Sony has quite the history of crippling excellent, beautiful hardware with horrible, useless software. The company's UX UMPC
bluescreened on us the first time we turned it on, and crashed the first time we tried to shut it down thanks to all the bloatware on it, while a Laptop Mag review says their Vaio TZ ran "
as if it were broken" before they managed to wipe it clean. Lucky for us, it appears Sony is finally seeing the error of its ways, but instead of removing the crapware altogether, Sony has the nerve to offer a $50 "Fresh Start" option, which "scrubs" the machine clean before shipping it your way. At the moment you can only configure the TZ2000 crapware-free, but hopefully Sony will be rolling out the choice to the rest of its laptops soon. Or here's an idea, Sony: stop trying to milk profits and start giving consumers laptops that actually work out of the box.
[Thanks, Camron T]
Update: In case you missed it, it looks like Sony had a change of heart about
Fresh Start. (What, already?)
posted Mar 21st 2008 2:16AM
yeah definitely a lil ridiculous. first thing i did when i got my VAIO-A270 a couple years back i wiped it clean and its been great for me ever since
great laptops though
I would still do a fressh install even if it had 0 crapware.
Exactly. Given Sony's history, how do I know it doesn't come with a rootkit from the factory?
Wait... Let me get this straight... They charge you $50 to REMOVE software, instead of ADD it?
What sort of messed up, ass-backwards world is this?! @_@
the world of capitalism, sir ;)
And also bad is that they say they'll actually REMOVE the damn crap, what about NOT INSTALLING it in the first place? On the other hand, they could be just not installing, only that they say they remove it just to justify charging for NOT DOING A DAMN THING.
Sony's new motto: "What do you expect?"
Geez, I hate all the PC Laptops with their bloatware/crapware. Even though I Love Lenovo laptops, the crapware they come with is enough to make you vomit. One point for Apple (so that makes a total score of -156 - 100 of which was for "mindless trendiness" and 30 for form over function)
I rather take the option of NOT having their OS, let me fit mine in... Linux is for the cool, windows is for the tool... i mean.. no wonder mac runs vista better, since their windows dont' have bloat ware...
Isn't junkware the reason why many PC's are more cheaper? Instead of directly putting the cost on the user, the maker just puts on some junkware that some companies paid for?
I don't like junkware either, but I'd rather take a few minutes to uninstall some stupid programs, than having to pay upfront for the extra surpluses.
I really love Sony Vaios for their quality and design, but the junkware has always been somewhat disappointing when you turn it on.
I think Vista comes with a junkware remover tool or something.
Bloatware = cheaper PC is news to me... Source?
@soul eraser
You don't need a source, it's basic economics.
First, we'll start with what we know to be true, and then deduce additional facts from those truths.
1) Wild Tangent (and other bloatware companies) want to make money, through people paying for their games and through in-game advertising. Thus, the more users they have, the more money they make.
2) HP, Dell, etc. are in business to sell computers, and that includes the low-end market. They would be willing to do a lot of things to make their computers cheaper than their competitors.
3) Computer manufacturers would not put crapware in their products unless there was some financial reward for doing so.
Therefore, we can conclude that:
4) WildTangent and HP, Dell, etc. would all benefit if the bloatware companies covered some of the cost of the computers on the condition that their software comes pre-installed on said computers. Thus allowing manufacturers to have cheaper products and for bloatware companies to target a larger audience.
So assuming 1, 2, and 3 are true, then 4 is also true. This is how capitalism works. If you don't like it, you can always get a clean install from ..... um....... "other sources"
No kidding, this honestly sounds like asking for ransom money or something. Sure it's not as bad as "give us $50 or we kill the kid," but it's still "give us $50 or we fill your precious new laptop with tons of crap." Charging for them to *not* install software on the PC your paying them for is just very poor business practice as far as I'm concerned and is just flat-out disrespectful to customers.
You wanna buy a Zepto then ;) www.zepto.com
It's so good, that even installing Windows is optional, never mind bloatware.
or just do it yourself for free:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=120228
Honestly, this is a PR Blunder as much as anything else. If sony had been smarter about this, the options would read:
1. Clean Install - Your new VAIO PC will come out of the box swinging, with a set of lean and mean applications; Certain VAIO applications and applications provided by our advertising partners will not be preinstalled, and will not be included on your install discs. These applications will be available online should you choose to install them.
2. Full Extras (Subtract $50.00) - The complete suite of VAIO applications, plus select online games and software packages from our advertising partners, will be included on the hard drive and in the restore disc. [Link: See complete list of included software]
Now, if they hadn't been so mind-numbingly disingenuous about it, this article might have taken a different tack.
"Bloatware = cheaper PC is news to me... Source?"
It's called a brain. Think about it. Do you think the PC manufacturers are promoting other people's products for free? No, they are getting paid to do it. They use that payment to reduce the price of the product.
Here's my question: if you *do* Fresh Start, do your restore discs have the junkware or not? Because every time I have ever dealt with PCs, the official restore discs of the computer FORCE you to install the crapware when you use them.
If this is only a one-time thing before the machine ships out... yikes.
For some reason, the m1330 is the only pc that I didn't need to wipe out clean in order for it to work fine. Shame that'll never apply for vaio's.
the giz is reporting sony is dropping the charge:
http://gizmodo.com/370901/sony-shamed-into-making-fresh-start-free
well, they are reporting
Hi, Chris! No need to be an asshole about it. :)
But, seriously, is there any proof that they use the money from bloatware publishers to offset PC costs, and not just pocket the money? I guess, perhaps, that could be part of the contract.
And, I'm not sure what time zone Engadget's in... but that post of mine says 3:19am... A time when my brain is not functioning properly.
tl;dr: STFU :)
Yeah it's funny people say a lot of sh1t they don't mean. People want their goods to be cheap and that's all that really matters.
'I don't want bloatware... what's that? A PC for £200? Out of my way!'
'GM foods are bad, food miles are bad, poor conditions for animals are bad, the government should do something... holy cr@p this chicken is only £1.99! Fill the trolley!'
@ Sony,
pwned bitch!
haha, this could be added to that quintessential list of common phrases such as "will it run doom or will it blend?"
I propose: does it come with a fresh start?
Let me be the first to usher in a new age of hating on stupid memes:
"I wish we could get a fresh start, without you."
save it for the caption contests
Meh, doom, blend, fanboys! wait...I see what you just did. WTF??Best. Post. Ever.
Look a little closer. You get $25 of software costs knocked off when you do this, so the end cost is $25 (plus upgrading to Vista Business).
Sony probably makes $100 on the computers that come w/ software so they're just trying to recoup some of their margin. It's not great, but it's pretty logical.
EVERYONE READ ANTHONY'S COMMENT ABOVE. And thank you so much, Anthony, for being one of the very few people here making any sense.
Sony is actually giving you the option to not have any crapware on your new computer, saving the average PC buyer time and grief. They are the only ones I've seen offering this option at ANY price.
It costs them money if you invoke that option, so they have to pass at least some of that on to you. You don't invoke that option, you don't pay $50, and it's like you got a system from any other mainstream manufacturer.
I swear to God, some of you people would bitch if they hung you with a new rope.
of all the profit-greedy things ive seen, this one, although not extremely expensive (although installing LESS software never cost MORE), is definitely one of the most irritating that ive seen.
redundant, i know, i just noticed it, its late and im not thinking too much, they should definitely have an edit option
"installing LESS software never cost MORE"
...unless installing the software actually nets you money. which, in this case, it does.
imagine, for a second, that i told you i'd give you a dollar for every piece of my software you installed on your computer. of course installing less software would cost you more, because you're throwing away money that you could have. (because the inverse is true- installing MORE software 'costs' you LESS, because you're *making* money on the deal.)
(in this case, "you" are the manufacturer, not the consumer.)
I absolutely despise all that crapware. All other PC manufacturers to my knowledge do this too, I guess they get money from the crapware companies. Although, I have bought several Gateway laptops, and the last one I bought came with a completely clean Vista DVD. You'll need to reinstall, but it's easy as just putting in the disc and restarting. That's why I like Gateways, at least for the cheaper segment of PCs. I don't know if they already changed that, though, but it was free of charge (and they gave you a freaking physical disk too).
i like that about my gateway too, the fact it comes with an actual dvd as opposed to a partion makes it much easier to re-install without all the crap.
In all honesty, companies of bloatware are probably _paying_ Sony to install the software in the first place, so minus that, the money most come from some other source. Not that it justifies passing the cost onto the consumer, but is this really that surprising? What about subscription services that want you to pay to get rid of ads and other annoying tidbits?
i'm positive Sony, Dell, et al get kickbacks from the bloatware companies.
Dell figures the crapware is worth $60
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070111-8598.html
Two questions - if you get a Dell/Sony laptop with Visa preinstalled:
* If you clean rebuild with the Vista DVD that comes with it; does it reinstall the crapware?
* Do you get a serial number you can use with someone else's Vista DVD?
Russ:
Depends on what type of "install" discs you get with your machine. If you get "system restore" disks (usually more than one) then you are probably getting an exact replica of the image the populated your HDD with from the factory and some utility on the disk will just do a quick format and copy that image over, bringing you right back to Crapfest 08'.
If you get a Vista DVD to install with (like the ones I got with my Gateway laptops), chances are you are getting a OEM re-install disc that is as clean as Vista gets.
@ engadget.mlc
Are you serious?
really?
are you trying to defend Sony for this abhorrent business model?
Its all well and fine that the few of us have the technical knowledge to wipe our own machines clean and start from scratch, but think of the general user who can barely use their new $2000 plus laptop!
This is disgraceful, and if i weren't already an apple user, this would be enough to make me switch
I love Apple too and am typing this on a mac, but apple sometimes does the same thing, though obviously to a lesser degree. Macs come by default with trial copies of iwork and microsoft office, and while they don't slow the system down, they can be a drain on hard drive space. The sole purpose of this is to sucker you into buying the product once your trial is up, which is exactly why the PC manufacturers do this, though they operate on a larger scale, with more products, companies, and resources occupied by the bloat.
is that the same apple that is trying to shove the iTunes Player down my throat as a "Apple Quicktime Update"?
I don't understand what part you don't understand about this. It's just like commercials on TV. Sure, we all hate them, but they are the reason that TV is free (antenna) or as cheap as it is (cable). Do you have TIVO/DVR? You know why you pay a monthly fee for it? It's to recoup the advertisement loss. Don't like the "bloatware?" Then uninstall it. The problem with today's users is that they lack the knowledge to do something as simple as reinstall their OS, and whats worse about this is that it's so much easier today than it was back in the Windows 3.11 days.
@Peter:
Not anymore, they don't. The latest MacBook and MacBook Pros do not ship with trial iWork nor MS Office. The only thing Macs come with now that could even remotely be considered "trialware" is .Mac.
@Don
"Sure, we all hate them, but they are the reason that TV is free (antenna)..."
For all the talk of economics, you'd think someone would come up with the idea of "opportunity cost" and stop using words like "free" when they do not apply.
They have a trialware remover app on their support website.... for free
Why is everybody so biased against Sony these days? Oh is it because this is an Apple blog and Sony are trying to compete with Apple? Apple charge $220 for 1GB of ram.
Well, I'm personally against them because they treat Europe like shit. Always have done.
Wait... so you're saying that Engadget is bias against Sony because they disagree with having to pay 50$ to REMOVE stuff from your computer? A better idea would be to reduce the price by 50$ for taking away the crap.
I smell a troll.
People are biased against Sony because one of the companies in their group (Sony entertainment, a prominent member of RIAA) has had particularly consumer-unfriendly practices in the recent past. do a bit of research on "Sony rootkit" and you'll find out more.
This fresh start option, twisted as it may seem, does offer some clarification to the market. It's good to have consumers use their heads before parting with their cash. My Packard Bell machine does have some circuware that is hidden from Windows "add/remove programs" but I don't get the option of knowing why it's there. Now when comparing offers from alternative computer/OS manufacturers the consumer can put a price on having a retail OS vs an OEM customized image.
Enough to make you switch to a Mac so you can pay just to get a fully functional media player.
Quicktime got fullscreen mode by default quite a while ago, which is what I presumbe you're referring too.
It should have had it in the first place albeit, but hey it's fixed now.
I can't live without QTPro. The cut and paste audio/video editing alone makes it worth if not the $30 then at least the time to track down a QTPro key on the internets.
ALl of my windows friends hate iTunes and quicktime... but I mean, Ive used WMP and WA, and they really kind of... suck.
LOL, wow. That's hilarious and shameless for sony.
People need to remember WHY laptops are so inexpensive these days. Companies like Dell, Sony and HP put bloatware onto the machine because companies like McAfee, Symantec and Quicken pay them to. The cost of the machine is subsidised into the advertising cost of trial software. Without the trial software, the price of the laptop goes UP. Hence, the $50 charge makes complete sense.
Pretty much. If you sell millions of laptops then 25-50 bucks per laptop in marketing fees translates into a lot of money.
On the other hand, is it really a lot of money to a company like Sony that sells pretty high end stuff. If you're going to drop $2000 on a laptop it's kind of absurd that Sony feels they need to basically nickel-and-dime their customers with an offer to remove the crapware.
I guess Sony isn't yet at the point where they can say "our products are good enough that they don't need to be subsidized by annoying marketing in order to compete". Maybe someday.
I wonder if there will ever be an eeePC-clone with hundreds of trial-ware that will be sold for $10
I love Sony Vaios, because of their quality and design and all, but I hate how it's always loaded down with junkware.
I just simply remove it. The junkware's only there to make the laptop cheaper, though albeit an annoying way.
I think Vista has a junkware tool to get rid of that stuff, I'm right. I noticed this today on the Sony site as well.
Talk about an arrogant Company. Sony just doesn't get it. Their continued efforts to lock customers into various DRM schemes and proprietary B.S. continues to show that Sony has ZERO respect for it's customers.
no engadget .........you hate sony !
fanboi?
Isn't this what GNU/Linux CDs are for?
like.no.other
It's in their DNA.
You guys have no idea how much padding the trial software gives. It is definitely more than just $50. This is why the same laptop is around 150% more expensive oversees. (of course import tax / VAT applies also) A $1500 Sony laptop is probably been subsidized around $200 because of the junk software, possibly more if you pay up for the full term.
I personally suggest the option, although removing all the junk isn't rocket science.
they have a program on the esupport site for CR to remove all the trial programs..
Heres the link to it: http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/swu-download.pl?mdl=VGNCR120E&upd_id=3342&os_id=28
"This software is used to remove pre-installed software on the system (especially trial software)."
SO yea 50$ for a program thats freely available on their site ?
Leave a comment about this stupid program for Sony to read.
http://sonystyle.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/sonystyle.cfg/php/xml_api/cci/feedback.php?source=VAIO® TZ Series Notebook - Premium Model
Damnit, I wish they would pay me $50 to install their crap! (Not that it would stay for very long, it would be removed as soon as I was finished laughing all the way to the bank)
Whenever I don't build a computer myself I always make a backup of it and then wipe it clean. If users who're in the market for a sony and can pay 2k, I think they should invest some time into learning how to do this.
Until enough people make a choice of OEM based on what OS they install or not...all OEMs will install Windows and bloatware because it is finacially more attractive.
Has less to do with user approval and more to do with licensing and kickbacks. I know. I worked 13 years with Microsoft.
In Soviet Russia, You hates Sony...
Man, that's like going to get a haircut and having to pay $50 just so they wont cut off your ear.
If, somehow, the barber usually makes money by cutting off your ear, then yes, it would be perfectly reasonable for him to charge a fee for not doing so, especially when he's the only barber in town who's offering you the option.
Sony makes a lot of money by including crapware. $50 is probably a small percentage of what vendors actually pay them to preload that junk.
I know that Sony get paid for the bloatware, and that's why it costs to remove, but that doesn't make it right. It just makes them look incompetent. It's not putting trial software on the computers which I object to: it's making all this junk start automatically when it boots. Here's an idea: charge slightly more, but don't put all this crap on your computers. They'd easily make up the sales with the people recommending the computer, who wouldn't because it's slowed down by all that bloatware.
Great idea.. They could charge about, let's just say $50 more, and then you'd avoid getting all that bloatware. It really is a great idea, you should email them or something.
This way makes people think they are being ripped off. Which they kinda are.
Don't buy Sony. They suck anyway.
The little "Fresh Start" (TM) really made it for me, like they're trying to be your friend and clean up after some dastardly third party... for a small fee. If I hadn't known better I would have sworn this article was from The Onion. It's true what they say -- some people, you just can't satire.
This is amazing. I'm thinking about setting up a company that uninstalls all this crap for only $30.
And Sony doesn't hate us. Sony loves us for buying their overpriced crap. Like they removed the rumble function from their PS3 controllers, called it next-gen and sell them full priced.
Offcourse, only to release a Dual Shock version a few months later.
I love you Sony. Keep on pwning tehh n00bz
Here's an idea, how about option to get a $50 discount if I let Sony install their crapware instead of charging to take it off.
For anyone interested as to just how much crapware we're talking about, here's a list of what Sony installs (it's a lot):
http://www.techconsumer.com/2008/03/21/sony-charges-50-extra-to-sell-you-laptop-with-no-crapware/
Thank you Sony for once again energizing the negative vibes some people have against you. Way to go. I even own some of their stuff too. But, charging people for removing something that it shouldn't be there in the first place is bs. One more reason why I'd never buy a VAIO.
What's the problem? It's honesty in pricing. Sony is admitting that their software degrades the value of the machine by at least $50.
Best Buy does this also. For $50 or $100, I can't remember which, they "optimize" your new computer -- basically they take all the crapware off. I can't remember if they offer to install virus protection as well or if that's extra.
I think there should be a law which prohibits Laptop/Desktop producers from preinstalling crapware.
I love it when I buy a new computer then have to reinstall the OS just to get it to work correctly, perform well.
People actually use the preloads that come with a PC? Every laptop I buy, I reload it on the spot.
The sad thing is that Sony does make some great hardware. Particularly the higher end stuff, which they already charge a huge premium for.
I get the whole subsidy thing from a competitive standpoint. Sony can't drop it until HP, Dell, Lenovo etc. do because their laptops will be panned for being too expensive. So why not keep the bloatware on the low end stuff and strip it from the high end which as I said, they're already charging a premium for.
At least that way, they'd be competitive where people are more price sensitive.
That said, bloatware has to go and the continued growth in Apple's marketshare proves that people care about great design and bloatware free computers. The idea that I had to spend hours re-imaging my brand new (and expensive) Sony Vaio just to get the crapware off is ridiculous.
I wasn't going to bring up Apple at all until RoboDan farted in the elevator.
Since Apple does put several applications on their computer, it has to be pointed out. Though they are not only quite innocuous, since they're hidden in the Applications folder, they are quite useful packages. OmniOutliner, Microsoft Office Demo, iWork demo.
So, I give RoboDan's comment a -130 for missing the point that Apple's laptops don't have all that crapware BECAUSE function is as important as form.
Does bloatware include Vista? I have a client who was pissed at how slow his new SZ laptop was so I installed XP - he's thrilled at how fast it is but is pissed bacause even Sony and Sprint can't get me drivers for XP that work with this models Sprint wireless. There are drivers for many other models that come with Vista but you can upgrade to XP - just not this particular model - bummer.
who cares? I wipe everything off than install my own windows when I got my new laptop anyway...most people that read engadget probably do the same thing.
Its the grand mom got took advantage of by SONY...so next time your grand mom wants to go laptop shopping. forget that hot chick w/mini skirt. they many of those out there. but you got only one grand mom (maybe 2) shame on SONY
One more sign that Sony is totally clueless in anything other than hardware. And they had to mess that up too by insisting on proprietary formats.
I used to work for Best Buy. We always had to push a "$19.99 System Optimization" with any computer purchase. What a ripoff that was. Basically all we did was go into startup and remove any "crap" running in the background.
Why is this so surprising? This is what happens when there is a race to the bottom in any business. Consumers are just as much to blame for annoyances like bloatware as are Sony, Dell, etc.
I fail to see how Sony (or Dell or any other PC manufacturer who sells your desktop to the highest bidder) is "evil" because of bloatware. Consumers demand cheap prices, especially in the U.S. where getting the lowest possible price is considered some sort of inalienable right. Manufacturers give them to us. Its the same as commercials on TV or on Hulu.com. If you don't like them there are other options for getting you TV commercial free, but it will cost you to have them removed.
This is awesome, they should make an update system like Apple's software update that puts crapware on your machine quarterly and then they can charge you money to remove that too!
I saw this over at team stealth about a week ago...
http://teamstealthonline.com/blog/archives/107
On top of the $50 charge, if you decide to keep the crapware on, you still get charged $20 for the VAIO apps, so either way you're getting screwed...
Wow... the fact that they have the nerve to call it "FreshStart", trademark it, and expect people to pay for getting a "fresh start" with their new product is absolute hubris. As a customer, I would be asking "Wait, so when I buy a new product, the factory default is 'not a fresh start'??" What an absolute joke.
Ha ha .. this is like our Joy of Tech comic, where we had Apple charging extra not to put an Intel sticker on the Intel Macs. :-)
Making it a remove-to-order option...
http://www.geekculture.com/joyoftech/joyarchives/301_999/696.html
As a consumer, that's insulting. One more reason not to buy Sony products. Ever.
The solution here is found in a few little steps:
1. Do NOT purchase Fresh Start for your brand new Sony laptop (Actually, Why are you buying a Sony?)
2. Download DBAN (Derek's Boot and Nuke) and quickly erase the hard drive
3. Use the included Windows cd OR go to a certain website (Aaaargh! Avast!) and download a crapware free copy of Windows
4. Install Windows.
5. Get device drivers from the internet.
6. Done!
You've just saved $50. AND stuck it to the man.
This story is now wrong by the way, Sony have apparently had a change of heart (or more likely they freaked out at all the bad press and did something about it for once), and made the 'service' free according to CNET.
http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9900516-1.html?tag=cnetfd.mt