Earlier this month, we
disagreed that HD movie downloads would trump HD DVD / Blu-ray disc purchases in the not-too-distant future, and now we've got yet another clever alternative on deck that just doesn't have the makings of a winner. While it seems that consumers still prefer something tangible when purchasing movies, we can't help but agree that flicks on flash drives just wouldn't work. Aside from the prohibitive cost to pop out a standard DVD on a flash chip versus a disc, the idea of having customers flock to some sort of movie download kiosk to refill memory cards with new releases just seems absurd. Sure, we understand how this could sound marginally appealing from the sidelines, but we just can't imagine all those DVD cases at your favorite big box retailer getting swapped out with movie-filled SDHC cards anytime soon.
posted Feb 23rd 2008 6:07PM
Also, who the hell would even think about subjecting themselves to watching "Epic Movie?"
I've been expecting something like this for some time, and I would happily accept them over any disk, its much more compact and efficient.
most people with knowledge about the subject would.
the problem is with the idiots out there that think the bigger the size of the thing the better.
just like the gPC is bigger than it needs to be because people think it is better that way.
it all boils down to people not wanting to change because they dont know shit
I also like this...
Going to the video store and refill a SD card would be great! No more problems with scratched DVDs...
I will not buy this Tobacconist. It is scratched.
this is "news"? engadget should start a new feed for editorials.
I personally don't like the idea of movies on the hard drive. It is such a waste of space. How often do you view the same movie? Once or twice a year? That's such a waste of hard drive space. Putting the movie on a disc and keeping it in a case on the shelf is better, in my opnion.
more to the point, physical media are the only secure purchase until the industry settles down to a reliable standard. amazon promises to allow unlimited downloads of your content forever, but what does that mean? unboxed is still in "beta." the demise of walmart's online video service has proven that even a big name is no guarantee of permanence. i don't know where this crazy kiosk scheme came from, but who knows what wonky DRM it would employ? even with the end of the hd format war, i'm content with my sd dvds for now.
well think of the real or physical space you are saving by having movies on the cards...it seems pointless to argue space when you say it is more practical to have one movie on a disc in a case compared to however many you can put on one card.
A hybrid of the two ideas would be better. DVD cases are so unnecessarily large. Think if movies, instead of coming on a disc, which can get scratched and not read, were placed on a small flash drive and put in a case the length of a UMD case and the height of a DS game case, how much space and materials would be saved? Discs are so very unreliable. I think Read-Only flash memory should be the next movie storing medium. It would be so much more reliable and take up so much less space. Then, our players would only have to have a slot to insert the flash drive/card. I don't think, however, that an SD card which you can delete and add movies to would be practical, "Oh no! I lost my movie card! I spent $150 on all of those movies!!!!!" You're right, this is absolutely ridiculous. I propose a method which would work more like what we're used to, while adding reliability and versatility. IMHO, it would work much better.
Sorry for the lecture, I've just been sitting on this idea since flash drives became a big thing.
-Alpha Out
that's hardly progress: the atari 2600 had interchangeable read-only ROM cartridges in 1978. it will always be more expensive, and it has a greater potential for becoming a proprietary technology that limits consumer freedom. having a cheap, ubiquitous disc format that works across the entire range of consumer electronics is a good thing.
Since one of the first things I do with DVD's I own is rip them for backup purposes, I would be all over this. If it had the same level of audio/video quality, why not? They have those silly kiosk's at Kinkos and photo developement shops, why not at blockbuster and Walmart? They could even be the same kiosk. I already own a few SD cards, I could use them for movies and then pop them back into my camera when I'm done. I wouldn't be down with paying for a new SD card with every movie, that would be silly. But the kiosk idea is a cool one.
What kind of transfer rate is possible with SD cards? Would the wait for a HD movie be too long for this to be practical?
i scoff at physical formats
I concur.
I for one welcome or physical format overlords
digital ftw
they make shiny shurikens.
yes, that is all they are good for.
I enjoy having a physical object that says "yes I own this" and doesn't take hours of time to download when I decide to watch it.
Do you know where that digital data is stored? On a HDD in a Server somewhere. That's a Physical Format in way.
@ Abuzar
Oh, would you look at that?! You've spilled logic all over my brand new opinion!
Logic? I don't need logic!
I think it is VERY possible that people could go to a kiosk or store and purchase movies on little flash cards. I would like to see movies put on credit card size flash cards myself. Having a movie I paid $20 bucks for on an easy to scratch disc, either blu-ray or DVD, can be inconvenient because of the size and the fact that they need to physically "spin" inside a box-type device called an HD or DVD player. Seems like old tech to me even if disc media holds lots of data.
All i'm saying is it would be nice if you could just insert a slim credit card into a thin device and play an entire season of the Simpsons. Awesome really.
In my experience Blu-ray disks are VERY hard to scratch.
nearly impossible to scratch. Certainly a lot more durable than some flash formats. There is a youtube out there of some idiot who scuffs the hell out of his blu ray movie with one of those metal scouring loufa thingies, and the thing played fine.
Though I would also prefer the kiosks and memory sticks, I doubt it's going to be coming soon.
I think there's plenty of people who would take convenience over quality - watching a DVD-quality movie now on Netflix online beats waiting the 30 minutes it takes to drive to Blockbuster to fetch the 1080P copy.
The appeal of Flash memory is you can play the movie anywhere - TV, phone, computer, etc. The problem is that flash memory is waaay too expensive to make that realistic.
I'd love to be in a world where you start watching a movie on your iPod during lunch, then transfer the film to your TV when you get home and finish it there. But technology (and legal rules) aren't there yet.
Watching a full HD quality Movie on Stage6 is even better IMO.
You're making some valid points, but the one and only reason why flash drives won't be replacing optical media anytime the coming 10-20 years is cost! Compare the price of a 700MB CD-R with a 512MB SD or CF memory card and you'll see the picture.
Movie production is all about money and right now it looks more likely that people will rent or buy movies online rather than buying them on memory cards.
You've got it. I just wrote about this last month.
Flash memory is continuing to come down in price and many TV's already come with built in card slots. While currently the slots let you view photos it would cost nothing have TV's include the functionality to watch movies on chips.
The other big advantage to flash is power consumption. If you've ever watched a DVD on a plane with your laptop you'll know what I mean.
Bill
@Engadget
The idea behind movies on a flash drive would be to have the flash drive read-only. They don't sell movies on rewritable DVDs, and they wouldn't do it on solid state media either.
exactly. Making them re-writable is just ASKING people to pirate more than ever!
"exactly. Making them re-writable is just ASKING people to pirate more than ever!"
So let me get this straight... You are saying that if you could write to dvd's, then they would be easier to copy? Interesting... Maybe you should take some schooling on the concept of reading data vs writing data.
As for packetsniffer, I have no quarrel with you... you are completely right, I just had to kick this other idiot.
so sony studios will want to use memory stick, while others will choose SD: format war II~~or III
Except everyone can use both flash cards and memory sticks on many devices (phones, consoles, tvs) as opposed to blu-ray which requires a special very limited player.
Answer: Just use a damn USB flash drive (a slim one).
Compatability = win! :D
It'd be great for rentals since besides netflix most places are to inept to keep unscratched discs in stock.
i dont think it would b each movie on a different card. you could have 1-4 movies on each card, and you swap out movies in a store, or transfer to a computer. enables cheaper movies, cuz theres no disc at all, so theres almost no cost to the studio.
at the same time, im a big fan of dvds and not ready for them to go away.
What, you think the cost of that DVD comes from the $.30 it takes to make/ship the DVD?
Basically, people want something they can buy, and they want it in a case to take home and put on their shelf.
Now currently, flash memory of capacity equalling blu-ray discs is a long way off, however if a DVD can hold 4.7GB, and has 2 layers say, then an easily available 16GB flash memory would work a treat. And Size doesnt matter that much, small yeah, but a case has to be at leat a certain size.
Flash memory the size of a UMD disc would be perfect, everyone is a winner...and wouldnt be too expensive to manufacutre...micro SDHC clearly isnt the best size card for a movie...they would get lost, and taken up by a vacuum cleaner on a regular basis.
Quote: "but we just can't imagine all those DVD cases at your favorite big box retailer getting swapped out with movie-filled SDHC cards anytime soon."
Maybe so, but I do remember a few years back when people said that they would NEVER swap all those countless of thousands of VHS tapes with these new-fangled 'DVDs'
Alot can change.
But what would be even cooler, is everyone having 802.11n and being able to download a movie within a matter of minutes.
I'm at Starbucks with iPhone or iPod Touch (next gen). I want a movie to watch. Fire up iTunes and purchase The Dark Knight. Within a few seconds the download and playback begins, while the rest of the movie is downloaded within 5-10-20 minutes, pending server speed and bandwidth. After that, go home, sync with iTunes and stream to Apple TV. Or maybe finish the download at home?
It can and will happen!
I couldn't imagine Apple/AT&T/Starbucks not implementating 802.11n the second it becomes an official standard, since kicking T-Mobile out!
Actually, I'm not too sure we're gonna haft to wait for N.
G, just might work, as well!!!
I don't see memory sticks and micro sd cards being a movie format. It just isn't in the cards... Maybe if we weren't living in the age of Cable/FIOS and G/N hotspots, but I just don't see it with what we have now...
Wireless speeds have nothing to do with it. Not many people have enough bandwidth from their ip to max out b, let alone download a HD movie in less than 30 minutes.
Uhh, peshue, you're fail.
I get cswallow's point, and I agree.
The movies would NOT be downloaded from the internet, but DIRECTLY of the store's/starbucks server, at the max wireless speed
I think your right... the storage cost of flash is just too high.
The likely alternative to Blu-ray I see is HD-Video On Demand provided by your cable (or fios, uverse, etc) company. If you really want to have a movie to keep, you go buy it on Blu-ray. If you just want to watch a flick in HD some random Tuesday night, it is so easy to just use your remote.
Because of this, I believe Blu-ray movies will start coming with more trinkets. (i.e. treasure map, coin, poster, companion booklet, etc) This can help further differentiate owning the moving vs just watching it.
Why take it to a store? Fat pipes, or pre-loaded servers. I don't want to wait 12 hours to download 12GB of HD movie, and I don't want a streaming movie to grind to a halt in the middle because some bozo down the street is doing the same thing on the same cable.
Scarily, somebody out there is probably looking at a flash memory device with an encryption key, that you'd take to a store to load up with your rented movie. It's that darn DRM that makes any kind of download attractive to the distribution channels, and makes it annoying to all of us. And the stupid thing is that it's still breakable -- I'd give DVDJon a day to break anything like this.
And don't give me that "Information wants to be free" crap -- information wants to be *valuable*. Unless somebody pays for it, nobody's going to spend $200M to make it.
Eh, if it was Epic Movie (more like "Epic Fail") on my flash drive, I'd be the first to swap the content.
But I think the concept would work better in the same style as Game Boy and Nintendo DS Games - you would buy a different cartridge for each movie, rather than the same one that you just swap content on. Plus that way piracy is prevented.
ever heard of umd same concept didnt work to well tough
What about the write once SD cards that are supposedly coming soon (mentioned on this very gadget blog). They would allow CHEAP, non-refillable distribution of digital content on a tiny tiny memory card (meaning going to a "kiosk" would not be necessary, they just give out the cards like discs)- a great step between Bluray and the ultimate of movie downloads. And you can still put them in a case :) (and put them in your phone, PSP, PMP, Wii, TV, etc etc.
I'm already watching movies / recorded tv off SD Flash cards, my £20/$40 dvd player accepts all types of flash inc SD Flash, memory stick or usb flash (I've even had a my 320Gb external harddisk hooked up).
So much easier and quicker than waiting for the dvd to spin up, plus the price of flash memory is coming down very quickly, I think it'll be a good replacement to blu-ray if the price of blu-ray's don't fall alot quicker
a TakeTV pic would have been better
Speaking of epic movie, I can't believe they put advertisments of it on childrens networks like Nick.
I understand it was rated PG13, but so was spiderman.
Damn studios try to sneak sex scenes past us, even at kids!
I had thought the whole point was to get away from having a physical good.
If, er, when that happens and your storage blows out, how do you replace it? Unlimited lifetime downloads doesn't seem to be what the movie or music industry wants, so we have to have something very reliable to store the downloads on, or we're wasting our efforts.
I think downloadable movies will fail because people want to own tangible items. I think the logical next step in whatever format succeeds optical discs is to have something that doesn't have any moving parts and is durable. Don't discount packaging either... people buy stuff all the time based on packaging alone. I think movie companies will have decent size cases with artwork, etc. and the actual medium will be some sort of flash-drive type device. Obviously that isn't going to happen this year, next year, or the year after that... but it WILL happen eventually. The only thing that nobody seems to have considered is the eventual player for this media... there is no way SONY or Pioneer or whoever will sit by and allow something like a generic secure digital card to be the medium because that would take away from sales of a player... people could just watch stuff on their computers or whatever. So i'm sure it will be some special dedicated form, but i'm guessing the guts of the media will be flash memory or something akin to it.
What does everybody else think?
P.S. The kiosk idea sucks. Nobody is going to just go into Walmart to download a movie on to a secure digital card. Consumers care about packaging; if they didn't the music industry would just kill of CDs entirely and just sell all their music online.
"I think downloadable movies will fail because people want to own tangible items. "
Zune and iPod users disagree with you.
If every film you could ever want is online in HD whenever you want it for a reasonable fee (flat or otherwise) WTF would you do with shiny discs?
My FiOS conenction pulls down 1080p/24 rips faster than I can go and buy or rent them. Shiny discs are dead, they just don't know it yet.
discs will be around as long as people don't have an internet connection.
the memory card system can work for rental businesses, no more "oh we don't have that in right now", just load up the movies and go home.
this could keep blockbuster in business big time, most dvd + media players have either a memory card slot or usb connection.
the only limitations would be the transfer rates of the cards themselves.
good option, just needs a more focused purpose.
Cool
i think flash drive make more sense for more than just movies. lightwave 9 came with a USB dongle so it can only be run on 1 computer. if they sold the software on memory cards, they could have a lot more space and better copy protection
(please don't flame copy protection if you reply, that is not what this post is about)
I can see using flash cards to distribute GAMES on, say, the PSP2 or something. But I can't see these catching on to replace optical discs. Not to mention that there considerably more expensive than a Blu-ray disc to manufacture at this point.
If they require an internet connection to play the movies anyway...
I remember a Popular Science article from April, 1995 in which they were talking about a similar idea, only it was for music. And the memory cards were only 32mb. And cost $2000. Glad we won't have those same issues here...
Considering I got a chinese knockoff of a sandisk 1GB flashcard that works just fine for $5, and a 2GB for $15, it's not going to be too much longer until you see DVDs replaced with the same quality MPEG4 video on a 1GB SD card.
One of the benefits of SD is the support for hardware security on most cards using CPRM:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content_Protection_for_Recordable_Media
Which is practically CSS for SD. Weak enough to be broken without incredible trouble, but also enough protection for the DMCA to apply no differently than DVD.
The standard "Token Effort" to prevent casual copying.
Anyone copying non-casually with enough time and effort will always prevail, but it's enough to provide legal justification that the content is 'protected' and shouldn't be copied -- not can't be copied.
Cardplayers are already out there and are gaining popularity. This one can even record MPEG4+AAC-LC at 640x480@30FPS-2048kbps (1GB/Hr) right to flash: http://www.card-media.co.uk/minivcr.htm
And it fits in the palm of your hand. In another year, they'll be available in Blockbuster for $29.99 or less. Bet on it.
As a audio/visual technician, I hate scratchable media. It's awful. I'm all for something more durable!
I can't imagine anything like that to happen.
1. Yet another format? It will need the blessing of the movie and TV studios before that can happen, and we all know that their solution will not involve one without DRM.
2. Flash for movies sounds like a good idea. Will it require another set-top device? Insert it directly into the TV? Then what about the surround audio for those with an AV hookup?
3. For a kiosk system, the packaging does not matter. Some video rental stores do not even have the original sleeves for the movies, and their movies still get rented.
4. Not everything needs to be in full-HD, and not everyone has FIOS (or any high speed access). News, documentaries may not need full-HD with lossless audio, and you certainly do not need HD if you plan to watch content on your ipod/zune/etc. This different requirement means that what you get on HD (with DRM) will not be transferable to a non HD device (legally).
From what we have all just witnessed with HD-DVD and Bluray, we know that the next format needs to be blessed by all the movie studios and without their backing, it will fail.
I think it's about time they do something like this. I just hate hearing the noise when a rotating media spins (HDD, CD, DVD, BD, you name it). Solid state media should be the future of data storage (SSD, SD, MS, MMC, CF, etc.). Beside I can't wait for Apple to put a removable media port in their MacBook Air. Probably by then I will consider buying one.
Ugh... Flash drives are way more expensive than optical discs... I'm pretty sure that 12GB microSD (hell, even normal SD) costs way lot more than 25GB Bluray disc.
this is absolutely possible of course the prices of the cards need to be muuuch cheaper maybe that time is not too far away very soon sandisk will announse 16gb amd by the way todays phones suport it http://symbianwebblog.wordpress.com/2008/02/23/hot-16gb-microsdhc-work-in-current-s60-devices-photo-proofs-included/
the relly cool way of storing your movies would be just bying it online and staying online without any phisicall cariers
Ah, I still remember the thoughts on digital photography in the late 90's. Nice to play with but for the real thing you would have to stick to analog... Awake allready!
I think the reason this is most likely hard to imagine is because of the size, but give it time. I live in an apartment that has no storage areas like a spare room or anything, so I tend to rip all my movies or throw away the cases and store them in a CD folder.
If there was a smaller commercial solution, id be interested.
Also, imagine the SD cards coloured with movie graphics, nice!
Ian,
You are spot on. As we speak, iTunes is expanding it's rental list. I d/l a movie to my Nano (3G), plug in to the docking station (Universal Dock p/n MA045G/A) and watch it in the TV. No hassles, no driving to BB, no late fees.
The only real drawback is d/l time. A movie d/l is 2 hours for 1.5Gb for me at the house. I have to know on a day when I want to watch a movie and start the d/l. However, iTunes rental is for 30 days, so I can pre-load for the weekend, if I choose. As these speeds increase on the average, slow d/ls will no longer be concern.
While I can't see the kiosk ever becoming big money, I do see Walmart, et al, having a d/l center for movies. BB, iTunes and Netflix have the jump on d/l rentals, but I expect to see an upstart move into the market through creative use of technology and/or cheaper prices. I predict a bright future for d/l movies and that will limit the flash movie kiosk. Imagine a day when you can d/l any movie you've ever wanted. Why drive?
Well I think this could work. It might take a few years to fully take advantage of the technology. Flash storage prices drop in half each year (or less really) and the capacity doubles. Speed is also increasing. Think of services like iTunes and Net Flixs (and likely a few more will grow). You can purchase downloadable movies already (probably HD ones too). That is fine and dandy for watching on your TV. Some have taked about being able to burn to DVD and play in DVD players, but really this will only go so far. Well take this a step farther. A lot of devices are going wireless... consoles, phones, MP3 players. Well this works OK, but is not always the best for most people and transfering to devices at work or in your car can be a bit of a pain. Well a lot of devices has SD slots in many formats (mini, micro, and standard), like digital cameras, cell phones, and even some MP3 players. Almost all PC and Laptops have an SD slot (my monitor and printer do too). It would be nothing to be able to transfer movies (along with music, text, data, pictures, and applications) using SD memory.
Now you might say that this would leave you open to more pirating as the data would be able to play on any device. Well put a user code attached to whatever service you are using and make the devices only be able to play copy writed media from that user. Have a nominal charge to register a device to each user account so you can share media with you family... maybe $5. So you set up say your "Google Media" account and it lets you play the media on you your PC. You have 3 PMPs, 3 set-top players, a PSP-2. a GB DS-2, a 2 car media players, and you have 4 other PCs (for you spouce and kids and one at work). This is 14 extra devices registered to your one account at a total of $70. You might think this is a lot, but if you download 1000 songs at $1 a piece and 200 HD movies at $10 a piece then you will have a library worth $3000... $70 is nothing. The memory card has encoded data on it.... just like a most content no-a-days and includes a in the encripted file the account it is linked to and all devices it can be playe3d with. Make it so when you add more devices it can edit the card to add more (through "Google Media") if a new device was added later, but it needs to be connected to that user's account, not someone elses. It would then be able to update the supported device list on the memory card in seconds without having to rencode the whole thing and would likely do this automatically when you plug in a memory card.
This type of account and device management would be usable for files stored on devices, media trasnfered with media cards, and media transfered wirelessly to devices. I think it should be an open standard, so Apple would likely fight as hard as they can to stop this and likely not join the party. Since this copy protection is encoded alread the actual storage is not important. Mini, micro, SD, SDHC.... or even memory sticks using USB would likely be supported. Most TVs and car sterios would add this capability in a heart beat. Set top boxes could too. a seperate media player for your TV (if needed) could be tiny... really a good PMP could serve the duty.
Now for people that do not want to have media stored on an account or tied to their name (porn), you can likely still buy media on cards. Make the cards read only and sell them encoded to a distributor's account with a genaric device capability. This way you can play them on anything, but can not actually add them to your account in "Google Media" and store them on your PC.... you can plug them into a PC and play them dirrectly off the memory card though. With 8GB sticks running $30 right now for retail, a media provider in 2 years could likely get 16GB sticks for $10 or 8GB sticks for $5. 8GB I think gives you about 1 hour (plenty for porn) and a 16GB version is enough for most movies (maybe not all the extra content if the movie is long).
BAH, On SDHC CArds? Noooooo...
No plop them on CF cards, with proper labeling, and you've got a sale. They are beg enough, they look like small VHS/Cassettes and they could fit a proper label on them.
Faster access time, More durability, as much space, if not more then a Optical disc. so it can get the menus, and everything.. AND with it being flash based, it can be built into a Portable Media player.
I have been wondering for several years now why music and movies are not just sold on SD cards, especially now that they are dirt cheap. If they are pre loaded with the movie or album and lock to read and copy only, no write so cant loose the content would be great in my opinion. A 1-2 GB SD card cost about the same as a DVD or Blu-ray disc.
Better solution: A new memory card that is about the size of a credit card or gift card. It could have all the fancy graphics on it to advertise the movie, and be sold in a DVD case without missing a beat (already, lots of stores sell their own gift card in a DVD-style case, and some of the prepaid MMORPG cards also come in those card-holding DVD-style cases).
It would still have the packaging and shelf space, but it would be solid-state, and not subject to scratching. It would be harder to copy (lots of room on a memory card to stick in some DRM) and playable on set-top boxes and computer with the right hardware.
They'd be easy to carry with you (stick it in your wallet!) to watch at a friend's house. They would be resistant to all the standard handling damage possibilities, and not affected by fingerprints or smudging. They could put a little holograph on the front to indicate it's the real deal.
I'd buy into that technology. The cool thing about it is that they wouldn't need to change the player if they wanted to increase capacity--- Just make cards with more memory when it becomes affordable.
RAM price will drop. This will be a better choice than optical, some day.
Movies on small flash cards is more convenient and hotter (style wise) than HD downloads and the current compact disc format. This trend will lead to slimmer and sleeker hardware devices as well. I really think this idea will be well accepted in the consumer market. Hey I like it =D
idk guys, i think you might be missing something here. reloadable, rechargable little cards that can hold all your dvd's for a trip, music, etc. a compact durable container that fits in my cell phone, camera, laptop, media extender? what's not to like? Kiosks would be just one of several ways that you would be able to purchase and load media.
pretty clever, i think. some folk just don't get it, i guess. prob why they just write about tech here instead of make it.
dh