Microsoft already trimming Windows 7 features, DirectX 11 on the outs?
By Paul Miller 
posted February 9th 2008 4:10PM
posted February 9th 2008 4:10PM
[Thanks, Isaac]
posted February 9th 2008 4:10PM
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# Fuzzman : Where did you get that information? From someone at MS i guess. Leopard runs fine on machines that where purchased in the days that XM was released so I really wonder how you be so dumb to say you need new hardware for an OSX upgrade!
Engadget, there is a reason why slashdot isn't the top traffic site anymore. Get over your anti-MS bias and try some fair judgements for a change.
I like your good articles, good sense of humor, but at some point, the bad taste this anti MS bias leaves will overcome the sense of humor and good articles.
I agree with you and I also think that their negative attitude to all things Microsoft is spreading to their other posts. Engadget used to be about witty posts and interesting gadgets but these days they just seem to needlessly bash every new product that comes out. Perhaps the old mantra about not saying anything if you haven't got anything nice to say applies here? Of course, that would mean there wouldn't be a lot of content on this site.
i don't detect all these supposed biases... anyway, the main reason i like engadget is that its readers have a sense of humor. slashdot is overflowing with pretension and arrogance. i feel unwelcome, not having the ability to code the linux kernel from memory on a home-built robot.
I think I just had a flashback to WindowsME... And how it sucked soo bad they started work on XP to replace it...
I just had a flashback to Windows... And how they ALWAYS had a new version under development, "sucky" or not.
You have it backwards. IIRC, either Windows 2000 was already supposed to be the first NT-based consumer OS, or XP was and it was taking too long to get out of the door. Either way, ME was created as a stopgap until the NT-based consumer OS was ready.
OpenGL is what I'm interested in, anyway
They're doing it to keep hardware requirements down. This is a bad thing, how?
not a bad thing AT all...meanwhile here's a very good looking Windows XP/Vista shell alternative, coming out to public next week, http://cairoshell.com/ pretty freakin cool, has some features that linux has..haven't tested it myself though but still it looks pimp
I remember some kind of trialware compositing window manager thing for XP too.
..windows users are funny.
What's this? Windows 7 is already being declared the new Vista for 2009. Ewww. I'll still be using Windows XP Pro SP4 by then.
Sorry for the double post, but just wanted to say that I have no idea how my reply to the sub-thread above ended up down here.
Darkest Daze,
Well I have a PowerBook that started with 10.2 Jaguar back in the beginning of 2003 and it's happily running Leopard today. That enough proof for ya?
@"Yours Smugly"
But you have to remember that there was only a year difference from the release of Tiger and Leopard. There were 5-6 between XP and Vista. The difference is that people with 5+ year old machines wanted to run Vista but didn't want to buy a new machine. Anyone who had Tiger and wanted to upgrade to Leopard only had a 1 or so year old machine.
It would be better to compare a computer purchased with OSX 10.1 trying to upgrade to Leopard.
@Darkest Daze: There was a 2,5 year difference between Tiger and Leopard. Tiger was released on April 25. 2005, Leopard on October 29. 2007. But sure, you do have a point. Macs tend to age slower than your average Windows PC.
But IMHO the 6-7 years between XP and Vista don't entirely justify the hyuuuge system requirement bump. I *would* expect Vista to demand more oomph from my PC, just not *that* much.
Man, fricken work on Vista, dumbass Microsoft. I just brought a few licences for my home computers and family - not cheap. It runs fine just as good as XP but in no way should you be working on a new OS already? Ever heard of customer service?
If it's a free upgrade to Vista users then go ahead, but free + M$ doesn't mix to good.
I'm normally a Microsoft fan, but this just pisses me off.
I remember when everyone complained because Vista took 5 years. Now they are working to make that 3 years and peoeple want them to wait...?
Halo 3 took several years to make. They began right after finishing Halo 2. By your argument they should have waited 2 years and then begun.
People confuse me...
Vista is a OS, Halo is a game. Shouldn't compare them. It's different when you spend your money on something and then get no upgrades.
When you say upgrade, do you mean Service Packs? Or features? If they continue to work Vista WHILE working 7, I'm cool with that.
Software, almost more than any other industry is dynamic. You sit on your laurels, you lose. Look what the iPhone did to the smartphone industry. We've seen more activity in the past months than in the past years!
Explanation:
The iPhone expample was to show what happens when you sit on your laurels. It was not referring to any paticular OS.
I guess now would be a good time to point out that Microsoft has more than one employee. So it is possible to have 1 team working on 1 product, while another team supports another product. Also since 1 person doesn't write the entire operating system, just small parts, it is also possible that 1 person can even work on both products.
While I'm pointing things out, operating systems aren't created overnight. Now you know why they've already began work on the next one.
As for the halo thing. Software is software is software. And a game is also pretty hard to make, so yes they can be compared.
Errm, isn't this a good thing? They're not getting rid of DirectX 11, they're just getting rid of the requirement for it on the graphics card to run the OS properly, like DirectX 9 for Vista.
Unless I'm mistaken?
Agreed. Give the gamers for shaders technology if they want it. If they don't need it, they don't have to upgrade.
most likely we'll have a Win7 Basic which will have DX10, and possibly a "Premium" version which will have DX11, Ultimate will probably have DX11 as well, and if this doesn't happen, we'll get it in a service pack, or update, as with Vista and DX10.1.
Thats kinda relief.
Hopefully by then Vista will have fixed itself, so that if Windows 7 sucks like Vista, I can just go Vista for DX10, and hopefully DX11.
Hey Josua. You wouldn't mind elaborating on why Vista sucks would you? Please don't just say that it's slow.
You see, for some of us, we like details on why things suck. We don't just watch Apple ads and say, "Wow. That PC guy is fat. Vista must be slow." :-)
I'll start out with a detailed problem... Microsft decided that they wanted people to have more accurate time frames on how long a file transfer will take. This means that Vista has to continually compute the file size, transfer rate and so forth. This takes processing power which WAY slows down the transfer itself. (Especially USB)
Now it's your turn.
First of all, this is a GOOD thing. It's nice to have choices when dealing with your OS. If DX9 works just fine on Vista (and it does), the feature set and the game/program implementation of special features needs to outweigh the additional costs of those cards (and it doesn't). Regardless, it's still an option. Buy if you think it's a good idea, don't otherwise.
DX 11, unless the Inquirer has additional information (and it doesn't), would only saddle Windows 7 with additional hardware requirements, at a point where it's seeing the difficulty 3rd party vendors are facing in using the capabilities of the DX10 specs. Wouldn't make any sense.
This is not a "lost feature." It's now a non-mandated option which will be implemented by 3rd party hardware and 3rd party software providers. Choice is always a good thing.
"It's nice to have choices when dealing with your OS."
I think I speak for many of us when I say "You have /no/ idea."
I can choose between 3 major desktop environments
7 window managers, two compositing
and any hardware from the PS3 to the N800 to the Blue Gene intel and ppc macs, sparc, itanium, mips...
I think you're just dealing with the wrong OS.
Engadget always does things like this for some reason... They take unreliable info, publish it, and make bad things happen. (remember the AAPL stock problem? I thought you did...)
Engadget, here's a tip: Verify your info BEFORE posting it! Wait until MS weighs in before saying anything! Maybe, just maybe, you'll make more people happy, instead of mad, like you made me mad with this craptastic article.
Engadget, you say that as though they should keep every feature they ever thought of. Come on, do you really expect them to never drop a feature? You think vista is bloated (based on your constant MS bashing which is also ridiculous), yet you bash MS for taking things out of their next system?
>DirectX 10 requirements of Vista were enough of that sort of trouble for one decade.
Um what are those requirements exactly? A DX 10 card isn't required to run vista and many games run faster under DX 9 on Vista than 10. What seems to be starting early is FUD.
yes more vista
They do have a pretty theme.. looks decent with compiz fusion, though there are better.
I have to say that's all the Vista I care for. Next.
First of all I would like to hear a round of applause for Microsoft, not for their ability to make software but for their ability to F it up all the time. It provides IT's with hours upon hours of work!!! There has always been problems with various brands of software, Linux flavors, apple, and windows included. However, Microsoft has taken the largest slice of the pie. This angst that it creates with users eventually takes form and the free source community continues to grow. So again I thank Microsoft for its continuing "contribution." But I sure as hell wont run their software on anything of consequence....
Vista could have had all those features cut with no serious problems if only MS hadn't have built them up as such game changing features.
MS needs to leave more truely beta features in the research department until they are ready to be fully deployed into a new build and THEN talk about them.
Yall that are bashing Vista & OS X how about yall go build an OS and get every single thing right the first time and then bitch all you want about the OS's until then STFU, if you can't do better dont say nothing about how there software is where's yours.
and FYI I have Windows, Mac OSX, Linux and Solaris PC's say something.
forgot the mention Y'all bashing MS would y'all rather have Microsoft make their own computers ? or instead rely on others think about how it would be if Apple and Microsoft both made their own computers ? Imagine if windows ran on Microsoft Computers and then think about now which would you prefer, Windows would probably be very different if that was the case and how many of y'all have ever tried other OS's other than Windows, OSX or a distro of linux there are others you know; until you have tried everything how can anything of you all say what is better or worse.
Microsoft needs to stop trying to sell their OS to every computer owner and list TRUE system requirements. If they raised the minimum required specs for Vista, I'm sure they would've had far fewer complaints.
Yah well I'm still waiting for that instant restart feature to be reenabled in Leopard. For god sake Apple left the damn Server in Bootcamp when you install the drivers for Windows.
Dear Engadget,
Get bent. No OS feature set survives contact with the real world. Considering that Windows 11 is hardly a gleam in MS's eye its hard to start saying they are trimming features when they haven't even announced the damn features that are going to ship with it. Fracking fanboi haters. I'm getting real sick of them. You don't like it go build your own damn OS and stop trash taking MS....what you say you are nothing more then armchair annalists? You say you don't don't have the faintest clue what goes into a development cycle? You say that you trash talk to stir up site hits...
Yah and I say you guys need to stop this shit and just report on stuff....not try and make some glib comment on what it means to life, the universe, and the world at large. You ain't being cute. You aren't being cool. You're just being annoying.
Hey, I'm all for a few added features and lots of fixes for Vista in Windows 7. It has a lot of potential, but I would rather wait another year or two and get another XP then get another ME.
Also, to put this out there: Windows users, get over Apple and Linux. Apple and Linux users, get over each other and Windows. It's all a huge fight about who is right and who is wrong, when I've used all three. If you need an inexpensive OS with maximum customization and you know how to do it, Linux. If you need an OS with a pretty box to put it in, ease of use, and slight customization, go Apple. If you need an OS with a pretty box, hardware customization, and you already know how to use it, Windows. The reason why Apple is getting all this hype is because it has a slightly smaller learning curve for basic to intermediate use than Linux or Windows.
I think that people who haven't tried anything but what they use now shouldn't even open their mouths about this "OS War" because they have no clue what they're talking about.
IMHO, an OS needs to be built around a purpose, not around the highest priced technology. I have a dual xeon 1.7ghz machine and a dual 2.4ghz machine, both will run vista fine, however I have no need for all the eye candy, pixel shading, or a "gadget" bar. SO I still run xp or linux on my machines. People are allowing the industry to tell them what they need instead of the other way around. The bottom line is that most companies that run specialized software sometimes "CAN'T" upgrade. For instance I know of a few companies that use software that only works on windows 2000. So they have to stick with the old OS or find another solution.
Either way, their are usually alternatives that will run on a reasonably quick machine.
Sometimes I just want to scream.
ONE - there hasn't been ANY feature list for Win7. There hasn't been any set release date. All you've seen are a few screen shots of an about box and suddenly we're all experts on what'll be in or out of the release in two or three years.
By the release, the entire hardware world will be different. The things you're arguing about now WON'T MATTER.
TWO - You can't compare MacOS and Windows so easily. Apple only has to support ONE computer - that they themselves make. Microsoft has to support literally tens of thousands of products they have no control over. Yes, you can argue that makes Apples better - but the downside is that you get much less choice.
And sorry Apple fans - get over it - there are tons of devices that don't support Linux OR MacOS. You personally may be ok without them, but that's your choice. We may not agree or we may have different needs.
THREE - Just because you have some other OS that you've managed to rearrange your workflow to fit doesn't mean it's actually a good replacement. It's good to have alternatives - but only if they actually do what you want. A hammer does not make a good screwdriver, even if they're both tools.
FOUR - Apple does NOT use 'better quality parts'. That myth just won't die. They may use better DESIGN - but parts makers do NOT make special 'Apple' components that are better than the ones they sell to PC makers.
Let's not forget that Apple blows it sometimes too. People forget that Apple left off a five cent capacitor on their old ADB design that could fry the ADB controller if you pulled the cable while powered.
FIVE - There isn't ONE PC maker. Whenever we get into this discussion - it always plays as Apple vs PC as if there's just one PC maker. There are over fifty PC makers and over a dozen motherboard makers. Some turn out amazing products easily the equal of Apple, some turn out crap.
Also, some PC makers take the time to build well constructed Windows environments and spend time verifying and preinstalling all drivers for their internal hardware. These PCs are great. Some just throw a bunch of parts in a box and a CD with the drivers right from the parts makers and leaves it up to you to endure it all. You can't assume they're all the same.
SIX - No, Leopard does NOT run on all old Macs. I have an iBook and a G4/AGP - and Leopard's installer CRASHES on these machines. Now, to be honest, these are OLD Macs, so I don't hold it against Apple - but neither do I hold it against Microsoft if my eight year old PC can't run Vista.
On the other hand, I can UPGRADE those PCs easily and cheaply, which is something I can't do with a Mac.
The fact is that Vista as a functioning OS runs on most PCs that are P4 or better. If you want the eyecandy, you might need a better video card - and it's supported on video cards as cheap as $50 - but it's optional and hardly essential for a computer user. You also need more memory - but in case you don't check out the ads, memory is cheap! 1GB is $50. And more memory never hurts.
On the other hand - you can get a completely new PC with the latest video and tons of memory and hard drive (not to mention a faster CPU) for as little as $399, and that's something Apple can't beat.
SEVEN - Linux people. Get over the fact that most PCs come with Windows. Like it or not, that's what most people want and bitching about that is infantile. You want to change it - build an OS people actually want that has a high enough level of compatibility with existing apps.
The so called 'windows tax' is a figment of your imagination - or rather a lack of imagination. There are LOTS of PC makers who offer OS-less systems. If Linux is so easy to use and so much better - then you won't mind installing it on a bare system... right? And a lot of the smaller PC makers will install whatever you want on their systems. They don't care.
EIGHT - Kids - in case you missed it - Engadget gets paid by the hit. So when there's a slow news day (which is fairly often these days, it seems), they post something they KNOW will rile up the fanboys and get a flamewar going. You're playing right into their hands.
Then again, why not? Apple fans act as unpaid walking ads for Apple products. Linux fans do the same for their cause celebre. Windows fans - which, let's face it, was an oxymoron before all the Windows bashing became the game of the day in places like this, just sigh and get tired of all the DRAMA.
Welcome to paradise, children.
DX11? We have not yet even seen the full potential for DX10. I am not too distraught.
Windows7 is vista recycled.