Indian Blackberry network given 15 days to allow government snooping or shut down

The last we'd heard, the Indian government had ruled out the threat of a Blackberry ban if RIM didn't allow it to snoop on messages, but it looks like some overzealous bureaucrat is getting his way after all: the Department of Telecom has issued a 15-day deadline for RIM to either open up for the G-men or get shut down. RIM says it won't comment on regulatory issues as a matter of policy, but it looks like the Indian government is playing hardball, with Telecom Minister A Raja saying that national security will not be sacrificed at any cost. Hmm, hear that? That's the sound of over 400,000 Indian Blackberry users desperately grabbing at their devices to get another quick fix -- something tells us this isn't going to end well.

[Via Cellpassion]

[Mark @ Mar 25th 2008 12:17PM]

I can see this happening in America.

The political spin will be .. "to fight terrorism" or "for keeping our children safe". Every idiot votes for it because "who wants to support terrorism and why would you be against keeping children safe?"

[tom @ Mar 25th 2008 12:23PM]

and more politician will be found to be involved in sex, drug, rape scandals. Let see who's next

[Nabil @ Mar 25th 2008 12:28PM]

It is already happening...Haven't you heard about the whole FISA debate.

AT&T, Verizon, Comcast, etc..., have all alowed the governmnet to illegally for the last 6 years.

[Ysleiro @ Mar 25th 2008 12:38PM]

Homie has a point mang !!

If we are dumb enough to think that this country isn't doing that to us already we don't know our own country. (U.S.)

Patriot Act Baby yeah !!!

*sticks pinky in mouth ala "Dr. Evil"

[andy @ Mar 25th 2008 12:56PM]

Ysleiro, the Patriot Act is expired.


There was no "warrantless domestic wiretapping" even under the expired Patriot act. To tap without a warrant, one party must be in a foreign country and be suspected of terrorist links. The "suspected of terrorist links" part was often overlooked which is a form of abuse, but it's not "domestic warrantless wiretapping." If both parties were in the US, even if they were just visiting, a warrant was required.

In short, if you're making purely domestic calls, you've never been tapped, unless you're talking to known terrorists or known criminal enterprises in which case I'm glad you're being listened to.

But what do I know, that's just the findings from the Democratic Senators after the recent hearings on the (now expired) wiretapping program authorized by the Patriot Act.

[Ysleiro @ Mar 25th 2008 1:47PM]

And you think because it's expired the CIA and God knows what other agency gives a rat's ass !!

I know its just a conspiracy but given the nations prior history I will lean towards the "I don't trust you" side.

Not trying to get smart with or anything like that by the way, I just don't see this country as the "Pinnacle of Justice" I once used to see it as.

Look at how many times this country has done shady and illegal things to then only admit it 20 years down the road.

[Ysleiro @ Mar 25th 2008 1:48PM]

The original Patriot Act did expire. So you are right about that.

But there have been reauthorizations of 2 of 3 parts of the original.

click on the Reauthorizations link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_act

[Jeff @ Mar 25th 2008 2:15PM]

@Andy: ...you HAVE heard about the NSA wiretappings, and the Bush administrations push for (unconstitutional) retroactive legal immunity for the Telcom companies to protect them against lawsuits for illegally cooperating with the government's warrant-less surveillance programs....

right?

or have you been plugging your ears?

It's - you know - been on the news.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/17/AR2006081700650.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy

just google it for goodness sakes.

you're almost right about this, though: "There was no "warrantless domestic wiretapping" even under the expired Patriot act."
...you just forgot to put "legal" in that sentence. The point, though, is that it WAS done, and done so illegally. (if it was legal, or if it wasn't done, what's the point of seeking retroactive legal immunity?)

[Sky @ Mar 25th 2008 2:25PM]

Andy, you're so naive:
"In short, if you're making purely domestic calls, you've never been tapped, unless you're talking to known terrorists or known criminal enterprise"

The phone companies get faxed warrants all day nonstop, running out of paper is a real worry. Maybe the US is full of criminals, maybe innocents are being wiretapped. I believe the latter.

[andy @ Mar 25th 2008 3:00PM]

Besides your tin foil covered rantings and lack of actual facts, none of you have pointed to anything I said that was FACTUALLY inaccurate.

It's funny how facts get some people so riled up.


And by the way, I did note that the "terrorist links" portion had been practically disregarded. That still doesn't change the fact that they have not been spying on domestic to domestic calls without warrants.

"the phone companies receiving warrants all day" means that they are receiving legal requests for wiretaps. Hence, the "warrant" part which is an order entered by a court.


You guys have trouble separating issues and factual scenarios due to your paranoia. You should have that looked at.

[Will H. @ Mar 25th 2008 5:32PM]

Indians have a history of philisophical enlightenment, as recently as Mohatma Ghandi. I have respect for their understanding of dignity.

[Ysleiro @ Mar 25th 2008 12:22PM]

"Is the brown writing, and brown tinge of that man meant to be some sort of joke?"

LOLz..

[Mark @ Mar 25th 2008 2:28PM]

@Raheem

you'd love china.

[Raheem @ Mar 25th 2008 12:22PM]

I can't see any sinister motives in this, but then I don't really know the situation in India. I would assume they have reason to believe that possible information may be passing through the Blackberry network that the government needs to know about for national security? Fair enough - who has anything to hide?

[Mark @ Mar 25th 2008 12:26PM]

you dont mind government fascism Raheem?

[saycheese @ Mar 25th 2008 12:36PM]

Even though terrorism and insurgency poses an ever present and deadly threat to India, I have privacy concerns with the government snooping over the citizens' conversations. Corruption and malfeasance in public offices rank right alongside terrorism and separatism in India, so people should beware of any sort of big brother-esque eavesdropping from the G-men.

[sully @ Mar 25th 2008 12:38PM]

The "If you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about" argument is the biggest scam ever. The government has the power to then slowly change the definition of wrong.

I'm an engineer, and according to the law...I'm a terrorist if I decide I'm fascinated with the way something is built and want to get structural pictures.

I believe one of the working legal definitions of terrorist activity is "gathering information on a potential target". Are civil engineers in need of security clearances now because they know how to build and destroy things.

[vcx @ Mar 25th 2008 1:21PM]

Doesn't the government need court warrants/permission before it can snoop?

[Raheem @ Mar 25th 2008 1:36PM]

Lol everyone's very paranoid. All I know is that when something bad happens people kick and scream about how they should've prevented it, and then they kick and scream when they try to. There's something dodgy in my eyes about civilians wanting so much 'privacy' in e-mails. Do you honestly think someone in the government gives a shit about your erectile problems that you're detailing to your confidante? In reference to the fascist comment: I'd have to say I swing the way of stricter government regulation on most things. Sorry to disappoint.

[rv @ Mar 25th 2008 4:31PM]

Ben Franklin famously said "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither"

listen to the man

[telepheedian @ Mar 25th 2008 12:30PM]

Read 1984, come back, and then tell us what you think.

[telepheedian @ Mar 25th 2008 12:30PM]

(meant towards Raheem)

[Mile @ Mar 25th 2008 1:28PM]

I've already read it. Isn't there some other Fiction book you can suggest for my reading pleasure?

Or are you trying to tie some fiction book to a future real life event?

Can I go watch the Matrix again?

[Raheem @ Mar 25th 2008 1:38PM]

Thanks mate, read it a while ago, then did my Politics degree, how about you go and read this little book I like to call, "Don't Think You Know It All."

[Jeff @ Mar 25th 2008 2:24PM]

@ Mile: you're right. there's absolutely no ties between reality and fiction. Absolutely no insight can be gleaned from critically acclaimed authors who use fiction as a vehicle for expressing ideas and illustrating concepts.
you're a moron if you need someone to connect-the-dots for you.

@ Raheem: Your comments are incredibly naive. was it a mail-in "Politics degree"?
I don't buy it for a second. you don't have to be paranoid to understand basic rights to privacy. if you buy into the "if you aren't doing anything wrong, then you have nothing to hide" then whatever degree you got obviously didn't teach you any form of critical thinking.

[etechshop @ Mar 25th 2008 12:33PM]

I said, screw the Indian government. If they shut it down, they will be the one who will suffer......

RIM should stick to their guns and let them shut it down......

THERE ARE NO BETTER CRACKBERRIES AVAILABLE ANYWHERE...

MUWAHAHAHAHAHA

[Jeff @ Mar 25th 2008 2:25PM]

My money says the RIM will bend over and take it.

[Matt @ Mar 25th 2008 12:37PM]

I can't see the US govt doing this, as most of their employees (read: politicians and their entourages) are connected to their blackberry. Aren't RIM's servers in Canada anyways? So while the US may have jurisdiction over its carriers, it can't really touch the servers. I think perhaps I don't fully understand the whole thing.

[Tony Rayo @ Mar 25th 2008 2:20PM]

I have a family member that work alongside the U.S. government (thankfully not in any sort of way that would make me paranoid), and I can attest seeing a great number of Blackberrys used by government workers and also companies that are under contract with the U.S. government. They like it because it syncs up nicely with all of their Windows junk.

[VicD @ Mar 25th 2008 12:40PM]

This is how the game works:

1. Big Western Company establishes presence in developing country.
2. Government official in developing country threatens to shut down Big Western Company
3. Big Western Company pays a "Facilitation Fee" to some Swiss Bank Account.
4. Profit.

[saycheese @ Mar 25th 2008 12:58PM]

No, that is not how it works.

What do you call the US government's snooping on public communications, then? You bet your ass that all switching equipment installed in the telcos and internet backbone have options for monitoring the traffic.

You are either a xenophobe or an idiot if you think it is OK for a "developed" country to do the same thing that a "developing" country cannot. What do you think about the recent amnesty/protection for U.S. telcos cooperating with the US government's request for unauthorized wire-taps was for?

To the NSA: Whoever is reading this post on a blog, take it easy, OK? I mean no disrespect. :)

[mymaclife @ Mar 25th 2008 12:45PM]

If you don't think your messages are being read already then you need to wake up!

[mattydread @ Mar 25th 2008 1:16PM]

True dat.

[andy @ Mar 25th 2008 12:49PM]

Especially in the mundane legal community, India has been a big source for outsourcing. Many firms rely on blackberry communication in India just as they do in America. The same is true in engineering.


This could be a huge political and economic mistake for the current Indian government.

[Ian @ Mar 25th 2008 12:50PM]

Totally agree. Big Brother IS watching! Is the Indian "democracy" turning into a totalitarian regime in the name of national security the way some other nations have? Malabar is in India, isn't it? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malabar

This from the Orwell classic: "Remember our boys on the Malabar front! And the sailors in the Floating Fortresses! Just think what they have to put up with. Now try again. That's better, comrade, that's much better,' she added encouragingly as Winston, with a violent lunge, succeeded in touching his toes with knees unbent, for the first time in several years."

[Gian @ Mar 25th 2008 12:51PM]

Shut 'em down. I hate RIM and Blackberrys. It's just another pain in the ass device used by rich people to control their little worker bees' lives at all hours.

So, shut 'em down.

Gian

[dr.erection @ Mar 25th 2008 1:02PM]

Can you say, Nokia lobbyists?

[Pip @ Mar 25th 2008 1:07PM]

How would this work with US people in India? Ie. People that work in the embassy and such? Wouldn't that make it illegal for them to have that info available back here in the USA?

Either way they lose, so they'll have to pull out entirely?

[Ameen @ Mar 25th 2008 1:08PM]

Indian here :(

Pretty Sad about what's happening.. But, security is one of big concerns here too..
But unlike the U.S, Free T.Vs(!) and giveaways(Money,Stuff) give a boost to one's popularity.

Remember India is Russia's ally too. Being an Indian, I do hate Capitalism as much as I hate Socialism, but I need my entertainment fix too, so I lean towards them Capitalists..

World-Over, Democracy is slowly disintegrating into a "V for Vendetta"-style fascism..

U.K with them Cams, India with black-berry snooping, what next "Cams to be installed in all Toilets- to prevent jerking off to foreign elements"??

/Not your tech-support.. =)

[Jeff @ Mar 25th 2008 2:30PM]

you hate Capitalism as much as Socialism.... but you choose capitalism because of shiny toys?

you shouldn't be allowed to vote. (and depending on what system you prefer, that might be exactly the case!)

[dahood12 @ Mar 25th 2008 2:45PM]

Privacy is a commodity that is becoming rarer and rarer. It is naive to blame just the political structure for this loss of privacy. When you think about it privacy is a recent phenomenon in society. People like to refernce yesteryear or the good ol' days when no one had anyone looking over our shoulders, but the truth is that we were always being watched. Look in small towns the world over. Everyone knows everyone else's business. The difference now, and why we percieve it as a loss of privacy, is that technology is distorting the voyeristic balance. People used to be able to observe their leaders with the same or similar amount of detail that the leaders could observe about the populace. This is the balance that has become lopsided. The ruling elite now have more access to the details of our lives than we have of theirs. They have red-light cameras, electronic surveilance, corpaorate databases in their back pockets. Who gets to see the video feeds, not us. Who gets to peruse lists of names and addresses sorted by location, demographic, and income for the purpose of gathering votes and custom tailored lies? Not us.
The cure? The solution? It may sound odd but I propose more cameras, not less. Put a camera in every government official's office (they are probaly already there.) Pipe the feeds on to the internet. Let the countries become communities by providing the tools required for the common man to help with law enforcement. Let us help police ourselves and our leaders. It might be pie in the sky stuff, but it just may work.

[Argot @ Mar 25th 2008 1:13PM]

God I really hate this paranoid sick post 9/11 world. :(

[Tony Rayo @ Mar 25th 2008 2:27PM]

This kind of thing has been happening before 9/11 and it will likely continue to happen. It's a good thing to not be 100% trustworthy of public officials and take the time to educate yourself about what is really happening around you (this story has as much to do with India as it does the US).

[starkman @ Mar 25th 2008 1:33PM]

Its a toughie...

On one hand, I'd want RIM to stand up for themselves, prove a point, not to bow down to a government that is insistent on seeing everything and everyone.

But on the other, with terrorism threats and whatnot its reassuring that the government is aware that the network could be used for "untoward" activities and is trying to do something about it. . .

I dunno, don't think there will ever be a right opinion on something like this, its true that we're in a more paranoid state than ever, but you've got to admit it, with everything thats gone on maybe there is good reason to be?

[PGP-Protector @ Mar 25th 2008 1:39PM]

If I used a blackberry, guess I'd have to go get PGP Encryption for it :)

[Tony Rayo @ Mar 25th 2008 2:30PM]

I love how much governments, including the U.S. Government, hates PGP (they have publicly stated their dislike for an encryption system in use that was not developed by them or under contract).

[Barry @ Mar 25th 2008 1:48PM]

This situation is like a big commercial for public key encryption. Take the encryption out of the hands of RIM and put it one the user side, and RIM is hosting bits which are statistically indistinguishable from random static.

[Bryant @ Mar 25th 2008 2:00PM]

Someone tell the minister to lay off crack, heard it causes paranoia.

[ReggieXuk @ Mar 25th 2008 2:03PM]

shouldn't this be illegal.

[Idlemind @ Mar 25th 2008 2:10PM]

Don't kid yourselves, SOMEONE is listening. A few times a week right in the middle of cursing AT&Ts crappy service, my call gets dro.....


>.... carrier lost