. I am not convinced that corporate information should be on a non-managed portable device, so I was wondering if the iPhone had any management capabilities.
By putting on a Notes client, you now have an avenue to have corporate information floating around on an easily steal able device. RIM's Blackberry and Microsoft's Windows Mobile are managed environments, but I don't see the iPhone having this capability. It will be up to each shop to asses whether it is a good idea to allow the storage of (Outlook Web Access/Domino Web Access is not the same as a client on the phone) information on the device.
By putting a known corporate email platform on a consumer device, it could be a rather nefarious venture. Yeah some companies have some benign emails, but others are very sensitive about it, so I am curious if IBM's client solves some of the iPhones corporate weaknesses.
@JefTek :
Taking the question part of your comments seriously for a minute -- if I'm not mistaken, when you use the iPhone for Notes you're really using something called "iNotes" which is a browser based application with off-line replication in some cases (I'm not sure if it can do the offline stuff on the iPhone). The reason it can do this, is because the browser on the iPhone truly rocks, and fully supports all (or most) of the STANDARDS used by the Domino server to deliver mail and calendaring over the web -- html, ajax, xml, sometimes java, etc.
If you seriously want me to find out about your security question, I'm happy to do so. Search on my name and the word "blog" and you'll find me, and you'll find I have email contact information posted there. I'm not going to post the URL here as I abhore "blog-whoring" in general. Also, I'll be in Orlando all next week if you're going to that conference.
Well, you will definitely have a security layer to the IBM application.
But to your thoughts on iPhone as a device, agreed. People already have corporate data on the device, how many people do you know that send a document to their gmail or hotmail account from their work account so they can access something at home? I suppose corporations need to get hip to access everywhere (when it makes sense) and secure it at every layer. I'm sure there has got to be a way for an IT policy to be put on the iPhone, it is just a micro version of MAC OS.
Wonder if the iPhone has an equivalent to a hard disk password?
Fuck Lotus Notes. God damn I wanted to die when I had to use it at my previous job.
Wow. I am impressed and may change my opinion based on your insights and clearly mature, seasoned, studied approach. I can tell just by reading your essay that you've had a long and respected career making enterprise level I.T. decisions.
I'm forced to use Lotus Notes at work and I can only hope that this is true... So far this beats any announcement from Macworld 08
I work for the Census Bureau and stuck with using Lotus Notes. It is quite possibly the worst application I've ever used. Not only does it suck memory, it just sucks.
@Eric:
I'm sure the Census Bureau has the same opinion about you. They're just stuck with you.
Thank you for the thought-out argument. What e-mail client does not suck? GMail?
Wow. I can't believe there's people out there defending Lotus Notes.
Eric, where are you in the Census Bureau?
@Shahryar - you know me :) UMBC?!
I've used Outlook, I've used Notes. I've run Exchange servers and I've run Domino servers. Notes & Domino are heads above Exchange/Outlook any day.
If you're in here complaining about the UI then you obviously haven't seen Notes 8. But this is usually the case with the haters. They love to dwell on code that isn't even current generation.
And to the OP and others who love to toss in the "still using Lotus Notes" line...give me a break. You are using it, period. It is current software, and updated (on a much more frequent and successful basis than anything out of Redmond). This market is tighter than most of you think it is, and there are plenty of ND shops out there to back that up.
@JefTek - Scalable, Exchange? LOL you seriously have to be kidding. Oh wait, this is Windows scalable right? Just add another server, and another server, and another server... yea right that works.
Exchange is absolutely NOT a collaboration platform. It does messaging & calendaring. That's about it, 3rd party integration or not. Exchange doesn't know the meaning of the word collaboration.
Now should we get into why Outlook mysteriously just can't communicate with its own calendar service from time to time and I have to kill it to get things back? Or maybe how it can't figure out how to do autocomplete of an address to save its life, so instead we have this cache thing which gets killed if you do an update.
Neither one is perfect but I've spent enough time working with both to be able to make my own decision as to which one is better, and I choose Notes & Domino.
Hell no Notes on iPhone. It will make even iPhone ugly....We don't need any office s/w. Please stay away...
I administer a Notes/Domino 7 environment, and was trained on Exchange. I never seen anything as solid and reliable as a Domino Server, I sure you could run it on two cans and string if you need to. Notes could use some work through.
I look at Domino as an application framework that does messaging. I still prefer Exchange over Domino when it comes to email, but it may because I was originally trained on it.
+++++++++++++I AM A DOMINO ADMINISTRATOR++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
First, Notes/Domino is NOT proprietary, it is based on Eclipse which is OPEN SOURCE!!! That's why Notes is the first to be developed on the iPhone, because it didn't take much coding to get it to work. Secondly, Domino and Exchange are not even in the same class, Microsuck gave up on the whole enterprise collaboration in open app with new version of Exchange. Thirdly, the new version of the Notes Client, version 8 is WAY better looking than Outlook 2007 or whatever the latest version is called. Can you run Outlook on Linux, NO! Can you run Outlook on Mac, NO! Can you run Outlook on iPhone, NO!!! Can you run Notes on Linux, Mac and iPhone, HELL YEAH!!! If you haven't seen or worked with Notes/Domino 8, shut your trap! IBM has spent a lot of money and time making a killer application and they hit the Bulls Eye with this release!
You do bring up a good question. Does anyone know how many notes shops have upgraded to Notes 8?
Notes pre-8 is certainly not built on Eclipse, so what is the majority of installations still at? 6.5? 7.0?
If they haven't upgraded, why not?
cseabrooks, "Notes/Domino is NOT proprietary"
Oh yes it is. The new Notes client surfaced through eclipse as a plug-in, but it's as closed source as it's always been. Domino has nothing to do with eclipse at all.
If it was open source you'd be able to get, you know, the source. You can't.
@JeffTek
You said:
"Notes pre-8 is certainly not built on Eclipse, so what is the majority of installations still at? 6.5? 7.0?
If they haven't upgraded, why not?"
Probably not a large percentage of Notes users have fully upgraded to version 8. Why not? The better question is what's the rush? I think it's clear in the comment in this thread alone, that many people are still on older versions of notes. Why? I suppose because ugly as they might be, they just work. Upgrading any IT system has a cost involved. Some companies don't always have the budget to deploy upgrades.
the better question might be... "why does the Exchange world upgrade?" The answer is that since there are so many pieces, once you upgrade one, you're forced to upgrade them all. end of story.
Any notes client version can talk to any Domino server version. Different domino server versions will talk to each other. So a domino 8 server can replicate with 6.5 for example. Heck, is should even replicate with an r4 server.
So whenever you talk about Notes/Domino upgrades. It's always because you want to upgrade and NEVER because you MUST upgrade.
That is true. We have a bout 25% of our servers running 8 and maybe 5% of our users.
@Kerr, you said:
Oh yes it is. The new Notes client surfaced through eclipse as a plug-in, but it's as closed source as it's always been. Domino has nothing to do with eclipse at all.
If it was open source you'd be able to get, you know, the source. You can't.
The Notes client is NOT a "plug-in" to Eclipse! It is an application "built" using the Eclipse platform. Notes may not be "open source", but it is OPEN in the term of extensiable. Outlook is extensiable if you pay Microsoft a boat load of money for the API.
@Eric - OK you just laid out the root cause. It is not that "Notes Sucks" it is because you work for a government agency, and they lack budget/vision to do it well (I can say that because I worked for an agency that had the same challenges). I am currently working on changes to a Domino Web application that has possibly the worst UI I have EVER seen. But because of budget constraints, I am not allowed to improve it. The ability to get changes approved through the bureaucracy sucks, not the software.
For those of you who have only posted limited "It sucks" ot "Notes Sucks", it would be more useful if you could give some specific examples of what exactly sucks in your environment. By specific, I mean specific!
I work for the Federal Government, Department of the Interior, and unfortunately we still use the antiquated E-mail app known as Lotus Notes. Maybe this will allow me to use Apple systems in the near future...
Not all agencies in Interior are using antiquated versions of Notes.
Perhaps it's just your Bureau that sucks and not Notes :)
The name iNotes went away with version 5. Since release 6 the browser based mail client is called Domino Web Access. I believe that this is what is going to be supported on the iPhone and not the full Lotus Notes client.
If it's just a pretty shell for DWA, that would be lame. I think offline message access is key especially for travelers on planes, etc.
Ok, talking about Eclipse and server backend issues is all administration/designer related, so lets talk about end user.
In all fairness I am not running on a Notes 8 server so things may have improved that I am unaware of:
So my client issues:
1 - Remap the damn F5 key to not log me out. yes, F5 is a Windows-esque common command, but a large majority of applications utilize F5 as refresh, but not lotus notes.
2 - Give me the end user ability (not admin client needed) to customize my interface. Let me choose my interface font face and font size. I have good eyesight, so let me shrink down the font size, or if I have poor eye sight let me increase the font size. Also, refresh my mailbox as mail arrives, not on a set interval. My blackberry beeps before it shows up on my desktop inbox so far.
3 - Integrate my logon information into a the Enterprise Directory, not just the Domino Directory. The Client side SSO tool is kludgy at best, and problematic with good security policies. Also get rid of those stupid logon symbols. They were a silly thing back in the 80s, and really have very little value now.
4 - If I get an updated meeting request, apply it to my calendar entry without me having to open it. Nothing worse than looking at your calendar and the meeting cancellation has not been opened because it's mixed in with 100s of new messages, so you are not aware a change has happened. (Is there an Agent for this perhaps)
5 - Add Grouping. I really miss this from Outlook for messages.
If you know of any solutions to these issues, I beg you to offer up that knowledge :)
in version 8:
1. done, f5 now refreshes, ctrl +f5 locks.
2. much more customizable, you can set the fonts.
3. since we are talking about client side only, the log in can "disappear" for the end user by matching the notes password to windows login, 8 also allows windows to change the notes password, so when you update your windows password notes is updated. I haven't seen the "icons" in months.
4. you can have it auto change your meetings for you now, but I prefer knowing when and where I've promised to be.
5. if you mean messages grouped by reply, that is also now in 8 ( I think 7 had a simple version also.) I haven't gotten a chance to play with that to much as the live server i'm working off of is a 6.5
JeffTek: All of your issues were addressed in 8, except maybe 5, which no one seems to know what you mean. The glyphs were kept around in pre-8 clients because people still thought they were "cool". They are gone and so can the log-in prompt together. I just had one question because I noticed that Keith answered all of questions quite fully, yet you still seem to be a doubter, why?
Jef are you talking about grouping by date or by sent by user? There are several grouping type functions in Outlook I am aware of.
To be clear as well, as with many other apps you have to be fully current to see some features. This means Notes 8 client, Domino 8 server, and in many cases more importantly version 8 mail database template design.
4 - Has been fixed since version six. There is a mini-view item below the folders in the mail interface. Actually, I'm not surprised you haven't found it - I just spent 15 minutes searching through the help files to find the official name :p I finally found the name in the preferences.
Anyway, if you look at the bottom of the pane that has your views and folders, hover your mouse right at the dividing line that's right above the server name your mail file is hosted on near the bottom of that pane and you will get the divided arrow that indicates you can grab that bar - do so and expand it. Then change the pop-up menu in the upper left hand corner of that pane to New Notices (I think it defaults to Follow Up).
You can set your preferences to put all your Calendering notices in there. If you go into your Mail preferences, on the Calendaring and ToDo tab and then pick the Display tab, in the lower half of the dialog you can control how the mini-view works and if calendaring items are still displayed in your inbox. As soon as I found those settings, I started using the mini-view and hide all the calendaring stuff from my inbox and sent box. Makes life with the calendar much more easier! No longer do meeting invitations get lost in your inbox!
And you can do it now :)
Or if you really want to, you can tell Notes to autoprocess your meeting invitations. That's been in the code since version 4 - it's also in the preferences (access from inside the mail template, not File -> Preferences path).
BTW - that horrid separation of preferences is also addressed much better in 8 - even if they did rename stuff and make it confusing for us old-timers, it should be much easier for new Notes users. I still think there are too many screens offered by default - I would like to see about 3/4 of that stuff hidden by default until you enable an advanced mode (which would be a preference).
5 - I don't think anyone else answered this - in Notes 8 it's called conversations - but it looks like the server, client and mail template all have to be on version 8 for it to work.
And as for 2 - your client should beep as new mail arrives (independent of the refresh time) - mine does and has at least from Version 5 (even shows up in the status bar at the bottom of the Notes window). I work off of local replica copies mainly, and the beep is handy to let me know to replicate for latest mail if I am waiting for something from someone. In your Notes client preferences, click on the Mail tab pick general and in the section on the bottom where you set the refresh interval, also make sure "automatically refresh inbox" and "Play sound" are checked.
@Jeftek,
To address your client questions/issues, let me take a stab at it:
1) The F5 key, as pointed out it is not a universal answer and so not likely to get reversed. You CAN with some programs change the way a function key works, at least on my Vista machinet it has this capability, perhaps this would work for you.(It may be part of the keyboard/mouse setup)
2 - Customizing at least under R7 and much more in R8 is key to the Notes client upgrades. You can set fonts, size and other similar items as needed. Also since it is more html friendly, you could just edit the .css files. Refersh when mail arrives, um, Outlook won't do this either, if you are not connected to the server verison of your mail, so this is a nice to have but both Outlook and Notes have a time setting which YOU can choose. Of course your admins may force a limit of time so the server does not fail from a DoS attack from within(Exchange I believe and Domino for sure do this).
Your mail client is not your blackberry and if you set your BES server to check every 10 minutes and your mailbox to 5 you will get it in your mailbox first.
3 - Logon info can be integrated into your Windows password and an agent could be run to hash out all the passwords between the 2 systems. You are only limited by resurces. As to the silly symbols, it is no different than getting ****** when typing in your password on a website. It serves it's purpose to deny those that would scrape your screen for your password.
4 - Auto calendar entry has been in Notes since R7, now in R8 it is more advanced so you can decide to just accept them blindly or set parameters around what to do. I.e if there is a conflict or if you are unavailable what do you wantthe client to do.
5 - Grouping can be setup, it is just a view that one could edit, well with a little more code added. But personally I find that option one of the most frsutrating about Outlook.
@Jeftek,
To address your client questions/issues, let me take a stab at it:
1) The F5 key, as pointed out it is not a universal answer and so not likely to get reversed. You CAN with some programs change the way a function key works, at least on my Vista machinet it has this capability, perhaps this would work for you.(It may be part of the keyboard/mouse setup)
2 - Customizing at least under R7 and much more in R8 is key to the Notes client upgrades. You can set fonts, size and other similar items as needed. Also since it is more html friendly, you could just edit the .css files. Refersh when mail arrives, um, Outlook won't do this either, if you are not connected to the server verison of your mail, so this is a nice to have but both Outlook and Notes have a time setting which YOU can choose. Of course your admins may force a limit of time so the server does not fail from a DoS attack from within(Exchange I believe and Domino for sure do this).
Your mail client is not your blackberry and if you set your BES server to check every 10 minutes and your mailbox to 5 you will get it in your mailbox first.
3 - Logon info can be integrated into your Windows password and an agent could be run to hash out all the passwords between the 2 systems. You are only limited by resurces. As to the silly symbols, it is no different than getting ****** when typing in your password on a website. It serves it's purpose to deny those that would scrape your screen for your password.
4 - Auto calendar entry has been in Notes since R7, now in R8 it is more advanced so you can decide to just accept them blindly or set parameters around what to do. I.e if there is a conflict or if you are unavailable what do you wantthe client to do.
5 - Grouping can be setup, it is just a view that one could edit, well with a little more code added. But personally I find that option one of the most frsutrating about Outlook.
@Keith,
1) So you resolve the issue by remapping the keyboard in the OS, or you remapped it in the Notes client? If I remapped in the OS to fix the Notes issue, it would break all the other apps,no?
2) I thought this might be a "You need to upgrade" thing which makes sense since 6.x is quite old, and I accept that it is going to have limitations. You need the Server and the client to be upgraded to support this ability, or just the client? Is this a typical end user customization, or something that requires Code. As I stated earlier, Notes has been said the application users hate, and admins love, because Admins have all the ability to resolve the issues, while end users don't have that knowledge and suffer through their issues. So I guess I am asking for a codeless customization ability.
3) I meant the goofy Glyphs, not the asteriks :) Supposedly it was put in to alert the user to a spoofed logon box years ago, and not meant to hide the password characters.
4) Do you get this with the client, or do you need the client and server to be 7+? is it just the local DB design?
5) Personal choice of course, but I surely miss this, so I would like to be able to do it again.
@Jeftek,
Glad to help, and yes you would usually need both server and client side upgrades to get some new functionality, for obvious reasons if you think about it. You can't put 20 inch rims on your 16 inch tires.
In my case, I can set the key by product via the utility(not sure if this is an HP laptop piece, wirless keyboard addin or Vista piece I found). But read this reference for greater details and issues about Function keys. Yes if you change one for all, then they all change. http://www.udolpho.com/weblog/?id=00582&title=Killing-F-Lock-ie-restoring-the-function-keys-on-Microsoft-keyboards.
For the Client side customization, you just need the client upgraded, not the server. However your mail file template would need to most likely be updated(I have not tested this so i can not say yes or no) which does not necessarily mean upgarding the whole server but in most cases you wouold do so.
End users, sadly suffer from RTFM syndrome. Or you could just read the help file, search under font or size or something along those lines. You can download an R8 client from this site and play with it at your convenience: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/downloads/ls/lsndad/?S_TACT=105AGX28&S_CMP=TRIALS
The glyphs, well, they were around back then, but not anymore, now they are a color coded keyring which alternates colors :-)
Calendar updates are client side and server side as it is an agent/macro run on the mailbox at the server when turned on.
You can ask Mary Beth Raven about the grouping of emails as she would know more than I. Find her here: http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/marybeth
Keith -
Autoprocess has at least been in since 5, and I'm pretty sure it was in 4.5 but that was a loooong time ago.
In your Mail preferences, Click on Calender & ToDo, and then click on the big Autoprocess tab :-)
If this doesn't get ugly because of the length, here is the online help for version 6.5 (oldest version they have online):
http://www-12.lotus.com/ldd/doc/domino_notes/6.5/help65_client.nsf/2e73cbb2141acefa85256b8700688cea/3c18fb947b8349ed85256d9b00599683?OpenDocument
1. I have Notes8 and when i press f5 it refreshes also with f9.
2. That is taken care of.
3. Still a problem
4. It puts a grey entry in your calendar if you have not accepted or declined. So that is there too, but you must have domino 8 server.
5. Dont know what that is.
If JeffTek does go to the Orlando for the conference, he owes Andrew more than a few drinks for all this help.
I just remember the last Notes-based company I worked for, about 5 years ago. We were 3 versions behind and searching e-mail inbox was impossible, or at least unlocatable in the client's crazy-a** menus. When we finally upgraded to just 2 versions behind, e-mail searching and a web interface were touted as major features.
But I'm impressed that the Notes app I wrote when I was at HP in 1994 could still work today!