Indian Blackberry network given 15 days to allow government snooping or shut down
By Nilay Patel 
posted Mar 25th 2008 12:11PM
posted Mar 25th 2008 12:11PM
The last we'd heard, the Indian government had ruled out the threat of a Blackberry ban if RIM didn't allow it to snoop on messages, but it looks like some overzealous bureaucrat is getting his way after all: the Department of Telecom has issued a 15-day deadline for RIM to either open up for the G-men or get shut down. RIM says it won't comment on regulatory issues as a matter of policy, but it looks like the Indian government is playing hardball, with Telecom Minister A Raja saying that national security will not be sacrificed at any cost. Hmm, hear that? That's the sound of over 400,000 Indian Blackberry users desperately grabbing at their devices to get another quick fix -- something tells us this isn't going to end well.[Via Cellpassion]
I can see this happening in America.
The political spin will be .. "to fight terrorism" or "for keeping our children safe". Every idiot votes for it because "who wants to support terrorism and why would you be against keeping children safe?"
and more politician will be found to be involved in sex, drug, rape scandals. Let see who's next
It is already happening...Haven't you heard about the whole FISA debate.
AT&T, Verizon, Comcast, etc..., have all alowed the governmnet to illegally for the last 6 years.
Homie has a point mang !!
If we are dumb enough to think that this country isn't doing that to us already we don't know our own country. (U.S.)
Patriot Act Baby yeah !!!
*sticks pinky in mouth ala "Dr. Evil"
Ysleiro, the Patriot Act is expired.
There was no "warrantless domestic wiretapping" even under the expired Patriot act. To tap without a warrant, one party must be in a foreign country and be suspected of terrorist links. The "suspected of terrorist links" part was often overlooked which is a form of abuse, but it's not "domestic warrantless wiretapping." If both parties were in the US, even if they were just visiting, a warrant was required.
In short, if you're making purely domestic calls, you've never been tapped, unless you're talking to known terrorists or known criminal enterprises in which case I'm glad you're being listened to.
But what do I know, that's just the findings from the Democratic Senators after the recent hearings on the (now expired) wiretapping program authorized by the Patriot Act.
And you think because it's expired the CIA and God knows what other agency gives a rat's ass !!
I know its just a conspiracy but given the nations prior history I will lean towards the "I don't trust you" side.
Not trying to get smart with or anything like that by the way, I just don't see this country as the "Pinnacle of Justice" I once used to see it as.
Look at how many times this country has done shady and illegal things to then only admit it 20 years down the road.
The original Patriot Act did expire. So you are right about that.
But there have been reauthorizations of 2 of 3 parts of the original.
click on the Reauthorizations link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_act
@Andy: ...you HAVE heard about the NSA wiretappings, and the Bush administrations push for (unconstitutional) retroactive legal immunity for the Telcom companies to protect them against lawsuits for illegally cooperating with the government's warrant-less surveillance programs....
right?
or have you been plugging your ears?
It's - you know - been on the news.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/17/AR2006081700650.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy
just google it for goodness sakes.
you're almost right about this, though: "There was no "warrantless domestic wiretapping" even under the expired Patriot act."
...you just forgot to put "legal" in that sentence. The point, though, is that it WAS done, and done so illegally. (if it was legal, or if it wasn't done, what's the point of seeking retroactive legal immunity?)
Andy, you're so naive:
"In short, if you're making purely domestic calls, you've never been tapped, unless you're talking to known terrorists or known criminal enterprise"
The phone companies get faxed warrants all day nonstop, running out of paper is a real worry. Maybe the US is full of criminals, maybe innocents are being wiretapped. I believe the latter.
Besides your tin foil covered rantings and lack of actual facts, none of you have pointed to anything I said that was FACTUALLY inaccurate.
It's funny how facts get some people so riled up.
And by the way, I did note that the "terrorist links" portion had been practically disregarded. That still doesn't change the fact that they have not been spying on domestic to domestic calls without warrants.
"the phone companies receiving warrants all day" means that they are receiving legal requests for wiretaps. Hence, the "warrant" part which is an order entered by a court.
You guys have trouble separating issues and factual scenarios due to your paranoia. You should have that looked at.
Indians have a history of philisophical enlightenment, as recently as Mohatma Ghandi. I have respect for their understanding of dignity.
"Is the brown writing, and brown tinge of that man meant to be some sort of joke?"
LOLz..
@Raheem
you'd love china.
I can't see any sinister motives in this, but then I don't really know the situation in India. I would assume they have reason to believe that possible information may be passing through the Blackberry network that the government needs to know about for national security? Fair enough - who has anything to hide?
you dont mind government fascism Raheem?
Even though terrorism and insurgency poses an ever present and deadly threat to India, I have privacy concerns with the government snooping over the citizens' conversations. Corruption and malfeasance in public offices rank right alongside terrorism and separatism in India, so people should beware of any sort of big brother-esque eavesdropping from the G-men.
The "If you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about" argument is the biggest scam ever. The government has the power to then slowly change the definition of wrong.
I'm an engineer, and according to the law...I'm a terrorist if I decide I'm fascinated with the way something is built and want to get structural pictures.
I believe one of the working legal definitions of terrorist activity is "gathering information on a potential target". Are civil engineers in need of security clearances now because they know how to build and destroy things.
Doesn't the government need court warrants/permission before it can snoop?
Lol everyone's very paranoid. All I know is that when something bad happens people kick and scream about how they should've prevented it, and then they kick and scream when they try to. There's something dodgy in my eyes about civilians wanting so much 'privacy' in e-mails. Do you honestly think someone in the government gives a shit about your erectile problems that you're detailing to your confidante? In reference to the fascist comment: I'd have to say I swing the way of stricter government regulation on most things. Sorry to disappoint.
Ben Franklin famously said "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither"
listen to the man
Read 1984, come back, and then tell us what you think.
(meant towards Raheem)
I've already read it. Isn't there some other Fiction book you can suggest for my reading pleasure?
Or are you trying to tie some fiction book to a future real life event?
Can I go watch the Matrix again?
Thanks mate, read it a while ago, then did my Politics degree, how about you go and read this little book I like to call, "Don't Think You Know It All."
@ Mile: you're right. there's absolutely no ties between reality and fiction. Absolutely no insight can be gleaned from critically acclaimed authors who use fiction as a vehicle for expressing ideas and illustrating concepts.
you're a moron if you need someone to connect-the-dots for you.
@ Raheem: Your comments are incredibly naive. was it a mail-in "Politics degree"?
I don't buy it for a second. you don't have to be paranoid to understand basic rights to privacy. if you buy into the "if you aren't doing anything wrong, then you have nothing to hide" then whatever degree you got obviously didn't teach you any form of critical thinking.
I said, screw the Indian government. If they shut it down, they will be the one who will suffer......
RIM should stick to their guns and let them shut it down......
THERE ARE NO BETTER CRACKBERRIES AVAILABLE ANYWHERE...
MUWAHAHAHAHAHA
My money says the RIM will bend over and take it.
I can't see the US govt doing this, as most of their employees (read: politicians and their entourages) are connected to their blackberry. Aren't RIM's servers in Canada anyways? So while the US may have jurisdiction over its carriers, it can't really touch the servers. I think perhaps I don't fully understand the whole thing.
I have a family member that work alongside the U.S. government (thankfully not in any sort of way that would make me paranoid), and I can attest seeing a great number of Blackberrys used by government workers and also companies that are under contract with the U.S. government. They like it because it syncs up nicely with all of their Windows junk.
This is how the game works:
1. Big Western Company establishes presence in developing country.
2. Government official in developing country threatens to shut down Big Western Company
3. Big Western Company pays a "Facilitation Fee" to some Swiss Bank Account.
4. Profit.
No, that is not how it works.
What do you call the US government's snooping on public communications, then? You bet your ass that all switching equipment installed in the telcos and internet backbone have options for monitoring the traffic.
You are either a xenophobe or an idiot if you think it is OK for a "developed" country to do the same thing that a "developing" country cannot. What do you think about the recent amnesty/protection for U.S. telcos cooperating with the US government's request for unauthorized wire-taps was for?
To the NSA: Whoever is reading this post on a blog, take it easy, OK? I mean no disrespect. :)
If you don't think your messages are being read already then you need to wake up!
True dat.
Especially in the mundane legal community, India has been a big source for outsourcing. Many firms rely on blackberry communication in India just as they do in America. The same is true in engineering.
This could be a huge political and economic mistake for the current Indian government.
Totally agree. Big Brother IS watching! Is the Indian "democracy" turning into a totalitarian regime in the name of national security the way some other nations have? Malabar is in India, isn't it? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malabar
This from the Orwell classic: "Remember our boys on the Malabar front! And the sailors in the Floating Fortresses! Just think what they have to put up with. Now try again. That's better, comrade, that's much better,' she added encouragingly as Winston, with a violent lunge, succeeded in touching his toes with knees unbent, for the first time in several years."
Shut 'em down. I hate RIM and Blackberrys. It's just another pain in the ass device used by rich people to control their little worker bees' lives at all hours.
So, shut 'em down.
Gian
Can you say, Nokia lobbyists?
How would this work with US people in India? Ie. People that work in the embassy and such? Wouldn't that make it illegal for them to have that info available back here in the USA?
Either way they lose, so they'll have to pull out entirely?
Indian here :(
Pretty Sad about what's happening.. But, security is one of big concerns here too..
But unlike the U.S, Free T.Vs(!) and giveaways(Money,Stuff) give a boost to one's popularity.
Remember India is Russia's ally too. Being an Indian, I do hate Capitalism as much as I hate Socialism, but I need my entertainment fix too, so I lean towards them Capitalists..
World-Over, Democracy is slowly disintegrating into a "V for Vendetta"-style fascism..
U.K with them Cams, India with black-berry snooping, what next "Cams to be installed in all Toilets- to prevent jerking off to foreign elements"??
/Not your tech-support.. =)
you hate Capitalism as much as Socialism.... but you choose capitalism because of shiny toys?
you shouldn't be allowed to vote. (and depending on what system you prefer, that might be exactly the case!)
Privacy is a commodity that is becoming rarer and rarer. It is naive to blame just the political structure for this loss of privacy. When you think about it privacy is a recent phenomenon in society. People like to refernce yesteryear or the good ol' days when no one had anyone looking over our shoulders, but the truth is that we were always being watched. Look in small towns the world over. Everyone knows everyone else's business. The difference now, and why we percieve it as a loss of privacy, is that technology is distorting the voyeristic balance. People used to be able to observe their leaders with the same or similar amount of detail that the leaders could observe about the populace. This is the balance that has become lopsided. The ruling elite now have more access to the details of our lives than we have of theirs. They have red-light cameras, electronic surveilance, corpaorate databases in their back pockets. Who gets to see the video feeds, not us. Who gets to peruse lists of names and addresses sorted by location, demographic, and income for the purpose of gathering votes and custom tailored lies? Not us.
The cure? The solution? It may sound odd but I propose more cameras, not less. Put a camera in every government official's office (they are probaly already there.) Pipe the feeds on to the internet. Let the countries become communities by providing the tools required for the common man to help with law enforcement. Let us help police ourselves and our leaders. It might be pie in the sky stuff, but it just may work.
God I really hate this paranoid sick post 9/11 world. :(
This kind of thing has been happening before 9/11 and it will likely continue to happen. It's a good thing to not be 100% trustworthy of public officials and take the time to educate yourself about what is really happening around you (this story has as much to do with India as it does the US).
Its a toughie...
On one hand, I'd want RIM to stand up for themselves, prove a point, not to bow down to a government that is insistent on seeing everything and everyone.
But on the other, with terrorism threats and whatnot its reassuring that the government is aware that the network could be used for "untoward" activities and is trying to do something about it. . .
I dunno, don't think there will ever be a right opinion on something like this, its true that we're in a more paranoid state than ever, but you've got to admit it, with everything thats gone on maybe there is good reason to be?
If I used a blackberry, guess I'd have to go get PGP Encryption for it :)
I love how much governments, including the U.S. Government, hates PGP (they have publicly stated their dislike for an encryption system in use that was not developed by them or under contract).
Well just trying to get this into perspective:
1. India is subject to terrorist attacks far more than people realize it. There have been documented cases of terrorists infiltrating firms in order to gain access to information. Thus we need to figure out some way of preventing this.
2. Anybody who feels that India is not democratic, just needs to look at the political situation in India. India does a much better job of addressing everyone's concerns and giving people a voice than most other democracies in the world, including the US. Does this mean we are perfect? Not by a long stretch, but we have sustained and encouraged a participatory democracy fairly well.
3. It is one thing to argue for privacy and worry about whether or not the government is overstepping its bounds. The media in India is pretty active in serving a watchdog role. Furthermore personal freedoms are defended, albeit not always with one hundred percent accuracy but still in most cases the focus is on trying to prevent government from turning tyrannical. However is this a sufficient justification for denying the police and cbi the access they need for unearthing and preventing terrorist attacks? I believe not. I realize there is a slippery slope, but before we start blindly decrying the Indian government, I feel we should learn more about the situation. Here's a place to start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Terrorism_in_India
Criticism is good, but it should be informed and cognizant of the nuances of the situation.
This situation is like a big commercial for public key encryption. Take the encryption out of the hands of RIM and put it one the user side, and RIM is hosting bits which are statistically indistinguishable from random static.
Someone tell the minister to lay off crack, heard it causes paranoia.
Don't kid yourselves, SOMEONE is listening. A few times a week right in the middle of cursing AT&Ts crappy service, my call gets dro.....
>.... carrier lost
for real?
shouldn't this be illegal.
You do need to understand that concept of privacy varies from country to country and from culture to culture. I mean snooping emails may be considered invasion of privacy in US or UK may not be considered so in India or China.
For better or for worse, if you want to do business in India then you have to comply with Indian laws same way as a foreign company wanting to do business in US complies with US laws.
I mean how is this different from say an American company's right to snoop / read /filter emails sent or recieved on their machines or servers?
If Indians want to give up privacy (or maintain the status quo of limited privacy), that's between them and their government as you suggest.
I think the big mistake is in the threat to cut off service. That's a big economic penalty not on RIM, but on Indian businesses.
@dahood12:
More cameras won't give you privacy!
Holding government accountable may be solved by cameras, thats your theory, but it has nothing to
do with the privacy of individuals, which is what
this discussion is about, you idiot.
I don't want the government snooping on me full
stop. period.
I should be allowed to think what I like and do what I like as long as my acts are legal, without it being MONITORED and recorded!! A street camera for security is one thing, it can capture people 'casing joints' and it will help with subway security, anything else is 5000 steps too far.
My point wast that privacy is a falacy. Mutal monitoring was what was going on. Now, we have one side (government), looking a lot more closely and witholding what they see. You have never had true privacy because it does not exist in this day and age. The only place where you could have had (past-tense) privacy was on a deserted island prior to the first spy satelite going up. There are satelites that can read the text on a quarter from space, and listening devices to hear inside your house from a block away (without installing a bug I might add.) While I agree that everyone should be allowed to "think what I like and do what I like as long as my acts are legal," your assumption that you are not monitored while doing so is false. You already are being monitored. The only reason it hasn't been shoved in your gullet, is because there are bigger fish to fry.
5 times the same add (University of phoenix) in every engadget page... kinda starts to disturb me. I'm sick of looking at that guys face
Looks like all the IT jobs are gone come back
Looks like all the IT jobs are going to come back
Surely they can implement the same thing they used for US wiretapping?
RV:
Though I do agree with the thrust of the argument, that quote is neither accurate nor attributed to the correct person.
IT should read "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Which we can all agree has vastly different implications. Also, that is believed to be written by Richard Jackson and often mistakenly attributed to Franklin.
Franklin did, however, come up with some thing similar: "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power."
Anyway.. Yes, I agree with you, but I HATE the misuse and contraction of that specific quote, as it gives it an entirely different meaning than was intended.
Hmm.. let's try this again and see if it places correctly. As I understand it, the reply button is really more of a suggestion for placement than anything else.. heh.
RV:
Though I do agree with the thrust of the argument, that quote is neither accurate nor attributed to the correct person.
IT should read "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Which we can all agree has vastly different implications. Also, that is believed to be written by Richard Jackson and often mistakenly attributed to Franklin.
Franklin did, however, come up with some thing similar: "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power."
Anyway.. Yes, I agree with you, but I HATE the misuse and contraction of that specific quote, as it gives it an entirely different meaning than was intended.
First they came for the Indian's blackberrys, but I did not say anything because I was not Indian and had an iPhone.
LOL :-) Nice!
Ideas form governments. Ideas like, for example, privacy. Problem is governments need people and people get elected/hired to govt positions that do not necessarily agree with these original founding ideas. Hence govts give into corruption and work to circumvent these ideas...pissing off those who value them. Clearly we need to be more careful in who we are hiring/electing. Maybe we need psychometric evaluations for such candidates that measure their dedication to our group's ideals, or maybe we need to re-evaluate these original ideas. Who says scientists 200, 500, 1000, 5000 years ago were right or had all good ideas? Why are political founding fathers any different?
Maybe privacy is not good for govt workers. Maybe they all need to be accountable and controlled by a central megalithic fraternal administrator controlled by us. Maybe we actually need to all co-author a computer robot that will enforce the rules we all agree on without deviation to end corruption. Maybe we can decide battles by having robots fight with eachother that we all control from our sofa. Maybe we all just play Counter Strike and whoever wins rules the world. If Osama wins then we all do Namaz. If Bush wins we all say confession every Saturday. That's not so bad. Killing doesnt really achieve anything other than spend lots of money. Nothing has been physically secured anywhere by killing. Gandhi said "An eye for an eye only ends when everyone is blind."
I say, "I can adopt your prayers along with mine, but I can't bring even one dead soldier back to life."
Where have all the good ideas gone?
Only ideas have the power to achieve peace.