TiVo's win over DISH Network upheld by court of appeals: It's over
By Richard Lawler 
posted Apr 11th 2008 1:07PM
posted Apr 11th 2008 1:07PM
[Thanks Zatz Not Funny & Thomas Hawk]
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All I can say is: DAMNIT! DAMNIT! DAMNIT! I like my Dish DVRs I DON'T LIKE TIVO!
I totally agree. The program guide is much faster and you have a lot more control. Even the fast fowarding/rewinding is easier and more responsive.
I like TIVOs season pass capability, but overall I like using the Dish DVRs much more.
To each their own, I'm a happy Dish Network and TiVo customer, I'm still stuck with SD (despite owning an HDTV for 2 years) because my only two options are getting rid of TiVo or switching to TW Cable, both of which are simply not something I'm going to do.
Now hopefully I will be able to get a shiny new "DishTiVo" and make the switch to HD at last.
To each their own, but I can't believe you like Dish's interface better then Tivo. I tired Dish, but after 2 months me and the wife couldn't take it anymore and had to buy a Series 3.
Never expected to hear her say "I don't care how much it costs, just buy it." about any gadget.
To a lot of women, TV doesn't count as gadgets. My wife complains if I spend a couple hours playing a game, but she has no problem with sitting in front of the TV for hours on end. My friend is a musician who constantly works on music, and his mom gets upset that he doesn't spend more time on the couch watching TV with the family.
Anyways, relating to the main topic, this is kinda sad. I mean admittedly, TiVo has a case, but I hate to see DISH Net get pummeled anyways. I always liked them for good service and far better prices than DirecTV.
Agreed. I like having my free DVR-508 and not having to pay a stinking monthly FEE just to have DVR service.
I wonder if all or only select models could be affected?
TiVo makes no money off this decision UNLESS they simply force Dish
to pay them fees for using their tech on the current devices, and
then liscence TiVo-branded DVRs for the future. Then TiVo makes out
very well.
TiVo could force Dish to remove their DVRs, but they won't do
that--they're is no money in it. They'd rather rather make a bundle
than piss people off just to prove a point. Their stockholders
wouldn't let them do that.
bummer.
yeah totally tivo
- http://www.stompergames.com
Tivo should force dish to give us tivo instead of those stupid dishnetwork dvr's. Then everyone is happy
I prefer the dish network dvr. It doesn't have pretty menu and etc, but it does what I want and I don't have to listen to those annoying sounds or have to deal with not having a skip ahead 30 second button.
You know you can disable the sound effects, as well as enable a 30 second skip, right?
http://www.pvrwire.com/2006/12/27/customize-your-new-tivo/
I have a series 2. The sounds can easily be turned off, and I have the ability to skip ahead 30 seconds. Both are listed in the instructions. Did you read them, or have you never used a tivo?
You can turn off the sounds, and it has 30 second skip function, you just have to enable it every time you boot up.
Come to think of it, I haven't been having to enable 30 second skip after power failures. Does anybody know if an update made the Tivo remember that it was enabled over reboots?
@mohaine: Yes, Tivo made the 30-second skip "stick" after a reboot. I believe this came with the 9.1x firmware.
I've only interacted with my parents tivo. The thing is that the one I have, it works out of the box like that. No hidden settings, they're all just right there.
*Shrug* keep your tivos if you want, I like the one I have thank you very much.
Umm I have 30 sec skip on my Tivo HD, it's just a matter of programming it, which takes 30 seconds. And I disabled the sound affects the first day I had it. I've had dish network, and Tivo is by far better. I push HD MKV's and DivX to it, can you do that with your Dish DVR, thank you come again.
well if they do pull the dvr i hope they do give us tivo as long as i can record shows i dont care
Yes. This really sucks bad. The Dish DVR is the BEST DVR I have ever used. I have used several Comcast boxes, a time warner box, charter, and even Tivo, and in my opinion, Tivo is the worst... boop, boop, boop, SHUT UP TIVO!
I like my skip button. 30 seconds forward, ten back. its great. Commercial comes up, press that button like four times or so, and its back to your show. I also dont have to pay for it... Tivo wants to charge you per month right? (Call and complain to dish if you are paying the DVR fee. Call enough times and you won't be paying either :))
Turn the sounds off. It's a 10 second thing to do.
Enable the 30-second skip. Again, 10 or 15 seconds and you're set.
You are whining about easily changeable cosmetics. Would you like to offer up some quality criticism, or do you just like being a troll?
Geoff: You sound like the whiney one. Own TIVO stock do you?
I've used my parent's TIVO, and spent quite a while digging around trying to find a way to skip ahead 30 seconds and never did. Now maybe theirs is old, but even so I like having the button on my Dish remote. Quick and easy.
Regardless of whether the features are the same, overall I find the Dish DVRs to be more responsive among the various navigational controls (menus, ff, etc) and with a more manual feel to them. TIVOs certainly are nice and have their advantages, but personally I find them a bit too convoluted at times. Sometimes less is more.
30 second skip on TiVo: Select Play Select 3 0 Select
Yes, you can turn on the 30 second skip going through a backdoor key entry, but everytime the Tivo resets (about three times a day now with new software) you have to start all over. Direct TV no longer supports the Tivo. If you don't believe me just call them with a Tivo problem and see how long it takes them to say you need to "Upgrade" to Direct TV's DVR or take you problem up with Tivo.
They are not pulling anything, they'll just have to pay TIVO fines and set up some licensing agreement. Dish Network's DVR is great, sucks if they switched it.
Dish claims to have a work around, but I'm doubtful that they really do. According to TiVo, they don't see a lot of credibility in their claims.
"In particular, Rogers was dismissive of Dish’s suggestion that it developed a “workaround” for its DVR service that doesn’t infringe on TiVo’s patent.
“We remain very, very skeptical of any workaround EchoStar has put forward,” he added. “Their claims through the course of litigation have been shown to be totally incorrect, and we feel that this claim will be seen to be totally incorrect, as well.”
http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6538753.html
This sucks, I have a Dish DVR at home and love it. I dumped my Tivo at school in favor of Windows Media Center because I hated the Tivo interface. Also the stupid thing takes an hour to reboot after a power failure or update. It also didn't tell me how much recording time I had left, so it would just delete random shows. Horrible to pay yearly for it too.
It doesn't matter if you like the dish DVR or not. We shouldn't have to be forced to use one or the other. I personally like the dish DVR, but I think we should have a lot more choice, especially because this type of device has become so popular. I'm actually planning on setting up a mythtv box. I think we should be able to have more choices with satellite, like they do with cable. I had cable for 2 years and it was soooo much easier to use custom boxes to record all my favorite shows.
++
I love my Tivo, but what I really want is the option to use what I want. Unfortunately, If you want HD, you have no options.
Cable: Tivo with CableCards or Cable Company box
Direct: DirectTv Box
Dish: Dish Box
Cable wins just by a hair. May all media providers die choking in a pool of their own DRM.
Tivo and Directv broke up the love affair a few years ago, and I still have it on my SD RCA and Hughes receivers... they can't just END it if you already have it, it's grandfathered in and you'll have it until you switch out the box.
Er .. yes they can remove it, and no it is not grandfathered.
Dish has just been found guilty of selling you equipment it was illegal to make. Tivo can very much demand their removal from your home.
"Tivo can very much demand their removal from your home."
But it would be very bad business to do so. Most likely they will force Dish to license the technology, but that doesn't mean they necessarily have to use the Tivo system, it just means they will have to write a big fat check.
I think Dish will pay a fine and license the tech. Otherwise, Dish customers like me will be pissed at both Dish and Tivo.
No, they CANNOT order that "they be removed from your home" if you BOUGHT them. You bought a product whose manufacturer was found to have infringed someone's IP; you did NOT buy freakin' stolen goods off the back of a truck. This is a civil case, not a criminal one.
If you're *renting* a DishDVR, then they can cancel your rental and tell you it's time to send the unit back.
Although once they cancel the DVR-compatible service, your bought-and-paid-for unit won't do you much good sitting there on the shelf.
The dish dvr's are the worst. Sure they do what they are suppose to do but, there is no way to organize anything in a logical manner by tv show then episodes or by movie.
Simply put, not enough flexibility.
This does not mean the DiSH DVR goes away.
In fact all DiSH DVRs that are working now, including the oldest ones, were updated automatically last year to remove the infringing technology from them.
Nobody today uses a DiSH Network DVR that uses any of the TiVo IP-infringing technology on it.
Move along, no consumer concerns here.
This means that Dish must turn off all their dvr's or stop the ability of watching one show while another is being recorded. The workaround does not work around using a hard drive or media device which is what the tivo patent also included. The "workaround" is still not viewed as a legal way around the patent. Judges need to take a few more months probably to decide on that.
The only way Dish DVR's will continue to work is if Dish Pays tivo a fairly large licensing fee, which will probably mean an increase in prices for Dish's standard dvr.
Cheryl Crowe V Department of Agriculture?! What a funny catch!
awwww..no more Tivo Deathwatch?
Any word if this will affect the TR-50? http://ces.cnet.com/8300-1_1-67-0.html?keyword=EchoStar+TR-50 Or has that been modified to comply with the TIVO patents? (I haven't read the lawsuit.)
DOWN WITH PATENTS.
They're only stifling innovation and preventing new competitors from entering the market.
Er wait. Hold on, Tivo was the upstart weren't they? And dish jacked their intellectual property and tried to use it for free.
Well, nevermind, I guess it worked like it is supposed to.
Is this really about a patent? What, did TiVo actually patent the idea of a DVR of was Dish's too similar to the TiVo interface?
I haven't used TiVo too much, but I still hate the idea of paying to use a DVR. I've got my DIY DVR working better than any commercial model I've tried. ^I hope I'm not violating the patent law by using TiVo's intellectual property...
I wouldn't retire that death watch yet.
The Comcast rollout is a disaster so far. Tivo is hemoraging subs.
That's why I love my Direct TV DVR. Hehe! Buh-Bye Dish Network fools.
How many HD channels do yo have? 73?
Heh, bye! http://directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPageNR.jsp?assetId=3420014
From everything I've read, all of the current DVR's in use by Dish Network do not infringe on Tivo's patents. That being said, Dish has had many problems of late, I wouldn't be surprised to see a merger between the two tried again. And before you say that would mean no competition, remember that cable is their ultimate competitor, not each other. When they bash anyone, it's almost always the cable companies. At least till recently.
it was denied in the past because there are millions of homes that do not have access to cable and in those locations having only 1 company would deem it a monopoly. The reason the Sat Radio merger is going through is that you are not bound by cable availability and there are very few places where a radio station isn't available. When you also factor in iPods, cell phones, and other sources of music distribution it is obvious to see why the Sat radio merger can go through but TV cannot.
Geez, it would almost make me want to switch to Dish from Direct if they start offering Tivo DVR's.
Maybe if Dish ever catches up in their HD programming I'll consider. The DirecTV DVR has gotten better over the past year, but it still isn't as good as my old Tivo.
I would love to have a dish that worked with Tivo... For all you noobs to the world, Tivo beats Dish, Comcast, TWarner, Cox, DTV all combined. The only bad thing is you have to use your local provider. I would love it if Tivo and Dish ink a deal to have their Tivo with Dish. I would switch in a heartbeat.
I thought the boops were annoying at first now it is like fresh bread from the oven.
TiVo can't beat Cox if they are the ones providing the feed lol
Mythbuntu & MythTV is the way to go if you don't want to pay for cable (I only get OTA HD) or a monthly fee ($20 year for Mythbuntu/Schedule Direct)
Can someone tell me why Tivo's are better? I keep reading these statements, but there isn't any supporting data given. I can't imagine what is there that warrants the additional money every month.
The TiVo is extremely reliable, has lots of features that the generic DVRs don't including:
1. Multi-room-viewing (which we use all the time)
2. The ability to watch downloaded video on your TV via TiVo (which we use regularly)
3. The ability to transfer shows from your TiVo to your PC for watching or burning to DVD (which we use regularly)
4. The ability to remotely schedule recordings (use occasionally)
5. TiVocast automatic content delivery
There are other features we don't use such as the Amazon Unbox movie "rental"
And that doesn't even talk about the core TiVo features that have been around forever such as suggestions, wishlist searching, etc.
As for cost, it sucks that they got rid of the Lifetime Service option, though they do bring it back periodically for special promotions, in any case, I haven't paid TiVo any money since I bought my last TiVo (which was right after they announced the end of lifetime service) But if I had to pay a monthly fee for TiVo I would with no regrets.
I read on another site that Echostar is saying they will appeal to the SCOTUS.
The smart thing to do after they got caught was to make a deal with TiVo, failing that they should have settled after they lost the case, now it looks like Charlie Ergen's near-legendary hubris is keeping them on the dead-end path.
When this finally gets resolved, likely by SCOTUS refusal to hear the case and the eventual ruling that the so-called "workaround" still infringes on TiVo's patents I wouldn't be surprised to see Charlie shutting down the Dish PVRs rather than make a deal with TiVo.
If Charlie really were stupid enough to shut down the PVRs, Dish would hemmorage customers so fast innocent bystanders would drown in the blood.
edit
This is one of the worst patent cases EVER. The time warp patent would apply software bundled with ATI's all in wonder products as well. The patent http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6233389.html
is dated May 15th 2001, applied for via No. 126071 filed on 1998-07-30. I bought my first ATI all-in-wonder in December 1996, which was before TIVO applied for this patent. There is a reason that Tivo went to the 6th district in east texas, they rule positively on almost every crazy patent claim.
Tivo is just posturing on this to keep their stock above $5 and being de-listed. Echostar isn't done apealling, and they can continue selling and servcing DVR's. They also can work around by changing the CODEC used in ther device. The time warp patent specifically states MPEG a dozen or so times.
left this part out:
However, echostar still has to pay the $100 million or so in damages.
The ATI All-In-Wonder did come at the end of 1996, but as far as I know the software did not have time-warp style playback back then. It was more like a digital VCR where you could only watch what you recorded after it was finished recording.
Nope, the very first version I purchased in Dec 96 had a pasue rew and fwd button on the bottom of the tv window, ugly brown box it was. They only worked if you were recording the show or if once you hit the REC button.
Supposedly, the way they have done it, is on the single-tuner units when the unit is recording, the TV output that is doing the recording is not allowed to fast forward or rewind the currently-recording program.
On the dual-tuner units the device acts as if you are using the OTHER tuner. They have this concept of Dual-view and Single-view modes. In Dual-view there are two separate tuners for two separate rooms on one box. In Single-view it uses the "unused" tuner for the recording and the "primary" tuner for live programming.
This means that the the tuner is not doing any recording on the active television you are using, and you can thus watch recorded programming and live programming on the OTHER tuner, technically not violating the patent.
It's cheesy and I'm not sure if it will legally work but that is what Echostar is doing.
Perhaps this cheesy solution gives them leeway for a smaller licensing fee.
You can't buy a DVR today from Echostar that doesn't have two tuners AND two outputs on it, either, and the cost of enabling the second tuner is included in the DVR monthly fee so it's a no-cost option and it technically doesn't violate TiVo's patent anymore, so Echostar says.
Hope that helps.