Apple TV (take 2), take two
By Ryan Block 
posted Feb 12th 2008 4:12PM
posted Feb 12th 2008 4:12PM
- The update itself is under 200MB and took us under five minutes to download, but over ten minutes to install. Our first try failed out. Also, get used to seeing that loading bar screen, it cycled through about five times for us.
- Yep, that's a slick new video that it opens with.
- Did someone say 1080p output? Oh yes, it's finally enabled!
- Yep, it's officially software version 2.0.
- Although manually inputting your Apple ID with the remote is a pain, renting movies is absolutely a snap.
- Our HD movie was ready for playback within a minute of starting the download. Very nice.
- Picture quality is pretty good. Not amazing, but pretty good.
- Flickr integration works well (unlike on stage at Macworld), but there's no way to aggregate your contact lists's photos to your ATV. It's on a single contact basis only, meaning you can only look at your own or any one other user's photos at a time. Kind of a bummer in that regard.
- Plenty more details to be found here and here, as well as an informative chart of how downloads works here.
Let the Hating begin!
The new podcast section is absolutely brilliant. I love the favorites section. If only the major Networks would enable this kind of broadcasting. I'll even watch the ads!
No kidding.
I've long thought that if abc/nbc would just podcast their "free" shows, commercials and all, i'd definitely subscribe. ...but that's too simple. No way to FORCE people to watch the adds.
Call me crazy, but how come it's not recognizing my Flickr contact name?
I had the same problem. I thought maybe I should enter my yahoo id I log into Flickr with. But its the nickname you use on your account. So load the first page of your Flickr photos. It will say "Nickname's Photos" where 'Nickname' is whatever you chose for your account. Thats what you will have to enter on the Apple TV page.
I'm having the same issue too. Checked my permission settings and everything seems ok.
@Colin
I've tried that too and it still didn't work. I even tried to change my contact name with no luck.
Found the answer. I needed to make my profile visible to Flickr search.
What do you mean 1080p output???? Can you please clarify for me once and for all: Are the Apple HD movie rentals in 1080p or not???
The rentals are still 720p, but it can output at 1080p, and a variety of other formats based on that screenshot.
Apple TV rents HD movies in 720p24 format (i.e. 1280x720 pixels at 24 frames per second).
However, the Apple TV device can be set to output 720p60 or even 1080p60 where it adds 3:2 timing (to fit 24 into 60) and upscales the resolution (prolly using simple interpolation).
you have the menus, upscaling of video and photos all use the 1080p.
Yeah, the rentals are NOT 1080p. What good is 1080p output if they don't support any content with it?
AppleTV is not capable of displaying 1080p (or 1080i). All the graphics are 720p, if you set it to 1080p output, it is just scaling them up.
So no, the movies aren't in 1080p, even the UI isn't in 1080p. If you use the slide show to view your 10mp photos, even THOSE aren't in 1080p.
None of the "HD" download services are really HD. They can say they are 1080p, but the bitrates are NOWHERE near close to what you get on the disc formats. Added to that, many of the HD downloads don't even carry anything better than stereo output. It might be convenient, but it ain't HD.
These movie downloads are not "HD". Call them DVD+. They are nowhere near the bitrate you get with the disc formats. And in many cases, all you get is stero sound. Apple and all of the other download services need to stop calling them HD.
@ why not the LS2/LS7?
The Apple TV is quite capable of displaying a 1080p signal (1920x1080 @ 60Hz), moreover, v2 now includes colorspace selections of YCbCr, High RGB or Low RGB too.
With 1080p output the GUI is rendered at 1920x1080 and not 720p and upscaled, with a 1080p screen one can clearly see the difference.
However, the HD movies are 720p which are upscaled to 1080p if this is set as output resolution. I think they look pretty good, not as sweet as HD DVD / Blu-ray but certainly better than most broadcast television (prolly even 720p HD channels).
The movies are not 1080P, but the output from the appleTV is. I should also note, that I don't have a 1080p set, and that option doesn't show up in my settings.
Sorry Jim, Apple TV output is 720p. You can connect it to a 1080p display but the output signal does not support 1080p: from www.apple.com/appletv/specs.html ...
Video formats supported
* H.264 and protected H.264 (from iTunes Store): Up to 5 Mbps, Progressive Main Profile (CAVLC) with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps (maximum resolution: 1280 by 720 pixels at 24 fps, 960 by 540 pixels at 30 fps) in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file formats
* iTunes Store purchased video: 320 by 240 pixels, 640 by 480 pixels, 720 by 480 pixels (anamorphic), or high-definition 720p
* MPEG-4: Up to 3 Mbps, Simple Profile with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps (maximum resolution: 720 by 432 pixels at 30 fps) in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file formats
If it is not outputting at 1080p, how do you explain picture 6 of Engadgets attached gallery.
@ John
All that I am sure is correct from the apple site. But it clearly has an output setting on the ATV for 1080P in the Display Properties of the ATV, and TV's are being reported as outputting at 1080p. Whether or not those specs on the Apple site are not updated is beyond me.
Although the TV section says this:
Compatible with enhanced-definition or high-definition widescreen TVs capable of 1080p/1080i 60/50Hz, 720p 60/50Hz, 576p 50Hz (PAL format), or 480p 60Hz, including ...
http://www.apple.com/appletv/specs.html
So I gather it will upconvert content to 1080p output if needed. It cannot decode 1080 however. I don't know why you'd want the AppleTV to do the upconverting instead of your 1080p set but whatever works I guess.
"I don't know why you'd want the AppleTV to do the upconverting instead of your 1080p set but whatever works I guess."
Because A) TVs scalers are not usually very good and B) The Apple TV menus will look much nicer when run at the native resolution.
It's not all about the video. The ATV shows pictures from your iPhoto library, which would benefit from 1080p.
TV scalers aren't any good?
My TV cost $3,000, you really think it doesn't have as good a scaler as a $250 AppleTV?
What kind of stupid thinking is that?
Scaling is easy, and easy to do well. Hell, even cheap LCD computer displays have scalers in them!
@ why not the LS2/LS7?
Yes, most tv scalers use simple interpolation to 'upscale', which causes 'ringing' artefacts and other PQ problems.
This is why there is a market for external video processors, such as the Lumagen Radiance, that offer features such as "ring free scaling".
Sure, bringing all the studios into AppleTV was easy for El Jobso, now if he manages to add all the PrOn studios as well without anyone screaming for bloody murder, I'll build his cathedral to worship him myself.
He could set up his own pr0n studio and call it El Jobso
Hows the quality of the hd movie?
High-Definition.
Let the Loving begin!
Can someone comment on the following:
can you play a video playlist from itunes on a remote computer?
can you add an external hard drive to the AppleTV? If not, we still have to have the computer running 24/7.
I live overseas. Will the AppleTV download DRM content as long as I have a US account for purchase? Or is Hollywood/Apple sniffing out my IP address and location to slap my wrists?
Founder - ATV will play any playlist you can set up with iTunes. Audio, Video, or mixed.
All - I just took my Blockbuster card out of my wallet and put it in a drawer where I expect it will remain. I will still buy the odd Blue-Ray DVD in some cases - like the Blade Runner re-issue and the TV shows I can't yet get on ATV (Heroes).
Can someone verify whether Apple TV can now accept 1080p files or not? The 1080p option either means that it upconverts to 1080p or that you can now copy, say, a 1920 x 1080 H.264 MP4 file and it will play in full resolution. I don't want people to answer with speculation. I only want to hear from people who have tried it. Speculation can only go so far.
I would have liked some optimizations so the AppleTV would be able to playback 720/30p instead of just 24p. I mean, I have an HD camera, and Apple asks me with this product to not only drop to 720p, but also to drop the frame rate to something that was not meant to be. I don't care much about the lack of 1080p content support, but 30fps is a must for me.
Can you run the HDMI signal through a receiver or do you need to connect directly to the TV?
Yes HDMI straight to your 7.1 DD receiver. Both Audio and Video through HDMI. The sound of DD is simply awesome. I have dual subs and the house just freaking rocks.
AppleTV cannot do 7.1 over HDMI. This would require lossless audio, which it doesn't support. It can only do lossy compressed audio, Dolby Digital, which only goes to 5.1. It goes to 6.1 with DD-EX, but I don't think Apple TV supports it.
DD 5.1 is fine, I wouldn't say I'm blown away with it since I first had it on LaserDisc 14 years ago. I would rather have lossless audio (5.1 or 7.1), but my amp doesn't support it.
Does it play xvid and x264 .mkv yet?
No, it does not play formats that are almost exclusively used for pirated movies.
No, it doesn't play any kind of format that isn't there specifically to line Apple's pockets further.
Can someone tell me how it works with shared iTunes music from another computer, and does it use AirTunes? I'd like to know if it shows album art and playlist information correctly when using a shared library. Thanks!
I believe all your questions are Yes. I can see my playlist, albums, artwork, podcast, HD PodCast...
http://www.apple.com/appletv/features.html#music
moving beyond the output - by the way adding 3:2 pulldown to 24 makes for 30 frames a second/60 fields a second not 60 frames - I have a different question.
Has anybody found an SD movie you can buy? The Engadget handy guide says you can buy SD movies through the Apple TV and I don't see any you can. Was this wrong or have I just been unlucky?
I didn't know that Airtunes was going to work both ways! I am so happy right now. Streaming my beloved KCRW through the ATV without my APE. The update was worth that alone to me!
I updated my AppleTV to the new version around 1200 noon pacific time and its pretty sweet so far. It seems to load streaming data better than earlier version. I tested out my .mac 960x540 video gallery. If you have appleTV 2.0 you can check out my gallery using name: davidwpetersen. Videos look sweet on the big screen. This is the sweetest way to share video in the almost HD format. I am a big HD fan so this download and rental thing may really start to put even more pressure on physical media formats.
Also GOWEN i can't find anyway to buy a movie from AppleTV interface either.
I use component cables so before I rent an HD movie does anyone know if HD rental require an HDMI connection or does component also allow HD video rentals?
@gowen
Are you trying to correct me? Next time why don't you try with something accurate?
3:2 sequence converts 24 frames per second into 60. The odd number frames are repeated three times, and the even numbers twice. You obviously need a visual explanation so here it is, 24 frames into 60:
24 frames in 3:2 pattern (resulting in 60):
01-01-01-02-02-03-03-03-04-04-05-05-05-06-06-07-07-07-08-08-09-09-09-10-10-11-11-11-12-12-13-13-13-14-14-15-15-15-16-16-17-17-17-18-18-19-19-19-20-20-21-21-21-22-22-23-23-23-24-24
60 frames in 1:1 pattern (for comparison):
01-02-03-04-05-06-07-08-09-10-11-12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-20-21-22-23-24-25-26-26-27-28-29-30-31-32-33-34-35-36-37-38-39-40-41-42-43-44-45-46-47-48-49-50-51-52-53-54-55-56-57-58-59-60
* There are no fields here, they are from the "interlaced" 3:2 pulldown which converts 60 interlaced fields into 24 progressive frames or vice versa.
Or course, I might be wrong and you are right ... please explain how "adding 3:2 pulldown to 24 makes for 30 frames a second/60 fields a second not 60 frames" works?
OMG, Apple! Take 2 is freakin' fantastic and well worth the wait!!! And, thanks for finally adding AirTunes to AppleTV! Not being able to control the AppleTV via iTunes from my computer was a feature ATV Take 1 was solely lacking. But, no more. Kudos, Apple, on a job well done.
Is there any way to change the way it organizes my tv shows? I liked it better when it didn't just throw a giant list of episodes at me.
Ok, yes there is. By default it has you arranging by date, just switch it to show and it lays out much better in my opinion. Good to know it was just a case of my user error. ;)
Can anyone confirm that there are 1000 movies or more???[As Jobs indicated in his keynote]
The most important part of this update to me was the amount of content. Xbox live marketplace works great for me but only having access to 300 decent movies is what kills me.
Does Take 2 still allow the AppleTV to work with SD televisions (480i)?
Very nice, now if they can just get a cablecard in there for HDTV recording, I'd never leave the house....wait then I *could* leave the house.
Wish Front Row was updated with the same interface.
It was in Leopard, if you're still using Tiger then I don't think you'll get the update, but Leopard has had it since it was released.
Im talking about the interface. Im on Leopard, but the Front Row's interface is different from the promos im seeing of ATV.
How much did you go over on your Time Warner CAP after watching 1 HD movie? The rental is $5, but the bandwidth over usage is another $5.
would anyone happen to know if OS X can still be installed on a Apple Tv when it has Take 2 on it?
Not yet man, this stuff takes time. Check out the familiar mac sites (including engadgets sister, www.tuaw.com for updated info when it comes... awkwardtv.com / .net works as well.)
Did the update (have 3 apple TV's). So far I am NOT impressed, even though I am not going to use it would have been nice if the Canadian users would be able to rent movies as well.
Over all still loving the ATV with 902 movies you can go wrong....
I don't understand how Ryan was able to get his HD movie watchable "within a minute."
I rented a HD movie at 8:00 and and was hoping I would be able to watch it tonight Unfortunately after around 25 minutes it was still not ready after reaching 11% downloaded. Booo!
Either this is server overload on a heavy night of the release, or they need to adjust the buffer.
It's probably your ISP or a bottleneck in routing somewhere. The update took about a minute to download for me and I was able to start watching Night Watch (HD) about a minute after I rented when at 2%
The only difficult decision is if it's worth getting rid of my 1.2(Safe) FW I have installed.. and my various programs... Like NitoTV... that allow me to rip movies to an external and stream them wirelessly to my aTV...
Even if you are getting 1080p, make no mistake about it, you are not getting anything close to HD with AppleTV. The bitrate is nowhere near what you get on a Blu-ray or HDVD disc. All of these movie download services need to stop calling it HD, because none of them are delivering anything close to what the disc formats are pulling.
What's the deal with hard drive space now? We have 2 computers to stream from. Should we get the 160gb or is the 40gb enough? The computers are a few years old and don't have the older wireless capabilities.
Crap, now I can't sync AND stream from the same computer. Has anyone else noticed that after the update?
@ dmklass
You can sync and stream from the same computer. Now, the Apple TV now seems to automatically recognize if your synced computer is on and iTunes is open, rather than you having to go into the "Sources" menu to choose that computer. As per usual, turning off your computer will give you only the synced items, turning it back on will allow you to stream content.
If you're synced computer is on and none of your content is showing (meaning, none of the content you want to stream), make sure that whatever you want to stream is checked in iTunes. Prior version would stream both checked and unchecked content, no matter the TV or Movie settings for your Apple TV on iTunes. But in Take 2 I couldn't get my TV Shows or Movies to show up to stream unless they were checked.
I'm very pleased to find that I can now stream internet radio after applying this update by creating playlists with the stream URLs. I had heard about this trick with the old firmware but it never worked for me.
Oddly, I find that I'm not offered 1080p in the list of resolutions even though my Westinghouse LVM-42w2 claims (a lot) to be 1080p and I have the ATV directly connected to the panel via HDMI. Gee, could this be YET ANOTHER HDMI handshaking problem? I mean, that would be unprecedented.
Even though your TV is a 1080p capable TV it doesn't mean the HDMI port you're hooking your AppleTV into is. If you have more than one HDMI port chances are you've chosen the wrong one. Many TV manufacturers only put one or two capable inputs on their displays. Read your manual.
After a quick glance it seems your TV supports 1080p through DVI and Component video. Since it has 2 you should consult your manual to find out which one supports the signal, or purchase an HDMI to DVI adapter so you can take advantage of the 1080p.
Wow, good catch, thanks. I never would have guessed that the HDMI input would be 1080i-only. However, on checking the fine print in the back of the manual it does appear that the only connector to support 1080p is DVI1.
This attempt after iphone is worth the try.
Wow, the max bitrate for H.264 video is 5 mbps.
I'm watching Sunshine on BluRay right now and the bitrate in the slowest spots is 17mbps. It hovers around 22mbps, and peaks at about 34mbps. And this disc is also using H.264 (AVC).
Even considering that this disc is 1080p instead of 720p and thus has twice the spatial resolution, the content on AppleTV's max bitrate measured per pixel pushed is still half of the minimum bitrate I see on BluRay and one quarter of the max I see on BluRay.
"Even considering that this disc is 1080p instead of 720p and thus has twice the spatial resolution, the content on AppleTV's max bitrate measured per pixel pushed is still half of the minimum bitrate I see on BluRay and one quarter of the max I see on BluRay."
You have to remember that the bit rate on the disc has to include all the audio options and subtitles - a HD disk works like a CD in that it encodes the whole enchilada into a single stream. If you strip out lossless audio and a couple of 5.1 alternate language tracks, the effective bit rate is much less than what you're seeing.
When you say CD, I guess you mean DVD.
And I don't think this figure includes audio bandwidth, especially formats I'm not hearing and my amp can't even reproduce. I say this mostly because the audio bitrate is listed separately next to the video bitrate.
Given that BluRays actual max bitrate during playback is 48mbit (oddly, the minimum speed for a BluRay drive is 1.5X, not 1X), I don't think it's ridiculous to say that when I see 34mbit up there it doesn't mean the video is at 34mbit (the max video bitrate alone for BluRay is listed at 40mbit).
If only MediaPortal could get their interface half as polished and stable as this.
Sigh.
I am just glad they have finally added airport. This was an unexpected addition. I can now get that airport express out of the wall!
It still doesn't compare to Windows Media Center, but having competition is great. It's going to force MS to expand more on their WMC platform.
Nice stuff Apple.
Anyone know how I can take advantage of playing back my own movies/videos with 5.1?
to Vanillacide from GOWEN
I think you have a number of things mixed up. I have worked in the efx side of TV/film for 25 years and I have not come across your version of this ever. Here is a link to the Quantel digital fact book. http://www.quantel.com/site/en.nsf/html/library_dfb
It explains all of the ways that tv formats work. Quickly, 3:2 pull down is what is applied to film shot at 24 - the traditional frame rate for film production - frames a second to make it into video for TV which in America runs at 30fps. It involves a mixture of 'clean' frames and additional frames made out of a field from the previous frame and a field from the following frame. The result is every film based second that ends up on SD tv has 6 frames which are 'made up' and can be a little soft and, worst case, even be a mixture of two scenes.
I think you both (Vanillacide and Gowen) are right... Vanillacide said "3:2 sequence converts 24 frames per second into 60." which is correct but could be clearer if he said "60 fields per second" because his sentence structure implies "frames per second" which is not correct. And Gowen is right because during display the TV de-interlaces the video from its 60 fields per second back to its 30 frames per second. So the 3:2 conversion does convert 24 frame/sec video to 30 frame/sec video which is also 60 field/sec video.
My AppleTV, set to 1080p, plugged by HDMI into a 1080p TV, does indeed output a 1080p signal. However, unlike the Playstation 3 sitting right next to it also plugged into the same 1080p TV by HDMI, the menus DO NOT look like they are 1080p. The Playstation 3 is sharp, 1:1 pixel mapping, truly amazing. The AppleTV really does look like the menus are actually more like 720p being upscaled to 1080p.
Logically, if it can physically output 1080p (confirmed by the TV @ 60hz), and upscale to 1080p, and if the scaling is not done by hardware AFTER the rendering stage, then nothing theoretically prevents Apple from making the menus true 1080p. But I have a feeling, from what my eyes can see, that the menus are NOT 1080p.
Just my two cents.
The following was found at the AwkwardTV Wiki site and implies that 1080p is upconversion in the output hardware, not native 1080p. This would matter specifically for photos being displayed meaning that your photos are rendered at 1280x720 by the AppleTV and then upconverted by the AppleTV to 1920x1080. This upconversion could have been done by your TV as well and who knows which would look better.
Here's AwkwardTV Wiki quoting AppleInsider:
"The update actually includes three software upgrades:
* An EFI firmware update.
* A firmware update for the Apple TV's HDMI video hardware that enables 1080p output through upconversion.
* The new Take Two menus and interface with support for HD downloads, rentals, AirTunes and more."
Just to clear up what people are saying about 1080p output, because I don't see the actual answer in here:
The AppleTV's maximum output resolution, even under v2, is 1280x800. This is a hardware maximum and no amount of software updates are going to change it. This applies to pictures, videos, whatever - you are not going above that. What this update has done is turned on HDMI's ability to output 1080p. In other words, the AppleTV will do 1080p upscaling. Whether this matters at all, I don't know (the only review I read which referenced this said that it did not).
watching Diggnation High Def
using the HDMI connector,
if you switch the Apple TV video output
to 1080 the Revision3 logo gets cut in half....
the image/picture doesn't fit on the screen of my
Samsung DLP. if I go to 720 instead the image still looks
good and it fits "right" and Revision3 in the
bottom right corner is not cut off/cropped.
wierdness.....
I like what they've done for podcasts,
don't like how the photos are handled now.
movie rentals are great, the HD ones are pretty good
even though they're just at 720 I don't mind at all
for the convenience and cost.
am I the only one that wishes the remote was programable
so I could control the volume of my tv set? so the +/-
would adjust volume.... that'd be super..... when I'm watching
a podcast and wanna bump up the volume I instinctively go