Ask Engadget HD: Is it finally safe to buy a Blu-ray player?
By Darren Murph 
posted February 13th 2008 12:00PM
posted February 13th 2008 12:00PM
"I've been holding off on buying a high-definition player of any kind until prices settled down a bit and one format looked to be in command. I realize a combo player would solve the dilemma, but since I'm looking to support one format or the other, I'm beginning to think now is a good time to finally buy a Blu-ray player. Is that the general consensus?"
Well, you heard the man -- is it? If you were still an outsider in this drawn out battle and were just dying to get in, would you take the plunge and pick up a BD player? Or would you store your wallet far, far away until the dust settled a bit more? Sound off below!
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Until there is only one format on store shelves, it isn't safe...
Not so... there were still beta tapes available on store shelves long after VHS won that war, also you can still buy VHS tapes even though that format is dead, so judging by shelf space is irrelevant. I think that the question posed is whether or not BD players will be a waste of money, or if they still have to worry about HD DVD making a comeback and winning the war.
I'm still waiting for an ethernet connection so I don't have to burn a cd or dvd to update firmware.
I think most players have this already... I have it in my POS BD-P1400 and let me tell you, it doesn't do any good if the updates don't fix anything.
On a side note: Does anyone find it ironic that the general attitude is, wait until the profile 2.0 comes out? When Warner was making their decision, they wanted to choose a format that would give the highest probability for HDM to become adopted and quickest to get to mass market.
Instead we went from "I'm waiting because I don't know which format will win" to "I'm waiting for Profile 2.0", in the end its still "I'm waiting..."
Moot point because Profile 2.0 will be out soon? Take a hypothetical scenario that Warner went HD-DVD... Studio exclusivity and Disc size is a moot point because Fox and Disney will soon go HD-DVD and TLS51 will be the new standard disc. See the similarity? Morons...
The fact is, the architecture oh HD-DVD will not change and there would be no "Waiting for TLS51" because it would use the same damn architecture! Reader compatibility? Sure, but the architecture would not change and personally my "shit" (1080i, HD-A2) player does a better job then my "shit" (low quality, BD-P1400) player. In both cases they are shit but one cost $140 and the other $250.
So tell me Warner, was it a good idea to go Blu-ray exclusive?
Um, mlody11, one major flaw with your Warner argument. Warner started exclusive to HD DVD, then went neutral, and still HD DVD was getting clobbered by Blu-ray. If they had gone to HD DVD, at best there would have been a prolonged stalemate in the format war. That's exactly what they said they wanted to avoid.
I'm only saying wait for 2.0 (if you don't want a PS3) because it seems that most forum members want to ensure their player meets all the specs. I personally think BD-Live is going to be mostly a waste of time, like the current examples of Internet-enabled titles on HD DVD that let you buy crappy licensed merchandise using your HD DVD player. Oooooh, what a wonderful use of the technology! Not.
"Um, mlody11, one major flaw with your Warner argument. Warner started exclusive to HD DVD..."
I don't see how that affects anything in my argument. I did not say, Warner should have gone HD DVD exclusive... I am saying they should have stayed neutral and let the formats kill each other, the result would be the same as it is, execept the price war would rage on. I am not implying "No more BOGOS!" or "BD player price will now rise!"... I am stating that the pressure is less and now there is less reason to push hard on the price.
Whatever the reason for waiting, most of us do not want an incomplete player. If a company released a car and said, well it drives, has brakes and has a roof but we didn't have time to paint it or add a radio to it. Would you buy it even though it has 250 hp vs a car that looks nice and shiny and has 200 hp? I'm not implying HD DVD is better, but to many consumers it is said to be "complete" and "ready."
mldy1 "tls51".. Bluray could just as easily come out with their quad-layer 100GB format.
The bottom line is HD-DVD is DEAD. Completely dead. Toshiba probably is halting production by now.
As for buying a BD player, Yes! Just make sure you get a profile 1.1 WITH an ethernet port or Wifi.
AFAIK, the only think "profile 2.0" does is require a network connection. So if you buy a profile 1.1 with a network connection, then you should be good to go.
I apologize in advance for this LONG POST. Please bear with me and read it all.
To: Truth Teller & nfinity
Wow Truth Teller & nfinity you guys are really pathetic.
I usually do NOT say this because I support personal rights, etc...but you really need to just stfu.
You're full of sh*t. Its pretty clear now to everyone that you're talking out of your ass and just saying random statements that don't really hold any weight.
I think its time for the ban. Like seriously. If you can't be realistic and see how unlikely any sort of comeback is for HD DVD at this point you truly are insane.
Wasn't you a few weeks ago that was claiming that Netflix is ALL that matters since HD DVD gets a lot of revenue (or profit don't remember which is more important to yoU) from renting there?
Now you and nfinity claim that Netflix doesn't matter? That this movie will take a long time (even though there are signs they will drop HD DVD as soon as possible given their emails to current users).
Plus since supposedly HD DVD owners are cancelling their subscriptions it'll be that much EASIER for Netflix to phase out HD DVD and move to Bluray exclusively.
Now onto Best Buy. I live in Raleigh, NC. When you walk in theres a 2 rows of Movie racks. The 1st one is for SD DVD's I believe. Its an average rack. Behind it but TWICE the lenght is the HD Movie rack. Now just a few days the BLURAY Section was BEHIND the DVD rack. As in it was hidden by the DVD section. On the other hand the HD DVD section (with all the Red galore) was out in THE OPEN and clearly visible to all.
I walked in yesterday and the situation was reversed. TO make it even more clear how Bluray is now the dominant format that Best Buy is pushing to the consumer they've taken away some shelves from the HD DVD side. Now 1/2 of that 2nd Row of Movies is full of VISIBLE Bluray Movies and 1/3 of the HIDDEN HD DVD side is NOW Bluray.
You can't argue against the numbers. You can't argue against the events that are taken place. Especially when your ONLY argument is that they were bribed. Oh by the way I'm sure you know that Dreameworks or Universal was bribed to right? So why is okay for the HD DVD camp to do that and NOT okay for Bluray?
Finally as for the price of this player...WHO CARES!? You've made the argument before that PRICE is all that matters right? Well if thats the case why isn't HD DVD winning? Why is HD DVD basically DEAD?
Seriously you need to face reality. I was a fence sitter for a long time and I was leaning towards HD DVD (mostly out of hate for sony) but its clear that the majority of consumers favor Bluray. Given the bigger space, more movies choose from, recent announcments by various groups/companies, and the arrival of Profile 2.0 Players (which hopefully is the FINAL Standard OR VERY CLOSE to it) I can say that I'm 100% comfortable with purchasing Bluray Movies right now.
Once again I say this as an average consumer from Raleigh, NC. Toshiba has no one to blame but itself. They hardly did any type of advertising to promote HD DVD. And they never really took the whole notion that they were at "war" with Bluray seriously enough IMO.
And look what it got them...HD DVD is DEAD. PERIOD. Honestly its time to move on folks.
WTF?!
@John B
Ditto.
Oops, I think this was a dupe of a post from the Panasonic DMP-BD50 thread.
http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/02/12/panasonics-dmp-bd50-gets-specd-released-in-europe/
I wonder if this was a mistake or some of the troll posts got deleted?
Wow. CassilineKnight goes on the "psycho: ignore" list.
You do realize that neither TT nor Nfinity has posted to this thread, don't you Mr. "Personal Rights"? It's one thing to actively disagree with a person; it's another to launch an unprovoked, crazy-homeless-man diatribe for no apparent reason.
But sure, apologize because it's long...
There you go.. how can you argue with that right there.. shows you the mental state of most Blu-Ray supporters..
Hey dudes.. go buy a crappy Blu-Ray player for $400 with unfinished features.. It's your right..go and buy movies at $30 you'll probably double and triple dip because of features and other garbage.
Anyone can recommend this format on account of movies.. if it's on your concious that you know you are supporting something that your friend or family will have to rebuy, please, nobody is stopping you.
The ONLY problem I have with this whole thing is the notion that in a world with Xbox 360/PS3/Wii and PSP/UMD vs Nintendo DS, iPod vs Creative Zen (where the content is separated AGAIN because of technology differences), iTunes vs Amazon Unbox, DVDs in FullSCreen, Widescreen and 5 other versions of the same movie, where retailers and everyone else stocking everything everywhere, now suddenly HD DVD is the anti-christ and we need only Blu-Ray. It's completely ridiculous.
I mean you either REALLY have to be brainwashed to not see the reason or I really don't know what the problem is with some people.
All we ever said was, hey, you go ahead and buy Blu-Ray and we'll be buying HD DVD. Eventually both formats would be supported just like Xbox 360 or PS3 or Wii games or numerours other examples. I mean how much time do you need a gaming studio needs to spend to port a game from Xbox 360 to a dead last PS3 console and how much money it takes when they KNOW they'll sell 4 times less copies of the game.
No, it's obvious that THE ONLY reason, HD DVD must DIE is because it's superior technology that would fly past through Blu-Ray if given fair market.
As I said, this thing is ripe for anti-trust.
Oh and btw, for the patient that left that message above, you do really need to take some meds and understand that I just switched ironically to Blockbuster that offers MORE HD DVD movies then Netflix for actually $3-$4 more.
It's just another one of the nut-jobs here incapable of tolerating nevermind understanding anyone who doesn't 'love' what s/he 'loves' (applies mainly to game consoles).
Raving console kiddies, pretty funny I guess, in a tragically sad way.
And despite your long winded post...........HDDVD has still lost the war. Nobody made this a big deal except HDDVD, they are the ones to blame with their exclusivity pay offs and what not, making this war longer than it has to be. They deserve whatever negative press and lack of sales that they receive.
Nfinity, I can understand supporting HD-DVD over Blu-Ray, but to call it the superior technology, there's just no way to factually back that up. Blu-Ray has higher capacity, higher bandwidth, and uses Java which is more flexible (though certainly harder to use). Blu-Ray was also designed as burnable from the outset, and has a variety of burners, which do 50GB dual layer, and are now up to 6x burn speed (this is opposed to HD-DVD's one single-layer 15GB burner, only available with a Toshiba Laptop purchase).
Blu-Ray is the better technology. That's never really been a contention in the format war, and even if it were, it's an untenable position. What HD-DVD has argued is whether or not those technological superiorities are *necessary* for good HD content playback.
That said, yes indeed it IS safe to buy a Blu-Ray player now. I still recommend the PS3, but the new Panasonic should be a hit.
-Pie
-Pie
even though he sounded like an idiot posting that before you guys even did, now that you have, i agree with him...SHUT THE FUCK UP. cant believe yall are putting people down for supporting a different type of dvd. fucking lames.
@Nfinity,
"The ONLY problem I have with this whole thing is the notion that in a world with Xbox 360/PS3/Wii and PSP/UMD vs Nintendo DS, iPod vs Creative Zen (where the content is separated AGAIN because of technology differences), iTunes vs Amazon Unbox, DVDs in FullSCreen, Widescreen and 5 other versions of the same movie, where retailers and everyone else stocking everything everywhere, now suddenly HD DVD is the anti-christ and we need only Blu-Ray. It's completely ridiculous."
You're comparing product to platform. 5 versions of a DVD doesn't matter when they're all DVDs. 5 different format discs of the same movie IS a huge problem, when you have to manufacture, ship, shelve, and return product.
And at worst, you're comparing virtual product to manufactured product, where all of those issues don't exist. You can have 200 video formats -- and we *do* -- and you can still have one device play them all if you wanted.
And that's the thing. Unbox vs. iTunes *is* bad -- it should be plain MPEG4, in the same way that music has moved to plain MP3. And console wars *are* stupid, because the Wii is just a console with a special controller packed in.
Until specs are finalized (and no, Final Spec Bonus View Profile 1.1 is not really finalized because there will be a 2.0), don't get it. If you can give up bitstream lossless/TrueHD audio, then get a PS3.
Seconded, Just wait a little bit more. Once the profile 2.0 players start appearing then buy one.
I agree on waiting until 2.0 comes along.
Sadly I have been a HD DVD supporter, but guess I am giving up. How an unfinished product is winning I have no idea. Shows you the power of good marketing, of which Toshiba had none.
What does "finalized" mean? Is USB "finalized"? After all there are 1.0, 1.1 and 2.0 versions of that. The answer is no it isn't. And it doesn't matter so long as what exists now meets your needs.
Profile 1.0 and 1.1 players will work as long as blu ray discs are out. If you don't care about some silly web content (and it will inevitably be silly just like HD DVD disks that bother with it) then you're not missing out by buying now. A far more compelling reason for waiting is simply that models are getting better and prices are getting cheaper.
Yeah, just go ahead and wait until Profile 2.0 players start appearing next year. Of course, you can buy a player at the end of 2008 that is Profile 2.0 but you'll probably pay $600-$800 for it.
Of you can buy a an HD DVD for $100 if you look real hard and get a bunch of free movies and some of the upcoming huge blockbusters.
What's mindboggling is that anyone says that buying a $100 player with HD capability is completely unreasonable and buying a $600 player is the right thing to do?
Just shows that a lot of people have complete disconnect with reality.
Sorry about the earlier post. I honestly don't know what happened. My comp got stuck when I clicked the post and when I tried to reload it I guess it reposted my comment from the previous thread.
However I stand by what I said.
I do'nt hate either of them and if they want to continue supporting HD DVD thats their business. But to me they seem to be saying random stuff that is basically impossible.
As for this thread I don't think its safe to buy players right now. But as soon as as full lineup of 2.o Players is available it will be.
Unless you're willing to buy a ps3 (which I'm not).
However I'm very interested in the Panny BD50.
"Just shows that a lot of people have complete disconnect with reality."
Well, at least you can finally admit it.
People with more technical know-how than I have, given the processing power of the cell, what's the possibility that there could eventually be a firmware update that allows for the same audio transfer capability through the main processor of the PS3? I know it lacks a certain chip right now, but couldn't the cell do the same stuff in theory should it have the coding to do so?
I believe Profile 1.1 players will be able to play all discs with no problem. The problem lies with Profile 1.0 players. They do not have memory and may possibly not be able to play future discs. Profile 1.1 should be able to.
I think it's a lot safer than a few weeks ago. For now, get a PS3. As far as a standalone player, I'm waiting until I can get a profile 2.0 player for around $150-$200. Until then, I'm watching my movies on my PS3.
Word.
I might pay a little more, but I'm definitely not going to do it until they have a finalized spec 2.0 player that doesn't require any updates and has no bugs.
I expect a 400 dollar movie player to work at least as well as my 20 dollar chinese DVD player.
It's a consumer electronics device. I should plug it in, hook up the cables, and it should work. Perfectly. Forever. With every disc. Period.
Back off you rabid PS3 fanbois, I require a working player. You know, one that has IR control INCLUDING turning the player on and off.
Hey they have one of those that turns the PS3 on. (Looking for link) But since when did things just turn on and work? Something can always be improved the last, i donno, 12 gadgets/electronics ive purchased have had updates. Are you saying you dont update your computer? And by the way the PS3 is more likely to work with every disc period than any standalone.
I believe Panasonic just announced a Profile 2.0 player in Europe. (Also Looking for link). No price announced though.
http://panasonic.net/pavc/blu-ray/dmp-bd50/specifications/features.html
Link to new Profile 2.0 Player
No link to Fully functional IR remote because the only one i could find was an in depth mod to the Official Sony BT Remote.
I already have a PS3 so I'd say if you're a gamer and want HiDef movies, this is a safe bet. But le me pose a questions since I'm one of the first to post on this thread...
When will we know when the war is over.
a)Universal and Paramount switch to blu-ray
or
b)Toshiba throws in the towel
i'm gueesing 'a' will happen first and days later 'b' will happen
I think b will happen first. Universal said that they're in it until Toshiba puts up the white flag.
I suspect that Toshiba will soon announce an upcoming dual-format player, then Universal (and maybe Paramount, if they're still exclusive) can announce that they are going format neutral in response. That will be the final surrender, although they can all spin it as "enabling consumer choice" so they can avoid losing too much face.
The sooner it happens the better. I think Universal and Paramount must be close to a decision and probably want Toshiba to make things easier by conceding defeat.
Whichever way it turns out and I don't think we'll be waiting more than the end of February to know. That's when the 5 free disc deal ends for HD DVD making players an even worse proposition than they already are.
An interesting question to pose. I think to first answer the 'is it now safe to buy a blu-ray player', we're finding that it has been safe to buy a blu-ray player for the last several months as most everyone was saying.
As for your question specifically, I would argue that neither has happened and the war is in fact over. There are still a couple of snipers out here on the boards (though they can't shoot worth a damn) but the war is over. I think the mass media and others will declare it over when Paramount moves back to dual format or exclusive Blu-Ray support.
http://www.1080living.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=30
Watch out July 2008 - Toshiba rumored to release a Blu-ray player. It seems Mr. 東芝 has already thrown the towel or raised the white flag (whatever you want to call)...
If I were to go out and buy, I would buy Blu-Ray hands down. But I'd most likely go with a PS3. I would prefer a stand alone but I will probably eventually be buying a PS3 anyway plus it is the only player that can be updated to match all of the new disc features. Plus it's around the same price as the other top rated players. I think I'll wait to pick up a stand alone early this summer when we see the newer models out and hopefully some cheaper price tags. It is worth mentioning that if you aren't sure that you can pick up both because even if HD DVD dies off, you can pick up a 1080p player for $150 and use it for upconverting DVDs in another room.
Wait for Profile 2.0. if you're gonna spend $400-$500 on a BD player, might as well wait until you can at least get the one that has all the features. I certainly won't be buying one anytime soon.
PS3 has all the latest firmware updates (profile 2.0...and ready when any new updates are available), plays blu-ray's, internet, pictures, music and it costs $399. Can't beat that. The only argument against a PS3 over a standalone is that it doesn't have a display on front with clock and it uses blutooth for remote control so infared uni-remotes won't work with it.
My thoughts exactly. How HD DVD managed to lose the battle to a technology that isn't even complete yet is beyond me, but it's happened. Until Profile 2.0 players are out, affordable and bug-free I'll be holding off, albeit anxiously awaiting that time.
Certainly, however, it's not a good idea to buy an HD DVD player right now unless you really want to get a copy of the Matrix or Transformers.
Anyone think HD DVD titles will start to come down in price (clearance) now that this is all happening?
@david
Buy a cheap Nyko remote, it comes with a IR Receiver. It's not a perfect setup as i can't turn on or off the PS3 (have to hit the PS button on the controller by my chair for that) but other then that it works flawlessly with my Harmony Remote. Be nice tho if Sony added real IR support to the PS3.
This war was never won or lost based on the merits of each individual technology. It is being fought in the conference rooms of the major studios with big checks being passed around.
Understand that Warner and Fox were this ->| |
nfinity, YOU are the one out of touch with reality. why would anyone buy an HD-DVD player when they are so obviously losing the format war and selection is so poor? why would someone buy an HD-DVD player when they can't even rent movies online for them? and why would they buy one when the majority of hidef movies aren't even available for that format (and its only getting worse)?
i could personally care less about all this Profile business. the PS3 is obviously the best buy right now since it will support 2.0 and above. but i just want to watch movies that look great. and here's a fact. the more space a disc holds, the less compression the video needs and thus the higher quality of video it can be. because of that fact alone, bluray is clearly the superior format. you just can't argue that.
and GEE WHIZ, those $150 hd-dvd don't even support 1080p!!! golly gee... now why would i want to buy one of those again? because they're cheap and obviously inferior? that doesn't seem like good sense to me.
* quote
stan
and GEE WHIZ, those $150 hd-dvd don't even support 1080p
========================================================================
Stop lying Stan.
The 1080p 1080/24 Toshiba HD A30 is $125 with 5 freebie HD DVD movies on Amazon USA right now.
$125 for a better spec than any of your obsolete & beloved Blu-ray junk.
Unlike HD-DVD, Blu-Ray is still too immature at this point. There's no guarantee that current players will support Profile 2.0, and the basic $400 Blu-Ray players don't support most of the "advanced" features of a $150 HD-DVD player.
And don't forget, if you ever plan to copy your movies to a media server, Blu-Ray is definitely not the way to go.
Actually, you bring up an interesting point. Combo optical drives that play both BD and HD DVD for PC/Mac are now less than $300. (The LG is $279 on NewEgg right now.) If an HTPC is a viable alternative to a set-top unit, this would be a completely ideal drive to have.
@John B:
HTPC is tempting, but for many users there will be no way to get next gen audio off a BR-equipped HTPC (requires HDMI-bitstream capable receiver at this point). So that's still a "feature limited" choice.
i agree with john b on the combo pc drive thing... that with a good hdmi a/v card is awesome... losless audio and 1080p and then you can even do ripping and recording of both... get all the movies you want NOW!
I think I'll wait for a Profile 2.0 stand alone player other than the PS3 before jumping in. Also, Samsung Blu-Ray owners may be interested in the class-action lawsuit publicized today:
http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/35999/97/
@John B:
HTPC implementation of HD still has problems. Sorry this post will be a little long but I think it is important information for those thinking about building an HD HTPC:
#1. The PC is not compliant with HD Deep Color despite what your
display's capabilities are. No current PC will support HDMI 1.3
because there is no OS that can handle 36-bit color depths required
for Deep Color. No Microsoft OS, including Vista, can accomodate
more than 24-bit RGB color.
#2. Newer, HD quality, audio is not possilbe on a PC for 2 reasons.
The first has to do with playback downsampling and the second has to
do with hardware (see #3). PowerDVD downsamples HD audio from both
Blu-ray and HD DVD discs to 48KHz / 16-bit (standard DVD quality).
When Cyberlink PowerDVD Product Manager, Louis Chen, was asked about
this in an interview, he said, "digital output without protection is
not possible due to AACS requirement. Digital and analogue output
with protection (HDMI) is also not possible due to lack of an
internal secure audio path in a Windows PC."
#3. There is no way to convey a 7.1 digital HD audio signal from a PC to
a receiver. Even if PowerDVD or another software company decided to
forgo downsampling audio or develop a secure mechanism for
transmission, you still could not take advantage of HD audio. While
HDMI can handle the newest digital HD audio with 8 channels, all
current HDMI output solutions on a PC are from a Toslink cable.
Therefore, there is no way to get digital HD audio to the receiver.
Toslink or Coaxial SPDIF cannot carry a full DD+ signal, DTS-HD HR
signal, full 5.1 PCM signal, TrueHD signal or DTS-HD MA signal.